Where Are All The Bootlegs/reissues Coming From

[pow wow mik]

Please expand Mark- I don't think nuff was said. Why would "boots and reissues" be "killing our scene"? Is our scene collecting and playing original press records? Or enjoying and dancing to Northern soul music?

 

I say the more 45s available for DJs to play the more exposure the music gets so therefore is good for the scene (if the scene is enjoying and dancing to Northern soul music).

 

IMO you're wrong to say it though. The scene, the audience, and music in general, doesn't benefit from having infinite amounts of DJs; it benefits from having very good DJs playing in very good clubs. I.e. quality control.

The scene, any scene, would be best with 6 clubs with 500 at each instead of 30 clubs with 100 at each. The former sort of nights are the sort that have real influence and impact on peoples' lives and wider culture, and therefore also the sort that promote the music in the most credible and appropriate way.

 

Re-issues are only a resource for DJs. If you can give an explanation of how anything is gained in this culture from another person DJing, then go ahead

Edited February 21, 2015 by pow wow mik

[Pete S]

Have many of us not been victims of trying to do it the right way and failing miserably though?  Last time I dj'd, 2011, was asked to do a 'proper Northern' set, failed miserably (when people aren't ready for Silky Hargraves and The Dynamics you know you're in trouble), and next guy on packed the floor with a pressing of "Because Of You".  It might sound like an exaggeration but I was that gutted that I've never dj'd again since that day and every time I'm asked, which is now and again, I just say something about the smoking ban and I don't go out anymore..

[Quinvy]

Have many of us not been victims of trying to do it the right way and failing miserably though?  Last time I dj'd, 2011, was asked to do a 'proper Northern' set, failed miserably (when people aren't ready for Silky Hargraves and The Dynamics you know you're in trouble), and next guy on packed the floor with a pressing of "Because Of You".  It might sound like an exaggeration but I was that gutted that I've never dj'd again since that day and every time I'm asked, which is now and again, I just say something about the smoking ban and I don't go out anymore..

To me that is the fault of the promoter, who doesn't have a clue as to what his guests want to hear, and he shouldn't be promoting.

 

I've heard so many stories like this, and have experianced it myself.

 

I was once asked to do a spot at a do to raise money for a soul fan who had sadly passed away. He had been a regular at my nighter and loved the stuff we played there. Trouble is, most of the crowd at his memorial do were firmly in the oldies camp. My mate actually had to physically prevent punters from accosting me and shouting abuse.

 

I would never do it again. It had cost me a lot of money to travel there, the sound system was terrible, and I would have been better off with a box of pressings.

[Guest GeoffB]

Bootlegs kill the collecting scene more that it effects the DJ's and the dancers.

My question is, if as a DJ you're going to play a boot why not just play an MP3 instead?

 

It's not an access problem, it's not money (last time I checked youtube was free.....) it's just this "vinyl only" BS that ruins it.

 

We have 2 choices, have an event where any format is allowed (and encouraged) or have some way of enforcing a strict OVO rule.

 

If only it was that simply ayh. 

Edited February 21, 2015 by GeoffB

[Wiggyflat]

Heres a message from the Sleaford Mods to all the phoney deejays rinsing MoVe On Up

 

[Dave Moore]

Went from playing real 45s to Bootlegs? 

 

Kinda tells you what the priority is I think.

 

Just another poor 'wannabe DJ' pretending that it's 'all about the music' when in fact it's nothing of the sort. It's all about a desperate need to stand behind crappy kit playing to a few of 'your punters' (bleaurgh!).  Can't get any bookings so start yer gig.

 

Nothing to see here folks... happens week in week out. (And NOT just in UK now either)

 

Regards,

 

Dave

[macca]

Not just in the UK? Is there somewhere I should avoid? ;-)

[Stephen T]

Wow I'm a bit hung over from last night- but what a great time! Thanks to everyone who made it to Bless My Soul at the Hand In hand, Brixton.

 

Pow wow mik thank for your opinion but I'm in London with 8 million people. Last night mine was the only London Soul night advertised on Soul Source. I started it because I want more Soul events to go on to South of the river. Some people came from Guildford as it was the nearest event to them. We routinely get a lot of East-enders as well. I think the more DJs playing Soul the more people will know about and enjoy soul. Daptone records have a slogan I read yesterday and likes : 'Keep getting soul up!' I am a DJ rather than a collector having a go at DJing- which often does not work well. I have been buying and DJing soul records for over 20 years. I have a lot of records but am not one for paying £200 for a record.

 

I have decided to keep the OVO rule as I want to maintain the integrity of the session. I wouldn't play represses at someone else's event so why play them at my own. I can use the represses on my radio show. (92.6 fm on Friday mornings!)

 

Thanks for your kinds words of encouragment Pete and Ady. Ady the reason I thought playing some represses would make it better as it would mean we could play certain records that we don't have on original that are popular. Our DJs are good and we've also been lucky so far at getting great guests DJs each month. Ian Jackson had the floor packed last night with certain big northern tunes that I have on repress but not on original. I have a lot of resources as long as people are happy to hear perhaps something a little different. I am very gutted the recording didn't come out last night- I was using a different lap top and there was a problem with a setting. Won't happen again.

