grouse Posted January 4, 2015 Posted January 4, 2015 (edited) Following from JM's Auction thread, here are my definitions. Original - A record intended for general release to the record buying public, made around the time of the recording. Re-issue - A record made for general release to the record buying public but after the original release. Pressing - A record made specially for the northern scene (Columbia special products, those MGM things you could buy in Russ' little record booth on the balcony, bootlegs, and issues of the Carstairs ect) Pressings can either be legally done with the label owners permission or Illegal bootlegs. Bootleg - A record made specially for the northern scene without the owners permission May or may not look like the original. Counterfeit - A record made specially for the northern scene without the owners permission and intended to look like the original. You may or may not agree with the above but they are what I have always used when trying to describe a record... Edit: All British including Grapevine and Kent etc Who cares, they are just another foreign release, although I do have a few which don't exist as original (Betty Boo etc) Edited January 4, 2015 by grouse 1
Pete S Posted January 4, 2015 Posted January 4, 2015 Pressing - A record made specially for the northern scene (Columbia special products, those MGM things you could buy in Russ' little record booth on the balcony, bootlegs, and issues of the Carstairs ect) Pressings can either be legally done with the label owners permission or Illegal bootlegs. Bootleg - A record made specially for the northern scene without the owners permission May or may not look like the original. Confused. 1
Godzilla Posted January 4, 2015 Posted January 4, 2015 (edited) It's nowhere near as straightforward as that. When bands/artists become popular previously unreleased singles and albums get released by labels that they were originally signed to. They are "intended for general release to the record buying public" but not "made around the time of the recording" (both quotes are your terms of reference). Furthermore, records used to stay on catalogue for years, sometimes with obvious changes to the label, sometimes without. The whole point about ypou needing knowledge and experience in the world of record (and other forms of) collecting is that you can't boil it down to a few basic statements. Finally : Bootleg - a record made specially for the northern scene without the owners permission - where do all the Beatles, Bowie, Dylan, Joy Division etc, etc etc bootlegs fit into this definition..? Edited January 4, 2015 by Godzilla
grouse Posted January 4, 2015 Author Posted January 4, 2015 It's nowhere near as straightforward as that. When bands/artists become popular previously unreleased singles and albums get released by labels that they were originally signed to. They are "intended for general release to the record buying public" but not "made around the time of the recording" (both quotes are your terms of reference). They would be pressings.... specially made
Chalky Posted January 4, 2015 Posted January 4, 2015 Oiginal Re-Issue.....2nd press or another label but legal Bootleg illegal counterfeit illegal and made to deceive. 2
grouse Posted January 4, 2015 Author Posted January 4, 2015 Finally : Bootleg - a record made specially for the northern scene without the owners permission - where do all the Beatles, Bowie, Dylan, Joy Division etc, etc etc bootlegs fit into this definition..? They would be bootlegs, I was only talking about northern, as I don't collect Beatles records (they're British anyway so don't count) and have never heard of Joy Division
Mike Lofthouse Posted January 4, 2015 Posted January 4, 2015 Finally : Bootleg - a record made specially for the northern scene without the owners permission - where do all the Beatles, Bowie, Dylan, Joy Division etc, etc etc bootlegs fit into this definition..? Always thought the term 'bootleg' does not really fit when describing illegal releases of previously legally released records. Bootlegs are really a 'rock'/'pop' thing and describe illegal releases of live shows and studio outtakes, normally of highly collectable and popular acts like those Paul lists. Dylan's basement tapes for example or Something like 'Because The Night' by The New Jersey Devil (Springsteen).... 1
grouse Posted January 4, 2015 Author Posted January 4, 2015 (edited) Confused. Don't know why, pressings can be legal or illegal, as you said yourself no one cared in the 70s, we just knew they weren't originals Edited January 4, 2015 by grouse
Pete S Posted January 4, 2015 Posted January 4, 2015 Don't know why, pressings can be legal or illegal, as you said yourself no one cared in the 70s, we just knew they weren't originals No, confused as to why you had the same thing in two categories?
Godzilla Posted January 4, 2015 Posted January 4, 2015 They would be pressings.... specially made So you'd call the first UK issue of My Bonnie by the Beatles on Polydor 'a specially made pressing' rather than legal first issue in UK? Fair enough - I'm out of here. 1
Guest Posted January 4, 2015 Posted January 4, 2015 They are all pressings.....that`s how records are made!
