Another Repro

[Chalky]

I've noticed Secret Stash appear to have suffered from the bootleggers.

 

The Valdons "Stop, Wait A Minute" is now available on a yellow repress (SS original press is Yellow, and their second press is Gold). There now appears to be a further repress. Yellow label, but nothing like the first two ...

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/351330186428

 

I assume it's a boot, as I can't see Secret Stash repressing it yet again, when they still have have Gold copies for sale.

 

Cheers

Mick

Definitely different as the credits and recorded at are missing.  More than 10 available as well....

[Guest]

I normally collect originals, but I have bought some of these look-a-likes. 

 

I don't like them much. They don't have the same kudos and magic as originals for me.

 

I would rather have a cheap original than a monster tune look-a-like!  but then again I don't DJ!

[Guest Mrs M]

Unfortunately Chalky I've never come across Secret Stash. I guess if they have been sat on the tapes for 'X' amount of time, as someone stated earlier then would having the tapes give them the legal rights anyway? PS Hope my silly sarcasm didn't offend anyone. It wasn't intended and was said in fun...

[Scotters]

Me, I'm eternally grateful for companies like Kent, Numero, Soul junction, Secret Stash and others as this scene would be poorer if they hadn't put the time and effort in to bring us some simply superb soul music and the scene is a better place for some of it.

Absolutely.....and not forgetting the unbelievable range and depth of stories, insights to artists, their lives, what drove them, photos, label scans etc. I think the booklets in these Secret Stash double LPs and in the Kent + other compilations are amazing, worth the asking price alone. I've waited till these have hit UK dealers before buying them so haven't seen the limited 45s with each one so far. Really looking forward to the rest of them though.

[Guest Mrs M]

Here we go again, its amazing how in less than 12 months the Secret Stash guys have gone from hero's with the unisssued Ringleaders and Sharpees 45's to zero's with their current releases. Only last week the great unwashed of Soul Source were hailing Ady Croasdell as the greatest discover of unissued northern with a potential vocal version of Tyler & Davis's "Hold On Help Is On The Way" and this week your giving the Secret Stash guy's a kicking for doing exactly the same, come on double standards or what ! The secret tash guys have spent a lot of hardwork and their own money, buying the mastertapes etc from the family to produce a great product included the unearthing of circa 50 previously unissued tracks thus far !

Thet ought to be applauded not lambasted, for preserving the history and legacy of these great small independent black Chicago ladels. There's one thing you lot need to remember, no matter how many thousands of pounds you spend on a record you only ever own the carrier not the music, The ownership of the music remains with either the label owners/producers/artists or the person/s to whom they ma have sold the rights on to at a latter date and it is theirs to do what they see fit with period.

Dave

So by buying the rights to legally own and release unissued tracks based on hard work and passion for soul music, my question now asks what then gives someone the authority or reason to go one step further and put out copies of records that have been known over 30/40 years, same rarities that are legitimately owned through others passion, hard work and money. ??

[Ian Dewhirst]

So by buying the rights to legally own and release unissued tracks based on hard work and passion for soul music, my question now asks what then gives someone the authority or reason to go one step further and put out copies of records that have been known over 30/40 years, same rarities that are legitimately owned through others passion, hard work and money. ??

 

If they own the recordings, then they're legally entitled to do what they want with them. As stated earlier, no music buyer owns the music, just the carrier in whatever format. If some people want to own an expensive original that's fine and if some people want to own a legal re-press from 50 years later, then that's fine too. I don't understand what the problem is?

 

Ian D 

[Guest Gogs]

I will admit than when i was a very young soulie i bought loads of bootlegs, but quite a few years ago i gave all of these away to a local charity shop. I never dj-ed with them but now that i do occasionally dj i would not put 1 of these on the turntable.

Edited March 8, 2015 by Gogs

[Guest Mrs M]

If they own the recordings, then they're legally entitled to do what they want with them. As stated earlier, no music buyer owns the music, just the carrier in whatever format. If some people want to own an expensive original that's fine and if some people want to own a legal re-press from 50 years later, then that's fine too. I don't understand what the problem is?

Ian D

Every person has the right to freedom of choice Ian as you rightfully point out same as every person has the right to an opinion and freedom of speech. I stand by what I have always respected and admired in the importance of original vinyl being played out and the recognition that it carries for the artists who we adore. That's me..

[Guest Gogs]

Every person has the right to freedom of choice Ian as you rightfully point out same as every person has the right to an opinion and freedom of speech. I stand by what I have always respected and admired in the importance of original vinyl being played out and the recognition that it carries for the artists who we adore. That's me..