 

Dave Moore lighten up you seem cynical. I agree about the crappy kit remark though. London is especially bad for soul nights with rubbish sound quality. Last Saturday I went to a North London event where one speaker was not working, and the remaining one was rubbish. People had come from as far as Kingston and Croydon for the love of the music and then have to hear it in awful sound quality! Around the country you can find people playing expensive records on cheap equipment- makes no sense. Anyone at Bless My Soul knows we have the big sound system so it sounds very good.

Edited February 22, 2015 by Stephen T

[Wiggyflat]

Stephen I don't think you get it.It looks like a bar gig that the Sleaford Mods are singing about.. Ian Jackson is a great feller.I would like to have seen his face when you opened your laptop to record.There are northern soul nights called Soul On The Square and  Solid Hit Soul. There is Glen with Hole In The Wall.Ann with the oldies alldayers.Walthamstow soul nights.There are numerous x over nights inc Majestic Soul and Filthy Soul run by committed passionate people who are time served and spend a lot of time and money searching and buying records. What is this gap you are filling??? ... 

Edited February 22, 2015 by wiggyflat

[Guest Ivor Jones]

Wow I'm a bit hung over from last night- but what a great time! Thanks to everyone who made it to Bless My Soul at the Hand In hand, Brixton.

 

Pow wow mik thank for your opinion but I'm in London with 8 million people. Last night mine was the only London Soul night advertised on Soul Source. I started it because I want more Soul events to go on to South of the river. Some people came from Guildford as it was the nearest event to them. We routinely get a lot of East-enders as well. I think the more DJs playing Soul the more people will know about and enjoy soul. Daptone records have a slogan I read yesterday and likes : 'Keep getting soul up!' I am a DJ rather than a collector having a go at DJing- which often does not work well. I have been buying and DJing soul records for over 20 years. I have a lot of records but am not one for paying £200 for a record.

 

I have decided to keep the OVO rule as I want to maintain the integrity of the session. I wouldn't play represses at someone else's event so why play them at my own. I can use the represses on my radio show. (92.6 fm on Friday mornings!)

 

Thanks for your kinds words of encouragment Pete and Ady. Ady the reason I thought playing some represses would make it better as it would mean we could play certain records that we don't have on original that are popular. Our DJs are good and we've also been lucky so far at getting great guests DJs each month. Ian Jackson had the floor packed last night with certain big northern tunes that I have on repress but not on original. I have a lot of resources as long as people are happy to hear perhaps something a little different. I am very gutted the recording didn't come out last night- I was using a different lap top and there was a problem with a setting. Won't happen again.

 

Dave Moore lighten up you seem cynical. I agree about the crappy kit remark though. London is especially bad for soul nights with rubbish sound quality. Last Saturday I went to a North London event where one speaker was not working, and the remaining one was rubbish. People had come from as far as Kingston and Croydon for the love of the music and then have to hear it in awful sound quality! Around the country you can find people playing expensive records on cheap equipment- makes no sense. Anyone at Bless My Soul knows we have the big sound system so it sounds very good.

 

Seems you've upset the self appointed Soul Police with your comments on non original vinyl ! Ignore and carry on enjoying what you do Stephen, its got nothing to do with anyone else.

[pow wow mik]

strange advice. He's posted his opinion on a public forum, we've responded on that same forum and you say it's got nothing to do with us. Something illogical in that don't you think?

 

I think the argument that Soul is somehow under-exposed in the UK isn't that convincing to be honest. In the early 90s maybe but not now. You only have to look at the escalating market in originals, or the club listings on here, to see how many DJs are competing for attention.

You say that you're 'not the type' to pay £200 for a record. If that's the case then I just don't think you've got the resources or commitment that it takes to be a good representative of soul music. It's not all about expensive records, but I've never yet known of a good soul DJ who can get away without buying the odd expensive one. Lots of great records simply are £200 or more, even as newies, what have you done for 20 years about such records? Only two options as far as I can see - not play them, in which case your audience are missing out on them, and could be hearing them at other nights, or wait for them to be booted, in which case you're playing them too late.

You've basically admitted that you don't really have the depth of collection to sustain a residency, so there you go - you just don't have the records - plenty who do - leave it to them. I'm not saying that they're all good DJs because they've got rare originals, but I'm not saying you are either.

 

Or don't. The difference between me and the real police - as some people seem confused on this - is that I have no authority over you or any other person, have no means or will to enforce my views in any way or exact punishment.

All I do, and have ever done, is state opinions on the internet as I respect others' freedom to.

 

As a general point - if the soul scene has really got to the point where there's no musical difference between a bootleg DJ and a real DJ, because every track that anyone might want to hear is available on re-issue, then it really is pretty much over and I guess there is no point to the OVO rule. My point of view comes from the scene I DJ on, where there's still a mass of stuff that isn't available on re-issue, despite the best efforts of the bootleggers and re-issuers. I can see it getting to that point though, as there seem to be a few tracks booted every week. When it does, it'll be over as far as I can predict, cos there will be nowhere to progress to and barely anything to distinguish between DJs - the two main pillars of these scenes.

[Stephen T]

cheers Igor- you're right I think

Stephen I don't think you get it.It looks like a bar gig that the Sleaford Mods are singing about.. Ian Jackson is a great feller.I would like to have seen his face when you opened your laptop to record.There are northern soul nights called Soul On The Square and  Solid Hit Soul. There is Glen with Hole In The Wall.Ann with the oldies alldayers.Walthamstow soul nights.There are numerous x over nights inc Majestic Soul and Filthy Soul run by committed passionate people who are time served and spend a lot of time and money searching and buying records. What is this gap you are filling??? ... 

