How Big Was The Northern Soul Scene In The 70S ?

[Stateside]

Thanks for that. I saw Edwin Starr twice in one night at the Victoriana and the Mardi. In 71' I remember him playing Jean Knight Mr Big Stuff, King Floyd -Groove Me, Friends of Distinction -Grazing in the grass, Delfonics etc and David Ruffin Don't stop loving me, some as imports, so it was all of its time really.

Kev

Edited February 17, 2015 by stateside

[Zed1]

There were less people on the scene in the 70's, but they were 'more' into the music. Unlike today where there are more people on the scene, but they are less into the music.

[Wiggyflat]

Zed there are less people into the music but more people into big trousers

[Guest]

It seems a lot bigger nowardays , however its not the same thing at all .

Ahh, there are certainly more events & because we're a lot older (& a few have grown up) now, most of us travel by "reliable" cars, taking away the uncertainty of are we even going to get there? Part of the nights event was the train, bus or hitch hiking, & getting away from your own what seemed then "dull" environments.

You're right it's not the same, but...............................

Still love it tho'!

[ChasKing]

I used to go to the Mardi Gras in Liverpool and did hear Billy Butler play some Northern plus other club soul as there was no difference at the time ! Also went to see Inez and Charlie Foxx here.

[Davebanks]

to get back to the question I think there where more people on the scene in the 70's. It seems bigger today because of the internet and the ease with which you can track down sounds on youtube etc.

 

Back then we had hardly seen USA import let alone heard many. and the only way to hear stuff was to go to a club or hang around a mate of a mates house leafing thru his records.

 

Just a little story might illustrate; 

my girlfriend (now wife) went to Liverpools NE tech in the early 1970s and came home one day with tales of a guy who had a cassette player (not that common then) on it he played a tape of a club in the midlands. She tells us that two of the tracks are killers, the Wonderettes and a powerful instrumental called she thinks "exodus". 

Next day we set off for the tech (a long bus ride away) track down said guy with cassette and are blown away by "exodus" he tells us it can only be heard at the Catacombs. Next weekend four of us set off for the Catacombs in Wolverhampton with not a clue where it is and sleeping on relatives floors. We came back telling everyone about "exus trek" being the greatest instrumental we had ever heard. Took 6 months before we even new there was a vocal.

 

I think back then there was more desire to get out there and go where no one had gone before, now you can do it in your bedroom.

 

Dave Banks

[Guest Russell H]

A few things I've wondered, based on things I've read over the years -

 

Spotting the d.s - the description I've always read is that they stood out, you could spot them a mile off, etc. How did they stand out? Was it what they were wearing? How they acted?

 

When the scene started to go overground (with things like Wigan's Ovation or the This England documentary), did the "divs" just flock to the Casino, or were they everywhere?

 

How likely were you to hear mainstream, commercial soul in amongst the obscurities and rarities? Surely something like I Can't Help Myself [sugar Pie, Honey Bunch] would be a better fit than something like the Joe 90 theme?

 

How prevalent was the lack of alcohol? Was that just for places that operated outside normal licensing hours, or was that seen as part of the scene even in places that were open earlier?

[Frankie Crocker]

 

It was big enough to regularly break pure Northern records into the Top 30 on a regular basis in the first half of the 1970s...

 

No.1 The Tams - Hey Girl Don't Bother Me July 1971

No.11 Archie Bell & The Drells - Here I Go Again Oct 1972

No.3 R. Dean Taylor - There's a Ghost In My House May 1974

No.17 Wayne Gibson - Under My Thumb Nov 1974

No.26 The Javells - Goodbye Nothing To Say Nov 1974

No.5 The Trammps - Hold Back The Night Oct 1975

No.22 Rodger Collins - You Sexy Sugar Plum April 1976

 

Ian D 

 

Hi Ian. Joe public put The Tams and Archie Bell towards the top of the charts. R. Dean Taylor was played at Wigan in 1974 but most of the sales were probably on a novelty basis to ordinary record collectors. Wayne Gibson and The Javelles were big Wigan sounds that crossed over to the general public during a commercial period when Wigan was seen to be plumbing the depths for cash sales. All in all, it was still an underground scene for a tiny minority until Footsee was on Top of the Pops and even then, the number of tourists didn't actually double the numbers at events.

