Walter Wilson

[whereismy record]

I bought this a couple of year ago from the US and as this person was meant to be reputable, having many well known dealers and UK DJ's as friends on FB, I took it to be genuine.

 

I recently tried to move it one and have been told that a Wand record would not have been cut on a BELL Acetate. As soon as I found out I removed from. 

 

Can anyone shed anymore light on this, this was the post when he had it listed?

Edited February 17, 2015 by whereismy record

[Ady Croasdell]

Plenty of Wand records would have been cut at Bell or maybe it's just a promo for a DJ. It depends on the provenance and how far you can trace it back; and how reputable those people down the line are/were.

[Steve G]

Well that's not strictly true because Scepter did use Bell Sound on their early stuff. However, two things; firstly they had their own studio by late 1964 and use of Bell Sound was rare after that only dionne and one or two others, and more importantly Walter Wilson was a Philly record leased in from Billy Jackson. Doesn't look too good to me, unless Billy Jackson got it done on a visit to NY.

Edited February 17, 2015 by Steve G

[John Parker]

Was looking at that item myself and trying to figure out if Scepter/Wand would have used Bell at the date of the Walter Wilson record...above comments are helpful

[Ady Croasdell]

Well that's not strictly true because Scepter did use Bell Sound on their early stuff. However, two things; firstly they had their own studio by late 1964 and use of Bell Sound was rare after that only dionne and one or two others, and more importantly Walter Wilson was a Philly record leased in from Billy Jackson. Doesn't look too good to me, unless Billy Jackson got it done on a visit to NY.

True Steve but it was early 67 and Bell Sound was very active, there could have been all sorts of reasons why an acetate could have been cut there. Was it definitely Philly recorded? Billy would have flitted between Philly and New York and could have used Bell for convenience. It's maybe not likely but definitely possible so the provenance is what really matters. Edited February 17, 2015 by ady croasdell

[Still Diggin]

Most of the dodgy looking items I have seen are often mint with no crossing out of text etc. Dodgy people do not usually rub a piece of sandpaper over it , then scribble on it so they get less money for it. All though I have seen the spent teabag trick on the label, and pretend it came out of some waterlogged basement ! Looks like a genuine item to me. I'm happy for that man.   

[Pete S]

Most of the dodgy looking items I have seen are often mint with no crossing out of text etc. Dodgy people do not usually rub a piece of sandpaper over it , then scribble on it so they get less money for it. All though I have seen the spent teabag trick on the label, and pretend it came out of some waterlogged basement ! Looks like a genuine item to me. I'm happy for that man.   

 

Opposite of that - I think the label is stuck on and the lack of any details are very dodgy, plus are there any other Dyno Dynamic acetates on that label?

[Ady Croasdell]

Opposite of that - I think the label is stuck on and the lack of any details are very dodgy, plus are there any other Dyno Dynamic acetates on that label?

It's not Dyno Dynamic Pete, it's Billy Jackson

[Still Diggin]

Come on Pete, you know full well and so do the rest of us that most acetates have little or no info on them, and most of the acetates i've seen and own have stuck on labels as apposed to smooth molded paper then print. I,m still happy for that man.

Andy

[Neckender]

I bought this a couple of year ago from the US and as this person was meant to be reputable, having many well known dealers and UK DJ's as friends on FB, I took it to be genuine.

 

I recently tried to move it one and have been told that a Wand record would not have been cut on a BELL Acetate. As soon as I found out I removed from. 

 

Can anyone shed anymore light on this, this was the post when he had it listed?

You can ask Billy Jackson yourself, as i know a few people on here have his details.

I got the intrumental of the Walter Wilson from Billy sometime in the early 9ts. That is a Virtue 7inch.

[Pete S]

Come on Pete, you know full well and so do the rest of us that most acetates have little or no info on them, and most of the acetates i've seen and own have stuck on labels as apposed to smooth molded paper then print. I,m still happy for that man.

Andy

 

No I mean it looks like it's stuck on top of another one, I know they don't have moulded labels!  

[Pete S]

It's not Dyno Dynamic Pete, it's Billy Jackson

 

Harthon production though isn't it

[Pete S]

Come on Pete, you know full well and so do the rest of us that most acetates have little or no info on them, and most of the acetates i've seen and own have stuck on labels as apposed to smooth molded paper then print. I,m still happy for that man.

Andy

 

Well I'm happy for him too but I'd never personally buy an acetate of two tracks that came out, if not alt versions.

[Quinvy]

You can ask Billy Jackson yourself, as i know a few people on here have his details.

I got the intrumental of the Walter Wilson from Billy sometime in the early 9ts. That is a Virtue 7inch.

