'northern' Soul, America, 1964 - 1970

[Guest soul_hull]

we've all seen the 1960's images of billboards outside theatres - showing soul artists playing that night and thought 'lucky sods' wish i had a time machine.

we all know that was a large radio circuit, and many songs had a larger circulation of DJ copies than issue copies because of this.

but what of the nightclubs at the time? what were the black guys and gals doing? where were they going circa 1966 when they were not in a theatre or listening to the radio?? surely there were nightclubs? dancehalls? what were the dance styles?

it's often bugged me this - as our scene tends to have a documented history - but the scene/genre in its original environment doesn't.

Can anyone cast any light on this? What were the major nightclubs/dancehalls in, say chicago and detroit then?

[Guest Kevin J]

we once had an older black fella come to one of our nights. a young lady, one of our regulars, asked him if he would dance with her and his response was "you young folk dont dance like we used to." he was a little shy to dance ... it was erm cute.

anyhow, i think Jo Wallace and i had an email conversation about photos of US club DJs from the period. maybe she has more info. i think it was Jo.

i imagine it was something along the lines of a sock hop, but i could be wrong.

[Dave Moore]

we once had an older black fella come to one of our nights. a young lady, one of our regulars, asked him if he would dance with her and his response was "you young folk dont dance like we used to." he was a little shy to dance ... it was erm cute.

anyhow, i think Jo Wallace and i had an email conversation about photos of US club DJs from the period. maybe she has more info. i think it was Jo.

i imagine it was something along the lines of a sock hop, but i could be wrong.

By coincidence this is a subject that ties in with a project I'm currently researching:

The era mentioned is a veritable goldmine of events and gigs. There are distinct differences between the teenage culture of the US and the UK at the time, these mainly being:

1. The artists were performing nationwide EVERY night in the US, whereas in UK they weren't as accessible on such a regular basis. Therefore you could pop along to your local dancehall/showbar/nightclubin most major US cities and actually see the new acts that would eventually become legendary.

2. The wave of AM DJs in the US were a powrful influence during the era. Much more so than in UK. This led to DJs promoting their own "Revues" which usually consisted of the DJ acting as MC for a number of groups/acts on tour. The most famous of these is obviously The MotorTown Revues of Motown. The AM DJs were the catalyst for shows in the US, not the record companies/radio stations as was the case in UK.

3. I have US friends who were music fans during the era (and still are), and they are adamant that the live music was the draw. Week in week out. Imagine paying $1.50 to pop along to the local university to see Wilson Pickett, The Temptations, Contours, Shirelles, Maxine Brown, Chuck Jackson etc etc.

4. Many DJs also played on small local stations out of Record Stores. Set up a booth and Hey Presto! they were broadcasting to the local area building up interest in their upcoming shows.

A couple of books on the subject I got recommended were:

Rockin' Down The Dial - David Carson

The Pied Pipers of Rock n Roll - Wes Smith

The likes of Jocko Henderson, Rufus Thomas, Frankie Crocker, Queenie Steinberg were only the tip of the iceberg.

I always find it interesting when DJs become as big in "personality" terms as the music they play.(in some cases bigger!). Frustrated musicians/singers maybe?

Good subject for a thread. Thanks for posting it, maybe other info will fall out of it.

Regards,

Dave

www.theressthatbeat.com

www.hitsvillesoulclub.com

Edited September 7, 2006 by Dave Moore

[soulfulsaint]

Detroit Public Library has a good special collection. Remember seeing a photo book which has great stuff from The Twenty Grand and clubs like that. Seems like there were so many live performers and amateur nights that the record was never king the way it is in the UK nortern scene.

The Otis Redding Story by Scott Freeman, a Georgia based writer has some good chapters on the local Macon Georgia club scene that Otis emerged from. On a related note there ia also a gerat book on the life of the falsely convicted boxer Ruben Hurricane Carter by James Hirsch. The armed robbery and murder that he was accused of took place in the New Jersey club-scene of mid '60s. As you read the book you imagine George Blackwell on stage.

I'm at 'Hitsville' Dave so can bore you to death there. Stuart

[Guest soul_hull]

i secretly suspected that it may have been a theatre (and therefore live) scene, and a live-acts-in-nightclubs scene, and whilst i already suspected this, somewhere deep inside i'm kinda gutted that there wasn't a network of little underground clubs/dancehalls, where teenagers hung out and did some crazy-assed dancing to these records. maybe i'm just a sentimentalist....(or maybe just a mentalist!)

there was clearly* a market for these records - there are 1000s and 1000s of them - but maybe it's like the house/dance scene now in that there are literally hundreds of tunes coming out every week - though i feel that the kind of soul we like (me anyway) was aimed at the charts, not at experimentation eg jazz, or at being 'underground' eg uk dance stuff of today.

Thanks for the info guys.

* clearly not a market for some rarities!

