Rather than when did soul music end, that's fast becoming a boring subject.

Instead, lets have your opions on when soul music was born, what was the first true soul record, when was the term first used. May need the help of any of you true historians for this

  Dave Thorley said:

Rather than when did soul music end, that's fast becoming a boring subject.

Instead, lets have your opions on when soul music was born, what was the first true soul record, when was the term first used. May need the help of any of you true historians for this

Probably find it used in jazz first. For some of the more bluesy tracks. Without any vocals.

  Dave Thorley said:

Rather than when did soul music end, that's fast becoming a boring subject.

Instead, lets have your opions on when soul music was born, what was the first true soul record, when was the term first used. May need the help of any of you true historians for this

Hi Dave, great question which I'm sure will attract many answers but for me it started with Sam Cooke and probably his recording of Cupid but you could pick any of his early recordings, had he not been killed in December 1964 he would have gone onto to be as big as Marvin Gaye.

Regards

Alan Pollard

  Alan Pollard said:

Hi Dave, great question which I'm sure will attract many answers but for me it started with Sam Cooke and probably his recording of Cupid but you could pick any of his early recordings, had he not been killed in December 1964 he would have gone onto to be as big as Marvin Gaye.

Regards

Alan Pollard

True, sighted by many as one of the pioneers, but how about Nate King Cole, some of his stuff is truly soulful

  Dave Thorley said:

Rather than when did soul music end, that's fast becoming a boring subject.

Instead, lets have your opions on when soul music was born, what was the first true soul record, when was the term first used. May need the help of any of you true historians for this

Great question Dave. We best define the phrase "soul music" first though or someone will be claiming it all started in biblical times! For me I think the birth of what I would class as "soul music" was that transitional sound that was forged from Rock n Roll (The real stuff), and the RnB sound of the post war era. I suppose for me "sound wise" it's Billy Davis and Berry Gordy, really late 50s/really early 60s stuff pioneered by The Satintones, The Falcons, et all.

Regards,

Dave

www.theresthatbeat.com

www.hitsvillesoulclub.com

  Dave Thorley said:

True, sighted by many as one of the pioneers, but how about Nate King Cole, some of his stuff is truly soulful

Ray Charles in the late 50's blended gospel and RnB to create a new sound.

Georgia on my mind is still a classic standard.

Dave,

In the, All the music guide to Soul.book it says, Soul music was the result of the urbanization and commercialization of R&B in the early 60s.

I imagine it was pop R&B.

All the best,Kev,Jarvis.

Apparently according to James Brown it started with the structure of I'll go crazy, and Think in 1960

Interestingly Billboard only changed the name of the Rhythm and Blues chart to Soul in 1969

Personally I've always considered All in my mind by Maxine Brown

  Dave Moore said:

Great question Dave. We best define the phrase "soul music" first though or someone will be claiming it all started in biblical times! For me I think the birth of what I would class as "soul music" was that transitional sound that was forged from Rock n Roll (The real stuff), and the RnB sound of the post war era. I suppose for me "sound wise" it's Billy Davis and Berry Gordy, really late 50s/really early 60s stuff pioneered by The Satintones, The Falcons, et all.

Regards,

Dave

www.theresthatbeat.com

www.hitsvillesoulclub.com

Interesting you mention mainly Detroit artist, just to broaden the question, which city can be called the true founder of soul music.

When you talk to many of the old musicians in Detroit, they did their early work in jazz bands. Where the interaction with the vocalists started, to form into R&B/Soul music, I'm not sure

Pop R&B is a good description.

I thought it was widely considered that Sam Cooke invented Soul music when he fused together Gospel and Blues with 'You send me' (1957) and commercialised the sound that was being played in either in churches or blues clubs up and down the country.

Wasn't soul uptempo and light hearted blues and gospel for the masses, especially a white audience?

Edited August 17, 200618 yr by Matt Male

  Matt Male said:

Pop R&B is a good description.

