Counterfeit Records

[Chatty]

After recent finds could we say without fear of contradiction that it would be impossible to make a counterfeit that would fool everyone?

Especially one like say the DB which is the first on that label to appear so no one as reference to any other for comparison? Art forgers have managed to knock up Rembrants etc that have fooled " the experts" for years, and the price these top end records are fetching it must be worthwhile if possible?

There are plenty of  people who are convinced man never stepped on the moon and it was all a con, counterfeiting a 7 inch piece of vinyl in comparison would be a doddle surely?

Edited December 24, 2014 by chatty

[MarkWhiteley]

I think it's highly possible, and quite likely. In the grand scheme, serious art collectors employ experts who use scientific aids to determine originality.

So at what price do the record buyers start using the same, ie vinyl dating/label paper ageing to ascertain credibility ? 

[Quinvy]

Carbon dating. 

 

They'll be giving JM a job on The Antiques Roadshow as an expert next. 

[MarkWhiteley]

Yes, John may have to invest in some rather high-end equipment for future bootleg guides 

[Zed1]

Before handing over tens of £k of your hard earned on a record, no matter how 'real' it looks you'd be wanting a little provenance/history to go along with it, ie a known collector selling some of his long term collection would be a safer bet than buying from some low feedback seller on ebay who says he just found his mint Darrel Banks at a car boot.

[NEV]

Can't imagine it being that hard to counterfeit something that was mass produced on a machine ,but looking at ebay sales lately and the prices that some of the ,let's say ,"not so convincing " boots ,have been fetching .... perhaps the people paying for them should be doing at least ,some  research ,rather than just concentrate on desperately pressing the buttons on ebay !

[paultp]

Buy records with a bit of crackle and pop and a couple of big red X's on the label, then you know you have an original.

 

I always worry when I receive a record and it's in fantastic condition.

[MarkWhiteley]

Ive been there Nev   especially when I just come in pi**ed 

[stokesoulboy]

The only saving grace is that record manufacturing has changed over the years, making it quicker and low cost to actually produce vinyl records .

And the uk pressing plants such as pye Decca etc have long gone , so uk wise your pretty safe for now until someone creates a vintage press from scratch , plus the way things are recorded from source (digital) means that it's not taken from acetate and also run out grooves will have no machine stamp .

Not saying it could not be done but it would have tell tail signs !

Merry Xmas and happy hunting

[Chalky]

Nothing is impossible but the outlay compared to the returns would probably be off putting.  Besides tracking down original vinyl, paper and especially inks would be extremely difficult if not nigh on impossible.

[Davenpete]

Paper and matrix stamps would be the hard bit - printing ink is printing ink (especially the matrix stamp - they'd need to be cut by a gravure die maker, though paper is also difficult nowadays as the range of papers commercially made has massively reduced in recent years) - you'd probably need to be working at a senior level in a pressing plant and have the expertise in mastering to make a set of matching plates (remember that many stamps have querks like uneven indentation etc) - though I remember that Vince Ayers had the actual original plates for I'm Not Destined to Become A Loser.

 

Dx

[Rick Smith]

Since most of us will never spend thousands on a single 45 I guess it doesnt really matter to most.

[Rick Smith]

I hope they don't use the press plant that did the Motown 7's box sets!!!!!

[Chalky]

Paper and matrix stamps would be the hard bit - printing ink is printing ink (especially the matrix stamp - they'd need to be cut by a gravure die maker, though paper is also difficult nowadays as the range of papers commercially made has massively reduced in recent years) - you'd probably need to be working at a senior level in a pressing plant and have the expertise in mastering to make a set of matching plates (remember that many stamps have querks like uneven indentation etc) - though I remember that Vince Ayers had the actual original plates for I'm Not Destined to Become A Loser.

 

Dx

 

I would have thought many ingredients in ink have changed completely, I know paint is completely different to what it was 10 years ago due to health and safety legislation never mind 30/40 years ago.

 

I would think that anything done today to deceive would soon be rumbled no matter how good.  I also think someone would have done it by now if it was profitable.