Godzilla Posted January 4, 2015 Posted January 4, 2015 They would be bootlegs, I was only talking about northern, as I don't collect Beatles records (they're British anyway so don't count) and have never heard of Joy Division Sorry - thought you were a record collector :lol: 1
Popular Post MrsWoodsrules Posted January 4, 2015 Popular Post Posted January 4, 2015 In my day, we called it a pressing when it was re-issued or bootlegged, once a tune was made available to the masses, From lists in the back of Black Echoes or whatever. Made no differential if was an illegal or licenced record, and the lists certainly didn't specify that. A 'pressing' just meant not an original to us. Not saying that's technically right, but that's how we referred to them anyway. "It's been pressed' or "its a pressing" was common speak, and just meant copied & you can get it cheap now. 11
Mike Lofthouse Posted January 4, 2015 Posted January 4, 2015 and have never heard of Joy Division this is their 'version' of N F Porters Keep On Keepin on - John Anderson & Richard Searling were involved so it must be good :o).... 2
grouse Posted January 4, 2015 Author Posted January 4, 2015 this is their 'version' of N F Porters Keep On Keepin on - John Anderson & Richard Searling were involved so it must be good :o).... Bloody hell....... that's awful
Mike Lofthouse Posted January 4, 2015 Posted January 4, 2015 Bloody hell....... that's awful you can't say that......! 2
Popular Post Pete S Posted January 4, 2015 Popular Post Posted January 4, 2015 In my day, we called it a pressing when it was re-issued or bootlegged, once a tune was made available to the masses, From lists in the back of Black Echoes or whatever. Made no differential if was an illegal or licenced record, and the lists certainly didn't specify that. A 'pressing' just meant not an original to us. Not saying that's technically right, but that's how we referred to them anyway. "It's been pressed' or "its a pressing" was common speak, and just meant copied & you can get it cheap now. Yes my friend, exactly what I said ages ago back, you'd have a box of pressings and you knew exactly what they were, no over complications - they were not originals 4
Chalky Posted January 4, 2015 Posted January 4, 2015 Yes my friend, exactly what I said ages ago back, you'd have a box of pressings and you knew exactly what they were, no over complications - they were not originals I don't think anyone would disagree with that would they? Pressing though, the term has become somewhat legitimised dues to way items are described on ebay and more recent collectors don't understand the term as we do/did. People have also over complicated matters in their own quest to be seen doing it the right way when they know they are doing it the wrong way.....if you get my drift. 1
Pete S Posted January 4, 2015 Posted January 4, 2015 Bloody hell....... that's awful He's being unfair, all they did was nick the riff from NF Porter, they also paid for the master tapes of these demos never to be released according to Peter Hook's book which I'm reading just now
MrsWoodsrules Posted January 4, 2015 Posted January 4, 2015 you can't say that......! Correct Mike, I still love em still to this day. I drive through Macclesfield very occasionally & it's like a holy town for me, birthplace of my hero. I know a lad that still has a Warsaw EP called An Ideal For Living, (with a little drummer cat) been trying to prize it off him, no chance, he knows it's full value unfortunately. :-)
Guest john s Posted January 4, 2015 Posted January 4, 2015 I know a lad that still has a Warsaw EP called An Ideal For Living, (with a little drummer cat) been trying to prize it off him, no chance, he knows it's full value unfortunately. :-) It's been pressed, you know.
MrsWoodsrules Posted January 4, 2015 Posted January 4, 2015 It's been pressed, you know. Ha ha, yeah I know, on 12", that Warsaw track was on on "unknown pleasures" & 'Still' anyway, if my memory serves. The original fold out 7" with drummer boy only had a very very limited run, like 500 or so. Proper collectable & rare.
Pete S Posted January 4, 2015 Posted January 4, 2015 It's been pressed, you know. First counterfeit of this was way back, 1981, I've still got the sleeve but no record (though they changed it slightly to The Ideal beginning) Nobody really wants the EP though because it's such terrible quality, it's the 12" that people want, it was remastered.
