Pay Pal Friends

[Down Under Soul]

Hi I recently bought a couple of records here and was invoiced £34 inc postage. That was fine and I paid in full. Next I yet a message saying 'I'm almost there' as they got paid £1.87 short and I was to pay the extra £1.87. I am pretty pissed off as no where did it say to pay as family/friends and so I've asked for a full refund and to cancel the sale. What a going on here? How many people on here do NOT get asked to pay family/friends even though you've never met the person and they're not family. Every seller does it and so I guess my point is that maybe sellers either incorporate the fees in to the sale or wear it themselves but to quibble over £1.87 does seem pretty lame and petty. Maybe Selling rules on here need to be tightened up a bit

[Spacehopper]

if the seller didnt state to pay 'friends and family' then IMO you shouldn't have to pay the paypal fees on  a sale 'for goods'..he should..depends on how much you want the record I suppose as its only a couple of quid

 

most sellers do ask now as their fees can be high I suppose if selling lots..basically as a buyer you do not have the insurance a normal sale on paypal can give but you have to trust the sellers..never had a problem myself ..so far

dean

[Mach]

you can also lose if seller mistakenly gives you a wrong paypal address (which surprisingly happens pretty often) missing bits off etc or dot com iinstead of co. uk etc, the payment can go through to someones paypal account and paypal are not at all intrested in rectifing the mistake because its supposed to be your family/friends and you can lose your money,.happened to me once...the recipitent of my payment just ignored my request to refund my money and kept it.

[Dave West]

I once bought a record off a seller on this site,paid Friends and Family. Record never arrived, paypal not interested. Anyway reported seller to S.S. Seller was kicked off this site as far as i know,probably still trading under another name. Cant remember sellers i.d. it was about 6 years ago. I only buy F&Family now if its a well known (on SS) trader.

[Jnixon]

you can also lose if seller mistakenly gives you a wrong paypal address (which surprisingly happens pretty often) missing bits off etc or dot com iinstead of co. uk etc, the payment can go through to someones paypal account and paypal are not at all intrested in rectifing the mistake because its supposed to be your family/friends and you can lose your money,.happened to me once...the recipitent of my payment just ignored my request to refund my money and kept it.

 

thats not entirely true. you can simply cancel the transaction yourself as the funds wont land anywhere if they miss spell their address youare sending too. the only way that can happen is if another person has the same address  the way the seller has miss spelled it.

 

it sits as unclaimed funds.

 

 

 

Hi I recently bought a couple of records here and was invoiced £34 inc postage. That was fine and I paid in full. Next I yet a message saying 'I'm almost there' as they got paid £1.87 short and I was to pay the extra £1.87. I am pretty pissed off as no where did it say to pay as family/friends and so I've asked for a full refund and to cancel the sale. What a going on here? How many people on here do NOT get asked to pay family/friends even though you've never met the person and they're not family. Every seller does it and so I guess my point is that maybe sellers either incorporate the fees in to the sale or wear it themselves but to quibble over £1.87 does seem pretty lame and petty. Maybe Selling rules on here need to be tightened up a bit

 

this cuts both ways though - are you not quibbling over £1.87 and losing 2 records you want because of it? seems self defeating to me.

 

i ask for friends and family payment at the point where we talk via pm and i give my payment address. im guessing this is what you are calling invoice stage? 

 

never had an issue and have made a lots more transactions on here than my feedback suggests. 

[Phild]

The whole Friends & Family payment for records should stop IMO. If the buyer wants payment by Paypal they should stand the charges.

 

If this ever gets out into the red tops, it will be a bigger scandal than the MP's expenses or cash for questions

[John A]

Let's all go back to the good old days of writing out a cheque  and an envelope,nipping to the shop for a stamp,posting the thing. Having to traipse off into town to put a cheque  in the bank,waiting minimum of three days for it to clear before posting the record out.