[Davenpete]

No change in inks to speak of (or indeed paints except for the appearance of new acrylic based paints - oils and water colours are unchanged) - the pigments are aniline dye based - invented in the 1860s. The carriers may be SLIGHTLY different - but that's like the difference between cellulose paint and water based paint on a car - I certainly couldn't tell the difference in the inks on paper.

 

As noted, to make an exact copy of a specific example of a single (i.e. one particular copy) would be very difficult (the main issue being the mastering of the plates to be exactly the same - number of runout grooves and matrices being the hardest job) - but if you had unlimited access to the gear and the skills you could certainly do it - at least close enough to be within the range of variance between different examples of the same extremely rare single.

 

Dx

[Mellorful]

What happened to the old US pressing plant? I suspect it would be exported to China, India and Bangladesh.

Could the Chinese etc melt down cheap old styrere and repress it? the answer is yes

So we have old plant and materials that could be used.

 

Paper and Ink are the next elements required.

The rural Chinese, Indian and Bangladeshi industies are more than capable of manufacturing paper the old fashioned way if there is money to be made using old recycled paper if necessary. Indeed old Chinese, Indian and Bangladesh printing plant are probably still in use using the old type of printing inks.

 

Can they recreate inks the old fashioned way? Of course they can and in rural China, India and Bangladesh they are probably using the old materials to work on old printing plant.

 

Now the killer question..... is it economically viable to put the old materials, plant and machinery to use bootlegging?

All they need is access to an original to ensure engraving is matched perfectly.

 

If crimnals could produce 100 Tomangoes selling at £5K a piece = £500K income for materials and labour with a value of £500 in some back water, do you think some criminal will take advantage of buyers wanting OVO and make a massive profit?

Then think which other big tunes could be copied, Mello Souls, Salvadors, Lou Pride, Eddie Parker, etc

Then the slightly less expensive tunes such as Hamilton Movement, Cashmeres, Parisians

 

Suddenly the criminal gains several £million profit for little effort, some cheap materials and cheap labour in a back water where law enforcement authorites have little interest in pursuit...... 

These counterfeit items could then be moved round the world to pay for other criminal activity and by pass money laundering restrictions so they dont need to carry cash..... What they don't do is flood the market with thousands of counterfeits to attract attention of the authorities or drive downthe value of the recently manufactured counterfeits.

 

Criminals are probably already ahead of the game. 

[KevH]

I am going off to "print" a Del-Larks on my new 3d printer. Have a great Chrimbo..!!

[Chalky]

What happened to the old US pressing plant? I suspect it would be exported to China, India and Bangladesh.

Could the Chinese etc melt down cheap old styrere and repress it? the answer is yes

So we have old plant and materials that could be used.

 

Paper and Ink are the next elements required.

The rural Chinese, Indian and Bangladeshi industies are more than capable of manufacturing paper the old fashioned way if there is money to be made using old recycled paper if necessary. Indeed old Chinese, Indian and Bangladesh printing plant are probably still in use using the old type of printing inks.

 

Can they recreate inks the old fashioned way? Of course they can and in rural China, India and Bangladesh they are probably using the old materials to work on old printing plant.

 

Now the killer question..... is it economically viable to put the old materials, plant and machinery to use bootlegging?

All they need is access to an original to ensure engraving is matched perfectly.

 

If crimnals could produce 100 Tomangoes selling at £5K a piece = £500K income for materials and labour with a value of £500 in some back water, do you think some criminal will take advantage of buyers wanting OVO and make a massive profit?

Then think which other big tunes could be copied, Mello Souls, Salvadors, Lou Pride, Eddie Parker, etc

Then the slightly less expensive tunes such as Hamilton Movement, Cashmeres, Parisians

 

Suddenly the criminal gains several £million profit for little effort, some cheap materials and cheap labour in a back water where law enforcement authorites have little interest in pursuit...... 

These counterfeit items could then be moved round the world to pay for other criminal activity and by pass money laundering restrictions so they dont need to carry cash..... What they don't do is flood the market with thousands of counterfeits to attract attention of the authorities or drive downthe value of the recently manufactured counterfeits.

 

Criminals are probably already ahead of the game. 