I know those events and go to them mate. Big gap in South London mind you. Lots going on North of the River. I think there is space for my thing down South- we'll see

[Wiggyflat]

I live in Forest Hill around the corner.Can you post a a playlist up of what got played yesterday.

[Stephen T]

OK thanks Pow Pow Mik. There will always be a lot to play that isn't booted. Stuff is not being booted every week. Every month maybe a new release comes out. Don't worry about the scene- people will always like dancing to rare soul. Also don't worry about me 'playing them too late' as the records are old anyway so I think it's whenever we get round to it. I'm happy with my collection and am fine with my decision to stick to the originals- my resources are fine and I'm sure I'll continue to get good guests to help out each month. I'm not after Ady's job- I'm just trying a little free thing in a South London local.

[Stephen T]

I live in Forest Hill around the corner.Can you post a a playlist up of what got played yesterday.

Why so you can see if it's good enough for you grace us with your presence next month? It was 5 hours of music and the recording messed up this time. There's recordings of previous sessions here- www.mixcloud.com/stephent/

Music policy OVO Rare and underplayed across the board soul

[Godzilla]

Stuff is not being booted every week. Every month maybe a new release comes out.

In roughly the last three weeks, not counting any legit Kent/Outasite releases we've had lookalike boots of:

Billy Arnell (Holly)

Marie Knight You Lie / treat a girl (Musicor)

Shane Martin  / Lynne Randell (Epic)

Milton Wright (Alston)

Magnetics (Bonnie)

Lucky Charms (Sugar Hill)

Certainly more than one a month...

[Wiggyflat]

Why so you can see if it's good enough for you grace us with your presence next month? It was 5 hours of music and the recording messed up this time. There's recordings of previous sessions here- www.mixcloud.com/stephent/

Music policy OVO Rare and underplayed across the board soul

I have checked it out.Great music, loads of reggae.....but it is nothing different from what a  hundred pubs and bars all over the country are doing and those pubs and bars are probably fuelling this "vinyl" bootleg industry because there is such a dearth in current popular culture that if you are not into banjos and mountain people beards soul,funk r&b and "vinyl" is the place to be.The passionate and time served people are being edged out by the swamp of bar  and pub gigs and mass dilution.The words across the board spell dread to me everything for everyone soul,ska,latin,mid tempo,reggae by Johnny come latelys and bootleg Dave's.

Edited February 22, 2015 by wiggyflat

[Ady Croasdell]

Stephen, that's great that you're sticking with OVO and getting good guests. I can think of a dozen in London with great collections who would love to guest. And you can do the role I do and fill in the gaps with all the brilliant oldies and semi-known that are less than a ton each, there 's bundles of them. Book Ivor for your next one and tell him I sent you

[Dave Moore]

Dave Moore lighten up you seem cynical. I agree about the crappy kit remark though. London is especially bad for soul nights with rubbish sound quality. Last Saturday I went to a North London event where one speaker was not working, and the remaining one was rubbish. People had come from as far as Kingston and Croydon for the love of the music and then have to hear it in awful sound quality! Around the country you can find people playing expensive records on cheap equipment- makes no sense. Anyone at Bless My Soul knows we have the big sound system so it sounds very good.

 

Moi... cynical?   

 

Absolutely!

 

It's all about opinions I guess. I have an intense dislike of  bootleg 'DJs'. Especially ones that use the, 'It's all about the music' as a smoke and mirrors excuse for what they do. That ain't never gonna change Stephen.

 

Proper records by proper people will always get my vote, so if I'm in town at any time and yer gigs on... I'll make an effort to get there. 

 

Regards,

 

Dave

[Guest Ivor Jones]

strange advice. He's posted his opinion on a public forum, we've responded on that same forum and you say it's got nothing to do with us. Something illogical in that don't you think?

 

I think the argument that Soul is somehow under-exposed in the UK isn't that convincing to be honest. In the early 90s maybe but not now. You only have to look at the escalating market in originals, or the club listings on here, to see how many DJs are competing for attention.

You say that you're 'not the type' to pay £200 for a record. If that's the case then I just don't think you've got the resources or commitment that it takes to be a good representative of soul music. It's not all about expensive records, but I've never yet known of a good soul DJ who can get away without buying the odd expensive one. Lots of great records simply are £200 or more, even as newies, what have you done for 20 years about such records? Only two options as far as I can see - not play them, in which case your audience are missing out on them, and could be hearing them at other nights, or wait for them to be booted, in which case you're playing them too late.

You've basically admitted that you don't really have the depth of collection to sustain a residency, so there you go - you just don't have the records - plenty who do - leave it to them. I'm not saying that they're all good DJs because they've got rare originals, but I'm not saying you are either.

 

Or don't. The difference between me and the real police - as some people seem confused on this - is that I have no authority over you or any other person, have no means or will to enforce my views in any way or exact punishment.

All I do, and have ever done, is state opinions on the internet as I respect others' freedom to.

