Another Repro

[pow wow mik]

They exist in every collector group - comics fans buying titles they don't like for a complete run is exactly the same.

That's a different conversation, but even then, they can either buy the expensive original or the cheaper repro (depending on personal preference). They still want the thing, even if it's not exactly for the music.

Collecting records because you want them is great, if people want to buy the expensive original vinyl, go ahead. If people want to rummage through the vaults of long-gone record companies to find rarities for their own collections or to bring us high-quality repros of lost stuff, that's great too. I understand exactly where you're coming from.

The part I don't get is that once these tracks are available on a cheaper repro, why insist that a DJ has to play the original vinyl? If you want to only play original vinyl in your home, or your own DJ sets (those who DJ), that's fine - but it's not up to us to decide what others do.

The other part I don't get is the worry about repros devaluing the originals. If you've paid X amount for a record, the resale value is and always will be "what someone else is willing to pay for it". The idea of amassing a record collection based solely on how much money it's worth for somebody else seems strange to me - I buy music because I like it, not because I'll be able to sell it on later at a profit. If you weren't planning on selling it on and are just annoyed that a cheaper version is now available, I get how that would be frustrating. But if you've paid a lot for the original, you paid for the song plus the experience of hunting for it and the pleasure of finding it - and though you'll never get that from a repro, those that might want to buy the original from you will also want that experience and be willing to pay for it accordingly. The value to them won't drop as much, because they don't want the easy experience of buying the repro/CD/MP3 - they want the adventure.

I think maybe you dont get it because you're focussing only on a small detail - whether a single record played at a do is original or not, which of course is not the point.

the point isnt that we insist that djs play originals - dont remember ever doing such a thing - but that we only want to hear djs who play originals. Because if they have the originals, it is likely that they are a collector and therefore more likely to have something interesting to play than someone who gets their spins spoon fed them by juno's release schedule. It's not fail-safe, but it works, and as far as I know, we're not missing out on a great deal by setting this standard.

simply ensures, or attempts to ensure, that the djs are those most qualified to be doing it. And that is all in order to hear new stuff.

I concede, if your club plays only tried and tested classics, then yes, format is irrelevent.

As for devaluing originals: I guess eventually total overkill can kill interest in anything but the value of these records is of absolutely no interest to me, shame that the whole thing be over run by chancers at one end and investors at the other.

Edited March 8, 2015 by pow wow mik

[Ernie Andrews]

They exist in every collector group - comics fans buying titles they don't like for a complete run is exactly the same.

 

That's a different conversation, but even then, they can either buy the expensive original or the cheaper repro (depending on personal preference). They still want the thing, even if it's not exactly for the music.

 

 

Collecting records because you want them is great, if people want to buy the expensive original vinyl, go ahead. If people want to rummage through the vaults of long-gone record companies to find rarities for their own collections or to bring us high-quality repros of lost stuff, that's great too. I understand exactly where you're coming from.

 

The part I don't get is that once these tracks are available on a cheaper repro, why insist that a DJ has to play the original vinyl? If you want to only play original vinyl in your home, or your own DJ sets (those who DJ), that's fine - but it's not up to us to decide what others do.

 

The other part I don't get is the worry about repros devaluing the originals. If you've paid X amount for a record, the resale value is and always will be "what someone else is willing to pay for it". The idea of amassing a record collection based solely on how much money it's worth for somebody else seems strange to me - I buy music because I like it, not because I'll be able to sell it on later at a profit. If you weren't planning on selling it on and are just annoyed that a cheaper version is now available, I get how that would be frustrating. But if you've paid a lot for the original, you paid for the song plus the experience of hunting for it and the pleasure of finding it - and though you'll never get that from a repro, those that might want to buy the original from you will also want that experience and be willing to pay for it accordingly. The value to them won't drop as much, because they don't want the easy experience of buying the repro/CD/MP3 - they want the adventure.

So are you saying that dealers pass on records for the same price as they bought them?  That an antique collector never thinks about the future worth of a collectable? Wake up and smell the coffee. Hello Pete Smith- Just hand me those records you just bought for the same price please! JM if you reading this can I have all those records you got years ago for roughly the same price as this person thinks vynil is only bought for listening to and is not a product that can go up in value - so can I have some of your please for a £1 a shot     :D  

[Guest nickw]

 

Edited March 8, 2015 by nickw

[Guest nickw]

But this is what I don't get Mrs M. The playing of the original vinyl is indeed to be applauded. Had these original DJs and diggers not discovered the original vinyl copies then there would probably be zero demand for the recording. So, all well and good. The downside is that the artist, the owner of the recording and the owner of the song get nothing from this activity as it's generally 20-40 years later.