I thought it was widely considered that Sam Cooke invented Soul music when he fused together Gospel and Blues with 'You send me' and commercialised the sound that was being played in either in churches or blues clubs up and down the country.

I agree that many books sight that, but this is very like what was the first disco record, books sight 10 percent, Double Exsposure. But ask any collector of disco and he can name 10 other disco records recorded earlier. There may not be a totally defined answer, but interested in people's thoughts, knowledge and stories told to them but artist recording back then.

Most would say The Falcons "I Found A Love" or Jerry Butler and The Impressions "For Your Precious Love" 1959-60, Detroit and Chicago respectively.

I`ve heard this fellow

Edited August 17, 200618 yr by ken

  Dave Thorley said:

Interesting you mention mainly Detroit artist, just to broaden the question, which city can be called the true founder of soul music.

When you talk to many of the old musicians in Detroit, they did their early work in jazz bands. Where the interaction with the vocalists started, to form into R&B/Soul music, I'm not sure

Yep, the musicians were definitely steeped in jazz traditions. As far as the geography is concerned Ijust used Detroit as a yardstick for the era. Chicago could have fitted the bill with the early Impressions stuff etc. I think trying to pinpoint a particular artist or even a particular record is difficult. I would have thought that HB Barnum, Teddy Randazzo, along with Otis Blackwell, Janie Bradford etc, could well stake a viable claim to have developed a "soul sound" . Another thread in the tapestry would be acts like Hank Ballard, Jackie Wilson, The Platters maybe they're also in with a shout?

Sure there's lots more.

Good thread.

Regards,

Dave

www.theresthatbeat.com

www.hitsvillesoullcub.com

  Dave Moore said:

Yep, the musicians were definitely steeped in jazz traditions. As far as the geography is concerned Ijust used Detroit as a yardstick for the era. Chicago could have fitted the bill with the early Impressions stuff etc. I think trying to pinpoint a particular artist or even a particular record is difficult. I would have thought that HB Barnum, Teddy Randazzo, along with Otis Blackwell, Janie Bradford etc, could well stake a viable claim to have developed a "soul sound" . Another thread in the tapestry would be acts like Hank Ballard, Jackie Wilson, The Platters maybe they're also in with a shout?

Sure there's lots more.

Good thread.

Regards,

Dave

www.theresthatbeat.com

www.hitsvillesoullcub.com

A bit off tread, but as you mention Hank Ballad, nice story told to me by Joe Hunter (Funk Brothers) one. He was touring with them late 50's. Had been to a gig somewhere in the deep south. On the way back they get stopped by a white patrol man. 'Where do you guys think your going, shining a tourch into the car. Joe jumps out as he is up frount, and tell's him he's Hank. Patrol man is not in a good mood and everyone is thinking the worst. Suddenly Joe notices a Lodge ring on the guys finger. Now he had worked with some lodge guys back in Detroit and had listen to their storys of secret hand shakes and codes etc. So he says some thing like. We're travling across the desert of the lone tree...... At this the patrol man changes mood gets all friendly and tells Joe, that if the group will give him a song on the side of the road, they can move on in peace. So all the group get out, do 2 vocal numbers by the side of the road. All get back in the car, and after a few silent moments burst into fits of laughter. Then the booming voice of Hank comes from the back. Joe you ever tell anyone your me again and your fired. More laughter.....

Funny, but scary too

Edited August 17, 200618 yr by Dave Thorley

  Dave Thorley said:

Rather than when did soul music end, that's fast becoming a boring subject.

Instead, lets have your opions on when soul music was born, what was the first true soul record, when was the term first used. May need the help of any of you true historians for this

Got to be a case of 'evolution' - those 50's R 'n B and Doo Wop groups developed into Soul acts - Jackie Wilson . Clyde McPhatter (A Lovers's Question) , Drifters etc - add to the mix Ray Charles and Sam Cooke.

I have always believed soul made a gradual climb from '57 ish until it was fully formed in '65, lasted until '75 then made a sorry rapid decline (with Disco) and was dead in 3 years IMHO. But so what - things don't last forever! And there is still plenty to be going at.

