Sam Fletcher Belgian issue?

[Liamgp]

I presume this is a boot or did they produce legit issues in Belgium? Somehow I think I know the answer before even asking the question but I might just be cynical.

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/SAM-FLETCHER-Id-think-it-over-TOLLIE-Popcorn-NorthErn-Soul-Hear-IT-EX-/161755950048?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item25a967ebe0

[Benji]

Boot

[Liamgp]

And starting at $100. Someone will buy it no doubt.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Paul Capon]

The seller does say ' TOLLIE - RARE Belgian reissue beginning 70''

[Chris L]

I presume this is a boot or did they produce legit issues in Belgium? Somehow I think I know the answer before even asking the question but I might just be cynical.

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/SAM-FLETCHER-Id-think-it-over-TOLLIE-Popcorn-NorthErn-Soul-Hear-IT-EX-/161755950048?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item25a967ebe0

This is a good question. It's about a 50/50 original/boot. Money was paid to Sabam to get it legally released but it was pressed in Belgium with no money going across to the USA.

Sabam doesn't really care too much as long as they get paid.

[Chalky]

100% boot IMO.  

[Chris L]

100% boot IMO.  

Not exactly, Sabam the Belgian licensing arm OK'd the release.

[Chalky]

Not exactly, Sabam the Belgian licensing arm OK'd the release.

I doubt permission was sought and as you said any money paid to who should have received it.  Other boots have also used "official" looking print before.  Any proof Sabam was paid?

[Robbk]

I'd call that a bootleg.  I really doubt that SABAM was paid, and I don't believe they formed a new, Belgian record label, titled. "Tollie", just to release that one record.  Alegitimate existing company that bought the rights would have had their name on the label, EVEN if they released a "lookalike facsimile" (something like the legitimate facsimile Luther Ingram HIB record re-issue).  In addition, I really doubt that a legitimate Belgian issue would have a North-American large centre hole.  Even a facsimile would have a European centre hole (perhaps with punch out capability).  This was clearly booted for the European (and British) mid-tempo and Northern Soul markets, to try to look something like an original US pressing.

[Robbk]

Not exactly, Sabam the Belgian licensing arm OK'd the release.

And bootleggers couldn't just print the letters "A ZIJDE"  AND "SABAM"  on their label to fool potential purchasers?  SABAM could have no way to track down the bootleggers, with no real company name on the record, and hundreds of pressing plants in North America, Britain and Europe, where it might have been pressed.

 

[Tlscapital]

I'd call that a bootleg.  I really doubt that SABAM was paid, and I don't believe they formed a new, Belgian record label, titled. "Tollie", just to release that one record.  Alegitimate existing company that bought the rights would have had their name on the label, EVEN if they released a "lookalike facsimile" (something like the legitimate facsimile Luther Ingram HIB record re-issue).  In addition, I really doubt that a legitimate Belgian issue would have a North-American large centre hole.  Even a facsimile would have a European centre hole (perhaps with punch out capability).  This was clearly booted for the European (and British) mid-tempo and Northern Soul markets, to try to look something like an original US pressing.

I follow you there on the bootleg side. But in the 7T's all Belgian and Holland 45's had those big center holes as most did since the 5T's (less in Holland with more punch-out until the late 6T's). That dreadful looking and sounding bootleg (sounds like a frying pan) was made in pressing plants located in Holland or Belgium like so many bootlegs were made with lookalike or photocopied labels. Very common practice intended for their local scenes; pop-corn in Belgium and Surinamese in Holland... 

[Robbk]

I follow you there on the bootleg side. But in the 7T's all Belgian and Holland 45's had those big center holes as most did since the 5T's (less in Holland with more punch-out until the late 6T's). That dreadful looking and sounding bootleg (sounds like a frying pan) was made in pressing plants located in Holland or Belgium like so many bootlegs were made with lookalike or photocopied labels. Very common practice intended for their local scenes; pop-corn in Belgium and Surinamese in Holland... 

Huh???  I was still buying 45s in Nederland in the early '70s, and I don't remember the US big hole format (other than in Soul bootlegs).  Or am I senile, and just remembering the late '60s?

[Tlscapital]

Huh???  I was still buying 45s in Nederland in the early '70s, and I don't remember the US big hole format (other than in Soul bootlegs).  Or am I senile, and just remembering the late '60s?