I do appreciate what Ian is saying. that the artists or whoever was involved with the original is now getting the royalties and/or recognition that they deserve , but personally i would not buy 1.

[Guest turntableterra]

Is he paying onto the people who wrote and published these great records? of course he is... Personally I think he's doing a great job over there, great set of classic Chicago labels, and hes done it right..

 

Secret stash as far as I'm aware is not a bootlegger label, I love their releases... especially the LP comps...

 

Mal

spot on mal, I have spoken to will and these guys are trying to bring un heard versions and tunes in our great music to us in a great package. there are some great releases. stop wait a minute girl by the valdons and the khem dahg by the detrobe dance band. for a start

[Chalky]

So by buying the rights to legally own and release unissued tracks based on hard work and passion for soul music, my question now asks what then gives someone the authority or reason to go one step further and put out copies of records that have been known over 30/40 years, same rarities that are legitimately owned through others passion, hard work and money. ??

 

But this is what Ace/Kent do Julie so I don't really understand the argument?  And a brilliant job they do as well.  Secret Stash are no different to other companies releasing old masters.  Nobody owns a record just because they have discovered it, yes credit they deserve but at the end of the day those that do own the rights get nothing from a DJ playing a record on this scene.

Edited March 8, 2015 by chalky

[Chalky]

I do appreciate what Ian is saying. that the artists or whoever was involved with the original is now getting the royalties and/or recognition that they deserve , but personally i would not buy 1.

 

Why not?  You are missing out on some great unreleased material not to mention a superb reproduction of a great Chicago label(s).  Do you not buy Kent or any other company that does just this?

[Shinehead]

As long as these releases are legit which they are I cannot see a problem and more to the point they are doing soul music lovers a great service by releasing unissued material from a legendary label which I and many others want to hear.

[Kjw]

I'm all for legitimate releases of material that was previously unavailable but I can't see the point of companies like Outta Sight churning out look-a-like re-issues of things like Maurice Williams, Saxie Russell, Adam's Apples etc - all of which have been bootlegged or re-issued in the past

 

Well I guess I can see it from their point of view - easy way to make money

[Kegsy]

I'm all for legitimate releases of material that was previously unavailable but I can't see the point of companies like Outta Sight churning out look-a-like re-issues of things like Maurice Williams, Saxie Russell, Adam's Apples etc - all of which have been bootlegged or re-issued in the past

 

Well I guess I can see it from their point of view - easy way to make money

 

Only if there is a demand for them and people buy them !.

 

What gets me with these type of threads is the blatant double standards.

Can even the most ardent of OVO "campaigners" truthfully say they have NEVER bought a

legit re-issue or God forbid a bootleg ?. I doubt it, just get over it, some people just want the music and

don't give a toss what label its on.

You can look down on them all you want but it won't make the slightest difference.

Just stick to secretly polishing your precious seven inchers.     

Edited March 8, 2015 by Kegsy

[Kjw]

Only if there is a demand for them and people buy them !.

 

What gets me with these type of threads is the blatant double standards.

Can even the most ardent of OVO "campaigners" truthfully say they have NEVER bought a

legit re-issue or God forbid a bootleg ?. I doubt it, just get over it, some people just want the music and

don't give a toss what label its on.

You can look down on them all you want but it won't make the slightest difference.

Just stick to secretly polishing your precious seven inchers.     

 

Obviously someone is buying them or they would have stopped after the first few releases

 

I imagine you're right about most people having bought a bootleg in the past but for the majority of collectors it would have been a long time ago and I doubt they buy them now

 

I think you may win your argument on some other forum such as Facebook but as this is a Rare & Northern Soul Forum I would guess you are in the minority on here

[Kegsy]

Obviously someone is buying them or they would have stopped after the first few releases

 

I imagine you're right about most people having bought a bootleg in the past but for the majority of collectors it would have been a long time ago and I doubt they buy them now

 

I think you may win your argument on some other forum such as Facebook but as this is a Rare & Northern Soul Forum I would guess you are in the minority on here

 

So its fine, for people who are now OVO only, to have bought cheaper alternatives when they started out

buying/collecting, but its not fine for newcomers to do that now.