I bloody love that instrumental Mark. 

[Ady Croasdell]

You can ask Billy Jackson yourself, as i know a few people on here have his details.

I got the intrumental of the Walter Wilson from Billy sometime in the early 9ts. That is a Virtue 7inch.

But Billy's answer wouldn't be definitive as he was only the producer, there can be other acetates made by publishers or the label staff for promos for DJs or to get the songs to other acts.

[Dave Moore]

It's a Philly production I'd wager but not credited to Harthon, it's Billy's own production company (Be-Jax). But given the time line and the Virtue backing track I'd also wager that it's got Dynodynamics' Luther and Johnny in the mix somewhere?

 

Of course the vocal could have been dubbed in NY?

 

Billy's recollections of the session were sketchy.

 

Regards,

 

Dave

[whereismy record]

Here are some more images, there is no labels stuck on top of others.

 

In one of the pictures I have laid a pen with the tip pointing at a drill hole under the label, which has not been pierced through.

 

Also in advance thank you for all input in this as now worried I have been ripped of and have contacted the seller, However would be happy to send this to someone for verification if they could tell more by having in in hand. 

 

 

No I mean it looks like it's stuck on top of another one, I know they don't have moulded labels!  

 

[Pete S]

Here are some more images, there is no labels stuck on top of others.

 

In one of the pictures I have laid a pen with the tip pointing at a drill hole under the label, which has not been pierced through.

 

Also in advance thank you for all input in this as now worried I have been ripped of and have contacted the seller, However would be happy to send this to someone for verification if they could tell more by having in in hand. 

 

If you can switch the macro button on, on the camera, then you can get really good in focus close ups

[John Parker]

To me it certainly looks like a Kosher Bell Acetate

 

Just the time the track was laid down

 

As Ady says..to be able to track the provenance back is the only way to know

 

Can the original seller (U.S) shed light on this

[Quinvy]

I personally would never buy an acetate of a released record, you will never know the truth.

[whereismy record]

All I have from the seller is "The acetate was a lucky purchase from a record store in LA called Ameoba Records. It was in their "oldies" box"

[Steve G]

True Steve but it was early 67 and Bell Sound was very active, there could have been all sorts of reasons why an acetate could have been cut there. Was it definitely Philly recorded? Billy would have flitted between Philly and New York and could have used Bell for convenience. It's maybe not likely but definitely possible so the provenance is what really matters.

It's always possible, just saying Scepter didn't really use Bell Sound after 64 - Florence thought they were too expensive….The record was a Philly job, and Billy Jackson through and through. He reckoned that as well as the Walter Johnson (Wilson), and the instru. there is another version by Tommy Keith which I have not heard. (I originally thought it was Tommy Keith but apparently not). He did say he was going to put them all on an album, but we'll see. That was nearly 2 years ago…..Sort of the remnants of the Delites by the sounds of it. As Dave Moore says Billy's recollections of it are a bit patchy.

 

Most of the dodgy looking items I have seen are often mint with no crossing out of text etc. Dodgy people do not usually rub a piece of sandpaper over it , then scribble on it so they get less money for it. All though I have seen the spent teabag trick on the label, and pretend it came out of some waterlogged basement ! Looks like a genuine item to me. I'm happy for that man.   

You never saw the scuffed up Empires Bell Sound acetate then? Total fake. And there have been others made to look "authentic" too. 

 

Reality is you can never be 100% sure on something like that, but I remain very sceptical. Sorry.

Edited February 17, 2015 by Steve G

[Still Diggin]

I suppose I am not 100% sure, but it must be some risk to pay to bootleg a 45 then scuff it up like it is in the pictures then hope it does not jump!.By the time you have pissed about like that, you might as well do a wand label look alike , and sell a shed load of them. I had a couple of bell sound acetates some time ago, but cannot remember if they had bell sound stamps. Does this?. Still don't see why it should not be real. there seems to be more sceptics about this one than the jamaican copy that turned up. Don't know why, as that must have been just as easy to boot with that faded mono text. But no Steve, I did not see that Empires disc, not sure what i would think then? . Besides imo Billy jackson  did a whole load of stuff that followed a similar musical pathway in that big city beat ballad mold, and so did many others  'Not now but later' is good, but not a patch on records like Hoagy lands 'reminisce' spectrum or Billy butler 'love grows bitter brunswick. Far more intensity and better lyrics, at a 50th of the price. Personally think the other side is poor. So in reality I just hope somebody has not been ripped off.

Andy

[Ady Croasdell]

I personally would never buy an acetate of a released record, you will never know the truth.