 Seems like a lot less hassle to me 

Edited February 18, 2015 by John A

[forester]

I think if you send to the wrong address, then cancel, the money goes back in your account after a few weeks, I have spelt , an address wrong myself, and the money never left my account, so when I looked up the rules, reguarding refunds, it explaines it your wrights, don't bother ring waste of time , like knitting fog, still shit happens , good luck jon

[Mach]

thats not entirely true. you can simply cancel the transaction yourself as the funds wont land anywhere if they miss spell their address youare sending too. the only way that can happen is if another person has the same address  the way the seller has miss spelled it.

 

it sits as unclaimed funds.

 

 

 

 

this cuts both ways though - are you not quibbling over £1.87 and losing 2 records you want because of it? seems self defeating to me.

 

i ask for friends and family payment at the point where we talk via pm and i give my payment address. im guessing this is what you are calling invoice stage? 

 

never had an issue and have made a lots more transactions on here than my feedback suggests. 

Thats what happened another paypal customer had the incorrect address the seller gave me, and i dont know now, but you could not cancel  the payment then,.. i know because i tried to.. obviously

[Phild]

Let's all go back to the good old days of writing out a cheque  and an envelope,nipping to the shop for a stamp,posting the thing. Having to traipse off into town to put a cheque  in the bank,waiting minimum of three days for it to clear before posting the record out.

 Seems like a lot less hassle to me 

 

Or why don't sellers just take the Paypal charges on the chin, or account for them in the sale price?

[Mach]

Put simply...if a seller gives you an incorrect paypal address, which is somebody elses..(and you pay family/friends)...you lose your dosh .

 

ps  i agree with Phil, rather take the hit and be covered, unless its a well trusted seller

[John Reed]

Let's all go back to the good old days of writing out a cheque  and an envelope,nipping to the shop for a stamp,posting the thing. Having to traipse off into town to put a cheque  in the bank,waiting minimum of three days for it to clear before posting the record out.

 Seems like a lot less hassle to me 

I only bought one record from the States in the “olden days”. I used my work phone to call the US to see if the record was available as I didn’t want to have and international call on my Mum & Dad’s phone bill.  Went to the bank for an international money order and posted it off.  Waited weeks and weeks for the record to arrive.

 

I do think it should be a site policy that it's mandatory for sellers include any fees charged in the unit price of items being sold, that way its 100% clear what's to be paid.

Edited February 18, 2015 by John Reed

[Godzilla]

As far as Soul Source sales go I think it's deal between individuals and therefore the details are up to them.

I usually ask for family and friends payment and point out that I'm known on here and have a solid rep. However I usually take the approach that it's not a deal breaker. and if someone is really uncomfortable with FF I'll take the hit on charges.

[KevH]

Or why don't sellers just take the Paypal charges on the chin, or account for them in the sale price?

 

I think some do account for charges in the sale price.

[Chris L]

Or why don't sellers just take the Paypal charges on the chin, or account for them in the sale price?

 

Here, here !! It's just a way to skim off a few shekels - thing is if you ask if seller wants to be paid via Friends/Family he'll pretty much always say "yes". I prefer a bank transfer, no fees there.

[Chris Anderton]

Sellers should stand the charge and put it down as "the cost of doing business".

 

It always makes me laugh when I see sellers asking for F&F...what they are really asking is "Let me make a few extra quid out of this sale....oh and you will have no rights if the record goes missing"...and the majority of people are willing to agree to doing that!!

 

To be honest I`m surprised PayPal are still allowing it.

 

Chris

[Labeat]

Let's all go back to the good old days of writing out a cheque  and an envelope,nipping to the shop for a stamp,posting the thing. Having to traipse off into town to put a cheque  in the bank,waiting minimum of three days for it to clear before posting the record out.

 Seems like a lot less hassle to me 

And while were at it back to the days of John Manships typed sales lists instead of cut-throat auctions

(or was that far too simple?)