Pete S Posted January 4, 2015 Posted January 4, 2015 Ha ha, yeah I know, on 12", that Warsaw track was on on "unknown pleasures" & 'Still' anyway, if my memory serves. The original fold out 7" with drummer boy only had a very very limited run, like 500 or so. Proper collectable & rare. Peter Hook was saying he scrapped as many of these when he got them back from the pressing plant because the quality was so bad then they paid for it to be reissued on 12". I know I said that above, but I'm just trying to make it more understandable :-) 1
MrsWoodsrules Posted January 4, 2015 Posted January 4, 2015 Peter Hook was saying he scrapped as many of these when he got them back from the pressing plant because the quality was so bad then they paid for it to be reissued on 12". I know I said that above, but I'm just trying to make it more understandable :-) I'll have to read the book Pete, sounds good. They were crap at business it seems? Think they lost money on everything the did? Cept Blue Monday of course! Bet it's an interesting read that.
Godzilla Posted January 4, 2015 Posted January 4, 2015 I'll have to read the book Pete, sounds good. They were crap at business it seems? Think they lost money on everything the did? Cept Blue Monday of course! Bet it's an interesting read that. They lost more money on the initial run of the Blue Monday 12 inch in the die cut sleeve than almost anything else they did! 1
MrsWoodsrules Posted January 4, 2015 Posted January 4, 2015 They lost more money on the initial run of the Blue Monday 12 inch in the die cut sleeve than almost anything else they did! It took a while to break big didn't it? More a a club record before radio/charts?
Benji Posted January 4, 2015 Posted January 4, 2015 "what is a pressing?" - just another term for a bootleg. Period.
Benji Posted January 4, 2015 Posted January 4, 2015 (edited) My definitions: Original - first legal press. Applies to local and later national releases, both original. Releases in other countries can be originals too if issued around the same time, e.g. within 2/3 years after the initial issue, e.g. UK Stateside issues Reissue - much later legal re-release due to demand, be it from the Northern scene or Doo Wop scene or whatever. Independent of country of origin, e.g. most UK Grapevine releases are reissues even though they're first UK releases. Pressings/Bootlegs: both the same, illegal re-releases. Or illegal presses of previously unissued recordings, e.g. Bob Dylan's infamous basement recordings. Counterfeits: Pressings/Bootlegs made with every effort to look like the original presses. Have I forgotten anything? Edit: have amended the "pressings/bootlegs" bit. Edited January 5, 2015 by Benji 2
Godzilla Posted January 4, 2015 Posted January 4, 2015 It took a while to break big didn't it? More a a club record before radio/charts? The number of copies it sold initially worked against them! Here's the info from Wiki, Ade The artwork is designed to resemble a 5¼" floppy disk. The sleeve does not display either the group name nor song title in plain English anywhere; the only text on the sleeve is "FAC SEVENTY THREE" on the spine. Instead the legend "FAC 73 BLUE MONDAY AND THE BEACH NEW ORDER" is represented in code by a series of coloured blocks. The key enabling this to be deciphered was printed on the back sleeve of the album, Power, Corruption & Lies.[17] "Blue Monday" and Power, Corruption & Lies are two of four Factory releases from this time period to employ the colour code, the others being "Confusion" by New Order and From the Hip by Section 25. The single's original sleeve, created by Factory designer Peter Saville and Brett Wickens, was die-cut with a silver inner sleeve.[17] It cost so much to produce that Factory Records actually lost money on each copy sold. Matthew Robertson's Factory Records: The Complete Graphic Album[18] notes that "[d]ue to the use of die-cutting and specified colours, the production cost of this sleeve was so high that the single sold at a loss." Tony Wilson noted that it lost 5p per sleeve "due to our strange accounting system"; Saville noted that nobody expected "Blue Monday" to be a commercially successful record at all, so nobody expected the cost to be an issue."[19] In Shadowplayers: The Rise and Fall of Factory Records, Saville states "I am so bored with this story. We didn't even know how many of these expensive covers were ever made anyway."[20] Robertson also noted that "[l]ater reissues had subtle changes to limit the cost" (the diecut areas being replaced with printed silver ink).[19] The artwork was so late that Saville sent it straight to the printer, unreviewed by either the band or the label.[21] The 1988 and 1995 versions were packaged in conventional sleeves. 1