[Roual Galloway]

 

 

Well I guess I can see it from their point of view - easy way to make money

for the record it's not an easy way to make money

[Kegsy]

Obviously someone is buying them or they would have stopped after the first few releases

 

I imagine you're right about most people having bought a bootleg in the past but for the majority of collectors it would have been a long time ago and I doubt they buy them now

 

I think you may win your argument on some other forum such as Facebook but as this is a Rare & Northern Soul Forum I would guess you are in the minority on here

 

Given that only some of the Secret Stash releases could be classed as northern soul, I don't

think its about northern soul at all. Well unless you just object to some of the releases

and not the others.

[Kjw]

for the record it's not an easy way to make money

 

Well why do they do it then ?

[Kjw]

So its fine, for people who are now OVO only, to have bought cheaper alternatives when they started out

buying/collecting, but its not fine for newcomers to do that now.

 

You're coming up with arguments for the sake of it - most of us were in our mid-teens and didn't know any better at the time - things have moved on since then.

 

I couldn't care less whether people buy bootlegs or not - it's their choice. The question I raised is why companies like Outta Sight re-issue things that have been re-issued or bootlegged before (some numerous times over) and are readily available.

[Kegsy]

You're coming up with arguments for the sake of it - most of us were in our mid-teens and didn't know any better at the time - things have moved on since then.

 

I couldn't care less whether people buy bootlegs or not - it's their choice. The question I raised is why companies like Outta Sight re-issue things that have been re-issued or bootlegged before (some numerous times over) and are readily available.

 

Quite simply because there must have been a demand for them probably from newcomers to

the scene, or are you saying people are sitting with four or five different re-issue copies

of the same record in their collections.

Edited March 8, 2015 by Kegsy

[Kjw]

Quite simply because there must have been a demand for them probably from newcomers to

the scene, or are you saying people are sitting with four or five different re-issue copies

of the same record in their collections.

 

I'll let you have the last word and think you're right even though most people on this site won't agree with most of the comments you've made

[Kegsy]

You're coming up with arguments for the sake of it - most of us were in our mid-teens and didn't know any better at the time - things have moved on since then.

 

I couldn't care less whether people buy bootlegs or not - it's their choice. The question I raised is why companies like Outta Sight re-issue things that have been re-issued or bootlegged before (some numerous times over) and are readily available.

 

So all the youngsters getting into the scene now SHOULD know better ??????????????

[Kegsy]

I'll let you have the last word and think you're right even though most people on this site won't agree with most of the comments you've made

 

Have you actually read the whole of this thread, have you seen which posts

have the most likes, perhaps the powers that be on here could run a poll

about the issue.

[Roual Galloway]

Well why do they do it then ?

there's easier ways of making money than putting out records because you're not pressing against an order. A label has to gage how many they think they can sell. Sometimes coming up short and sometimes over pressing against sales. 

 

In answer to your other question

 

"The question I raised is why companies like Outta Sight re-issue things that have been re-issued or bootlegged before (some numerous times over) and are readily available."

 

The reason being is that they believe that there is a market for the re-presses that they release. You either buy them or you don't, but i don't believe that anybody should be grumbling about labels that go through the correct legal channels to ensure that all are paid. Good luck to them as far as i'm concerned.

[Jnixon]

I think it's about time that the legal re-issue companies sued the arse off of people who call them bootleggers etc.

 

That would kill a few egos......

 

not really a clever thing to do business wise.

[Guest Russell H]

Well why do they do it then ?

 

Because there's a market for it. It may not be a huge market, or a particularly profitable one, but there's enough of one to enable them to carry on.

 

So by buying the rights to legally own and release unissued tracks based on hard work and passion for soul music, my question now asks what then gives someone the authority or reason to go one step further and put out copies of records that have been known over 30/40 years, same rarities that are legitimately owned through others passion, hard work and money. ??

 

Ownership of those rights.

A copy of a rarity doesn't make the original any less rare. Repro editions of classic albums, comic books, novels, furniture, clothing or any kind of collectible object have been made for years - centuries in some cases. The originals still change hands for ludicrous amounts, because people will still want the original, and no amount of copies, reproductions or reissues will change that.

 

If someone wants to build a decent size 7" single collection, they can either spend hundreds of pounds a time on tracking down the original vinyl, or for the same money buy a couple of shelves full of repros. If you want to argue that the person buying repros doesn't care as much about the music, you'll be fighting a losing battle against logic and reason. They both cared enough about the song to buy a copy. That's what counts.

 

Every person has the right to freedom of choice Ian as you rightfully point out same as every person has the right to an opinion and freedom of speech. I stand by what I have always respected and admired in the importance of original vinyl being played out and the recognition that it carries for the artists who we adore. That's me..