[KevH]

If i buy a record for £20 i expect to send £20 to the buyer.And vice versa.

[Pete S]

Sellers should stand the charge and put it down as "the cost of doing business".

 

It always makes me laugh when I see sellers asking for F&F...what they are really asking is "Let me make a few extra quid out of this sale....oh and you will have no rights if the record goes missing"...and the majority of people are willing to agree to doing that!!

 

To be honest I`m surprised PayPal are still allowing it.

 

Chris

 

Pretty outrageous statement there Chris.

If the account is in credit there is no charge to buyer or seller.

I never ask for friends and family, people just do it because they know they can trust me, they'll get their record, and if they don't, they'll get their money back.  Thousands of transactions, you find me one person who didn't get their item from me.  My customers are extremely important to me as they pay for the food I eat, they are fully covered - by me!

[Kev Cane]

Pretty outrageous statement there Chris.

If the account is in credit there is no charge to buyer or seller.

I never ask for friends and family, people just do it because they know they can trust me, they'll get their record, and if they don't, they'll get their money back.  Thousands of transactions, you find me one person who didn't get their item from me.  My customers are extremely important to me as they pay for the food I eat, they are fully covered - by me!

I can vouch for that Pete, always had great service, unfortunately, not everyone is like you, hence, there is a lot of credibility in Chris's response

 

Kev

[John A]

I only bought one record from the States in the “olden days”. I used my work phone to call the US to see if the record was available as I didn’t want to have and international call on my Mum & Dad’s phone bill.  Went to the bank for an international money order and posted it off.  Waited weeks and weeks for the record to arrive.

 

I do think it should be a site policy that it's mandatory for sellers include any fees charged in the unit price of items being sold, that way its 100% clear what's to be paid.

Obviously my previous post was completely tongue in cheek. Now those days before paypal I forever seemed to be down the foreign currency desk at holiday hypermarket for a fistful of dollars to send to the U.S. and then hope for a record to arrive 2/3 weeks later. I don't recall there being any "buyer rights" if said record never turned up. This point seems to be all that matters to some these days. I've no problem with F&F. I tend to believe people generally are honest. 

[Pete S]

Obviously my previous post was completely tongue in cheek. Now those days before paypal I forever seemed to be down the foreign currency desk at holiday hypermarket for a fistful of dollars to send to the U.S. and then hope for a record to arrive 2/3 weeks later. I don't recall there being any "buyer rights" if said record never turned up. This point seems to be all that matters to some these days. I've no problem with F&F. I tend to believe people generally are honest. 

 

Having to go to the bank, buy dollars, conceal them in an envelope, hope and pray it got there....or having to send by Western Union money transfer with no guarantee that you'd hear anything back

[billb]

Pretty outrageous statement there Chris.

If the account is in credit there is no charge to buyer or seller.

I never ask for friends and family, people just do it because they know they can trust me, they'll get their record, and if they don't, they'll get their money back.  Thousands of transactions, you find me one person who didn't get their item from me.  My customers are extremely important to me as they pay for the food I eat, they are fully covered - by me!

I don't mind paying "friends and family" when it's folk I know / dealt with before, yourself included, like you say, it doesn't cost me as I've credit in my account and it's not adding to the sellers paypal costs.

 

Why would any buyer want the seller to pay unecessary costs to paypal?

 

I wouldn't for a new seller that I don't know on here with no feedback though.

[Phild]

The thing is that for most reputable dealers you can pay by credit card. That incurs a cost for the seller, but I never hear of a seller asking to add 3-4% if paying by Visa etc.

 

Paypal has, it seems, become the de facto method of payment for soul vinyl. And, like most things to do with soul vinyl, common sense and normal real world business practice goes out of the window..