 

As a general point - if the soul scene has really got to the point where there's no musical difference between a bootleg DJ and a real DJ, because every track that anyone might want to hear is available on re-issue, then it really is pretty much over and I guess there is no point to the OVO rule. My point of view comes from the scene I DJ on, where there's still a mass of stuff that isn't available on re-issue, despite the best efforts of the bootleggers and re-issuers. I can see it getting to that point though, as there seem to be a few tracks booted every week. When it does, it'll be over as far as I can predict, cos there will be nowhere to progress to and barely anything to distinguish between DJs - the two main pillars of these scenes.

 

Touched a nerve with the Soul Police comment eh ? Well Mik, I beg to differ. I think you do see yourself as some sort Judge and jury as to whats acceptable for others to play from what I see of your comments on multiple threads on this forum.

You always seem to be spitting your dummy out regarding bootlegs/reissues as though its the end of the world. There are lots of people who enjoy Soul music[Northern or otherwise] who have no real desire to be part of this strange little scene.  Loads of people who just like to buy and play records but really don't care if they're original or not, they just enjoy the music. I know loads. Whats wrong with that ? When i first started buying soul records I bought loads of reissues and boots alongside the proper  cheaper originals just like everybody else. Theres no shame in it at all. I have collected for a long time now and as anyone who really knows me will testify,I take it very seriously indeed. However, the way I see it, my love for the music would probably have never happened were it not for those sounds I bought when starting off. So there is proof if you need it that something positive can come out of buying boots. You have to start somewhere. However, even though I'm serious about my music,what I would never do is look down my nose at someone because they play some reissues and boots. Thats the thing about this music Mik, no one owns and controls it even though some of us would like to.

I've read this whole thread and what I see happening in this case is just yet another example of established collectors/buyers ganging up on someone for having  the cheek to admit to playing reissues. I don't know Stephen at all but I can totally get his point. Whats wrong with him playing some records to people ? 

 The serious collectors will always gravitate towards likeminded individuals and events and I can't see this changing anytime soon. However, there is an awful tendency from some to think that because they shelled out loads for a few old records they somehow have some control over the music. They don't. Its bigger than all of us…..

One more thing too. If Stephen is playing regularly to lots of people, he is way more influential than many stay at home collectors,no matter how good their record collections are. Thats the thing with DJing though isn't it ? The minute you start doing it the daggers are out ! As Stephen pointed out earlier though, there obviously is a gap in his area for a soul night like this.

I just don't understand why some have to be so negative about it ?

[Pete S]

Touched a nerve with the Soul Police comment eh ? Well Mik, I beg to differ. I think you do see yourself as some sort Judge and jury as to whats acceptable for others to play from what I see of your comments on multiple threads on this forum.

You always seem to be spitting your dummy out regarding bootlegs/reissues as though its the end of the world. There are lots of people who enjoy Soul music[Northern or otherwise] who have no real desire to be part of this strange little scene.  Loads of people who just like to buy and play records but really don't care if they're original or not, they just enjoy the music. I know loads. Whats wrong with that ? When i first started buying soul records I bought loads of reissues and boots alongside the proper  cheaper originals just like everybody else. Theres no shame in it at all. I have collected for a long time now and as anyone who really knows me will testify,I take it very seriously indeed. However, the way I see it, my love for the music would probably have never happened were it not for those sounds I bought when starting off. So there is proof if you need it that something positive can come out of buying boots. You have to start somewhere. However, even though I'm serious about my music,what I would never do is look down my nose at someone because they play some reissues and boots. Thats the thing about this music Mik, no one owns and controls it even though some of us would like to.

I've read this whole thread and what I see happening in this case is just yet another example of established collectors/buyers ganging up on someone for having  the cheek to admit to playing reissues. I don't know Stephen at all but I can totally get his point. Whats wrong with him playing some records to people ? 

 The serious collectors will always gravitate towards likeminded individuals and events and I can't see this changing anytime soon. However, there is an awful tendency from some to think that because they shelled out loads for a few old records they somehow have some control over the music. They don't. Its bigger than all of us…..

One more thing too. If Stephen is playing regularly to lots of people, he is way more influential than many stay at home collectors,no matter how good their record collections are. Thats the thing with DJing though isn't it ? The minute you start doing it the daggers are out ! As Stephen pointed out earlier though, there obviously is a gap in his area for a soul night like this.

I just don't understand why some have to be so negative about it ?

 

My own collection, if you could call it that, consists of about 250 US records and 50 UK records (now that I don't actually collect anything anymore) I'd say out of my 250 US records, there are about 20 originals, mainly in the £5 to £40 bracket, all the rest are reissues, bootlegs, pressings, carvers, and I love them dearly!  But meanwhile, I have a list of 50 originals ready to go out tomorrow, from £10 to £250, and a few thousand other US originals in this same room.  I simply cannot afford to own rare original records when my job is supposed to be that of someone who sells them!  This happened to me when I collected the Island label, my missus kept asking why we had no spare money, eventually I confessed I had over 250 records on the same label which had cost me thousands, I swear she deliberately got pregnant to force me to sell them  My point is that as you are all sick of hearing by now, I just love vinyl records, and I firmly believe it's horses for courses, if someone asked me to dj at an upfront venue, I'd take originals, if it was a local youth club revival, I'd take a box of probably mainly reissue oldies.  If Stephen hasn't got a crowd made up of lurking "deck vultures", he may as well play wheat he likes..