 

However, if some enterprising company picks up the rights or the original owner decides to reissue the recordings, then the resultant revenues are going to the appropriate people in some way or other, which is good right? Most of these records lost money in the first place, so why shouldn't the copyright owners, songwriters and artists see some revenues from the re-issues? 

 

Eddie Parker sold more records last year then in his entire career to date. I think it's a good thing that these acts are getting the level of attention now, which they never enjoyed 40-50 years ago, although it's a shame that it's probably too little, too late.

 

I think Secret Stash are doing a fantastic job and are doing exactly what they should be doing in making these records available again, including unreleased stuff which has been in the can for 50 years. What could possibly be wrong with that? 

 

Ian D 

Maybe the most complete, simplified posting on this subject. Quite honestly I fail to understand why some people think there is a problem with reissues (NOT boots) to be discussed to be honest

[Godzilla]

Fair point, I do get that, but I dont have much respect for that kind of dj either, sounds like vacuous nathan barley stuff to me - and I know cos I've dabbled in them circles. And none of it explains the vinyl bit - they should save money and petro-chemicals by playing mp3s instead, except I guess that vinyl looks cooler if you're a dj culture vulture type.

 

I thought you'd get it but also guessed that you probably wouldn't find yourself in agreement or sympathetic, to be honest

 

However, why should they play MP3s when they've been playing vinyl as long as long as we have.

I'm not talking about vacuous Nathan Barley types either (they wouldn't be my pals otherwise), the guys I know tend to be genuine music fans, albeit not obsessed with chasing OG Northern/Mod/R&B 45s. One particular mate has a humungous jazz collection and a deep knowledge that goes with it. He's got all kinds of rare originals but will buy a reissue LP if something's out of his price range.

 

To accuse him of lacking passion when it's the music rather than the OG status that drives him seems to miss the point somewhat. And who am I to begrudge him if he decides to buy a reissue soul 45 that works well in his set. Or to tell him that he should start chasing MP3s of all his vinyl for that matter!

 

And you still managed to misinterpret the cat analogy

[Pete S]

expect a letter from my solicitor. :-)

 

[Guest Russell H]

So are you saying that dealers pass on records for the same price as they bought them?  That an antique collector never thinks about the future worth of a collectable? Wake up and smell the coffee. Hello Pete Smith- Just hand me those records you just bought for the same price please! JM if you reading this can I have all those records you got years ago for roughly the same price as this person thinks vynil is only bought for listening to and is not a product that can go up in value - so can I have some of your please for a £1 a shot     :D  

 

That's not what I said at all. 

 

The value of any collectible will always go up and down, and is only ever going to be "what someone is willing to pay for it".

 

Dealers and collectors (though they have a large crossover) are not always the same people. Of course some collectors think about the future worth of a collectible, but unless they're planning on selling it, the value is effectively both nothing at all and several thousand pounds. It's Schrodinger's 7" (which I believe was on OKeh...)

 

My point that if you're buying it just for the song it contains, then the value to anyone else doesn't matter still stands.

 

I think maybe you dont get it because you're focussing only on a small detail - whether a single record played at a do is original or not, which of course is not the point.

the point isnt that we insist that djs play originals - dont remember ever doing such a thing - but that we only want to hear djs who play originals. Because if they have the originals, it is likely that they are a collector and therefore more likely to have something interesting to play than someone who gets their spins spoon fed them by juno's release schedule. It's not fail-safe, but it works, and as far as I know, we're not missing out on a great deal by setting this standard.

simply ensures, or attempts to ensure, that the djs are those most qualified to be doing it. And that is all in order to hear new stuff.

 

Thank you, that makes a lot more sense to me now (though I guess a great song that you don't know could just as easily come from a repro, but that's confusing the issue and I don't want to do that now I finally understand it)

 

I concede, if your club plays only tried and tested classics, then yes, format is irrelevent.

 

I'm a relative newcomer to the scene proper, having come through NS rooms at scooter rallies and the like, and a love of sixties Motown (see my avatar). A lot of the tried and tested classics are still effectively newies to me, and of course things that were thought of as tired and overplayed ten, twenty years ago can eventually make a comeback as "new oldies".

[Reg Scott]

Not according to the prices regulary achived on E-bay, Manship's auctions etc, it's the more played to death has been records from the past that seem to reach top dollar.

I always thought you bought records first and formost for your own personel enjoyment not to enhance your ego and kudos, could this be the real reason for the initail vitriol on this thread ?

Dave

 

Not vitriol Dave merely an opinion.. I'm not in to collecting for the kudos - I can't afford the 45's that are required to gain it :-) I collect the records for the music yes, but also to hold a historical physical artefact.

 

You do your thing with Soul Junction but nobody is going to be fooled by your output - they are clearly re-issued. The further argument that people re-issue correctly [legally] I take as given with Secret Stash, Kent, yourself etc and where 'new'/'unissued' material is brought to the public it should be commended.