 

I have no problem doing F & F for someone I know (like Pete S), but it is madness to send someone you hardly know hundreds of pounds with no protection. However that said, I have done it a fair few times myself. But common sense goes out the window where soul vinyl is concerned

[Pete S]

 

The thing is that for most reputable dealers you can pay by credit card. That incurs a cost for the seller, but I never hear of a seller asking to add 3-4% if paying by Visa etc.

 

Paypal has, it seems, become the de facto method of payment for soul vinyl. And, like most things to do with soul vinyl, common sense and normal real world business practice goes out of the window..

 

I have no problem doing F & F for someone I know (like Pete S), but it is madness to send someone you hardly know hundreds of pounds with no protection. However that said, I have done it a fair few times myself. But common sense goes out the window where soul vinyl is concerned

 

 

As far as credit cards go, I've just had to return my machine last month - I had over £30 in standing charges but made no sales on it - everyone wants to use paypal and it's pointless me keeping the machine just for the two people who still pay by card.

I agree, it's crazy to send someone you don't know money with no guarantees.

[davidwapples]

Let's all go back to the good old days of writing out a cheque  and an envelope,nipping to the shop for a stamp,posting the thing. Having to traipse off into town to put a cheque  in the bank,waiting minimum of three days for it to clear before posting the record out.

 Seems like a lot less hassle to me 

 

Sounds like one of the dealers i buy from , i can sometimes get records from the states before the damn cheque has cleared in this country.

 

If he wasnt so cheap i wouldnt bother

[Godzilla]

 

The thing is that for most reputable dealers you can pay by credit card.

 

 

There's difference between reputable (for example someone who has a good rep on here but still likely to be a hobbyist in terms of buying/selling) and being a pro-seller, who - as you rightly say - might be more expected to offer card payment options.

[Chris L]

Pretty outrageous statement there Chris. If the account is in credit there is no charge to buyer or seller. I never ask for friends and family, people just do it because they know they can trust me, they'll get their record, and if they don't, they'll get their money back.  Thousands of transactions, you find me one person who didn't get their item from me.  My customers are extremely important to me as they pay for the food I eat, they are fully covered - by me!

 

That's true Pete, I tend to transfer everything over to my bank. The majority of my purchases are in the US, they seem to take Paypal charges in their stride.

[Constellation161]

Think sellers should take the hit on fees for getting instant payment.

         Mick Perrins.

[Chris Anderton]

Pretty outrageous statement there Chris.

If the account is in credit there is no charge to buyer or seller.

I never ask for friends and family, people just do it because they know they can trust me, they'll get their record, and if they don't, they'll get their money back.  Thousands of transactions, you find me one person who didn't get their item from me.  My customers are extremely important to me as they pay for the food I eat, they are fully covered - by me!

I`m sure that is the case Pete...as it is with me. People buy from people and they build up a trust.....probably the key to any successful business.

 

If a payment goes through my site PayPal automatically deducts their charges but if a record is sold away from the site people often send F&F because that trust has already been built.

 

What i`m talking about is people I have never met, probably never going to meet and never heard of before selling records and asking for F&F payments as if it is their right to do so. In doing so they are waiving my rights should the record go missing for any reason.

 

Chris

[Chris Anderton]

As an aside, If anyone is interested the breakdown for method of  payment through my website for the last 12 months is like this:

 

PayPal 69.5%

Cards 7.6%

Payment by post 22.9%

 

As somebody mentioned earlier PayPal certainly is the method people choose to pay for their vinyl.

 

 

Chris

[Jnixon]

keep hearing the word business and dealers. most of the transactions on here are not made to a business they are normal people who buy records.

 

with me its more a case of i dont really want a giant corporate like any financial institution to pocket from my life generally let alone my hobby, so F&F is fine.

 

if its a bigger ticket tune and its rare enough then i add the fees for the seller. do me free SD post and ill cover your fees was the line before we got the gift then F & F. its really not a hard issue to sort out is it?

 

people on here are for the main an honest lot but its a very soul source thread isnt it, all over what is not even the price of a cup of tea. nuts. 