Edited February 22, 2015 by Pete S

[pow wow mik]

You've touched a nerve comparing me to police yes, as you have comparing me to a judge and jury. All those institutions have authority over others and exercise that authority by controlling and punishing people. Yet, strangely, I expect that that doesn't offend you. If I am judge and jury then I am only arresting, trying and convicting people in my own mind, as is anyone expressing a critical opinion of anything.

Are you not acting as police, judge and jury by criticising me? Why is your objection to my opinion ok, but mine to bootlegs somehow an act of authority?

 

I object to re-issues and bootlegs because I think that whole market simply enables people who don't have the requisite passion, commitment and resources to represent the music in a manner that it deserves. It is an industry dedicated to short cut DJing - is that really a useful service to culture?

 

From my experience of such DJs, they let others do the hard work - finding and playing records first - and then jump on the bandwagon to fullfill some very personal ego trip. I don't like that sort of free-riding in any field, it dilutes the total level of quality.

Am I allowed to express that opinion or what?

 

Funny how you seem more offended by my objecting to lazy DJs then by people making and selling products that involve a theft of other peoples' work.

 

I think the argument that 'people are enjoying themselves', or 'not harming others', as a blanket defence of anything, is a moribund one. People might be enjoying themselves and not harming others on 'The Voice', but it's still undoubtedly a big steaming pile of soul-destroying shit-steam.

 

I never said how much I care about this subject either - you've assumed that. The site is dedicated to Soul music though, so within that realm, it's as serious as anything else.

 

If you disagree with me, present an argument in defence of laying fake records but don't a) question my freedom to have an opinion or b) suggest that by having an opinion I am somehow bullying or oppressing people.

 

If the majority of people who currently do anything creative or imaginative in the world of soul music agree with me then I'd seriously consider that there might be some value in it.

Edited February 22, 2015 by pow wow mik

[Pete S]

 

If the majority of people who currently do anything creative or imaginative in the world of soul music agree with me then I'd seriously consider that there might be some value in it.

 

But you have to look at the demographic Mik, the 'serious' people are outnumbered by the 'casual' people by ten to one when you take the country as a whole, for everyone interested in artists and labels and newies, there are nine people more interested in getting the last pint in before dancing to That Driving Beat.  Live and let live might be a cliche but with the death rate amongst people of my age being very worrying, I think people really have lost interest in the purer soul scene that we used to have.

[pow wow mik]

But you have to look at the demographic Mik, the 'serious' people are outnumbered by the 'casual' people by ten to one when you take the country as a whole, for everyone interested in artists and labels and newies, there are nine people more interested in getting the last pint in before dancing to That Driving Beat.  Live and let live might be a cliche but with the death rate amongst people of my age being very worrying, I think people really have lost interest in the purer soul scene that we used to have.

 

Maybe Pete, but what you're saying is 'just accept things the way they are'. But why? Doesn't giving up on standards just lead to a general degeneration of culture - as we're witnessing now.

In most respects in life, I am one of the 90% of casual people, who do nothing to improve or maintain standards in anything, but just drift along not caring much. But in every field there are others who care and are passionate, whether it's about gardening, architecture, ancient Egyptian relics, quantum mechanics or whatever, and I'm glad there are people in each field like that.

In the field of the preservation and presentation of vintage black music, I am one of those who care and are passionate. Should I just give up, play a load of boots and piss around like it's all some silly trivial birthday party?

 

You can't say passion and commitment mattered to the scene in the 70s but doesn't now. It always does.

It's like any entertainment. TV for example. People want to watch TV - you give them shite TV, they'll watch it. You don't give the shite TV, they'll watch good TV. They're not all discerning so the choice is actually being made at the product end.

[Woodbutcher]

" I object to re-issues and bootlegs because I think that whole market simply enables people who don't have the requisite passion, commitment and resources to represent the music in a manner that it deserves. "

 

If we mere mortal poor folk had to rely on the moneyed elite to provide all the dj'ing spots the 'scene' would be a very poor thing , yes it's nice to know that the record playing is a "real one" but as most folk know who's got what as far as the super rarities are concerned does it matter that much ... ?

 

The first niter I recall being promoted as OVO was the "Rarest of the Rare" at the Ritz somewhere mid-90's , yes there were some nice things brought out for a bit of fresh air but were the majority of the crowd impressed ... no they were out on the floor in their own little bubble having a great time ...  

[Pete S]

There are countless people over the last 15 years who are only dj-ing at venues because basically they are rich and have bought themselves into the game, they think because they have the records, they are entitled to get top billing.  It's not as simple as that.  If I won the lottery and spent it all on the worlds rarest Northern sounds, I can guarantee you I would soon be getting top dj spots, makes no difference if I couldn't actually put a spot together, come on people admit it, we all know dj's like this...and am not getting at anyone on here or anywhere else in particular, but it is a known fact that you can buy yourself into this game...so if you have integrity and are at the forefront of discovering new sounds, you can still be caught up by the rich boys who never got off their sofa to obtain a record.

Edited February 22, 2015 by Pete S

[Guest Ivor Jones]

There are countless people over the last 15 years who are only dj-ing at venues because basically they are rich and have bought themselves into the game, they think because they have the records, they are entitled to get top billing.  It's not as simple as that.  If I won the lottery and spent it all on the worlds rarest Northern sounds, I can guarantee you I would soon be getting top dj spots, makes no difference if I couldn't actually put a spot together, come on people admit it, we all know dj's like this...and am not getting at anyone on here or anywhere else in particular, but it is a known fact that you can buy yourself into this game.

