Bootleggers

[Guest chorleybloke]

I know this has been discussed many times but how on earth do they get away with such brazen bootlegging? Why does eBay continue allow it? This seller happily advertises his name & address and he's even booted a Stardust record FFS!

 

Lastly, how much profit can there be in this business model? Might be wrong but it seems like chicken shit to me, maybe a quid a record?

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Ike-Tina-Turner-Strange-Youre-A-Jive-Playboy-R-Bl-Vinyl-45-Listen-/141478523979?pt=UK_Records&hash=item20f0c6f44b

 

Cheers & HNY

Pete

 

 

[pow wow mik]

It has been discussed much before, and god forbid that we end up with more 'pages of gibberish' on the subject but here's my view:

They get away with it because they steal a product that isn't much of an asset to anyone and therefore not cared about. Often there isn't even a rival product that's legitimate, sometimes, as with the r&b boots, the copyright might even have transferred to the public domain.

In the best case, a modern company like Ace might own the rights, but what are they going to do, if Sony and Lacoste etc struggle to stop it?

I think its a good thing that Ebay dont police it much, cos where would that end? Private business enforcing laws is never a good idea, and too slack is certainly preferable to over zealous, which is how these things usually turn out.

The ultimate responsibility for the existence of bootlegs and their producers is the people who buy them, simple as that. Just like the responsibility for drug use is squarely on the user and the responsibility for x factor is on those who watch it.

unfortunately, humans seem to like poor quality shite, and like easy, cheap options even more, and in this case, the need to pretend to be a record collector, obviously a massive instinctive drive in the human evolutionary process, outweighs all other considerations.

"There is hardly anything in the world that some man can not make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who only consider price are these mens' prey" Ruskin

Edited January 1, 2015 by pow wow mik

[paultp]

Have a look at the sellers other items then click on "completed items" and you can see how many he's selling.

 

i'd guess at a profit of £3 to £6 per record - do the math!

 

People buy this shit, he same as they buy fake Ugg boots etc

[Pete S]

Have a look at the sellers other items then click on "completed items" and you can see how many he's selling.

 

i'd guess at a profit of £3 to £6 per record - do the math!

 

People buy this shit, he same as they buy fake Ugg boots etc

 

People have been buying that shit for 40 years though - I've got at least 400 of them - they're part of growing up on the scene, we wouldn't have had those records to play at the youth club etc back in the 70's if they hadn't been available for a quid from the local record shop.   Not really talking about these modern day ones.

[Mace]

People have been buying that shit for 40 years though - I've got at least 400 of them - they're part of growing up on the scene, we wouldn't have had those records to play at the youth club etc back in the 70's if they hadn't been available for a quid from the local record shop.   Not really talking about these modern day ones.

 

Though back then Pete, there was little other option to hear such tunes other that some C60 compilation tape....or go to the venues to hear the DJs play them.

There are plenty of easy options to obtain and hear such tunes nowadays, and whilst I understand the 'need' of some to buy a vinyl copy, I can't really see the point in them this day and age.

 

To be honest, I'm way past caring about them....they play no part in the scenes or clubs that interest me, and don't seem to affect prices of orginals to any extent that I have noticed.

Edited January 1, 2015 by Mace

[paultp]

People have been buying that shit for 40 years though - I've got at least 400 of them - they're part of growing up on the scene, we wouldn't have had those records to play at the youth club etc back in the 70's if they hadn't been available for a quid from the local record shop.   Not really talking about these modern day ones.

The difference is that in the 70's vinyl was the media in use, so producing things on vinyl was pretty much the only option. Cassettes rapidly followed and people sold cassettes with tunes on right up to the late 90's, nobody accused them of bootlegging but that's what they were doing, but you can't DJ from a cassette.

 

in 2015 I personally can't see the point of vinyl bootlegs as the medium is incredibly outdated and it requires effort to play 45's - you have to keep changing them, you can't do anything else at the same time. I listen to music on mixcloud these days unless I take an hour or so to sit down and play my records. I take pleasure from the fact that they are the original release and wonder who had/played them before me. It's a personal thing.

 

Today these things are produced as a business with the market being mainly people who don't care what they are buying,  same as any other fake. It's a reflection on the state of the nation just how big the market is for fakes of everything. That was my point.