 

You only have to see something listed twice on ebay before thers is a topic on here and questions asked.  It is one of the most mistrusting markets there is and I doubt there are any records worth going to the kind of trouble and hassle you metion above.  Suspicions would be raised and probably proven very quickly. 

[Thecivilservice]

What happened to the old US pressing plant? I suspect it would be exported to China, India and Bangladesh.

Could the Chinese etc melt down cheap old styrere and repress it? the answer is yes

So we have old plant and materials that could be used.

 

Paper and Ink are the next elements required.

The rural Chinese, Indian and Bangladeshi industies are more than capable of manufacturing paper the old fashioned way if there is money to be made using old recycled paper if necessary. Indeed old Chinese, Indian and Bangladesh printing plant are probably still in use using the old type of printing inks.

 

Can they recreate inks the old fashioned way? Of course they can and in rural China, India and Bangladesh they are probably using the old materials to work on old printing plant.

 

Now the killer question..... is it economically viable to put the old materials, plant and machinery to use bootlegging?

All they need is access to an original to ensure engraving is matched perfectly.

 

If crimnals could produce 100 Tomangoes selling at £5K a piece = £500K income for materials and labour with a value of £500 in some back water, do you think some criminal will take advantage of buyers wanting OVO and make a massive profit?

Then think which other big tunes could be copied, Mello Souls, Salvadors, Lou Pride, Eddie Parker, etc

Then the slightly less expensive tunes such as Hamilton Movement, Cashmeres, Parisians

 

Suddenly the criminal gains several £million profit for little effort, some cheap materials and cheap labour in a back water where law enforcement authorites have little interest in pursuit...... 

These counterfeit items could then be moved round the world to pay for other criminal activity and by pass money laundering restrictions so they dont need to carry cash..... What they don't do is flood the market with thousands of counterfeits to attract attention of the authorities or drive downthe value of the recently manufactured counterfeits.

 

Criminals are probably already ahead of the game. 

Release 100 of any of these records and then the value of each is no longer 5K due to the increased supply = why this sort of scam will never be profitable enough to actually happen

[Dunc]

What happened to the old US pressing plant? I suspect it would be exported to China, India and Bangladesh.

Could the Chinese etc melt down cheap old styrere and repress it? the answer is yes

So we have old plant and materials that could be used.

 

Paper and Ink are the next elements required.

The rural Chinese, Indian and Bangladeshi industies are more than capable of manufacturing paper the old fashioned way if there is money to be made using old recycled paper if necessary. Indeed old Chinese, Indian and Bangladesh printing plant are probably still in use using the old type of printing inks.

 

Can they recreate inks the old fashioned way? Of course they can and in rural China, India and Bangladesh they are probably using the old materials to work on old printing plant.

 

Now the killer question..... is it economically viable to put the old materials, plant and machinery to use bootlegging?

All they need is access to an original to ensure engraving is matched perfectly.

 

If crimnals could produce 100 Tomangoes selling at £5K a piece = £500K income for materials and labour with a value of £500 in some back water, do you think some criminal will take advantage of buyers wanting OVO and make a massive profit?

Then think which other big tunes could be copied, Mello Souls, Salvadors, Lou Pride, Eddie Parker, etc

Then the slightly less expensive tunes such as Hamilton Movement, Cashmeres, Parisians

 

Suddenly the criminal gains several £million profit for little effort, some cheap materials and cheap labour in a back water where law enforcement authorites have little interest in pursuit...... 

These counterfeit items could then be moved round the world to pay for other criminal activity and by pass money laundering restrictions so they dont need to carry cash..... What they don't do is flood the market with thousands of counterfeits to attract attention of the authorities or drive downthe value of the recently manufactured counterfeits.

 

Criminals are probably already ahead of the game. 

You causing trouble again on ere    

[Quinvy]

You only have to see something listed twice on ebay before thers is a topic on here and questions asked.  It is one of the most mistrusting markets there is and I doubt there are any records worth going to the kind of trouble and hassle you metion above.  Suspicions would be raised and probably proven very quickly. 

Obsolutely right. You would have to limit yourself to producing just one copy of each record, otherwise suspicions would be raised and values would tumble overnight.