Mike

Try again..........

  Mike Lofthouse said:

Got to be a case of 'evolution' - those 50's R 'n B and Doo Wop groups developed into Soul acts - Jackie Wilson . Clyde McPhatter (A Lovers's Question) , Drifters etc - add to the mix Ray Charles and Sam Cooke.

Mike

I think this is true. I always thought of Doo Wop as mid tempo black Rock and Roll so it makes sense that it develops away from R&R and becomes soul, however i always thought soul was an attempt by black acts to break into the mainstream and especially the big national stations which had a huge white audience (that was certainly the case with Motown, Chess, Atlantic, etc.. wasn't it?). On the other hand wasn't Doo Wop fairly well received by white audiences too? So why soul?

Where is the progression musically from Doo Wop to Soul? Does anyone have any soundfiles of a group that was playing both Doo Wop and Soul in the 50s? Or where we can see an actual change of style?

Good thread, making me think

  Dave Thorley said:

Rather than when did soul music end, that's fast becoming a boring subject.

Instead, lets have your opions on when soul music was born, what was the first true soul record, when was the term first used. May need the help of any of you true historians for this

Our friend, the late, great Dave Godin, often cited maxine Brown's "All In My Mind" though I've heard others say that Ray Charles "I Got a Woman" from 1954 is the first example of the genuine article.

To me though it was the first Soul record I ever heard... Dobie Gray's "The In Crowd" ...That's when it all started for me!

Great question Dave with some fascinating answers so far!

Cheers

Sean Hampsey

Soul music hasn't ended. All music has been born from some predecessor hasn't it? Every music writer needed inspiration, that can only come from something that has passed.

In the charts now I hear a lot of stuff with soul undertones and with flowerpower undertones. Nothing new, just reinvented Nothing quite as exciting as what happened in the 60's though. Except Gnarls Barkleys Crazy

  Alan Pollard said:

for me it started with Sam Cooke and probably his recording of Cupid but you could pick any of his early recordings, had he not been killed in December 1964 he would have gone onto to be as big as Marvin Gaye.

Sam Cooke was already bigger at the time of his death than Marvin Gaye ever became -and was, is and always will be considerably better, too.

TONE

PS and bye the bye - Soul begins when you hear that record that touches you in a way that no other record has touched you before - colour and/or genre irrespective. You simply can't put a date on a feeling. Nobody invented soul - not even Sam Cooke or Ray Charles - it's a personal thing and, as some extremely wise person once said "Its just a matter of finding it, and applying it..."

for me, soul music was some form of Doo wop, blues, R & B, Gospel mixed and would have developed in late 50's as you hear Sam Cooke, Jackie Wilson and think they are doing soul and not say doo wop or something like others. But more and more came about in the 60's

For me it has to be Ray Charles. This track is superb

Till_I_Can_t_Take_It_Any_More____Ray_Charles.mp3

I reckon it started in 1953, with the formation of The Drifters, but was bought more to light in 1955 with "Please, Please, Please" by James Brown.

From the very beginning i think it all came from Cajun/bluegrass music and like the link says onto jazz,rythm and blues, then doo wop,gospel and shag music.

Wikipedia soul

  bleusuperb said:

For me it has to be Ray Charles. This track is superb

Agreed ,I think Ray is recognised as being the first true "Soul Man"

Bazza

  Matt Male said:

Where is the progression musically from Doo Wop to Soul? Does anyone have any soundfiles of a group that was playing both Doo Wop and Soul in the 50s? Or where we can see an actual change of style?