 

each to their own though, I couldn't care less what other people do. They can sit round drinking fake drinks, wearing fake clothing and playing fake records if that's what they want to do.

[Pete S]

Though back then Pete, there was little other option to hear such tunes other that some C60 compilation tape....or go to the venues to hear the DJs play them.

There are plenty of easy options to obtain and hear such tunes nowadays, and whilst I understand the 'need' of some to buy a vinyl copy, I can't really see the point in them this day and age.

 

To be honest, I'm way past caring about them....they play no part in the scenes or clubs that interest me, and don't seem to affect prices of orginals to any extent that I have noticed.

 

I agree, I'm just saying that in the 70's it was the only way to hear a lot of the records.

[Pete S]

I should also say I still buy one or two, I sold Stemmons Express on Karma a couple of weeks ago and replaced it with a boot.  Why?  Cos I still like to play it.  Podcasts etc.

[Mellorful]

Many of the tunes were commercial failures in their day and regretably not many records were pressed.

The tunes are often very good and the artists got bugger all recognition for their work. It's a shame that it is so difficult to get Sony to allow legitimate reissues as they could get a commission and the artist would get some royalties. 

I once approached Sony about having some records pressed up legitimately with all the profits being donated to Children in need, getting through the process was like climbing a mountain of glass in stocking feet. After several weeks of being passed from pillar to post I gave up trying.

Given my experience of trying to do things the legimately and for a good cause I understand why the records get bootlegged. If these records dont get bootlegged they could get forgotten (after all many venues its a top 100 only playlist).

 

On the positive side for every bootleg sold it has the potential to create a collector (not all acorns make an oak tree but they all have potential).

Atb

[Guest GeoffB]

If these records dont get bootlegged they could get forgotten (after all many venues its a top 100 only playlist)

 

 

 

Whilst this may be true back in the 70's, 80's and even 90's, now that we've got the internet anyone can listen to a song for free anyway.

There are so many options to catalog and save records now that boots shouldn't be needed.

If you want a physical copy to keep then how much does a CD cost now? 50p?

The only reason boots exist is for the people who are uptight enough to "need" it on vinyl and yet not enough of a collector to care its a bootleg.

[Chalky]

The reason why ebay do nothing is because apart from the illegal item there is nothing in the description to suggest anything illegal.  Ebay probably rely on a computer algolithoram or whatever they use to spot descriptive words that shouldn't be used, in this case bootleg. Other than that they rely on users to report them abd even then they seem to do little about it.  Why the record companies haven't challenged then I don't know, not so much for the northern but more commercial stuff.

 

I looked into the vestax cutting machine, £7k about 15 years ago and about 48p per blank disc.  The bootleggers probably cut to order so the only work they do is knocking a scan up until one is sold.  So at £7 per disc, £6.50 isn't a bad profit for each disc. 

[Louise]

I couldn't believe the other day when I stumbled across a lookalike Stateside Demo of Jimmy Radcliffe "Long After Tonight " etc and Little Anthony "Better Use Your Head" UA Demo. This is really taking the piss.

Dave

Edited January 1, 2015 by Louise

[Linda4me]

I couldn't believe the other day when I stubbled across a lookalike Stateside Demo of Jimmy Radcliffe "Long After Tonight " etc and Little Anthony "Better Use Your Head" UA Demo. This is really taking the piss.

Dave

It wasn't a close shave then 

[Louise]

It wasn't a close shave then 

 

Many thanks for the proof reading, post duly corrected. Happy New Year

[Guest john s]

As far as the profit per record goes, you could ask the member on here who makes the r'n'b boots.

[Linda4me]

As far as the profit per record goes, you could ask the member on here who makes the r'n'b boots.

Tell me more

[Pete S]

 

The only reason boots exist is for the people who are uptight enough to "need" it on vinyl and yet not enough of a collector to care its a bootleg.

 

 

Like me you mean?

I am a record dealer - I cannot keep original records for myself, much as I'd like to, I'd have the best collection in the world by now if I did.  But if I don't sell them, I don't make any money, so I sell them and if I like them I replace them with a cheap copy so I can play it whenever I feel like it.