[Chalky]

Release 100 of any of these records and then the value of each is no longer 5K due to the increased supply = why this sort of scam will never be profitable enough to actually happen

 

There is probably more to be made out of crappy boots than there is any high class forgery/counterfeit.

[Quinvy]

There is probably more to be made out of crappy boots than there is any high class forgery/counterfeit.

Bootlegging boots.

 

Third issue. 

[Dunc]

Bootlegging boots.

 

They did not boot "Shoes" by bobby bland did they

[Tony Smith]

No change in inks to speak of (or indeed paints except for the appearance of new acrylic based paints - oils and water colours are unchanged) - the pigments are aniline dye based - invented in the 1860s. The carriers may be SLIGHTLY different - but that's like the difference between cellulose paint and water based paint on a car - I certainly couldn't tell the difference in the inks on paper.

 

As noted, to make an exact copy of a specific example of a single (i.e. one particular copy) would be very difficult (the main issue being the mastering of the plates to be exactly the same - number of runout grooves and matrices being the hardest job) - but if you had unlimited access to the gear and the skills you could certainly do it - at least close enough to be within the range of variance between different examples of the same extremely rare single.

 

Dx

 

No change in inks to speak of (or indeed paints except for the appearance of new acrylic based paints - oils and water colours are unchanged) - the pigments are aniline dye based - invented in the 1860s. The carriers may be SLIGHTLY different - but that's like the difference between cellulose paint and water based paint on a car - I certainly couldn't tell the difference in the inks on paper.

 

As noted, to make an exact copy of a specific example of a single (i.e. one particular copy) would be very difficult (the main issue being the mastering of the plates to be exactly the same - number of runout grooves and matrices being the hardest job) - but if you had unlimited access to the gear and the skills you could certainly do it - at least close enough to be within the range of variance between different examples of the same extremely rare single.

 

Dx

I'd disagree with that totally, the entire printing industry has changed significantly since I was apprenticed in the litho trade, the chemicals and inks used 50 years ago would get any printer shut down immediately!

[Dunc]

I'd disagree with that totally, the entire printing industry has changed significantly since I was apprenticed in the litho trade, the chemicals and inks used 50 years ago would get any printer shut down immediately!

Surely if you had access to the original presses, inks and stamps from an old pressing plant it may be possible to recreate what you need. Got a Danny Moore on Allrite n it looks new. Always doubted this but have others like it, so who knows. It must  be possible that if you have all the right tools (ie. pressing plant and correct blank vinyl) it can be done. Nothings impossible with the correct tools for the job!

[Tony Smith]

Surely if you had access to the original presses, inks and stamps from an old pressing plant it may be possible to recreate what you need. Got a Danny Moore on Allrite n it looks new. Always doubted this but have others like it, so who knows. It must  be possible that if you have all the right tools (ie. pressing plant and correct blank vinyl) it can be done. Nothings impossible with the correct tools for the job!

The likelihood of that of practically nil in the UK, The Danny Moore's that were found in the US were all the unsold stock.

 

Blank vinyl?, what do you mean by that exactly, records aren't cut on to blanks, like carvers are.

[Cover-up]

After recent finds could we say without fear of contradiction that it would be impossible to make a counterfeit that would fool everyone?

Especially one like say the DB which is the first on that label to appear so no one as reference to any other for comparison? Art forgers have managed to knock up Rembrants etc that have fooled " the experts" for years, and the price these top end records are fetching it must be worthwhile if possible?

There are plenty of  people who are convinced man never stepped on the moon and it was all a con, counterfeiting a 7 inch piece of vinyl in comparison would be a doddle surely?

 

Playing devil's advocate, I did find myself pondering the possibility that someone could get a Darrell Banks London demo, scrub off the label and glue on a new black and silver version of the label. Cut round the centre prongs with a sharp scalpel until you got it bang on. If you botched it, just scrub off the label and keep going until you got it right. Printing silver ink onto black paper? Not exactly difficult...