[Frankie Crocker]

Relative to how 'big' the scene was back then, it's often been said that the Wigan Casino had a membership of around 100,000. Was that actually true?

 

Presuming so, there must have been a hell of a lot of tourists in that number, and many others who were on the scene for a while, drifted away for one reason or another and never came back.

 

People talk about the commercialisation of the scene now, but I wonder if UK venues combined are attracting anything like 100,000 today. 

Maybe Wigan received this many membership applications as you had to be a member to get in, but many of these were one-time visitors just checking the place out. I had three membership cards and the missus two. Loads of cards were ripped in half to help get mates in with another application filled in later that morning so a new card would be posted before the next Allnighter.

[Amsterdam Russ]

Maybe Wigan received this many membership applications as you had to be a member to get in, but many of these were one-time visitors just checking the place out. I had three membership cards and the missus two. Loads of cards were ripped in half to help get mates in with another application filled in later that morning so a new card would be posted before the next Allnighter.

Good points. How many would that account for, do you think - 10-20,000 duplications? That would still mean 80,000 members. And, of course, not everybody who was into Northern went to Wigan, so that would bump up the numbers again.

 

Maybe it's easier to have a guess at how many people are on the scene in the UK now. Between five and 10 thousand?

 

Too high/too low?

[barney]

Good points. How many would that account for, do you think - 10-20,000 duplications? That would still mean 80,000 members. And, of course, not everybody who was into Northern went to Wigan, so that would bump up the numbers again.

 

Maybe it's easier to have a guess at how many people are on the scene in the UK now. Between five and 10 thousand?

 

Too high/too low?

it depends what you call on the scene , there are many if not hundreds of venues every w/end . soulnites , niters , w/enders and weeks abroad . at a guess less than 50% are really into the scene they just go to their local soul night once a month and have the craic with like minded mates and the odd dance ,

then there are those that only do niters and those that do the rare or modern and wouldn't be seen dead at a local bash ,

we travel to various venues every w/end around Yorkshire the east midlands and sometimes into injun country (lancs)we are into the classic oldies but like the odd rare /newey etc thrown in . would say we are into the scene.

and finally theres the post millennium retro baggy crowd who are trying to emulate what we had in the late 60s and 70s .

will say its bigger than its ever been now but its not the same . and it will evolve into something different in a few years time ,

Edited February 20, 2015 by barney

[Frankie Crocker]

Good points. How many would that account for, do you think - 10-20,000 duplications? That would still mean 80,000 members. And, of course, not everybody who was into Northern went to Wigan, so that would bump up the numbers again.

 

Maybe it's easier to have a guess at how many people are on the scene in the UK now. Between five and 10 thousand?

 

Too high/too low?

Very hard to say. I would put the number of record-collecting, travelling and dancing at events at roundabout a few thousand. A lot more interested in the music and attending local events. Add to this the off-the-scene but still like the music CD buying numbers, there's plenty of interest. Between five and ten thousand followers of different levels of devotion probably sums it up fairly accurately.

[Eddie Hubbard]

I think the scene is way bigger now , when I first got into the scene in 73 /74 ,The Torch had shut ,Catacombs also , Wigan Casino was the only regular weekly nighter , followed by Cleethorpes and Yate on a less frequent basis .There were a few friday nighters like Samanthas Sheffield , and later KGB Club ,both in Sheffield .There were quite a few all dayers like The Ritz ,Blackpool Mecca was open still , but changing over to a more Jazz Funk/ Disco  outlook by '77 . Birmingham Locarno , and Bank Holiday All Dayers in Derby , Kettering etc , but nowhere near as much as now .Also if you wanted to buy the music , you had to search for it by subscribing to lists , visiting specialist shops , junking , reading fanzines and trading tapes to learn the trade .It's huge now, and Worldwide ....

[Lucky One]

I have to agree with Eddie and his statements above. Having started out on the scene in1976 and having seen many changes over the decades between then and now, the scene is bigger and better in many ways with far more choice of venues and music being played. You cannot beat today and what is happening now.