And no, I couldn't make do with an mp3 or a cd, because there's nothing tangible there like there is when you put a record on to play.

[Guest GeoffB]

Like me you mean?

I am a record dealer - I cannot keep original records for myself, much as I'd like to, I'd have the best collection in the world by now if I did.  But if I don't sell them, I don't make any money, so I sell them and if I like them I replace them with a cheap copy so I can play it whenever I feel like it.

And no, I couldn't make do with an mp3 or a cd, because there's nothing tangible there like there is when you put a record on to play.

 

I'm not going to kid myself and say I wouldn't buy a boot if it was a record I MUST have and the original demands a hefty price. Maybe I'm just uptight. Don't take it personally.

Edited January 1, 2015 by GeoffB

[Pete S]

I'm not going to kid myself and say I wouldn't buy a boot if it was a record I MUST have and the original demands a hefty price. Maybe I'm just uptight. Don't take it personally.

 

No, I didn't take it personally but everyone has a reason for buying the things, some do it because they want to attempt to look or sound good in a dj spot, I do it cos I like playing them at home when my originals have gone - thats all..

[Guest chorleybloke]

Some well considered responses that kind of put it in perspective...

 

The best way of looking at it I suppose is that I used to buy boots by the shedful because originals were way out of reach as a teenager. So it's deja vu 40 years on.

 

Except on some level it still gets on my tits 

 

Secondary question... are there any bootleggers out there attempting to counterfeit originals and charge accordingly? Somehow, that's worse than mass producing shite copies (in my head at least)

 

Still a bit disgruntled

Pete

[Labeat]

I don't buy boots but i can understand a person paying 20 quid (or whatever) for a Lady in Green as opposed to 4 or 5 thousand quid

and so long as they don't play it at a mainstream venue

[Pauldonnelly]

OOTP

[Soul Shrews]

I should also say I still buy one or two, I sold Stemmons Express on Karma a couple of weeks ago and replaced it with a boot.  Why?  Cos I still like to play it.  Podcasts etc.

I feel an OVO podcast thread a coming........

 

Cheers Paul

[Stateside]

No, I didn't take it personally but everyone has a reason for buying the things, some do it because they want to attempt to look or sound good in a dj spot, I do it cos I like playing them at home when my originals have gone - thats all..

As you know I buy boots off you, but generally if I don't want to spend a fortune on a record. Like the Del Larks, Joe Hicks, Yvonne Baker or Mel Britt, but want to play them at home

 

Kev

[Pete S]

I feel an OVO podcast thread a coming........

 

Cheers Paul

 

Thats the odd thing, I've done over 250 podcasts and not one single person has complained that a track wasn't taken off original vinyl 

[Rick Smith]

I feel an OVO podcast thread a coming........

 

Cheers Paul

 

Please not again

[davidwapples]

Thats the odd thing, I've done over 250 podcasts and not one single person has complained that a track wasn't taken off original vinyl 

probably because people dont care unless its a dj thing

 

how many radio stations play all of vinyl ? people still listen

If it is free people dont mind  , if they pay then they moan if someone is djing from pressings they moan especially if they want to dj themselves

[Sjclement]

Thats the odd thing, I've done over 250 podcasts and not one single person has complained that a track wasn't taken off original vinyl 

 

How would they Know? 

[Pete S]

How would they Know? 

 

That was kind of the point I was making - they don't know - and they don't care.  

[Mellorful]

probably because people dont care unless its a dj thing

 

how many radio stations play all of vinyl ? people still listen

If it is free people dont mind  , if they pay then they moan if someone is djing from pressings they moan especially if they want to dj themselves

I think Kev Roberts covered this point in another thread, the DJ needs both records and right personality to get invites to DJ the big events.

All the moaning in the world wont get them a spot at a main venue if they are without both the right assets and chacteristics.

As Ronnie Corbett said to Ronnie Barker ............I know my place.

https://wn.com/john_cleese,_ronnie_barker_and_ronnie_corbett_class

[pow wow mik]

That was kind of the point I was making - they don't know - and they don't care.

no one cares about podcasts, you're right - its like doing someone a cd - a listening experience and a favour, in doing it, you're not promoting yourself as a dj.

in clubs / even online dj mixes, its a different story. Ovo is simply a way of ensuring that its serious collectors providing the soundtrack, the theory being, and mostly its right, that the serious effort / thought / money that goes into putting together a good set of originals ensures that only the most passionate about records get the gigs.