[Labeat]

Playing devil's advocate, I did find myself pondering the possibility that someone could get a Darrell Banks London demo, scrub off the label and glue on a new black and silver version of the label. Cut round the centre prongs with a sharp scalpel until you got it bang on. If you botched it, just scrub off the label and keep going until you got it right. Printing silver ink onto black paper? Not exactly difficult...

 

Thanks for the advice, i'll have a go this afternoon, few grand in my pocket comin up

[Godzilla]

I'd disagree with that totally, the entire printing industry has changed significantly since I was apprenticed in the litho trade, the chemicals and inks used 50 years ago would get any printer shut down immediately!

 

Don't you come in here spoiling this thread with your actual facts and experience. You'll only ruin it for all the proper experts...

[Tobytyke]

What happened to the old US pressing plant? I suspect it would be exported to China, India and Bangladesh.

Could the Chinese etc melt down cheap old styrere and repress it? the answer is yes

So we have old plant and materials that could be used.

 

Paper and Ink are the next elements required.

The rural Chinese, Indian and Bangladeshi industies are more than capable of manufacturing paper the old fashioned way if there is money to be made using old recycled paper if necessary. Indeed old Chinese, Indian and Bangladesh printing plant are probably still in use using the old type of printing inks.

 

Can they recreate inks the old fashioned way? Of course they can and in rural China, India and Bangladesh they are probably using the old materials to work on old printing plant.

 

Now the killer question..... is it economically viable to put the old materials, plant and machinery to use bootlegging?

All they need is access to an original to ensure engraving is matched perfectly.

 

If crimnals could produce 100 Tomangoes selling at £5K a piece = £500K income for materials and labour with a value of £500 in some back water, do you think some criminal will take advantage of buyers wanting OVO and make a massive profit?

Then think which other big tunes could be copied, Mello Souls, Salvadors, Lou Pride, Eddie Parker, etc

Then the slightly less expensive tunes such as Hamilton Movement, Cashmeres, Parisians

 

Suddenly the criminal gains several £million profit for little effort, some cheap materials and cheap labour in a back water where law enforcement authorites have little interest in pursuit...... 

These counterfeit items could then be moved round the world to pay for other criminal activity and by pass money laundering restrictions so they dont need to carry cash..... What they don't do is flood the market with thousands of counterfeits to attract attention of the authorities or drive downthe value of the recently manufactured counterfeits.

 

Criminals are probably already ahead of the game. 

This has the makings of a best selling novel !

[Labeat]

What happened to the old US pressing plant? I suspect it would be exported to China, India and Bangladesh.

Could the Chinese etc melt down cheap old styrere and repress it? the answer is yes

So we have old plant and materials that could be used.

 

Paper and Ink are the next elements required.

The rural Chinese, Indian and Bangladeshi industies are more than capable of manufacturing paper the old fashioned way if there is money to be made using old recycled paper if necessary. Indeed old Chinese, Indian and Bangladesh printing plant are probably still in use using the old type of printing inks.

 

Can they recreate inks the old fashioned way? Of course they can and in rural China, India and Bangladesh they are probably using the old materials to work on old printing plant.

 

Now the killer question..... is it economically viable to put the old materials, plant and machinery to use bootlegging?

All they need is access to an original to ensure engraving is matched perfectly.

 

If crimnals could produce 100 Tomangoes selling at £5K a piece = £500K income for materials and labour with a value of £500 in some back water, do you think some criminal will take advantage of buyers wanting OVO and make a massive profit?

Then think which other big tunes could be copied, Mello Souls, Salvadors, Lou Pride, Eddie Parker, etc

Then the slightly less expensive tunes such as Hamilton Movement, Cashmeres, Parisians

 

Suddenly the criminal gains several £million profit for little effort, some cheap materials and cheap labour in a back water where law enforcement authorites have little interest in pursuit...... 

These counterfeit items could then be moved round the world to pay for other criminal activity and by pass money laundering restrictions so they dont need to carry cash..... What they don't do is flood the market with thousands of counterfeits to attract attention of the authorities or drive downthe value of the recently manufactured counterfeits.

 

Criminals are probably already ahead of the game. 