Godzilla Posted January 4, 2015 Posted January 4, 2015 My definitions: Original - first legal press. Applies to local and later national releases, both original. Releases in other countries can be originals too if issued around the same time, e.g. within 2/3 years after the initial issue, e.g. UK Stateside issues Reissue - much later legal re-release due to demand, be it from the Northern scene or Doo Wop scene or whatever. Independent of country of origin, e.g. most UK Grapevine releases are reissues even though they're first UK releases. Pressings/Bootlegs: both the same, illegal re-releases. Counterfeits: Pressings/Bootlegs made with every effort to look like the original presses. Have I forgotten anything? Not bad Benji - However: Carver? Carver with photocopy label stuck on
Premium Stuff Posted January 4, 2015 Posted January 4, 2015 Oiginal Re-Issue.....2nd press or another label but legal Bootleg illegal counterfeit illegal and made to deceive. Yep, that's pretty much it Chalky - apart from the spelling of original Apart from that, it's simple and accurate - why complicate this -unless one wants to deceive? Cheers Richard
Pete S Posted January 4, 2015 Posted January 4, 2015 I'll have to read the book Pete, sounds good. They were crap at business it seems? Think they lost money on everything the did? Cept Blue Monday of course! Bet it's an interesting read that. Great book mate, unbelievable really, they were still staying in crappy b & b's and driving an old Ford Transit while making Closer - they literally had no money, Rob Gretton gave them like £9 each per week. Very very good read. 1
Mike Lofthouse Posted January 4, 2015 Posted January 4, 2015 My definitions: Original - first legal press. Applies to local and later national releases, both original. Releases in other countries can be originals too if issued around the same time, e.g. within 2/3 years after the initial issue, e.g. UK Stateside issues Reissue - much later legal re-release due to demand, be it from the Northern scene or Doo Wop scene or whatever. Independent of country of origin, e.g. most UK Grapevine releases are reissues even though they're first UK releases. Pressings/Bootlegs: both the same, illegal re-releases. Counterfeits: Pressings/Bootlegs made with every effort to look like the original presses. Have I forgotten anything? I don't agree with 'Bootlegs' being described as 'illegal re-releases' - I remain convinced a bootleg is a release of a previously unreleased track be it 'Live' or a studio take/outtake NOT previously released legally... 1
Pete S Posted January 4, 2015 Posted January 4, 2015 I don't agree with 'Bootlegs' being described as 'illegal re-releases' - I remain convinced a bootleg is a release of a previously unreleased track be it 'Live' or a studio take/outtake NOT previously released legally... I think I agree with you Mike. Correct name for an illegal copy of a ptreviously released 45 is a pirate copy.
Prophonics 2029 Posted January 4, 2015 Posted January 4, 2015 (edited) They are all pressings.....that`s how records are made! It's more of a squeeze than a press....it's made on a press tho...i think they should be called squeezeds... I have seen a first issue of The Wall Pink Floyd....demand picked up and changes were made so I presume that's a second issue, third and forth...then years after to maintain the catalogue it could have been reissued but after it was not in production for a time....but if someone took a cut from the master tape and pre released then that's the bootleg copy...so if it's copied after the release it's a counterfeit. Edited January 4, 2015 by Prophonics 2029
Benji Posted January 4, 2015 Posted January 4, 2015 I don't agree with 'Bootlegs' being described as 'illegal re-releases' - I remain convinced a bootleg is a release of a previously unreleased track be it 'Live' or a studio take/outtake NOT previously released legally... Sorry, but that's just semantic bullshit. Basically, bootleg=pressing=pirate copy. An illegal release. Please don't get into anal details, e.g. like some major UK company didn't have the rights to release certain songs back then. Or the recording wasn't released at the time e.g. Bob Dylan's basement tracks. If you press a record to satisfy demand from the peer group without the rights it's illegal, a bootleg, a pressing, a pirate copy.
Benji Posted January 4, 2015 Posted January 4, 2015 Not bad Benji - However: Carver? Carver with photocopy label stuck on Good question. Carvers sold are illegal presses. Carvers cut for home listening are ok in my opinion. I have two myself. But if you use carvers to play at dances you commit a crime according to OVO law and therefore you shall be tarred and feathered. 1
Prophonics 2029 Posted January 4, 2015 Posted January 4, 2015 (edited) Bloody hell....... that's awfulIt sounds more Velvet Underground than Nolan...but then VU could have inspired N F Porter...didn't Nolan have a megga fit and famous girl friend / wife.?? I use to have a bootleg tape of this and all the Warsaw 1978 stuff...it wasn't scrapped..issued a lot later but that's all 36 years ago and I could be wrong. Edited January 5, 2015 by Prophonics 2029
Prophonics 2029 Posted January 5, 2015 Posted January 5, 2015 PAUL WELLER - IF I COULD ONLY BE SURE.wmv: Where dose ripoff stand in this list.