Also, the difficulty of getting the records you want, the impossibility almost, of having all the biggies all the time, forces peoples' sets to be more varied and reflective of their own tastes, than they might be, as it forces the collector to prioritise.

and why? Because its people who are passionate about records who keep the market going, and its the market that keeps and has always kept the newies and rarities from the dump.

that slight incentive - for a collector to express their taste and their efforts via a dj spot, is the top of the pyramid and from it the entire show is sustained.

And apart from anything else, theres no shortage of djs so we might as well have the most knowledgable selecting for us. Thats not to say that all collectors are knowledgable and all non collectors are not, but I've never heard of a good dj who needs to play boots.

it's funny that the ovo djs get a sort of reputation for arrogance when in fact I think it's bootleg djs who have the most arrogance ; without original vinyl, what, exactly, are you selling? Your taste? Ha ha

pete is something of an anomoly - strangely attached to vinyl for reasons even he can't quite explain, though the reasons are undoubtedly emotional rather than practical. He is knowledgable, but doesn't want to be a dj. Somehow, I dont think your average bootleg buyer is like that.

it could be harmless, a million djs playing a billion boots every weekend, in a million pubs and bars. Or maybe, without that easy option, people craving a dose of soul would be forced to go to proper nights, commit a bit more to it and get a lot more out of it; and they might experience their soul in an environment and atmosphere approaching that which the music deserves.

Good things simply are rare, accept it. Having a half-arsed dj on every corner doesn't spread good art, the good representations are still as rare, it just clutters up tbe route to them...like painting rocks gold and believing we are rich.

Edited January 3, 2015 by pow wow mik

[Pete S]

no one cares about podcasts, you're right - its like doing someone a cd - a listening experience and a favour, in doing it, you're not promoting yourself as a dj.

in clubs / even online dj mixes, its a different story. Ovo is simply a way of ensuring that its serious collectors providing the soundtrack, the theory beibg, and mostly its right, that the serious effort / thought / money that goes into putting together a good set of originals ensures that only the most passionate about records get the gigs.

Also, the difficulty of getting the records you want, the impossibility almost, of having all the biggies all the time, forces peoples' sets to be more varied than they might be, as it forces the collector to prioritise.

and why? Because its people who are passionate about records who keep the market going, and its the market that keeps and has always kept the newies and rarities from the dump.

that slight incentive - for a collector to express their taste and their efforts via a dj spot, is the top of the pyramid and from it the entire show is sustained.

And apart from anything else, theres no shortage of djs so we might as well have the most knowledgable selecting for us. Thats not to say that all collectors are knowledgable and all non collectors are not, but I've never heard of a good dj who needs to play boots.

it's funny that the ovo djs get a sort of reputation for arrogance when in fact I think it's bootleg djs who have the most arrogance ; without original vinyl, what, exactly, are you selling? Your taste? Ha ha

pete is something of an anomoly - strangely attached to vinyl for reasons even he can't quite explain, though the reasons are undoubtedly emotional rather than practical. He is knowledgable, but doesn't want to be a dj. Somehow, I dont think your average bootleg buyer is like that.

it could be harmless, a million djs playing a billion boots every weekend, in a million pubs and bars. Or maybe, without that easy option, people craving a dose of soul would be forced to go to proper nights, commit a bit more to it and get a lot more out of it.

 

Thank you Mik, for taking a minute to understand exactly what I do and why I do it.  I'd never dream of djing with reissue records when people were there with originals.  

Although I have to say one thing, if I was offred a DJ spot I could easily do one from originals, I have 4 or 5 thousand in this very room, I just like my own Top 500 thats all.

[Mellorful]

no one cares about podcasts, you're right - its like doing someone a cd - a listening experience and a favour, in doing it, you're not promoting yourself as a dj.

in clubs / even online dj mixes, its a different story. Ovo is simply a way of ensuring that its serious collectors providing the soundtrack, the theory being, and mostly its right, that the serious effort / thought / money that goes into putting together a good set of originals ensures that only the most passionate about records get the gigs.