Lets all go on a bike ride round rural China & India, see what we can salvage in the knackers yards

[Ian Dewhirst]

I'd disagree with that totally, the entire printing industry has changed significantly since I was apprenticed in the litho trade, the chemicals and inks used 50 years ago would get any printer shut down immediately!

 

Additionally, the vinyl pressing trade has also changed massively in the last 50 years. When I was running Simply Vinyl in the late 90s I was told there were only 2 suppliers of vinyl pellets left in the world at that point. I'm not even sure that they used vinyl pellets in the 60s and I'm also pretty sure that the quality of vinyl changed after the Oil crisis of the early 70s. I think it would be near on impossible to replicate the vinyl of the 60s and certainly that would be the first thing I would look at for a comparison....

 

Ian D 

[Rob Wigley]

Probably most will agree that when an "iffy" record drops into your hands it just doesn't feel right ! I suppose years of handling records gives you the experience !

 

Rob  

[Guest]

Would it really be that hard with the many things that have been copied - it could be done in my view records are serious money now I would say most people have been caught out one time or another when buying originals ? and if they haven't you've been one of the lucky ones as for the top end stuff if you don't do the homework you pay the price and hope everything's ok  - Anderson Brothers was one I failed on many years ago

[Chalky]

Would it really be that hard with the many things that have been copied - it could be done in my view records are serious money now I would say most people have been caught out one time or another when buying originals ? and if they haven't you've been one of the lucky ones as for the top end stuff if you don't do the homework you pay the price and hope everything's ok  - Anderson Brothers was one I failed on many years ago

 

People have been caught out, but not for long, that is the crux of this.  I doubt you would catch out the experienced dealer or a collector who knows what tell tale signs to look for.  Those that this type of market is or would be aimed at by the looks of the bootleg/carver market don't seem to care anyway so why go to the trouble of trying to replicate something which is practically impossible to do.  As said the inks, paper and vinyl have changed tremendously since the 60's.  Methods alone are very different let alone the ingredients.  And the cost involved trying to attempt something like this would far outweigh the returns.

 

As soon as a minter appears on ebay, questions are asked, as soon as a second or third copy appears chances are whoever has been rumbled, real or not.  You have to remember people watch nothing but ebay, sales lists, forum sales etc, they can spot anomalies a mile off.

[Geordiejohnson]

Buy records with a bit of crackle and pop and a couple of big red X's on the label, then you know you have an original.

 

I always worry when I receive a record and it's in fantastic condition.

 

 If there are xs on the label i would be very wary,  old ploy of some fakers to make it look legit this was (i'm Told) mainly used on demos to ID the play side, but not that common on issues, (i can be corrected on that comment by someone more knowledgable on label marking than me) somewhere in the past threads of Ssource theres a section just on that about 2004/5ish..  thankfully ive got some very knowledgeable collector friends who know more than i, and I always seek advice before making the plunge these days however i have been hoodwinked in the past and has many a dealer has been caught in the past so there must be near perfect boots out there that will fool.

 

and i reply to Mr Dewhirst comment hes quite right regarding the availability of Blank pellets in the 90's,  being 10 years working with polymers in the past, more on bio degradation and more so at a molecular level,  I know to re-produce carbon black pellets for pressings is a most basic of formula, so that aside it would be easy to produce a masterbatch, The reason there were only two suppliers in the 90's was due to demand and the reduction of vinyl as a music media at the time the demand had dropped by 82% of its original requirement due to the high level of Cd's and other media developing (hence the demise of my beloved cassette tapes my car will never be the same with that jammed casette and reams of tapes spewing from that wonderfull slot as i tried to salvage my beloved tunes LOL)

 

But many of the PVC manufacturers/suppliers of the 60's upwards could make the Blank pellets without blinking, some pellets were recycled old or failed tunes melted and repressed with plasticicers etc in it to maintain its structure,  i know of 3 companies in the UK today that could produce them, but for such small quantities I dont think it really wouldnt be worth it BUT you can get a PVC to look aged from pressing..depends on the additives etc you put in to blend your masterbatch,  in short anythings possible..but not until recently commercially viable.