Aint that the truth….

[Wiggyflat]

" I object to re-issues and bootlegs because I think that whole market simply enables people who don't have the requisite passion, commitment and resources to represent the music in a manner that it deserves. "

 

If we mere mortal poor folk had to rely on the moneyed elite to provide all the dj'ing spots the 'scene' would be a very poor thing , yes it's nice to know that the record playing is a "real one" but as most folk know who's got what as far as the super rarities are concerned does it matter that much ... ?

 

The first niter I recall being promoted as OVO was the "Rarest of the Rare" at the Ritz somewhere mid-90's , yes there were some nice things brought out for a bit of fresh air but were the majority of the crowd impressed ... no they were out on the floor in their own little bubble having a great time ...  

I was there......but I was there because I had to be because I could not have heard the records played anywhere else.I heard Butch play that I Wanna Know one off.Amazing record that has still not been made available to be saturated at every bar gig in the UK.It took effort to travel up there but it was the only place i could hear the rarest of the rare played out as the new bootleg shitwave had not started.It takes effort to find these records...when he was playing it you knew he probably had been on his knees in some warehouse somewhere or had to flog a few records to buy it not do a buy it now on ebay.    

[Chalky]

If we mere mortal poor folk had to rely on the moneyed elite to provide all the dj'ing spots the 'scene' would be a very poor thing , yes it's nice to know that the record playing is a "real one" but as most folk know who's got what as far as the super rarities are concerned does it matter that much ... ?

 

 

 

If you can't do it right as they say don't do it at all, leave it to those that can   And there's plenty who can and do, not just a few, there are more than enough Dj's to satisfy this scene whether it be oldies or newies.

Edited February 22, 2015 by chalky

[Pete S]

I think the thing that disappoints me a lot is, even local, you get someone with money who sets up their own venue, installs themselves as the top dj and invites all their mates, it gets bigger and becomes popular but the guy who put on the nights still has himself as the main dj, above his guest dj's even, and nobody has got the balls to tell him he's sh*te.

[Stephen T]

In roughly the last three weeks, not counting any legit Kent/Outasite releases we've had lookalike boots of:

Billy Arnell (Holly)

Marie Knight You Lie / treat a girl (Musicor)

Shane Martin  / Lynne Randell (Epic)

Milton Wright (Alston)

Magnetics (Bonnie)

Lucky Charms (Sugar Hill)

Certainly more than one a month...

wow- you keep up to date. Some of these are re-boots lol. I'd be up for the Lucky charms!

[Stephen T]

Stephen, that's great that you're sticking with OVO and getting good guests. I can think of a dozen in London with great collections who would love to guest. And you can do the role I do and fill in the gaps with all the brilliant oldies and semi-known that are less than a ton each, there 's bundles of them. Book Ivor for your next one and tell him I sent you

Cheers Ady- will do. Ivor!!

[Godzilla]

wow- you keep up to date. Some of these are re-boots lol. I'd be up for the Lucky charms!

Not really  - I just know to use a search tool

Mind you - if you're thinking of playing stuff like Lucky Charms I'm glad I only visit London occasionally

[Labeat]

I was there......but I was there because I had to be because I could not have heard the records played anywhere else.I heard Butch play that I Wanna Know one off.Amazing record that has still not been made available to be saturated at every bar gig in the UK.It took effort to travel up there but it was the only place i could hear the rarest of the rare played out as the new bootleg shitwave had not started.It takes effort to find these records...when he was playing it you knew he probably had been on his knees in some warehouse somewhere or had to flog a few records to buy it not do a buy it now on ebay.    

 

I was there..... Just one after another of awesome Northern, each time i went. In all the years of listening to Soul music this place for me had the perfect consistency of tunes..... Paradise lost

[Paulb]

Seems odd that Mik is being attacked for wanting integrity in anyone flying the flag for soul music. If Stephen wants to play boots at his night then that's his choice. But I don't think he should discuss it on forum for rare soul fans and expect any positive feedback at all.

We live in an age where everything is watered down. Keep the standards ultra high in the collection of soul records or don't do it at all. That's the reason why I gave up buying because I no longer had the time or money to do it properly.

All this soul police talk is complete and utter bullshit. It just amazes me that so few people really genuinely get what its all about.

[pow wow mik]

There are countless people over the last 15 years who are only dj-ing at venues because basically they are rich and have bought themselves into the game, they think because they have the records, they are entitled to get top billing.  It's not as simple as that.  If I won the lottery and spent it all on the worlds rarest Northern sounds, I can guarantee you I would soon be getting top dj spots, makes no difference if I couldn't actually put a spot together, come on people admit it, we all know dj's like this...and am not getting at anyone on here or anywhere else in particular, but it is a known fact that you can buy yourself into this game...so if you have integrity and are at the forefront of discovering new sounds, you can still be caught up by the rich boys who never got off their sofa to obtain a record.

I agree with all that, but we always see this argument dragged out its simply irrelevent. When comparing two sets, you can only compare the best of one set with the best of another. What is proved by comparing the worst ovo djs with the best re'issue djs? Neither should be djing.