Good thread, making me think

Hi Matt, not nessicerily reocrding soul and Doo wop in the 50's but the Parakeets spring to mind, 50's doo wop group, that cut the early 60's soul* master piece 'love you like it do' 1964 i think

* Waits for some clever cnut to tell me its not soul

  Mike Lofthouse said:

Got to be a case of 'evolution' - those 50's R 'n B and Doo Wop groups developed into Soul acts - Jackie Wilson . Clyde McPhatter (A Lovers's Question) , Drifters etc - add to the mix Ray Charles and Sam Cooke. I have always believed soul made a gradual climb from '57 ish until it was fully formed in '65, lasted until '75 then made a sorry rapid decline (with Disco) and was dead in 3 years IMHO. But so what - things don't last forever! And there is still plenty to be going at. Mike

I agree with Mike Lofthouse.

Soul music didn't just happen overnight, it evolved over a period of almost ten years - starting in the late 1950s. It was still developing in the mid-1960s and then it changed at a slower rate until the early 1970s.

Its decline was also gradual, starting in the the mid '70s (it was no coincidence that the Stax empire collapsed in 1976) and it was all over by the end of the decade. The soul movement was no longer a significant force and the infrastructure of the music business - and the media - had also started to change in ways which were damaging to the black music economy.

Since then soul music has continued to exist but as a specialist thing, a retro thing and as an influence on other forms of music - especially hip-hop and rap music.

It's interesting to note that by the time the 'northern soul' scene had evolved into a significant underground movement, soul music itself was already in gradual decline.

Paul Mooney

www.millbrand.com

  Neil-ok said:

From the very beginning i think it all came from Cajun/bluegrass music and like the link says onto jazz,rythm and blues, then doo wop,gospel and shag music.

Wikipedia soul

Good source (Wikipedia soul), but I have a good book that some might find interesting, called 'Bluegrass Source Book'. In there it says that Bluegrass and Blues developed in parallel, one being the music of mainly Delta Afro Americans and Bluegrass the music of the white mid south and deep south counrty folk. When these eventually came together you had traditional rock and roll.

  millbrand said:

I agree with Mike Lofthouse.

Soul music didn't just happen overnight, it evolved over a period of almost ten years - starting in the late 1950s. It was still developing in the mid-1960s and then it changed at a slower rate until the early 1970s.

Its decline was also gradual, starting in the the mid '70s (it was no coincidence that the Stax empire collapsed in 1976) and it was all over by the end of the decade. The soul movement was no longer a significant force and the infrastructure of the music business - and the media - had also started to change in ways which were damaging to the black music economy.

Since then soul music has continued to exist but as a specialist thing, a retro thing and as an influence on other forms of music - especially hip-hop and rap music.

It's interesting to note that by the time the 'northern soul' scene had evolved into a significant underground movement, soul music itself was already in gradual decline.

Paul Mooney

www.millbrand.com

Yes, I agree with most of the above, other than it's demise, being so early. I sure I right in saying that soul music's biggest selling LP's came in the 80's. Anita Baker first 2 sets sold big numbers world-wide and this was soul at it's very best. Maybe over produced for some but out and out soul.

  Dave Thorley said:

... it says that Bluegrass and Blues developed in parallel, one being the music of mainly Delta Afro Americans and Bluegrass the music of the white mid south and deep south counrty folk. When these eventually came together you had traditional rock and roll.

Good point Dave,

Musical styles evolved gradually and often developed in parallel with other styles. It has to be said that most musical genres - including soul music - are in fact hybrids of other styles. Some styles were 'fused' intentionally, others accidentally.

It's ironic that the more ingredients a "new" genre contains, the more original and new it actually sounds.

Paul Mooney

  Dave Thorley said:

Yes, I agree with most of the above, other than it's demise, being so early...

Hello Dave,

I believe it started to decline that early but the changes were very gradual and of course there were some exceptions. Many great soul records were made in the 1980s and 1990s but they were generally retro or specialist to varying degrees and, most significantly, were no longer part of the soul music movement as we knew it.

Paul Mooney

  Dave Thorley said:

Yes, I agree with most of the above, other than it's demise, being so early. I sure I right in saying that soul music's biggest selling LP's came in the 80's. Anita Baker first 2 sets sold big numbers world-wide and this was soul at it's very best. Maybe over produced for some but out and out soul.