But in india there are huge amount of manufacturers using old equipment bought from the Uk and the US and totally refurbed for manufacturing some really small almost cottage industries, but they are there, the raw cost of polymers recently has dropped like a stone. so getting them now maybe not that expensive.

 

The key for the bootlegger is to get the pressing just right there were different thicknesses fromm 110-130grams but there were some even thinner at under 100grams even RCA experimented with ultra thin Dynaflex in the 70s which was just that,  so to boot is a fine art, one wonders why anyone goes to so much trouble.... they will be caught out by a keen eye on the label and a good sense of smell, the key to new manufacturing isnt the look... get your nostrils on it... wins everytime its still vents for a while... ever sniffed a kids toy..

 

geeooooordie

[Davenpete]

I'd disagree with that totally, the entire printing industry has changed significantly since I was apprenticed in the litho trade, the chemicals and inks used 50 years ago would get any printer shut down immediately!

Getting silly - you cannot tell the ink when it's on the paper which is what matters, regardless of the carrier.

And Godzilla - actual facts and experience? How about 30 years buying print for my clients and current spending £200k a year on it?

Dx

Edited December 28, 2014 by DaveNPete

[Godzilla]

Getting silly - you cannot tell the ink when it's on the paper which is what matters, regardless of the carrier.

And Godzilla - actual facts and experience? How about 30 years buying print for my clients and current spending £200k a year on it?

Dx

Fair enough. It doesn't mean that a lot of this thread is pure fantasy though. I understand why people want to believe - it's because records are close to us, they're significant. In the real world however, anyone who wanted to make money by faking things would of course stick to objects with mass appeal, that they could forge easily and sell for guaranteed decent profit, rather than chance their arm in the highly volatile and relatively low interest record market. Armani handbags from Turkey anyone?

[Shinehead]

What is silly is thinking anyone would go to the trouble of trying to produce counterfeits of really rare records and try to pass them off as the real thing, people have too much knowledge now to fall for those scams anymore.

If you are going to make boots and the like just do what has been done since the early 70s and beyond, make them to supply the demand that is already there , theres no need to fool anyone it is still a lucrative market just look on ebay loads of the stuff and just like counterfeit clothes ,etc. people buy it because its cheap or they do not know any better.

Edited December 28, 2014 by shinehead

[Guest]

People have been caught out, but not for long, that is the crux of this.  I doubt you would catch out the experienced dealer or a collector who knows what tell tale signs to look for.  Those that this type of market is or would be aimed at by the looks of the bootleg/carver market don't seem to care anyway so why go to the trouble of trying to replicate something which is practically impossible to do.  As said the inks, paper and vinyl have changed tremendously since the 60's.  Methods alone are very different let alone the ingredients.  And the cost involved trying to attempt something like this would far outweigh the returns.

 

As soon as a minter appears on ebay, questions are asked, as soon as a second or third copy appears chances are whoever has been rumbled, real or not.  You have to remember people watch nothing but ebay, sales lists, forum sales etc, they can spot anomalies a mile off.

Fair point and understand what you are saying it would be a lot of time and trouble but the return in numbers pressed its still a fact that is possible Imo yes info to id 45,s now is much more readily available and most you can tell easy to the original - more & more very rare ? high end 45s seem to be coming to market every year not ones that have done the circuit  interesting ???????????

[Russ Vickers]

Does anyone ever listen on here....the chances of anyone booting owt that would fool the scene long term are virtually nil....even back in the day, when all the materials were still available & some of the stampers they couldn't get it right...even when they used the same plant, stampers, paper & everything there were still tell tale indicators.....there have been recent cases were folk have tried & they still get found out.....OMG !!!

 

Best Russ

[paultp]

As Chalky said earlier, it simply wouldn't make economical sense to try and counterfeit really rare records; as soon as one turns up everyone will scrutinise it, make a load and you lower the price anyway, the cost to do it wouldn't justify the return.

 

I think if anything is worth counterfeiting it is records in the £50 - £100 bracket as they are generally readily available so some well made counterfeits may slip by unnoticed. Pretty sure somebody would notice sooner or later though, there's so much knowledge (and suspicion!) around these days.