... the whole Artone bunch...  and many more...

[Robbk]

I guess that maybe I was thinking of the late '60s.  I really wasn't buying much of anything from the '70s.

[Chris L]

And bootleggers couldn't just print the letters "A ZIJDE"  AND "SABAM"  on their label to fool potential purchasers?  SABAM could have no way to track down the bootleggers, with no real company name on the record, and hundreds of pressing plants in North America, Britain and Europe, where it might have been pressed.

 

I know the person who organised the release he's told me the whole story.

[Robbk]

I know the person who organised the release he's told me the whole story.

Okay.  So permission was given, legally, to issue it in Belgium.  BUT, as no money went back to USA, (all rights-owning parties didn't receive their just compensation), it must be considered a "bootleg".  Did the producer register "Tollie Records" as a company operating in Belgium?  Or register "Tollie Records" as an official operating or trade name?  Tollie Music Publishing was still in operation in USA.  Were Jimmy and Vivian Bracken, or their heirs paid for use of their trademark name?  Perhaps their rights to the label name lapsed after a number of years after their company, Tollie Records folded.  But their music publisher still existed.

[Chris L]

Okay.  So permission was given, legally, to issue it in Belgium.  BUT, as no money went back to USA, (all rights-owning parties didn't receive their just compensation), it must be considered a "bootleg".  Did the producer register "Tollie Records" as a company operating in Belgium?  Or register "Tollie Records" as an official operating or trade name?  Tollie Music Publishing was still in operation in USA.  Were Jimmy and Vivian Bracken, or their heirs paid for use of their trademark name?  Perhaps their rights to the label name lapsed after a number of years after their company, Tollie Records folded.  But their music publisher still existed.

You can't make it black & white, they got permission, paid Sabam, no there never was an official Belgium Tollie label, best to leave it at that.

[Chalky]

You can't make it black & white, they got permission, paid Sabam, no there never was an official Belgium Tollie label, best to leave it at that.

You can prove they paid the dues etc by showing the paperwork, until then this for me is simply another Belgian boot.  There's been Belgian boots before with Sabam on the label.

[Benji]

Huh???  I was still buying 45s in Nederland in the early '70s, and I don't remember the US big hole format (other than in Soul bootlegs).  Or am I senile, and just remembering the late '60s?

All the dutch Tamla-Motown releases from the 60s on the orange label had big holes.

[Benji]

There used to be a loop hole in belgian copyright law. Don't remember the details but it was something like you pay your fee to SABAM and sell your product in Belgium only, then you're fine. That's how the Popcorn guys got away with issuing 100's and 100's of bootleg CDs in the 80s and 90. I guess it applies to the bootleg 45s too.

[Chris L]

You can prove they paid the dues etc by showing the paperwork, until then this for me is simply another Belgian boot.  There's been Belgian boots before with Sabam on the label.

I have hem somewhere Chalky, stamp Paid 2500 Belgian Francs to Sabam, I think I filed them with some old Flemish recipes...................er no.......I wasn't involved it was the 1970s.............. enjoy your weekend..............

[Chalky]

I have hem somewhere Chalky, stamp Paid 2500 Belgian Francs to Sabam, I think I filed them with some old Flemish recipes...................er no.......I wasn't involved it was the 1970s.............. enjoy your weekend..............

Sounds like Sabam are one dodgy organisation with as much interest in making sure the artist gets his dues as the bootleggers. I would have thought that whatever they pay doesn't give them the right to use the label name.

[Chris L]

Sounds like Sabam are one dodgy organisation with as much interest in making sure the artist gets his dues as the bootleggers. I would have thought that whatever they pay doesn't give them the right to use the label name.

Correct (or were) cleaned up their act in in 1990s.

[Pete S]

I was reading an old copy of Black Music recently, late 1974, and in the wants section was someone from Belgium actually asking for the Sam Fletcher - that was many years before I even heard of it

[Chris L]

I was reading an old copy of Black Music recently, late 1974, and in the wants section was someone from Belgium actually asking for the Sam Fletcher - that was many years before I even heard of it

Pete, it's THE Frank Wilson of the Belgian Popcorn scene. 1st played there about 1973 by one of the big Popcorn DJs Gilbert Govaert. Is there a name with that "wants" ?

Chris

[Pete S]

There would have been Chris but I'll never find that issue again now without going through 30 of them!