[Chalky]

The trouble with paypal is there is no real alternative.  Well there is but not widely recognised or known about.

 

For UK customers there is PAYM, a free system between banks which uses your mobile number.  I've posted a topic or two about it on here but not many seem to interested?

 

Most banks offer free bank transfer now, why peope don't use these facilities is beyond me.

 

Maybe dealers should be making heir customers aware of PAYM and bank transfer?  I rarely see them mentioned on lists, auctions etc.

[Chalky]

As for paypal fees, sellers should factor these in to their sales.

[Pete S]

Think sellers should take the hit on fees for getting instant payment.

         Mick Perrins.

 

Shall I start charging people for getting the record to them within 24 hours in return 

[Jnixon]

The trouble with paypal is there is no real alternative.  Well there is but not widely recognised or known about.

 

For UK customers there is PAYM, a free system between banks which uses your mobile number.  I've posted a topic or two about it on here but not many seem to interested?

 

Most banks offer free bank transfer now, why peope don't use these facilities is beyond me.

 

Maybe dealers should be making heir customers aware of PAYM and bank transfer?  I rarely see them mentioned on lists, auctions etc.

 

the missus

the taxman

the general agro of record money not being separated from life money and possible agro from the first 2.

 

having a separate financial tool you can use for just the one issue is very handy i find.

[Quinvy]

If you send the money for a record by any other means, you still aren't covered for being robbed are you? In fact paypal is the only way you can get your money back from a con man/woman.

 

Most transactions on this site are between individuals rather than dealers. I have never had a problem either buying or selling on this site. All my problems have been on eBay with US sellers who insist on stateing the full selling price on the customs ticket.

[Mellorful]

I'm surprised paypal dont seem interested that a seller is abusing their banking facility with F&F. Should the FCA get wind of paypal permitting account abuse then Paypal can expect a hefty fine, probably a seven figure £number and possibly eight figure £number should the FCA investigate and deem them guilty of also flaunting the money laundering regulations 2007. Ouch!

Complaints process for paypal is the way forward if you are not satisfied and the FCA and finacial Ombudsman is still not satisfied with paypal ruling at end of complaints process. 

Better to send money bank to bank if the seller objects to paypal fees or add the paypal goods and service fee to the overall sale price.

Atb

Stu

[Chalky]

the missus

the taxman

the general agro of record money not being separated from life money and possible agro from the first 2.

 

having a separate financial tool you can use for just the one issue is very handy i find.

 

who wears trousers?

 

As for tax, paypal restrict your account when too much goes in via payments, especially from round the world. They are aware of money laundering and tax fiddles so you aren't secure with paypal, especially if they decide you are a business.  Was told last week of an account being closed and not being able to access the money.  I've had restrictions on mine at one time and had to answer shit load of questions.

[Ted Massey]

surely it better just to add 4% to the total and pay for goods, you are covered then

[Jnixon]

who wears trousers?

 

As for tax, paypal restrict your account when too much goes in via payments, especially from round the world. They are aware of money laundering and tax fiddles so you aren't secure with paypal, especially if they decide you are a business.  Was told last week of an account being closed and not being able to access the money.  I've had restrictions on mine at one time and had to answer shit load of questions.

 

ha. indeed. i dont want my tunes money being spent on shoes. 

 

its just simpler in my view. we both buy and sell tunes so would be messy any other way.

Edited February 18, 2015 by JNixon

[John A]

If you send the money for a record by any other means, you still aren't covered for being robbed are you? In fact paypal is the only way you can get your money back from a con man/woman.

 

That's what I keep saying Phil. We never had protection before paypal.

[pow wow mik]

If you send the money for a record by any other means, you still aren't covered for being robbed are you? In fact paypal is the only way you can get your money back from a con man/woman.

 

Most transactions on this site are between individuals rather than dealers. I have never had a problem either buying or selling on this site. All my problems have been on eBay with US sellers who insist on stateing the full selling price on the customs ticket.