 

And as somebody else said; rather than try and counterfeit rare records just put rare tunes on vinyl and sell them for a tenner a time on ebay - having looked on ebay uk that seems to be far more profitable; they sell all the time.

[Ian Dewhirst]

Does anyone ever listen on here....the chances of anyone booting owt that would fool the scene long term are virtually nil....even back in the day, when all the materials were still available & some of the stampers they couldn't get it right...even when they used the same plant, stampers, paper & everything there were still tell tale indicators.....there have been recent cases were folk have tried & they still get found out.....OMG !!!

 

Best Russ

 

As evidenced by the Robby Lawson's which were apparently from the original stampers but still couldn't pass a close examination by experts.......

 

Ian D 

[Quinvy]

And if and when you get the record to look right, the hardest part, getting it to sound right.

[Geordiejohnson]

Does anyone ever listen on here....the chances of anyone booting owt that would fool the scene long term are virtually nil....even back in the day, when all the materials were still available & some of the stampers they couldn't get it right...even when they used the same plant, stampers, paper & everything there were still tell tale indicators.....there have been recent cases were folk have tried & they still get found out.....OMG !!!

 

Best Russ

 Like i said in my post russ, to get it right is a fine art and its just not likely to happen... and not viable... and why worry theres plenty of good tunes to go round.. if i cant find it or afford it, i buy something else... i'll never own everything, and i wouldnt lower myself to own a counterfeit tune just to hoodwink people,  im just happy at what i do own coz there all real ones

 

geeoooordie

[Tony Smith]

Getting silly - you cannot tell the ink when it's on the paper which is what matters, regardless of the carrier.

And Godzilla - actual facts and experience? How about 30 years buying print for my clients and current spending £200k a year on it?

Dx

If that's the case how come so of the recent notorious fakes have been spotted exactly by the fact that the papers and inks looked wrong, and the fakers have taken to trying to age the label by other means?

 

Maybe these mint Eddie Parkers need a closer look??

[Ian Dewhirst]

If that's the case how come so of the recent notorious fakes have been spotted exactly by the fact that the papers and inks looked wrong, and the fakers have taken to trying to age the label by other means?

 

Maybe these mint Eddie Parkers need a closer look??

 

Surely faking rare stamps or even bank notes would be easier on the basis that there's less elements to reproduce.....?

 

Ian D 

Edited December 28, 2014 by Ian Dewhirst

[Shinehead]

Where could you sell these fakes however good they were ? . 

Edited December 29, 2014 by shinehead

[Davenpete]

If that's the case how come so of the recent notorious fakes have been spotted exactly by the fact that the papers and inks looked wrong, and the fakers have taken to trying to age the label by other means?

 

Maybe these mint Eddie Parkers need a closer look??

Bad fakes don't mean it can't be done by someone who knows what they're doing - and from the outset I made the point that it's getting the right paper for a label that is the print issue nowadays (because the lightweight self coloured stocks used for a lot of the really rare labels simply don't exist anymore)...

 

Though the vinyl, matrix and mastering is a much bigger, more complex and more expensive issue (I could artwork up and have suitable gravure dyes produced to do Frankford Wayne, Bellsound, Virtue or whatever matrix fairly easily - but if you were paying for them they'd cost you a good few hundred quid on their own before you even think about doing the mastering and getting hold of the right raw vinyl - or recycling enough of the right vinyl from old 45s).

 

Plus of course you'd need unlimited access to the record in question to do that perfect copy - and of course the opportunity to redo each stage if it wasn't up to snuff.

 

Hypothetically I reckon you could probably do an indistinguishable fake say for about £5k all in, plus an awful lot of hunting around to find the people to actually do the different, highly skilled elements required in doing matching really effectively - but to make it worth your while you'd need to at least triple that in profit (a pretty poxey margin for a crook), so if it was a £5k record you'd need to sell four at full price to even bother doing it... and so four copies of a super sought after sound slip onto the (a very small pool of potential buyers at this price level) market - and people don't notice or question them...AND the price doesn't drop due to their availability meaning you have to sell even more?????

 

Dx

Edited December 29, 2014 by DaveNPete