Also, the difficulty of getting the records you want, the impossibility almost, of having all the biggies all the time, forces peoples' sets to be more varied and reflective of their own tastes, than they might be, as it forces the collector to prioritise.

and why? Because its people who are passionate about records who keep the market going, and its the market that keeps and has always kept the newies and rarities from the dump.

that slight incentive - for a collector to express their taste and their efforts via a dj spot, is the top of the pyramid and from it the entire show is sustained.

And apart from anything else, theres no shortage of djs so we might as well have the most knowledgable selecting for us. Thats not to say that all collectors are knowledgable and all non collectors are not, but I've never heard of a good dj who needs to play boots.

it's funny that the ovo djs get a sort of reputation for arrogance when in fact I think it's bootleg djs who have the most arrogance ; without original vinyl, what, exactly, are you selling? Your taste? Ha ha

pete is something of an anomoly - strangely attached to vinyl for reasons even he can't quite explain, though the reasons are undoubtedly emotional rather than practical. He is knowledgable, but doesn't want to be a dj. Somehow, I dont think your average bootleg buyer is like that.

it could be harmless, a million djs playing a billion boots every weekend, in a million pubs and bars. Or maybe, without that easy option, people craving a dose of soul would be forced to go to proper nights, commit a bit more to it and get a lot more out of it; and they might experience their soul in an environment and atmosphere approaching that which the music deserves.

Good things simply are rare, accept it. Having a half-arsed dj on every corner doesn't spread good art, the good representations are still as rare, it just clutters up tbe route to them...like painting rocks gold and believing we are rich.

Agree 100% about the podcasts, I'm grateful to Pete for putting them together and sharing.

 

I am not saying you are right or wrong about DJ's producing a good spot from bootlegs, been to venues where I have danced my socks off and I suspect the DJ was billy bootleg. The missus doesn't give a bugger whether its orginal reissue or bootleg and she goes to a venue and wants to be entertained - thats where the character of the DJ come in and the atmosphere the plays create. Without cameras on the decks would most of us ever know whether original, reissue or boot? my hearing isnt what it was 30 years ago.

People with great collections don't necessarily make good DJ's.... If that was the case every hooray henry could buy a collection and become a star.

 

On a personal level I have followed a DJ playing boots and where I had planned to play the originals, that was frustrating but it forced me to be more imaginative when getting my revised set together.  I dont get upset because if the punters and promoter are okay with bootlegs then cest la vie.

Though I feel sorry for the artists when bootlegs are played and wish Sony would simplify the process of getting legitimate reissues pressed up; putting a previously unreleased track on the other side, thus the boots could be consigned to the bin.

Would that make the new tune issue with a B side containing a previously released tune an original release?  and what would be the ettiquette spinning the B side in this case?

The reissue royalties could provide some income for these aging stars in their retirement.

Atb

Stu

[Bazza]

Now I'm just a punter I don't DJ,I don't collect and I don't promote,,I will not travel round the country ,because a DJ has a couple of my faves,that he might not even play ,I haven't got the time the money or the energy to do it,I want to go out have a dance have a laugh and enjoy myself ,so if Billy Bootleg plays a few ,I really don't give a toss anymore  

 

Bazza   

[davidwapples]

.

 

Would that make the new tune issue with a B side containing a previously released tune an original release?  and what would be the ettiquette spinning the B side in this case?

 

you can spin the b side but flip it over and the soul police will have a warrant waiting for you when you  finish your spot.

 

It happened a few years ago with the porgy and the monarchs release , the flip side was covered up as the peppermint men

[pow wow mik]

Mellorfull, thanks for your reply. I think the point is being missed though. Firstly, of course collecting originals doesn't make someone a dj; that is to re-arrange the logic. A good knowledgable dj just will necesarily collect originals - they'd have to in order to have newies and rarities - and therefore dont need to play boots. Its irrelevent that some collectors make bad djs. The whole debate needs to start from an assumption that were talking about people who can dj, as there will be those who can and can't in both camps, cancelling each other out.

it is also irrelevent that you could do a good set with bootlegs / pressings...well of course you could, thats the point. I could do a killer northern set with boots and I'm not even a northern dj and that's the point - i'm not the one you want playing northern, i only have a vague knowledge of it.