No, despite Soul coming to a creative peak for me in 75- 77, it was a rapid decline. It was definitely over for me by '78 - as well as Disco I could never go for the likes of Luther Vandross and Anita Baker - it was not Soul as I knew it

Mike

  Alan Pollard said:

Hi Dave, great question which I'm sure will attract many answers but for me it started with Sam Cooke and probably his recording of Cupid but you could pick any of his early recordings, had he not been killed in December 1964 he would have gone onto to be as big as Marvin Gaye.

Regards

Alan Pollard

sam cooke was some singer bought his latest cd pure class

Edited August 18, 200618 yr by wolvessoulboy

  Mike Lofthouse said:

No, despite Soul coming to a creative peak for me in 75- 77, it was a rapid decline. It was definitely over for me by '78 - as well as Disco I could never go for the likes of Luther Vandross and Anita Baker - it was not Soul as I knew it

Mike

Ahh, this is proof that perception is the key. I must say I tend to agree with Mike, in general, more so as I get older. Whatever happened in the 1980 and 1990s, soulful or not, most of it wasn't quite soul music as I had originally perceived it. It wasn't quite the real thing, apart from a few brave souls living in the past (bless them).

Paul Mooney

  millbrand said:

Ahh, this is proof that perception is the key. I must say I tend to agree with Mike, in general, more so as I get older. Whatever happened in the 1980 and 1990s, soulful or not, most of it wasn't quite soul music as I had originally perceived it. It wasn't quite the real thing, apart from a few brave souls living in the past (bless them).

Paul Mooney

As you say 'Perception' and there we will have to disagree, but back to when did it start

Edited August 19, 200618 yr by soul shrews

  Dave Thorley said:

As you say 'Perception' and there we will have to disagree, but back to when did it start

No matter interesting the question Dave, people can't resist on playing the same old record about when it all ended

Ray Charles 'I got a woman' - mid 50's wasn't that one??

This question could be a good one to drop in the pre-match conversation today

And what about the stuff Lavern Baker did with Todd Rhodes - 'Trying' on King for instance. That must be well early 50s. But soul or blues .

Good one this.

  Rich said:

No matter interesting the question Dave, people can't resist on playing the same old record about when it all ended

Ray Charles 'I got a woman' - mid 50's wasn't that one??

This question could be a good one to drop in the pre-match conversation today

And what about the stuff Lavern Baker did with Todd Rhodes - 'Trying' on King for instance. That must be well early 50s. But soul or blues .

Good one this.

Good point, when did blues turn to soul, or doo wop for that point.

Listen to Sillouettes-Get a job, doo wop that is as soulful as you like and the Spaniels-Good night Irene

I think imight be coming from a different angle here but the explainations so far, mostly 50's Rock n roll or doo wap being fused with blues and R n B describes what i see as Dance music. It was certainly made for the dance hall rather than the radio or theatre.

Personaly i see soul music as a tune that gives you "that" feeling that we all know but probably cant fully put into words, if this IS how soul music is defined then surely the net has to be cast much wider and much earlier.

As far as soul music as we know it, i seem to remember (though i wouldnt swear it) some reference to soul music being made in the W C Handy Biography "ST Louis Blues". He was a Blues Bugle and Trumpet player from the 1920's who was credited as being an early pioneer in blues music. His music was certainly a lot more uplifting than some of the " my birds left me, my dogs left me " style of blues at the time, and in my mind i can see a direct link between his style of music and my allnighter favs.

Great topic

Mark

  Baz said:

Hi Matt, not nessicerily reocrding soul and Doo wop in the 50's but the Parakeets spring to mind, 50's doo wop group, that cut the early 60's soul* master piece 'love you like it do' 1964 i think

* Waits for some clever cnut to tell me its not soul

I love this one by them

the b side of above......1962

  Dave Thorley said:

As you say 'Perception' and there we will have to disagree, but back to when did it start

If I was name specific records - yes the Ray Charles stuff - I got A Woman' etc was recorded in April '55. What'd I Say' was much later June '59. But I would nominate James Brown - 'Please Plaeas Please' complete with the gospel phrasing that we know of as Soul. This was recorded Feb 4 1956.