Of course ovo is only one factor to making a dj. The trophy djs may be just as unimaginative as djs, but that doesn't elevate re-issue rockers any.

[Guest son of stan]

I really fancy reading a bit of Charles Dickens. But unfortunately, what with cost of food and rent and utilities, etc my budget just won't stretch to those magazines his work was originally serialised in. Let alone the original manuscripts! So I'm just gonna sit here and feel guilty that i lack the commitment and dedication...

[Guest ephraim]

Are you aware of art galleries that hang prints of original paintings on the wall, just so the public can see them?

no, neither am I, so why should a bootleg be accepted?

 

I think this is a good point, although if an exciting painting (say, a Monet) were discovered that most people had never seen or heard of, I would be happy to get to see a reproduction of it (properly distinguished from the other original paintings, of course) in a gallery. Would I go to a gallery *just* to see reproductions? Of course not. But if I were interested in being around other people who appreciated paintings, and a gallery containing only reproductions happened to provide a natural social venue for those people, I might go along. Maybe music venues where boots and reissues are played are like that.

[Jnixon]

wow- you keep up to date. Some of these are re-boots lol. I'd be up for the Lucky charms!

 

what venue do you do your night at, how many does it hold and how many come?

[Guest son of stan]

I think this is a good point, although if an exciting painting (say, a Monet) were discovered that most people had never seen or heard of, I would be happy to get to see a reproduction of it (properly distinguished from the other original paintings, of course) in a gallery. Would I go to a gallery *just* to see reproductions? Of course not. But if I were interested in being around other people who appreciated paintings, and a gallery containing only reproductions happened to provide a natural social venue for those people, I might go along. Maybe music venues where boots and reissues are played are like that.

Actually before photography, this is exactly the way many people saw great works of art. You would get painters who spent their entire lives doing copies

[Guest son of stan]

I think this is a good point, although if an exciting painting (say, a Monet) were discovered that most people had never seen or heard of, I would be happy to get to see a reproduction of it (properly distinguished from the other original paintings, of course) in a gallery. Would I go to a gallery *just* to see reproductions? Of course not. But if I were interested in being around other people who appreciated paintings, and a gallery containing only reproductions happened to provide a natural social venue for those people, I might go along. Maybe music venues where boots and reissues are played are like that.

Actually before photography, this is exactly the way many people saw great works of art. You would get painters who spent their entire lives doing copies

And

[Ian Dewhirst]

Ian 

 

Since they ended up with EMI UK, Warner now have this for the world.

 

Not Universal then Dean? I thought Universal retained all the U.S. repertoire and Warner got the all UK repertoire? Bloody complicated these days.....

 

Ian D 

[Mellorful]

You've touched a nerve comparing me to police yes, as you have comparing me to a judge and jury. All those institutions have authority over others and exercise that authority by controlling and punishing people. Yet, strangely, I expect that that doesn't offend you. If I am judge and jury then I am only arresting, trying and convicting people in my own mind, as is anyone expressing a critical opinion of anything.

Are you not acting as police, judge and jury by criticising me? Why is your objection to my opinion ok, but mine to bootlegs somehow an act of authority?

 

I object to re-issues and bootlegs because I think that whole market simply enables people who don't have the requisite passion, commitment and resources to represent the music in a manner that it deserves. It is an industry dedicated to short cut DJing - is that really a useful service to culture?

 

From my experience of such DJs, they let others do the hard work - finding and playing records first - and then jump on the bandwagon to fullfill some very personal ego trip. I don't like that sort of free-riding in any field, it dilutes the total level of quality.

Am I allowed to express that opinion or what?

 

Funny how you seem more offended by my objecting to lazy DJs then by people making and selling products that involve a theft of other peoples' work.

 

I think the argument that 'people are enjoying themselves', or 'not harming others', as a blanket defence of anything, is a moribund one. People might be enjoying themselves and not harming others on 'The Voice', but it's still undoubtedly a big steaming pile of soul-destroying shit-steam.

 

I never said how much I care about this subject either - you've assumed that. The site is dedicated to Soul music though, so within that realm, it's as serious as anything else.

 

If you disagree with me, present an argument in defence of laying fake records but don't a) question my freedom to have an opinion or b) suggest that by having an opinion I am somehow bullying or oppressing people.

 

If the majority of people who currently do anything creative or imaginative in the world of soul music agree with me then I'd seriously consider that there might be some value in it.

I cant justify bootlegs and I blame the record companies for making it difficult to legitimately reissue tunes.

Reissues - all the royalties and taxes have been paid, in the case of rare records the artist probably made more money from the reissue than they did from the original release. Therefore, its good for the artist, many British issues have helped the artist when the money made in the USA was minimal and gets them performances over here to supplement their meagre old age income.    

Not everybody has the financial resources to buy an original Eddie Parker, Lou Pride, Salvadors and Tomangoes but that doesn't mean they are inferior behind the decks if they have legitimate reissues or British issues. Ady has released some awesome tunes on the Kent label and if he chooses to play his Kent releases then thats okay with me. 

OVO is preferable but not essential, NS is a dance scene, the DJ is a facilitator on the dancefloor. Some events need to be OVO but at others the audience has little or no interest in OVO and just want to be reminded of their youth and get that buzz on the dancefloor.