i might do a great set but then what? Only one option - i play my set of obvious boots again and again, adding the odd one maybe, but essentially i might as well be a robot or a lap top, as i'm adding zero of my own initiative or imagination. Basically why me and not you behind the decks?

its not about the audio mechanics of playing a single record. no one would notice if i swapped an original for a boot in a set, that isnt the point. The point is that everyone knows that i dont need to be playing no boots because i had the originals before they were booted, and if i didn't, then one of the other djs has, and we've got loads more besides, and if none of us have got the original, then fuck it, it doesnt get played til one of us gets it, what's the rush? And then finally, when it is heard, its heard in the right environment, with its novelty intact.

like when mace played the nightriders for the first time at our club few weeks ago. We could have played it off boot for years but we didnt so that the right person would have that privilage when they got a copy. that's exceptional though, and a shame when it happens that way round. no bootlegs, and it wouldnt, and the track wouldn't be degraded in the countries pubs before it got played at a proper club

I personally am not listening to any bootleg dj or going to any club where they at, cos they're not offering anything unique, so I dont see why they're up behind the decks over any other random person - it really is the ultimate conceit. The only exception would be if someone was a top top party dj at a non specialist club, in which case ovo goes out the window. Such djs are happy to play off laptops or 12"s though in my experience and dont need to be pretending to have a rare record.

I have no problem with that, its purely the passing off that I have an issue with. I dont even care about the legal issues that much. Just the representation of the music being in the hands of those who care and who dont pretend to be something they're not ;

fakery and short-cuts - not exactly sign of good character is it?

Edited January 3, 2015 by pow wow mik

[Bazza]

Mellorfull, thanks for your reply. I think the point is being missed though. Firstly, of course collecting originals doesn't make someone a dj; that is to re-arrange the logic. A good knowledgable dj just will necesarily collect originals - they'd have to in order to have newies and rarities - and therefore dont need to play boots. Its irrelevent that some collectors make bad djs. The whole debate needs to start from an assumption that were talking about people who can dj, as there will be those who can and can't in both camps, cancelling each other out.

it is also irrelevent that you could do a good set with bootlegs / pressings...well of course you could, thats the point. I could do a killer northern set with boots and I'm not even a northern dj and that's the point - i'm not the one you want playing northern, i only have a vague knowledge of it.

i might do a great set but then what? Only one option - i play my set of obvious boots again and again, adding the odd one maybe, but essentially i might as well be a robot or a lap top, as i'm adding zero of my own initiative or imagination. Basically why me and not you behind the decks?

its not about the audio mechanics of playing a single record. no one would notice if i swapped an original for a boot in a set, that isnt the point. The point is that everyone knows that i dont need to be playing no boots because i had the originals before they were booted, and if i didn't, then one of the other djs has, and we've got loads more besides, and if none of us have got the original, then f*ck it, it doesnt get played til one of us gets it, what's the rush? And then finally, when it is heard, its heard in the right environment, with its novelty intact.

like when mace played the nightriders for the first time at our club few weeks ago. We could have played it off boot for years but we didnt so that the right person would have that privilage when they got a copy. that's exceptional though, and a shame when it happens that way round. no bootlegs, and it wouldnt, and the track wouldn't be degraded in the countries pubs before it got played at a proper club

I personally am not listening to any bootleg dj or going to any club where they at, cos they're not offering anything unique, so I dont see why they're up behind the decks over any other random person - it really is the ultimate conceit. The only exception would be if someone was a top top party dj at a non specialist club, in which case ovo goes out the window. Such djs are happy to play off laptops or 12"s though in my experience and dont need to be pretending to have a rare record.

I have no problem with that, its purely the passing off that I have an issue with. I dont even care about the legal issues that much. Just the representation of the music being in the hands of those who care and who dont pretend to be something they're not ;

fakery and short-cuts - not exactly sign of good character is it?

Mik ,I don't who you are but I find you a little arrogant and irritaing ,you throw comments about as if they are fact ,when the only true fact is " its your opinion "

 

Bazza 

[givemesoul]

what he said and if it wasn't for boots the seen would be dead

[givemesoul]

scene lol