 

What is the importance of original vinyl, outside of a personal collection? It's not a rhetorical question, I'm actually asking. If a DJ plays a song you've never heard before and you like it, and then you find out it's a repro, do you somehow lose the few minutes of pleasure that hearing it gave you? Are they somehow disrespecting the artist by buying a repro single or, god forbid, a CD (where the artist stands a chance of making a little money in royalties), as opposed to the original vinyl brought from a dealer or a fellow collector (where the original artist's potential earnings are nil)?

 

Buy what you like, spend whatever you want on it, it's your money. Hear a song you like, track it down, buy a copy, listen to it whenever you want to - the specifics of the middle two stages only really matter to you. Buying expensive original vinyl, knowing catalogue numbers, who played the trumpet or the producer's inside leg measurement doesn't mean you enjoy the song more than the person who downloaded the MP3 from Amazon does, it just means you enjoy it differently.

 

Neither way is wrong.

[pow wow mik]

So all the youngsters getting into the scene now SHOULD know better ??????????????

Flaw in your argument is that, in the youth of anyone over 40, vinyl will have been the normal format to buy music on, so re-issues and boots were excusable because necesary, even for home use . Now, the only possible reason for them is to dj with, pretending to be a real collector. I'm sure that this was always a reason for their existence, but now its the only reason.

[Dave Moore]

I think the thread is meandering into two separate subjects isn't it?

 

There are the bootleg reissues  that most on here would condemn.  

 

But the Secret Stash set up is a different kettle of fish surely? The only reason the thread was started was that a poster thought it devalued some originals.

 

From my perspective:

 

Creators of the music get a few $$s. (Nice one!)

 

We get to hear a few new records (and buy em if we wish). (Nice one!)

 

All done with integrity. (Nice One!)

 

What's not to like?  If you're main worry is that that disc you bought for pots of dosh and previously cherished has now lost some of it's lustre because it's been reissued, then surely you bought it for the wrong reason?

 

Regards,

 

Dave

[Jerry Hipkiss]

I think the thread is meandering into two separate subjects isn't it?

 

There are the bootleg reissues  that most on here would condemn.  

 

But the Secret Stash set up is a different kettle of fish surely? The only reason the thread was started was that a poster thought it devalued some originals.

 

From my perspective:

 

Creators of the music get a few $$s. (Nice one!)

 

We get to hear a few new records (and buy em if we wish). (Nice one!)

 

All done with integrity. (Nice One!)

 

What's not to like?  If you're main worry is that that disc you bought for pots of dosh and previously cherished has now lost some of it's lustre because it's been reissued, then surely you bought it for the wrong reason?

 

Regards,

 

Dave

Nailed it Dave...no more to be said!

[Kegsy]

Because there's a market for it. It may not be a huge market, or a particularly profitable one, but there's enough of one to enable them to carry on.

 

 

Ownership of those rights.

A copy of a rarity doesn't make the original any less rare. Repro editions of classic albums, comic books, novels, furniture, clothing or any kind of collectible object have been made for years - centuries in some cases. The originals still change hands for ludicrous amounts, because people will still want the original, and no amount of copies, reproductions or reissues will change that.

 

If someone wants to build a decent size 7" single collection, they can either spend hundreds of pounds a time on tracking down the original vinyl, or for the same money buy a couple of shelves full of repros. If you want to argue that the person buying repros doesn't care as much about the music, you'll be fighting a losing battle against logic and reason. They both cared enough about the song to buy a copy. That's what counts.

 

 

What is the importance of original vinyl, outside of a personal collection? It's not a rhetorical question, I'm actually asking. If a DJ plays a song you've never heard before and you like it, and then you find out it's a repro, do you somehow lose the few minutes of pleasure that hearing it gave you? Are they somehow disrespecting the artist by buying a repro single or, god forbid, a CD (where the artist stands a chance of making a little money in royalties), as opposed to the original vinyl brought from a dealer or a fellow collector (where the original artist's potential earnings are nil)?

 

Buy what you like, spend whatever you want on it, it's your money. Hear a song you like, track it down, buy a copy, listen to it whenever you want to - the specifics of the middle two stages only really matter to you. Buying expensive original vinyl, knowing catalogue numbers, who played the trumpet or the producer's inside leg measurement doesn't mean you enjoy the song more than the person who downloaded the MP3 from Amazon does, it just means you enjoy it differently.

 

Neither way is wrong.

 

Great post and I agree 100%.