Mike

Didn't soul music start (and end) at the Casino?

Maybe not!

Derek

we talk about soul starting and great points but to me on about where people say by mid 70's it had stopped surely not when the 80's and 90's produced soul singers. They might not be like what you had in 60's and early 70's but they did something for soul. If the mid 70's onwards was not considered soul then they wouldn't be on any soul show.

Also soul artists could be anyone from Ray Charles to Real Thing but they have there own style like Real Thing being a disco act but disco being a sub genre of soul music.

  Dave Thorley said:

Rather than when did soul music end, that's fast becoming a boring subject.

Instead, lets have your opions on when soul music was born, what was the first true soul record, when was the term first used. May need the help of any of you true historians for this

dave

In the 50 when rock-n-roll was the craze it was the only thing you heard on the radio no television back then for us poor folk. But when we got one you saw the same old music thing Rock-n-Roll which was good but never gave me soul, until a lass called Dusty Springfield hosting the Ready Steady Go I had heard her before but not in the same light has when she did a Motown Special on the television. When she did her version of Mary Wells -You Lost The Sweetest Boy, Dusty's performances by far was the turning point for me I then followed road to what I called soul music thank you Dusty

ps i have seen a clip of the same some song on this forum have a look see

dendog

  Dendog said:

dave

In the 50 when rock-n-roll was the craze it was the only thing you heard on the radio no television back then for us poor folk. But when we got one you saw the same old music thing Rock-n-Roll which was good but never gave me soul, until a lass called Dusty Springfield hosting the Ready Steady Go I had heard her before but not in the same light has when she did a Motown Special on the television. When she did her version of Mary Wells -You Lost The Sweetest Boy, Dusty's performances by far was the turning point for me I then followed road to what I called soul music thank you Dusty

ps i have seen a clip of the same some song on this forum have a look see

dendog

Loved her, used to play her version of 'Long after tonights all over' at Yate.

  Dave Thorley said:

Loved her, used to play her version of 'Long after tonights all over' at Yate.

and 'Bring back' until I could afford a Sissy Houston

  Dave Thorley said:

Loved her, used to play her version of 'Long after tonights all over' at Yate.

and 'Bring back' until I could afford a Sissy Houston

Dave when i get a chance she gets on my decks at the fez often

dendog

Fascinating subject, but would have to go along with the consensus that soul music developed rather than one record causing a big bang, and inventing soul.

Early Clyde McPhatter with the Dominoes (Do Something To Me) is very soulful. Also Little Willie John, tracks like Need Your Love So Bad, sadly he seems to have been forgotten or ignored.

I often hear tracks at the soul nights I go to by groups like the Del Vikings, Dubs, etc. They were big groups in the doowop style in the 50s, but changed their style to something slightly Drifterish, hoping to have a hit I imagine. Just like all those Northern records we love that took Motown as a template but altered it and made it their own.

Think by James Brown has been referred to, but the original is by the 5 Royals of Catch That Teardrop fame, they also did Dedicated To The One I Love before the Shirelles and the Mamas and Papas, as soulful as early James Brown.

Sam Cooke had a great soulful voice, but his earlier hits were let down by the backings, especially the vocal group. Seemed to get better just before he died.

Kent did 3 CDs on the Birth Of Soul, with Dave Godin. Reckon there is scope for more.

The Clyde McPhatter track I referred to above is actually called Do Something For Me. It can be heard at the following link: https://www.group-harmony.com/warm.htm. An good website for anyone interested in group harmony vocal groups from the 1940s through to the late 50s.

Clyde was a big influence of Smokey Robinson and other singers using a high tenor voice; while Roy Hamilton influenced Solomon Burke, Brook Benton and others with a slightly lower tenor or baritone.

If you're into group soul vocals then here's a starter in my opinion:

The Turks - Emily (Issued September 4th 1954)