[Guest musicden786]

we've all seen the 1960's images of billboards outside theatres - showing soul artists playing that night and thought 'lucky sods' wish i had a time machine.

we all know that was a large radio circuit, and many songs had a larger circulation of DJ copies than issue copies because of this.

but what of the nightclubs at the time? what were the black guys and gals doing? where were they going circa 1966 when they were not in a theatre or listening to the radio?? surely there were nightclubs? dancehalls? what were the dance styles?

it's often bugged me this - as our scene tends to have a documented history - but the scene/genre in its original environment doesn't.

Can anyone cast any light on this? What were the major nightclubs/dancehalls in, say chicago and detroit then?

Edited September 13, 2006 by musicden786

[Dave Moore]

Detroit Public Library has a good special collection. Remember seeing a photo book which has great stuff from The Twenty Grand and clubs like that. Seems like there were so many live performers and amateur nights that the record was never king the way it is in the UK nortern scene.

The Otis Redding Story by Scott Freeman, a Georgia based writer has some good chapters on the local Macon Georgia club scene that Otis emerged from. On a related note there ia also a gerat book on the life of the falsely convicted boxer Ruben Hurricane Carter by James Hirsch. The armed robbery and murder that he was accused of took place in the New Jersey club-scene of mid '60s. As you read the book you imagine George Blackwell on stage.

I'm at 'Hitsville' Dave so can bore you to death there. Stuart

Feel free Mate, you'll be among among fellow anoraks.

I saw the film about "The Hurricaine". Man......don't know how I'd cope!

Looking forward to a few scoops and a some chit cat next week. See you then

Regards,

Dave

www.theresthatbeat.com

www.hitsvillesoulclub.com

[Guest Bogue]

I always find it interesting when DJs become as big in "personality" terms as the music they play.(in some cases bigger!). Frustrated musicians/singers maybe?

I reckon you should put that up as a seperate topic Dave, be intresting to hear if that is the case ?

Though i would guess all of us fans become that when we listen to any music, just the same as football fans would love to be footballers.

[Guest musicden786]

I always find it interesting when DJs become as big in "personality" terms as the music they play.(in some cases bigger!). Frustrated musicians/singers maybe?

I reckon you should put that up as a seperate topic Dave, be intresting to hear if that is the case ?

Though i would guess all of us fans become that when we listen to any music, just the same as football fans would love to be footballers.

Edited September 13, 2006 by musicden786

[Guest soul_hull]

Good point. Would make interesting reading.

On the dancing question. There was a venue about 25miles from Detroit called the Walled Lake Casino. The main DJ was Lee Allan. Open seven days a week, big dance floor, always full of dancers. Playing, Rock and Roll, Soul and Motown.

Very interesting place, part of a theme park.

Burnt down December 1965.

I wonder if anybody on here went to this venue?

Denis.

Is that where teenagers of the day would have gone? that's kinda what i'm interested in. Adults, i guess, would have gone theatres to see 'motown revue' or similar, and adults, i'm guessing again, would have been the ones going to the nightclubs to see live acts too. so what would yer average 15-18 yr old teenager who likes soul do in 1965/6/7/8 in detroit/chicago/NY if they wanted to go for a dance? maybe it was, as suggested, just a different scene with live acts.......??

[soulsalmon]

I always find it interesting when DJs become as big in "personality" terms as the music they play.(in some cases bigger!). Frustrated musicians/singers maybe? Jimmy Bishop? wrote ,producedand sang on his own arctic label,one of the crap things on the label,ego overides talent

I reckon you should put that up as a seperate topic Dave, be intresting to hear if that is the case ?

Though i would guess all of us fans become that when we listen to any music, just the same as football fans would love to be footballers.

[Sweeney]

I know this doesn't add much to the debate, but isn't this the coolest line-up for a gig you've ever seen? I'm starting to build my time machine now!

Plus, it makes you think about how much cross-pollination of ideas, musical styles between different cities etc. must have happened. Probably much more than we know about.

Excuse the quality, it's taken from the front cover of Dave McCadden's legendary Soul Galore Issue 6.

Edited September 8, 2006 by sweeney

[Tomangoes]

What a flyer. Can you imagine being there knowing what you know now. Any body who went MUST have danced.

'I cant see your love' is as good a definitive Northern Soul sound as any from a big group, so there must have been fans who realised all this uptempo stuff stood out, especially if Terrible Tom followed up with 'made for each other'.

Its a massive part of the jigsaw to know what the local youth did at gigs like this.

Ed

[Guest musicden786]

Is that where teenagers of the day would have gone? that's kinda what i'm interested in. Adults, i guess, would have gone theatres to see 'motown revue' or similar, and adults, i'm guessing again, would have been the ones going to the nightclubs to see live acts too. so what would yer average 15-18 yr old teenager who likes soul do in 1965/6/7/8 in detroit/chicago/NY if they wanted to go for a dance? maybe it was, as suggested, just a different scene with live acts.......??

Edited September 13, 2006 by musicden786