However the central idea that runs through it, people buy records because like the tune, isn't always the case.

 

How do you explain "label completeists".

 

Take the Shrine label for example, how many releases are simply collected

due to the Label's rarity and myths that surround it.

Lets face facts not all of Shrine's output passes the lughole test.

[Kegsy]

Flaw in your argument is that, in the youth of anyone over 40, vinyl will have been the normal format to buy music on, so re-issues and boots were excusable because necesary, even for home use . Now, the only possible reason for them is to dj with, pretending to be a real collector. I'm sure that this was always a reason for their existence, but now its the only reason.

 

So everybody who buys these freshly pressed records is a DJ. 

I would suspect that thousands of copies are sold otherwise it wouldn't be worth it.

So now we have thousands of DJ's knocking about, how does this work, do they all

do five minute spots at the available venues, and you say my argument is flawed !!!!!!!.

[pow wow mik]

What is the importance of original vinyl, outside of a personal collection? It's not a rhetorical question, I'm actually asking. If a DJ plays a song you've never heard before and you like it, and then you find out it's a repro, do you somehow lose the few minutes of pleasure that hearing it gave you? Are they somehow disrespecting the artist by buying a repro single or, god forbid, a CD (where the artist stands a chance of making a little money in royalties), as opposed to the original vinyl brought from a dealer or a fellow collector (where the original artist's potential earnings are nil)?

Buy what you like, spend whatever you want on it, it's your money. Hear a song you like, track it down, buy a copy, listen to it whenever you want to - the specifics of the middle two stages only really matter to you. Buying expensive original vinyl, knowing catalogue numbers, who played the trumpet or the producer's inside leg measurement doesn't mean you enjoy the song more than the person who downloaded the MP3 from Amazon does, it just means you enjoy it differently.

Neither way is wrong.

The problem with arguments like yours', is that they only apply retrospecively; that is: once every decent 45 has been replicated, then yes, original vinyl does lose a lot of its importance, but go back 10, 20 years and original vinyl is a lot more important - the collecting of it being the predominant source of new music being unearthed - the very material that eventually gets re-issued.

So when asking whether original vinyl is important, think about how many of these booted tracks would even be known if some people, at least, weren't willing to make a bit more effort and sacrifice a bit more of their time and money to buy originals.

sometimes seems like the re-issue makers and buyers believe that they would exist without the existence of other people collecting originals, then scenes raising the music's profile - they wouldn't. So logically, the bootleg types ignore a rule that they depend on others observing, either now or in the past.

In ethics, its called 'free riding'.

Edited March 8, 2015 by pow wow mik

[pow wow mik]

So everybody who buys these freshly pressed records is a DJ. 

I would suspect that thousands of copies are sold otherwise it wouldn't be worth it.

So now we have thousands of DJ's knocking about, how does this work, do they all

do five minute spots at the available venues, and you say 

yes, you've fairly accurately described the situation!

[Kegsy]

The problem with arguments like yours', is that they only apply retrospecively; that is: once every decent 45 has been replicated, then yes, original vinyl does lose a lot of its importance, but go back 10, 20 years and original vinyl is a lot more important - the collecting of it being the predominant source of new music being unearthed - the very material that eventually gets re-issued.

So when asking whether original vinyl is important, think about how many of these booted tracks would even be known if some people, at least, weren't willing to make a bit more effort and sacrifice a bit more of their time and money to buy originals.

sometimes seems like the re-issue makers and buyers believe that they would exist without the existence of other people collecting originals, then scenes raising the music's profile - they wouldn't. So logically, the bootleg types ignore a rule that they depend on others observing, either now or in the past.

In ethics, its called 'free riding'.

 

Obviously if nobody had found the originals none of the tracks would have

been known, and if nobody had found the original nobody would have booted them either.

Nobody is arguing the importance of original vinyl to the scene, I just don't understand

your point on bootlegs since no tune was EVER originally played on a bootleg. 

 

In terms of time and money to buy originals, it may come as a surprise to you that

almost every original when first found probably cost a few cents/pence when 

first discovered.

Fair enough people did/do spend time/money going to the states but if they

find a new record in some warehouse/thrift shop or wherever i'll bet they pay

next to nowt for it even today, no matter how rare it eventually turns out to be.

Back in the day it probably cost n times more to ship a container full of records over here

than the actual cost of the records themselves.

Edited March 8, 2015 by Kegsy

[Ernie Andrews]

there's easier ways of making money than putting out records because you're not pressing against an order. A label has to gage how many they think they can sell. Sometimes coming up short and sometimes over pressing against sales. 