[Mick Boyle]

Back in the day 1977

Monday night was Natts Palais

Tuesday - Night off

Wednesday night Ingosoll Chesterfield

Thursday night Italian club Nottm

Friday night Colmans Nottm

Saturday night Alnighted (anywhere)

Sunday day alldayer or/and Colmans in the night

 

This was a typical week, there were more venues back then and every night of the week

offered a healthy choice of venues.

 

Looks like Sundays are starting to get busy again buy imo the scene was bigger in the early days but there were no weekenders so that may adjust things a bit   

Edited February 24, 2015 by Mick Boyle

[Guest Russell H]

A few things I've wondered, based on things I've read over the years -

 

Spotting the d.s - the description I've always read is that they stood out, you could spot them a mile off, etc. How did they stand out? Was it what they were wearing? How they acted?

 

When the scene started to go overground (with things like Wigan's Ovation or the This England documentary), did the "divs" just flock to the Casino, or were they everywhere?

 

How likely were you to hear mainstream, commercial soul in amongst the obscurities and rarities? Surely something like I Can't Help Myself [sugar Pie, Honey Bunch] would be a better fit than something like the Joe 90 theme?

 

How prevalent was the lack of alcohol? Was that just for places that operated outside normal licensing hours, or was that seen as part of the scene even in places that were open earlier?

 

Also, did the American artists coming over to perform live have their own bands with them, or were they put together from UK-based musicians?

[Jim G]

I grew up in Newton Aycliffe and for a small town the number of soul fans was very high. We had our own all nighter which attracted top DJ's, local soul events and coach trips to The Torch, Mecca, Leeds Central and of course Wigan. The constant 'magic' of hearing new records every week at the big venues was a major draw and as teenagers it was fun and exciting. It was of its' time for the buzz, we were all the same age, we didn't really know back then it would live on, we just enjoyed it for what it was. Record bragging rights, cover ups, barmy clothes etc. were all part of the fun. I remember we called it 'the scene' and then later the term Northern Soul was used more often. Records were called 'sounds', DJ's would introduce them as 'the incredible secret sound' etc. all good fun.

 

NS fans were always in the minority to mainstream who liked the rock and pop of the day. Being a fan of mainly black music was NOT the norm believe me! Being called "soulies" was an everyday event that sometimes result in scuffles. My bedroom was adorned with pictures of black  artists and my parents were concerned I would have a black girlfriend ! (remember this was the white working class world back then!!). we joke about it now, but my dad was dead serious back then!

 

The scene initially was underground, crossed over to the mainstream for a short burst in 75/6, then we got older, had kids etc. and most stopped going to events. Roll the clock forward when the kids grew up, we started going out again, hence the prevalence of clubs all over the place today

 

It was and still is very popular in Newton Aycliffe, with some of the guys having incredible collections of records. I count myself lucky to there when it was in its infancy. Every day was a new day, record and junk shops were searched high and low for new sounds, parents were lied to, money was tight, you would sell your soul to get to a venue or buy a record, and do it all again week after week. That was the magic, it is gone, but the music lives and continues to surprise us with new stuff all the time.

Edited February 25, 2015 by jim g

[AlanB]

 

It was big enough to regularly break pure Northern records into the Top 30 on a regular basis in the first half of the 1970s...

 

No.1 The Tams - Hey Girl Don't Bother Me July 1971

No.11 Archie Bell & The Drells - Here I Go Again Oct 1972

No.3 R. Dean Taylor - There's a Ghost In My House May 1974

No.17 Wayne Gibson - Under My Thumb Nov 1974

No.26 The Javells - Goodbye Nothing To Say Nov 1974

No.5 The Trammps - Hold Back The Night Oct 1975

No.22 Rodger Collins - You Sexy Sugar Plum April 1976

 

Ian D 

 

 

From around 1968 demand for reissues of club records had been big enough to propel them into at least the lower reaches of the charts: Gene Chandler, Edwin Starr (68), Bob and Earl, Flamingos, Jamo Thomas (69), Contours (70), San Remo Strings, Fascinations, Formations (71).   