If you buy it from the people involved, artist, producer, labelowner, songwriter, publisher etc you would and if you trust the person who bought it from them and so on down the line.

[Ady Croasdell]

All I have from the seller is "The acetate was a lucky purchase from a record store in LA called Ameoba Records. It was in their "oldies" box"

That simple story leads me to believe its true. A scammer would surely think up something more exotic

[Dave Moore]

The record was a Philly job, and Billy Jackson through and through. He reckoned that as well as the Walter Johnson (Wilson), and the instru. there is another version by Tommy Keith which I have not heard. (I originally thought it was Tommy Keith but apparently not).

 

Has anyone asked Mick Smith or Butch what they played the instrumentals off? (Vitrtue?). Billy did tell me that it was Tommy Keith. It was the one thing he was adamant about? You have some other provenance now Steve?

 

Regards,

 

Dave

[Steve G]

Has anyone asked Mick Smith or Butch what they played the instrumentals off? (Vitrtue?). Billy did tell me that it was Tommy Keith. It was the one thing he was adamant about? You have some other provenance now Steve?

 

Regards,

 

Dave

 

Butch has already said he played the instru off of a Virtue acetate. 

 

Re Tommy Keith, yep my assumption too, but he said it was Walter Johnson. Interestingly that was the name on the tape when the vocal was found too - Scepter stored tapes using artist real names….the "other version" comment was a real surprise to me too. 

 

Guess unless we can pin BJ down on this we'll never know the full story.

Edited February 18, 2015 by Steve G

[Soulskate]

That simple story leads me to believe its true. A scammer would surely think up something more exotic

Hi All, yep I'm afraid that's the case. Nothing more than a lucky buy from a record store(although a pretty big one!)

I'm the seller of this acetate from whom Derek purchased it from some time ago(2013). I found the acetate and a number of other nice items; including a $1500 garage record just a few boxes over. I had to research the acetate to figure out what it was as I didn't immediately recognize it. I have seen/owned many 60's acetates in my day, and there is nothing that would make me think otherwise regarding this one. I can't provide any other provenence than that, same for anything else that I would pick up at shop, show or estate sale...

[Still Diggin]

I am sure there was a Tymes acetate on ebay of the 'A touch of baby' track which came on mgm that Billy jackson co-produced. This was a bell acetate and was from one year previous. So as someone eluded to previously the acetate company may have been one Mr Jackson liked to use for promotional use etc. The item did not sell by the way.

Andy

[Tlscapital]

I am sure there was a Tymes acetate on ebay of the 'A touch of baby' track which came on mgm that Billy jackson co-produced. This was a bell acetate and was from one year previous. So as someone eluded to previously the acetate company may have been one Mr Jackson liked to use for promotional use etc. The item did not sell by the way.

Andy

not MGM Parkway it is !

[Chalky]

I am sure there was a Tymes acetate on ebay of the 'A touch of baby' track which came on mgm that Billy jackson co-produced. This was a bell acetate and was from one year previous. So as someone eluded to previously the acetate company may have been one Mr Jackson liked to use for promotional use etc. The item did not sell by the way.

Andy

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/THE-TYMES-A-TOUCH-OF-BABY-7-034-ONE-SIDED-ACETATE-DOO-WOP-/361126870927?_trkparms=aid%3D444000%26algo%3DSOI.DEFAULT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D25214%26meid%3Dd2cc02899094437695346a11e08506f0%26pid%3D100012%26prg%3D10628%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D10%26sd%3D390831425474&_trksid=p2047675.l2557&nma=true&si=pKIrl%252FtperV5J5B%252FU5uTuSp95QU%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc

[Still Diggin]

https://www.ebay.com/itm/THE-TYMES-A-TOUCH-OF-BABY-7-034-ONE-SIDED-ACETATE-DOO-WOP-/361126870927?_trkparms=aid%3D444000%26algo%3DSOI.DEFAULT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D25214%26meid%3Dd2cc02899094437695346a11e08506f0%26pid%3D100012%26prg%3D10628%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D10%26sd%3D390831425474&_trksid=p2047675.l2557&nma=true&si=pKIrl%252FtperV5J5B%252FU5uTuSp95QU%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc

Thanks for the scan Chalky. Sorry it obviously did sell!

[Ady Croasdell]

I am sure there was a Tymes acetate on ebay of the 'A touch of baby' track which came on mgm that Billy jackson co-produced. This was a bell acetate and was from one year previous. So as someone eluded to previously the acetate company may have been one Mr Jackson liked to use for promotional use etc. The item did not sell by the way.

Andy

Actually 4 months earlier