 

In answer to your other question

 

"The question I raised is why companies like Outta Sight re-issue things that have been re-issued or bootlegged before (some numerous times over) and are readily available."

 

The reason being is that they believe that there is a market for the re-presses that they release. You either buy them or you don't, but i don't believe that anybody should be grumbling about labels that go through the correct legal channels to ensure that all are paid. Good luck to them as far as i'm concerned.

With regards to count - you dont need to order a specific number anymore like you did 20 years ago- you can order 1 or 3 or 24 or 78 or 212. When I met with Peter brown 10 or so years ago in New York he was peddling his records and I asked how many he had to order and he told me any number you want now! The technology was so cheap that it cost him $2 each for single copies and then reduced in price for more multiples.

[Godzilla]

Flaw in your argument is that, in the youth of anyone over 40, vinyl will have been the normal format to buy music on, so re-issues and boots were excusable because necesary, even for home use . Now, the only possible reason for them is to dj with, pretending to be a real collector. I'm sure that this was always a reason for their existence, but now its the only reason.

 

I think I've made this point before, Mik, but I think you're viewing this issue from a strictly scene based perspective.

There are another lot of DJs who play vinyl because they always have done, have collections with old original records across all sorts of genres, some of which they bought as new, some they've collected from second hand vinyl shops, boot sales, charity shops etc. These people also buy new vinyl regularly. Most of them are aware of the scenes like the NS scene but aren't actively a part of it.

So when the likes of Juno advertise each week's new releases, they're as likely to buy a couple of Outta Site releases as they are new House or D&B releases, dub 12s, Nu disco or the latest Bamboos single. They play sets that cross all genres without subscribing to any particular scene. The reason they'll buy a repress is because they hear it and like it - they may be unaware that there's an expensive original or it may just be of no interest to them that there is one. One thing I'm sure of is that they are not pretending to to be some top Northern, mod or R&b jock - they don't play at those venues or to that audience.

I guess there's likely to be a temptation from the good folks on this site to look down on these DJs, but that's kind of missing the point: to expect someone who isn't part of a particular scene to nevertheless conform with its values isn't logical. That way we'd trying cats for murder every time they kill a bird.

Edited March 8, 2015 by Godzilla

[Roual Galloway]

With regards to count - you dont need to order a specific number anymore like you did 20 years ago- you can order 1 or 3 or 24 or 78 or 212. When I met with Peter brown 10 or so years ago in New York he was peddling his records and I asked how many he had to order and he told me any number you want now! The technology was so cheap that it cost him $2 each for single copies and then reduced in price for more multiples.

not strictly true - the mimimum initial order quantity in Europe is between 250-500 units. If you order any less than that you'll be paying roughly the same price as 250-300 units because the bulk of the charge is with lacquers, metalwork or maybe DMM.metalwork if you fancy going that route.  Once you've got your metalwork in theory the plant could press 1 for you but the cost would rocket because of the set up charges. Re-orders can be as low as 200 units, but most plants like sticking above 300 units as the mimium order. Having said that most plants were pretty desperate 8-10 years ago and the mimimum order quantity dropped to 50 copies for a lot of plants. As soon as the majors rediscovered vinyl the minimum order quantity has increased year on year. 

[Chalky]

To many seem to think that these releases are aimed at the UK Northern Soul scene and too many view it form a DJ's perspective, just shows how f***** up the scene is when viewing it like that.  There is more to collecting than DJing and more collectors exist outside of the UK Northern Soul scene.  Most couldn't give a toss about the UK Soul Scene and have no interest in it socially.  Most collect because of a love of the music and a desire to hear something new.  

Edited March 8, 2015 by chalky

[Ian Dewhirst]

Every person has the right to freedom of choice Ian as you rightfully point out same as every person has the right to an opinion and freedom of speech. I stand by what I have always respected and admired in the importance of original vinyl being played out and the recognition that it carries for the artists who we adore. That's me..

 

But this is what I don't get Mrs M. The playing of the original vinyl is indeed to be applauded. Had these original DJs and diggers not discovered the original vinyl copies then there would probably be zero demand for the recording. So, all well and good. The downside is that the artist, the owner of the recording and the owner of the song get nothing from this activity as it's generally 20-40 years later.

 

However, if some enterprising company picks up the rights or the original owner decides to reissue the recordings, then the resultant revenues are going to the appropriate people in some way or other, which is good right? Most of these records lost money in the first place, so why shouldn't the copyright owners, songwriters and artists see some revenues from the re-issues? 