 

For gauging the size of the northern scene it would be interesting to know what sales figures were like for the big reissues that stayed out of the mainstream, maybe things like Cigarette Ashes or What.

[Guest GeoffB]

Soul music as a genre is a lot less popular with young people obviously.

 

I can vouch for that. In my school I'm the only one.

Most people see it as weird but (as many have commented) IMO it is the coolest thing in the world.

When the music comes on, you start feeling the emotion. Start tapping your feet and singing along.

It's something you don't experience any more with most "modern music", all the "cool kids" are too busy listening to grime.

 

I heard 2 kids speaking yesterday. One was commenting on how his favorite rapper gives him chills in the way he say "ass" in a line which goes something like "I'll pop a cap in your ass". It's stuff like this that makes me a little ashamed of my generation. 

[Mark S]

Stood in the middle of the Casino you felt like you were at the centre of the universe the scene felt massive . In reality we were in a very small minority . I worked in a factory over 3000 workers only three of us were into soul .

Locally the girl in the paper shop was the only other one I knew .

Early seventies the scene was small but intense and felt bigger than it actually was .

[spot]

it depends what you call on the scene , there are many if not hundreds of venues every w/end . soulnites , niters , w/enders and weeks abroad . at a guess less than 50% are really into the scene they just go to their local soul night once a month and have the craic with like minded mates and the odd dance ,

then there are those that only do niters and those that do the rare or modern and wouldn't be seen dead at a local bash ,

we travel to various venues every w/end around Yorkshire the east midlands and sometimes into injun country (lancs)we are into the classic oldies but  

like the  odd rare /newey etc thrown in  . would say we are into the scene.

and finally theres the post millennium retro baggy crowd who are trying to emulate what we had in the late 60s and 70s .

will say its bigger than its ever been now but its not the same . and it will evolve into something different in a few years time ,

Now Brian is that really true? I remember your comment after I did you a couple or three cd's of newer/ Rarer tunes, I think your exact words were, "They'll keep birds off me allotment". So not quite as open minded or fully embracing as you'd have us believe.    

Edited February 26, 2015 by spot

[spot]

We started in October 72, Myself, my Best mates Barrie Cornthwaite & Gary Wood, closely followed by my now Wife Gail & others from Goole but a few guys a couple of years older than us had introduced Motown/ Dance Soul to us from 70 onwards, I didn't know at the time they'd been to the Wheel & other Venues, I just remember Bunny Sigler - Let the good times roll, John Miles - One Minute every hour, Guy Darrell - I been hurt, Shakers - One wonderful moment, Willie Tee - Walking up a one way street etc being something different, wanting to dance to them and going where more were played.

I think it's bigger and more accessible now, few people travelled, there where hardly any Motorways, the M62 wasn't built, I remember driving along the first section which if I remember was the M1 Junction and Wakefield junction and thinking it was great, it took us 6 hours to get from Goole to Blackpool Mecca and we only started going to Wigan so we didn't have to drive home in the dark on A or B roads, I'm glad we did though. I think there were pockets of NS around the Country, the West Midlands & North West mostly but Goole for it's small size & Selby down the road had a large number (For their size) travel the Country, Mr Dewhirst can back me on this as the Northern Soul Road Show was always there, along with Him & Soul Sam etc. The underground feel was taken off a bit by the cameras at Wigan and it became the new Black for a while plus some of the total dross they started playing didn't help and we went to Wigan less, having got Cleethorpes Pier & Winter Gardens, Unity Hall as well as St Ives etc to add in the mix but you still had to be a devotee to do all the travelling. 

So yes it's more popular now and more must attend, just look at the number of nights on offer around the Country each week, they're also all differing kinds of Genres/ Rooms, which never happened in the 70's, the only second room I knew was Mr M's and the tunes were only a few years older than what was being played in the room. I wouldn't change any of it though, now or then.  

Spot.  

p.s. Gail has just reminded me that Her & Andrea her best friend went to the Mecca before any of us, so I'm gladly putting the record straight.  

Edited February 26, 2015 by spot