There would be no scene without the audience of dancers and many are more concerned about the company they are in, bar prices, their kids, their health, or cream for their hemorroids than whether the DJ is playing OVO.

Now where did I leave that bloody cream....

[pow wow mik]

I really fancy reading a bit of Charles Dickens. But unfortunately, what with cost of food and rent and utilities, etc my budget just won't stretch to those magazines his work was originally serialised in. Let alone the original manuscripts! So I'm just gonna sit here and feel guilty that i lack the commitment and dedication...

 

If Charles Dickens books were neglected cultural artefacts, and the reading of Charles Dickens books was a meaningful social activity and folk culture, and if those most dedicated to Charles Dickens books were regularly finding and reading previously forgotten or unknown Charles Dickens manuscripts....then it would be a sensible analogy.

 

And if those things were the case, I'd be rooting for the Charles Dickens enthusiasts who were responsible for a deep and thorough understanding of Charles Dickens, not the tool who watched Oliver and then wrote about it on Facebook

[pow wow mik]

I cant justify bootlegs and I blame the record companies for making it difficult to legitimately reissue tunes.

Reissues - all the royalties and taxes have been paid, in the case of rare records the artist probably made more money from the reissue than they did from the original release. Therefore, its good for the artist, many British issues have helped the artist when the money made in the USA was minimal and gets them performances over here to supplement their meagre old age income.    

Not everybody has the financial resources to buy an original Eddie Parker, Lou Pride, Salvadors and Tomangoes but that doesn't mean they are inferior behind the decks if they have legitimate reissues or British issues. Ady has released some awesome tunes on the Kent label and if he chooses to play his Kent releases then thats okay with me. 

OVO is preferable but not essential, NS is a dance scene, the DJ is a facilitator on the dancefloor. Some events need to be OVO but at others the audience has little or no interest in OVO and just want to be reminded of their youth and get that buzz on the dancefloor.

There would be no scene without the audience of dancers and many are more concerned about the company they are in, bar prices, their kids, their health, or cream for their hemorroids than whether the DJ is playing OVO.

Now where did I leave that bloody cream....

 

I do agree with that, and it's a fair description of how things are, but I don't have to like it!

I don't like that people want to be reminded of their youth to such an extent - live now, move on.

I don't like that this badass music should become the unthreatening soundtrack to folks talking about bloody kids and haemorrhoids.

Wasn't pop music made for people who aren't very cool and don't really care?

[Ian Dewhirst]

Wasn't pop music made for people who aren't very cool and don't really care?

 

No. Every record ever recorded was generally made to sell. Even Eddie Parker and the Mello Souls. What makes 'em pop records is when they became popular enough to make the charts and enough people bought 'em.

 

Ian D 

[Guest son of stan]

If Charles Dickens books were neglected cultural artefacts, and the reading of Charles Dickens books was a meaningful social activity and folk culture, and if those most dedicated to Charles Dickens books were regularly finding and reading previously forgotten or unknown Charles Dickens manuscripts....then it would be a sensible analogy.

And if those things were the case, I'd be rooting for the Charles Dickens enthusiasts who were responsible for a deep and thorough understanding of Charles Dickens, not the tool who watched Oliver and then wrote about it on Facebook

You obvs aren't aware of the whole Northern Dickens Scene then?

Take a day off from being so intense, eh?

Edited February 24, 2015 by son of stan

[Calvinlee]

OVO all the way!! If you can't afford the tunes then there's YouTube.. I notice a few have mentioned the "rich boys" who buy these big originals how can ya knock em?? If they're willing to pay 4k for a record then doesn't that show how much the music means to them?

Getting back on topic where are they getting the label scans and perfect audio? https://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/141565597926?nav=SEARCH that new magnetics boot is very naughty both sides!! Most are only single sided.. This guy seems to have em all first

[Mtay9778]

It may have already been mentioned, I've yet to read back through some of the later comments but I think these bootlegs and pressings are damaging the scene and the OVO nights that are going but for how much longer I don't know. I think with the recent limelight there's been an influx of people onto the scene which was bound to happen, but they need educating, and need educating fast. Too many nights now playing boots and pressings with the guy behind the decks in his Wigan Casino shirt who never actually went. He's hardly the chap to educate them is he. There needs to be yet another documentary or film but this time emphasising the lengths the likes of a John Anderson and others went to, to bring back records from the states. Being chased out of Detroit, why the DJs had to cover up so many records, how it's traditionally an original vinyl scene. Too many people don't get it, they don't care! But maybe if educated a little they would care, and would understand why people feel so strongly for OVO. Anybody can play off a laptop, can go and buy a load off pressings. It works though, I've seen it work. But the folks just down the road playing OVO can't always compete as it's so accessible to go and buy a load of new pressings to play. I know certain DJs have certain favourite tunes of mine, I'll look out for where they're on so I can go and hear it. That's how it used to be right? That's how it should be!

[Guest GeoffB]

I really fancy reading a bit of Charles Dickens. But unfortunately, what with cost of food and rent and utilities, etc my budget just won't stretch to those magazines his work was originally serialised in. Let alone the original manuscripts! So I'm just gonna sit here and feel guilty that i lack the commitment and dedication...

 

But that's not whats happening. Someone is going out with a new (and illegal) Charles Dickens book, calming it is original and then reading it to people who don't realize it's a bootleg. Not quite the same, is it?