 

Eddie Parker sold more records last year then in his entire career to date. I think it's a good thing that these acts are getting the level of attention now, which they never enjoyed 40-50 years ago, although it's a shame that it's probably too little, too late.

 

I think Secret Stash are doing a fantastic job and are doing exactly what they should be doing in making these records available again, including unreleased stuff which has been in the can for 50 years. What could possibly be wrong with that? 

 

Ian D 

[Kev Cane]

To many seem to think that these releases are aimed at the UK Northern Soul scene and too many view it form a DJ's perspective, just shows how f***** up the scene is when viewing it like that.  There is more to collecting than DJing and more collectors exist outside of the UK Northern Soul scene.  Most couldn't give a toss about the UK Soul Scene and have no interest in it socially.  Most collect because of a love of the music and a desire to hear something new.  

Fantastic post, what a lot of people have been wanting to say for years

[Ian Dewhirst]

To many seem to think that these releases are aimed at the UK Northern Soul scene and too many view it form a DJ's perspective, just shows how f***** up the scene is when viewing it like that.  There is more to collecting than DJing and more collectors exist outside of the UK Northern Soul scene.  Most couldn't give a toss about the UK Soul Scene and have no interest in it socially.  Most collect because of a love of the music and a desire to hear something new.  

 

I know TONS of people who buy these as new releases but who aren't particularly on the scene as we know it. It's not that surprising when you consider that bootlegs of "Tainted Love" were capable of selling 20K units in the 70s in much the same way. Some of these tunes crossed over to a wider audience via local DJs that needed some Northern Soul in their boxes to cope with requests on their local pub nights. These days there are loads of eclectic DJs with wide tastes who like to program some Northern Soul in their sets. These are some of the guys that were coming round to my place in the 90s and 00s buying up all my spares and Northern compilation albums because they also only played vinyl. The core Northern Soul scene is but one of many component scenes which co-exist out there. In the 90s it was hard to go to a gig anywhere that wasn't playing "Purple Haze" or "If It's All The Same To You"! 

 

Ian D 

[Wiggyflat]

Ian is right there are a load of people out there who have no interest in the history of the soul scene and just want to use them at the hundreds of Soul nights or bar gigs who advertise...vinyl....Deejays who discover these records are going to have to start covering up again if they want to have exclusives.

[Pete S]

So everybody who buys these freshly pressed records is a DJ. 

I would suspect that thousands of copies are sold otherwise it wouldn't be worth it.

So now we have thousands of DJ's knocking about, how does this work, do they all

do five minute spots at the available venues, and you say my argument is flawed !!!!!!!.

 

I buy loads of these for myself and I don't DJ.  Just like playing records.  So sue me.

[pow wow mik]

I think I've made this point before, Mik, but I think you're viewing this issue from a strictly scene based perspective.

There are another lot of DJs who play vinyl because they always have done, have collections with old original records across all sorts of genres, some of which they bought as new, some they've collected from second hand vinyl shops, boot sales, charity shops etc. These people also buy new vinyl regularly. Most of them are aware of the scenes like the NS scene but aren't actively a part of it.

So when the likes of Juno advertise each week's new releases, they're as likely to buy a couple of Outta Site releases as they are new House or D&B releases, dub 12s, Nu disco or the latest Bamboos single. They play sets that cross all genres without subscribing to any particular scene. The reason they'll buy a repress is because they hear it and like it - they may be unaware that there's an expensive original or it may just be of no interest to them that there is one. One thing I'm sure of is that they are not pretending to to be some top Northern, mod or R&b jock - they don't play at those venues or to that audience.

I guess there's likely to be a temptation from the good folks on this site to look down on these DJs, but that's kind of missing the point: to expect someone who isn't part of a particular scene to nevertheless conform with its values isn't logical. That way we'd trying cats for murder every time they kill a bird.

Fair point, I do get that, but I dont have much respect for that kind of dj either, sounds like vacuous nathan barley stuff to me - and I know cos I've dabbled in them circles. And none of it explains the vinyl bit - they should save money and petro-chemicals by playing mp3s instead, except I guess that vinyl looks cooler if you're a dj culture vulture type.

and you're analogy doesnt work, cos humans dont observe laws or morals about not killing birds, unless they're endangered birds or pets or some thing, in which case we wouldnt try the guilty cat, we might just kill it, or somehow prevent it from access to the birds

a better analogy would be cats figuring out a way to open tins of cat food and then running off and forming cat-only communities with a stock of tins, saying 'who needs humans' and thinking that they had got it made! :-)

[pow wow mik]

I buy loads of these for myself and I don't DJ.  Just like playing records.  So sue me.

expect a letter from my solicitor. :-)

[Guest Russell H]

Great post and I agree 100%.