Guest Gogs Posted January 5, 2015 Posted January 5, 2015 My definitions: Original - first legal press. Applies to local and later national releases, both original. Releases in other countries can be originals too if issued around the same time, e.g. within 2/3 years after the initial issue, e.g. UK Stateside issues Reissue - much later legal re-release due to demand, be it from the Northern scene or Doo Wop scene or whatever. Independent of country of origin, e.g. most UK Grapevine releases are reissues even though they're first UK releases. So what is your opinion on album only tracks, later released on a 45 to cover demand? As a bad example The Tempests - Someday on the Sevens label (although i'm not to sure of the legitimacy of this) are these an original 45? this would count as the original 45 release. (not that i would ever play it out (i don't even have a copy) but have seen it played.
Wiggyflat Posted January 5, 2015 Posted January 5, 2015 Weller has taken music from everywhere. Backyard Construction are owed a few quid for My Ever Changing Moods and Nick Lowe should take him to the cleaners.
Amsterdam Russ Posted January 5, 2015 Posted January 5, 2015 1/ a bootleg is an unofficial or illegal issue of a recording that's never been released. 2/ a pirated song is one that's shared illegally (think pirate radio). 3/ a pressing is, quite literally, something that's been pressed or has been issued! It should be preceded by words such as "1st", "2nd", "illegal", "legitimate" or any appropriate adjective. More modern day usage (as in this context) omits the words "illegal", "dodgy", "suspect", which is why many people find its use confusing.
El Corol Posted January 5, 2015 Posted January 5, 2015 My definitions: Original - first legal press. Applies to local and later national releases, both original. Releases in other countries can be originals too if issued around the same time, e.g. within 2/3 years after the initial issue, e.g. UK Stateside issues Reissue - much later legal re-release due to demand, be it from the Northern scene or Doo Wop scene or whatever. Independent of country of origin, e.g. most UK Grapevine releases are reissues even though they're first UK releases. Pressings/Bootlegs: both the same, illegal re-releases. Counterfeits: Pressings/Bootlegs made with every effort to look like the original presses. Have I forgotten anything? We used to use the term "pressing" for both legal and illegal reissues. Bootleg was used to be more specific when obviously illegal, but pressing was a more umbrella term for anything we knew wasn't the original. It seemed to work ok back then! 2
Benji Posted January 5, 2015 Posted January 5, 2015 So what is your opinion on album only tracks, later released on a 45 to cover demand? As a bad example The Tempests - Someday on the Sevens label (although i'm not to sure of the legitimacy of this) are these an original 45? this would count as the original 45 release. (not that i would ever play it out (i don't even have a copy) but have seen it played. Pretty simple, "cover demand" are the key words. Tempests on Sevens would have been a reissue if it was legal. But I never heard of Tempests on Sevens. I know of Tempests on Stardust and that 's a bootleg because of lack of rights. It would be a first 45 press but not an original 45 release.
Benji Posted January 5, 2015 Posted January 5, 2015 We used to use the term "pressing" for both legal and illegal reissues. Bootleg was used to be more specific when obviously illegal, but pressing was a more umbrella term for anything we knew wasn't the original. It seemed to work ok back then! "We used" and "back then" are the key words. This is 2015 and not the 70's. Some terms have changed. Accept it.
El Corol Posted January 5, 2015 Posted January 5, 2015 Weller has taken music from everywhere. Backyard Construction are owed a few quid for My Ever Changing Moods and Nick Lowe should take him to the cleaners. Wiggy are you basing your observations on the similarity in the music or more the shirts they are wearing? :-) 1
El Corol Posted January 5, 2015 Posted January 5, 2015 "We used" and "back then" are the key words. This is 2015 and not the 70's. Some terms have changed. Accept it. I have accepted it, just don't feel the need to be over pedantic about . Change isn't always better.
Guest Gogs Posted January 5, 2015 Posted January 5, 2015 Pretty simple, "cover demand" are the key words. Tempests on Sevens would have been a reissue if it was legal. But I never heard of Tempests on Sevens. I know of Tempests on Stardust and that 's a bootleg because of lack of rights. It would be a first 45 press but not an original 45 release. Sorry i meant "Stardust", But as the first issue on a 45 it has to be an original 45 issue (ie first time ever issued on a 45), original = first.
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