 

However, why the need for a replica release of one of the more difficult M-PAC releases? It's this tendency to create replica style re-issues I disagree with - for authenticity purposes not for any worry about valuing/devaluing the 'original'.

[Reg Scott]

I think the thread is meandering into two separate subjects isn't it?

 

There are the bootleg reissues  that most on here would condemn.  

 

But the Secret Stash set up is a different kettle of fish surely? The only reason the thread was started was that a poster thought it devalued some originals.

 

From my perspective:

 

Creators of the music get a few $$s. (Nice one!)

 

We get to hear a few new records (and buy em if we wish). (Nice one!)

 

All done with integrity. (Nice One!)

 

What's not to like?  If you're main worry is that that disc you bought for pots of dosh and previously cherished has now lost some of it's lustre because it's been reissued, then surely you bought it for the wrong reason?

 

Regards,

 

Dave

Not quite Dave but I agree the thread has been extended far too widely - it was specifically about the proliferation of look-a-like re-issues done legally - I simply don't understand the necessity to replicate the look of the original 45 and the potential issues that may arise by reputable companies hence my surprise at the Secret Stach bonus 45 in this case. Absolutely nothing to do with value.

 

Kegsy seemed to miss the point of the original post, or maybe it wasn't clear enough, and turn it in to a hugely diverse discussion of bootlegs, re-issues in general, profiteering, duty to the artist, duty to the public, the work of companies bringing new and unissued material etc ad infinitum. Inevitably, everybody has picked up on there specific gripe area and run with it..

[Dave Moore]

Not quite Dave but I agree the thread has been extended far too widely - it was specifically about the proliferation of look-a-like re-issues done legally - I simply don't understand the necessity to replicate the look of the original 45 and the potential issues that may arise by reputable companies hence my surprise at the Secret Stach bonus 45 in this case. Absolutely nothing to do with value.

 

Kegsy seemed to miss the point of the original post, or maybe it wasn't clear enough, and turn it in to a hugely diverse discussion of bootlegs, re-issues in general, profiteering, duty to the artist, duty to the public, the work of companies bringing new and unissued material etc ad infinitum. Inevitably, everybody has picked up on there specific gripe area and run with it..

 

Hi Reg,

 

Yep I agree, I think a few people went down the 'wrong road' from your original post. Hopefully people now appreciate the point you were making.

 

Regards,

 

Dave

[Kegsy]

Not quite Dave but I agree the thread has been extended far too widely - it was specifically about the proliferation of look-a-like re-issues done legally - I simply don't understand the necessity to replicate the look of the original 45 and the potential issues that may arise by reputable companies hence my surprise at the Secret Stach bonus 45 in this case. Absolutely nothing to do with value.

 

Kegsy seemed to miss the point of the original post, or maybe it wasn't clear enough, and turn it in to a hugely diverse discussion of bootlegs, re-issues in general, profiteering, duty to the artist, duty to the public, the work of companies bringing new and unissued material etc ad infinitum. Inevitably, everybody has picked up on there specific gripe area and run with it..

 

 

I didn't reply to the original post.

I replied to others who seemed to be more

concerned with their precious originals being devalued, rather than the wider issue

of spreading the music. Plus a couple of points about a record perceived value and actual rarity.

I can see your point about look-a-likes being passed off as originals

by unscrupulous dealers. But as somebody has said fakes and snides are part of all

collecting arenas.

 

As for the point raised about DJ's never playing re-issues or pressings along side

originals its total nonsense, it happened in mid week venues as far back as I can remember

and I've been here since 1971.

Edited March 9, 2015 by Kegsy

[Ady Croasdell]

 

 

By how much did Ady Croasdale's release of Buddy Smith devalue the U.S. originals ?

A very minor point but we've never released a Buddy Smith 45 or CD track. Though he was one half of Chico & Buddy which we have released. And look here Kecksy it's Croasdell not Croasdale!

[Pete S]

A very minor point but we've never released a Buddy Smith 45 or CD track. Though he was one half of Chico & Buddy which we have released. And look here Kecksy it's Croasdell not Croasdale!

 

I think Buddy Smith came out on a Goldmine Connoisseurs 45.

[Md Records]

In recent years have there been any records that have gone down in value because of a reissue - Legal or otherwise - I can't think of one........................anyone??

 

Des

[Kegsy]

A very minor point but we've never released a Buddy Smith 45 or CD track. Though he was one half of Chico & Buddy which we have released. And look here Kecksy it's Croasdell not Croasdale!

 

 

I think Buddy Smith came out on a Goldmine Connoisseurs 45.

 

Sorry I'll stick to Horace in future as I can spell that.

I stand corrected on both points, but I think my point about value still stands.