However the central idea that runs through it, people buy records because like the tune, isn't always the case.

 

How do you explain "label completeists".

 

Take the Shrine label for example, how many releases are simply collected

due to the Label's rarity and myths that surround it.

Lets face facts not all of Shrine's output passes the lughole test.

 

They exist in every collector group - comics fans buying titles they don't like for a complete run is exactly the same.

 

That's a different conversation, but even then, they can either buy the expensive original or the cheaper repro (depending on personal preference). They still want the thing, even if it's not exactly for the music.

 

The problem with arguments like yours', is that they only apply retrospecively; that is: once every decent 45 has been replicated, then yes, original vinyl does lose a lot of its importance, but go back 10, 20 years and original vinyl is a lot more important - the collecting of it being the predominant source of new music being unearthed - the very material that eventually gets re-issued.

So when asking whether original vinyl is important, think about how many of these booted tracks would even be known if some people, at least, weren't willing to make a bit more effort and sacrifice a bit more of their time and money to buy originals.

sometimes seems like the re-issue makers and buyers believe that they would exist without the existence of other people collecting originals, then scenes raising the music's profile - they wouldn't. So logically, the bootleg types ignore a rule that they depend on others observing, either now or in the past.

In ethics, its called 'free riding'.

 

Collecting records because you want them is great, if people want to buy the expensive original vinyl, go ahead. If people want to rummage through the vaults of long-gone record companies to find rarities for their own collections or to bring us high-quality repros of lost stuff, that's great too. I understand exactly where you're coming from.

 

The part I don't get is that once these tracks are available on a cheaper repro, why insist that a DJ has to play the original vinyl? If you want to only play original vinyl in your home, or your own DJ sets (those who DJ), that's fine - but it's not up to us to decide what others do.

 

The other part I don't get is the worry about repros devaluing the originals. If you've paid X amount for a record, the resale value is and always will be "what someone else is willing to pay for it". The idea of amassing a record collection based solely on how much money it's worth for somebody else seems strange to me - I buy music because I like it, not because I'll be able to sell it on later at a profit. If you weren't planning on selling it on and are just annoyed that a cheaper version is now available, I get how that would be frustrating. But if you've paid a lot for the original, you paid for the song plus the experience of hunting for it and the pleasure of finding it - and though you'll never get that from a repro, those that might want to buy the original from you will also want that experience and be willing to pay for it accordingly. The value to them won't drop as much, because they don't want the easy experience of buying the repro/CD/MP3 - they want the adventure.

[pow wow mik]

To many seem to think that these releases are aimed at the UK Northern Soul scene and too many view it form a DJ's perspective, just shows how f***** up the scene is when viewing it like that.  There is more to collecting than DJing and more collectors exist outside of the UK Northern Soul scene.  Most couldn't give a toss about the UK Soul Scene and have no interest in it socially.  Most collect because of a love of the music and a desire to hear something new.

I'm sure that's true, and I'm sure it applies to quality re-issue product like Ace CDs and remastered or previously unreleased 45s even, but it's not that market buying lookalike 45s of big club tracks is it?

I love the music and desire hearing new things in lots of genres - my first stop is youtube not juno

[Ernie Andrews]

not strictly true - the mimimum initial order quantity in Europe is between 250-500 units. If you order any less than that you'll be paying roughly the same price as 250-300 units because the bulk of the charge is with lacquers, metalwork or maybe DMM.metalwork if you fancy going that route.  Once you've got your metalwork in theory the plant could press 1 for you but the cost would rocket because of the set up charges. Re-orders can be as low as 200 units, but most plants like sticking above 300 units as the mimium order. Having said that most plants were pretty desperate 8-10 years ago and the mimimum order quantity dropped to 50 copies for a lot of plants. As soon as the majors rediscovered vinyl the minimum order quantity has increased year on year. 

Oh so you have met Peter Brown have you? and on that occasion he said something different to you than he did to me as we were having lunch on the bridge. You cannot say its not strictly true unless you are saying Peter Brown  was fibbing to me and why would he! It might be the case as you put it in Europe but I wasn't saying that was I.?