Frankie Crocker Posted December 29, 2014 Share Posted December 29, 2014 With vinyl 45's still being pressed in the USA, Europe and other places, the technology is still out there. If someone turned up the masters for a rare record, could it still be repressed after all these years? One would guess yes, but any serious collector would be highly suspicious. The batch of Oxford Knights on Delphi that turned up over ten years ago looked like they had been pressed recently QED and doubts still linger about the provenance of this record. The good news is, recently pressed records just look too new so collectors aren't easily duped whilst the older production processes can't be replicated perfectly. It is therefore unlikely that fraudsters would be able to clone the rarest records successfully. 1 Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Pete S Posted December 29, 2014 Share Posted December 29, 2014 (edited) Earlier this year I sold an original Del Larks issue and the chap I sold it to was actually suspicious because it was in fact mint, so he took it to Prestatyn to compare it to another dj's original. I don't blame him, paying such a lot of money, but it proves that even in 2014, a mint copy of a rarity can turn up. I'm not over the moon about having my integrity questioned when it comes to selling originals, but as I say, I guess if I was paying a lot of money and wasn't 100% sure, I'd check as well. Incidentally the copy was found in the UK! Edited December 29, 2014 by Pete S 3 Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Ian Dewhirst Posted December 29, 2014 Share Posted December 29, 2014 Earlier this year I sold an original Del Larks issue and the chap I sold it to was actually suspicious because it was in fact mint, so he took it to Prestatyn to compare it to another dj's original. I don't blame him, paying such a lot of money, but it proves that even in 2014, a mint copy of a rarity can turn up. I'm not over the moon about having my integrity questioned when it comes to selling originals, but as I say, I guess if I was paying a lot of money and wasn't 100% sure, I'd check as well. Incidentally the copy was found in the UK! I think most of the Del-Larks were found in the UK Pete. I seem to remember Jim Wilson @ Shoreditch turning 'em up amongst all the doo-wop he had at the time. That's certainly where mine came from....... Ian D Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 29, 2014 Share Posted December 29, 2014 (edited) they couldn't get it right...even when they used the same plant, stampers, paper & everything there were still tell tale indicators Best RussHow do we know?? If they got it bang on right we will never know, because everyone would think it was an original!The only fakes we know about are the one's that are wrong in some small way or another. Any that are spot on will never be found out!For example, if the Monarch pressing plant had used the original numbers for the remakes/pressings they made in the 70's no one would be able to tell the difference. They were all done on the same/similar machines from 10 years earlier, but they gave it all away by using the Delta number then a higher number than the original release. Edited December 29, 2014 by Guest Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Quinvy Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 Which records are you talking about? We were discussing whether it would be possible to produce them now rather than in the seventies. The world has moved on a hell of a lot since then. Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
ricticman Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 As ever, always impressed with the collective knowledge on SS. No sarcasm - I mean it. I think this thread shows why any chance of a large scale crim. bootlegging scam is very small - the web comms and knowledge swapping and sharing means it probably wouldn't work. It might of worked 'last century' before SS and similar were created, and knowledge was more ' word of mouth '. I'm far more nervous about cyber scamming when buying a [ bigger ] tune ? Especially when the seller is not known to me, but I can't resist 'engaging ' in the chase for the record. Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
paultp Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 How do we know?? If they got it bang on right we will never know, because everyone would think it was an original! The only fakes we know about are the one's that are wrong in some small way or another. Any that are spot on will never be found out! For example, if the Monarch pressing plant had used the original numbers for the remakes/pressings they made in the 70's no one would be able to tell the difference. They were all done on the same/similar machines from 10 years earlier, but they gave it all away by using the Delta number then a higher number than the original release. Monarch didn't "give it all away" as they weren't trying to fool anyone, they were legitimately pressing re-issues on behalf of record labels. That's why they used the numbers that they did. The argument is that it isn't possible to fake an original that would fool everyone, so to say the only fakes we know about are those that are wrong just backs up that argument. If there's a way of getting the vinyl, the label, the font, the ink etc etc correct it would be known about. 1 Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Pete S Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 Monarch didn't "give it all away" as they weren't trying to fool anyone, they were legitimately pressing re-issues on behalf of record labels. That's why they used the numbers that they did. The argument is that it isn't possible to fake an original that would fool everyone, so to say the only fakes we know about are those that are wrong just backs up that argument. If there's a way of getting the vinyl, the label, the font, the ink etc etc correct it would be known about. They were obviously just pressing anything with no questions asked, not on behalf of record labels, on behalf of certain individuals - 90% of Monarch Northern stuff from the 70's is bootleg material 1 Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Trev Thomas Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 They were obviously just pressing anything with no questions asked, not on behalf of record labels, on behalf of certain individuals - 90% of Monarch Northern stuff from the 70's is bootleg material pressed on behalf of a jolly little frenchman from leeds Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Funky 4 Corners Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 May be not a great example but in the early 80s the Japanese bought loads of old manufacturing equipment from Levi's in the States, anything from rivet makers to sewing machines to letter presses for labels, also weaving looms from cone denim mills. Their various repros are very hard to detect indeed and only distinguishable because of modern washing instruction labels that can be removed. 1 Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Zoomsoulblue Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 Surely faking rare stamps or even bank notes would be easier on the basis that there's less elements to reproduce.....? Ian D Met a guy back in the 80ts got guilty on 20 million of Dutch gilders did 8 years - i guess it's risk over gain Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Ian Dewhirst Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 Met a guy back in the 80ts got guilty on 20 million of Dutch gilders did 8 years - i guess it's risk over gain So, 2.5 million guilders per year. Mmm. Not bad....... Ian D Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
ulyssees Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 I know for a fact there are some fake bell sound acetates in circulation that were manufactured years ago and have changed hands several times for big money. yule. Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Mellorful Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 Met a guy back in the 80ts got guilty on 20 million of Dutch gilders did 8 years - i guess it's risk over gain Nation states get a bit touchy about counterfeiting their currency but I doubt they would give a damn about records pressed in the 60's for low profile artists, many of whom have passed away and wont be complaining. That's why I suspect in due course the criminal minds will get round to working out they can make money from counterfeiting records (not just NS) which can be sold for four figures and cost very little to produce once the pressing plates are accurately created. We may never know if they have already started unless by some good fortune the police (not necessarily in the UK) accidently stumble across the pressing plant in operation; and these police officers dont take a bribe. Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Ian Dewhirst Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 We may never know if they have already started unless by some good fortune the police (not necessarily in the UK) accidently stumble across the pressing plant in operation; and these police officers dont take a bribe. Well, the biggest selling record of the last year (Pharrell William's "Happy") was bootlegged on 7" vinyl, so I guess anything's possible... Ian D Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Chalky Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 (edited) I know for a fact there are some fake bell sound acetates in circulation that were manufactured years ago and have changed hands several times for big money. yule. some Virtue ones as well, you could buy original 60's blanks on ebay a few years ago Edited December 30, 2014 by chalky 1 Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Russ Vickers Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 For example, if the Monarch pressing plant had used the original numbers for the remakes/pressings they made in the 70's no one would be able to tell the difference. They were all done on the same/similar machines from 10 years earlier, but they gave it all away by using the Delta number then a higher number than the original release. Exactly. Russ Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
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