[Mark Howell]

for the record it's not an easy way to make money

Would appear that for some it is.

 

I had to politely ask a random seller to remove his sales of a lookalike off an OVO events page that we run. See below the messages. Mine are blue, his are grey.

 

This chap appears to make money, and genuinely not give a monkeys who cares.

 

Sells on Facebook. I have removed his name, but many of you will know him I'm sure.

[Roual Galloway]

Would appear that for some it is.

 

I had to politely ask a random seller to remove his sales of a lookalike off an OVO events page that we run. See below the messages. Mine are blue, his are grey.

 

This chap appears to make money, and genuinely not give a monkeys who cares.

 

Sells on Facebook. I have removed his name, but many of you will know him I'm sure.

I was referencing the previous comments on labels such as Outta Sight, Secret Stash, Kent, etc rather than bootleggers. 

[Kegsy]

I was referencing the previous comments on labels such as Outta Sight, Secret Stash, Kent, etc rather than bootleggers. 

 

It would appear that appear that some don't care whether its legit issues/re-issues or bootlegs,

as long as their originals don't lose any value. they simply don't want any more copies on

the market.

Edited March 9, 2015 by Kegsy

[Pete S]

Would appear that for some it is.

 

I had to politely ask a random seller to remove his sales of a lookalike off an OVO events page that we run. See below the messages. Mine are blue, his are grey.

 

This chap appears to make money, and genuinely not give a monkeys who cares.

 

Sells on Facebook. I have removed his name, but many of you will know him I'm sure.

 

I have no idea who it is but when you join a group, you agree to abide by the rules, and there's no need for a response like that to a polite message.  I did a mixed list on OVO Sales, half original, half pressings, I was asked if I could remove the pressings, so I did, no big deal..

[Dean Rudland]

Flaw in your argument is that, in the youth of anyone over 40, vinyl will have been the normal format to buy music on, so re-issues and boots were excusable because necesary, even for home use . Now, the only possible reason for them is to dj with, pretending to be a real collector. I'm sure that this was always a reason for their existence, but now its the only reason.

But Mik the flaw in your argument is that not everyone who is buying these records is DJing them.

We've just sold about a 1000 Alice Clark's, there surely aren't a 1000 DJs playing them - i doubt there are a 1000 old soul DJs in the world.

Just as you insist the only way to discover things that no-one else plays is to play original vinyl, some people just like buying their music on vinyl be it a 7inch or 12 inch.

Edited March 9, 2015 by Dean Rudland

[Cck]

do any of these things ever sound nearly as good as the originals?  in my experience i've always preferred the production process of an original disc.  i know this doesn't address the real issues here, but i'm beyond worrying if someone is gonna DJ a Sag War Fare that sounds like it was mastered -10 dbs

[Quinvy]

do any of these things ever sound nearly as good as the originals?  in my experience i've always preferred the production process of an original disc.  i know this doesn't address the real issues here, but i'm beyond worrying if someone is gonna DJ a Sag War Fare that sounds like it was mastered -10 dbs

I have only ever bought a couple to record for home use, but the sound quality was so poor I couldn't listen to them. Even the Soul City one I bought, I didn't like the sound so didn't record it.

[Pete S]

I have only ever bought a couple to record for home use, but the sound quality was so poor I couldn't listen to them. Even the Soul City one I bought, I didn't like the sound so didn't record it.

 

Not surprised, I think they were all done off 45's. Walter & Admirations was terrible.

[Quinvy]

Not surprised, I think they were all done off 45's. Walter & Admirations was terrible.

That's the one I bought Pete.

[Pete S]

That's the one I bought Pete.

 

Even the speed is wrong at the start!

[Quinvy]

Even the speed is wrong at the start!

Luckily I bagged a proper one on ebay shortly after, so result. 

[Guest Mrs M]

I'm just popping on to make a humble apology to Secret Stash. In my own naivety I categorised them in the same 'box' of your greedy bootleggers without realising the level of unissued stuff they have brought to the table. Sorry guys x

[Little-stevie]

And now the end of the line.. The new advert for Greggs is using a northern soul tune, using a big northern classic, this will get a re- press now for sure.. It's time to hide in a cave..

[Winsford Soul]

And now the end of the line.. The new advert for Greggs is using a northern soul tune, using a big northern classic, this will get a re- press now for sure.. It's time to hide in a cave..

Stevie. Is it Butch Baker with it been Greggs

Steve

[Little-stevie]

Its gonna be on yer tv very soon Steve, don't want to spoil it for you...

[Guest GeoffB]

 

"You don't the music" - A random bootlegger.

That's it guys, funs over. They're on to us! They know we "don't the music".

 

What a tosser, ayh.

Edited April 1, 2015 by GeoffB

[Jordirip]

And who is that friendly fella then Geoff ?