I know it's another subject, but that's insane isn't it? Their government said it's illegal to understate the value on a parcel....so they comply like mindless sheep. I want to know : if you sell a record for $300 but put $3 on the customs declaration, how the hell would the government ever know!? Talk about control by fear.

Bidders adjust for the ridiculous 'customs charges' so the sellers are just giving $ to the governments and dodgy middle-men that otherwise would be in their pockets. Incredible situation.

having said that, one seller I took it up with said his insistance on this global shipping crap was due to being ripped off again and again by European buyers pretending they hadn't recieved items. So again, the free-riding scum ruin it for everyone

[Chalky]

If you declare a lower customs value and damage is caused that will probably be all that you can claim for I would have thought?

[Quinvy]

If you declare a lower customs value and damage is caused that will probably be all that you can claim for I would have thought?

These sellers weren't that bothered when we were all sending parcels stuffed full of Dollars over to them with absolutely no guarantee we would ever get the record. 

I agree though that a few mindless buyers have ruined it for everyone. I very rarely bother even looking at ebay any more. And if I decide to bid on something, I contact the seller first to see if he/she will declare a low value. I find that the long established dealers will be fully aware of the situation and have no problem co-operating. 

[pow wow mik]

If you declare a lower customs value and damage is caused that will probably be all that you can claim for I would have thought?

I assume, with standard postage, or standard recorded postage, that there's an insurance value limit anyway isn't there, as on royal mail? So it would only apply to fully insured items, in which case, yes there is no way around it.

But I must have been 10 years on ebay buying constantly and never had any item fully insured and lost maybe 1? So from what I can tell, any actual problems with buying and selling old records were created and then solved by the same sort of people, at honest collectors' expense.

like anything, the bigger it gets, the more the opportunists, middle-men, scammers and parasites get involved, all milking it for what they can

[pow wow mik]

I bought a record off ebay recently and only did so because I really wanted it ; it stated in the listing that they used the global shipping scam so I worked out how much I wanted to pay for the record, then subtracted 20% from my bid to allow for the extortion duty : a reduction of £60 in this case.

So, say the record was worth £300 to me and that ended up being what I paid - all in, the seller actually ended up with - 10% ebay fees, - 4% paypal fees, AND - 20% import extortion, as that's what I reduced my bid by. So the seller is getting about 65% of what I actually pay, around £200 on a £300 record.

That's a pretty big chunk, and what are you getting for it? £60 of that is straight out the seller's pocket compared with a few years ago.

obviously this is on the assumption that all bidders lower their bid accordingly, and I accept it wont apply to bidding within USA. Are other European countries running this scam? What is it, VAT?

Edited February 19, 2015 by pow wow mik

[Brav]

If you declare a lower customs value and damage is caused that will probably be all that you can claim for I would have thought?

Customs Value and Royal Mail Insured Value are 2 altogether different things.

Ie:- If I send for example a new mobile phone to a relative in the USA as a birthday present,

I would tick on the customs declaration form (Gift) and write down it has no commercial value, (because it’s a gift)

But when I post it with Royal mail I tell them that the item is worth £500 and want it insured for that price. If it does get damaged I would be eligible for a full value refund despite it saying no commercial value on the customs declaration form.

Hope this helps

[pow wow mik]

It does Brav, cheers. It all just adds up to one massive con trick enabling them to tax the untaxable. My £60 fee went to a private company, no doubt registered in the Cayman Islands or somewhere!

[NEV]

If you send the money for a record by any other means, you still aren't covered for being robbed are you? In fact paypal is the only way you can get your money back from a con man/woman.

 

Most transactions on this site are between individuals rather than dealers. I have never had a problem either buying or selling on this site. All my problems have been on eBay with US sellers who insist on stateing the full selling price on the customs ticket.

I thought credit cards cover you for any internet shopping rip offs ?