Tomangoes Acetate ?

[Jim G]

If had I the Tomangoes, Lou Pride, Salvadors etc, I WOULD NOT play them as these days they need protecting and not getting worn out marked etc. I WOULD have them in my DJ box to satisfy the OVO crew but play another copy, legit or not (as not all were released) so people can dance. Just MHO.

Edited November 10, 2014 by jim g

[Chalky]

If had I the Tomangoes, Lou Pride, Salvadors etc, I WOULD NOT play them as these days they need protecting and not getting worn out marked etc. I WOULD have them in my DJ box to satisfy the OVO crew but play another copy, legit or not (as not all were released) so people can dance. Just MHO.

 

Why buy another copy? You migh as well save your money play them frm a cd and have the real one going round the turntable

[Godzilla]

Why buy another copy? You migh as well save your money play them frm a cd and have the real one going round the turntable

Why buy a CD - they're all on youtube. iphone and decent internet connection...

[Dave Pinch]

And so it should.. be it a £2 or £2000 45.. there's enough records to go round

[MrsWoodsrules]

Well in 78 Betty Boo gets played on the acetate or not at all, because as far as I know it was never previously released until Grapevine, so that's totally acceptable & is in fact the acetate is as good an original as far as I'm concerned, seeing as an original doesn't exist.

[Premium Stuff]

Yes, but not Tamangoes, Larry Clinton, Dena Barnes, Edward Hamilton, Precisions, Lester Tipton, Nabay etc

[Billywhizz]

Well in 78 Betty Boo gets played on the acetate or not at all, because as far as I know it was never previously released until Grapevine, so that's totally acceptable & is in fact the acetate is as good an original as far as I'm concerned, seeing as an original doesn't exist.

ady play it at last 100club,so it got to be good , billy

[MrsWoodsrules]

ady play it at last 100club,so it got to be good , billy

Betty Boo Is a magnificent soul record, still sounds great today as it did in WC back then.

I only make the comment about BB because there were no known alternatives, where there are, well that's different subject with OVO and I don't want to get into that.

[Wiggyflat]

Ooh who has a great collection we can book for the next event...who is that bloke we had on last time...yeah i remember him.He was sat behind the decks stroking his Lou Pride while the Simon Saucepan copy was playing.Yeah remember when the mysterious OVO Police stormed the stage and searched his record box and checked his matrix numbers...he had a boot of each original..deejay...play the things.Collector stay at home with your white gloves.

Edited November 10, 2014 by wiggyflat

[Amsterdam Russ]

I think this whole scenario is another great example of the schism that exists on "the scene" today - and I don't believe there's any going back.

 

There's the "rare soul scene" and the "nostalgia Northern scene". One continues the traditions of the original Northern scene - the search for rare vinyl, the desire to play originals only - while the other is simply about reliving those great days all over again. The people attending the nostalgia scene very probably don't give a toss whether something's played on original vinyl or not. All they're interested in is having a dance to their favourite Northern sounds.

 

I think it's time that people on the other scene, ie, the majority of people who frequent Soul Source, just accepted this reality; that there are two scenes with different needs and values in respect to how they hear those great tunes and what they want by way of entertainment.

 

Either way, the music gets the exposure it very much deserves. 

Edited November 10, 2014 by Russell Gilbert

[Premium Stuff]

Northern Soul had its roots in the Mod scene - Twisted Wheel and other iconic clubs.

 

Mod culture would encourage the authentic, rare and elitism ... "the original is still the greatest" 

 

In life there is real and fake   

[Bridgesoceity]

I think this whole scenario is another great example of the schism that exists on "the scene" today - and I don't believe there's any going back.

 

There's the "rare soul scene" and the "nostalgia Northern scene". One continues the traditions of the original Northern scene - the search for rare vinyl, the desire to play originals only - while the other is simply about reliving those great days all over again. The people attending the nostalgia scene very probably don't give a toss whether something's played on original vinyl or not. All they're interested in is having a dance to their favourite Northern sounds.

 

I think it's time that people on the other scene, ie, the majority of people who frequent Soul Source, just accepted this reality; that there are two scenes with different needs and values in respect to how they hear those great tunes and what they want by way of entertainment.

 

Either way, the music gets the exposure it very much deserves. 

All the above

[Dave Rimmer]

It's simple, if you don't put any bootlegs / reissues in your DJ box, you can't play any when you DJ.

[Mark Howell]

What Dave says above. People work bloody hard to find and buy originals, be they £10 or £4k. I know it's a labour of love but still.

A massive weekender at £39 ticket surely demands ovo, or it may as well be £2 in and don't moan when the landlord plays off a laptop?

[Winsford Soul]

It's simple, if you don't put any bootlegs / reissues in your DJ box, you can't play any when you DJ.

Well said that man.

Steve

[Pete S]

What Dave says above. People work bloody hard to find and buy originals, be they £10 or £4k. I know it's a labour of love but still.

A massive weekender at £39 ticket surely demands ovo, or it may as well be £2 in and don't moan when the landlord plays off a laptop?

 

Whats the demographic of the people who attend it though - lots of people from where I live went, none of them gave a toss what was even played, let alone what it was played off, they go for a drink and a dance and a laugh.

So for the 5% who are outraged - the other 95% don't care.

[Mark Howell]

Fair point well made.

 

I am glad to be in the 5% though not outraged, just that I like crackly old vinyl and written on, well loved labels and sleeves.

 

I'm just glad that others do too, and I'm glad I can enjoy it with like minded souls.

[Winsford Soul]

I was brought up with the belief that only original vinyl was /had to be played at nighters and after running very successful nighters at winsford. I still hold that to be true. Don't see any reason for them to be any different now after all these years.

Steve

[jocko]

Surely the argument should be about why are  big chunks of the scene now obsessed with playing Tomangoes, Lou Pride, Eddie Parker etc etc as mainstay records, and at every gig,  while certain DJ's with lots of records that need recognition stay at home knitting.

 

The OVO argument should now actually be irrelevant to the debate on why the progressive scene seems to be dying on its arse, as viewed from my armchair obviously. If you are too busy arguing about format rather than quality of sound, and surprise of hearing it, you are nowhere near any sort of progressive scene, not even sure what to call it now!

 

Thats not denying the quality of these records, or the impact they can have when used creatively, such as  a certain Sunday afternoon in Bamberg, but many DJ's seem to be now chasing these originals to play as mainstay records. Why?

 

The best example of this is the Marvin/Tammi Ain't No Mountain High Enough, a joyous song that I would never really expect to hear out, Mick Smith drops it late in a 100 club, tired and emotional it was just so right and so perfect timing, but then every soul night "progressive" dj is chasing it for a floor saver, and wants list are appearing everywhere, rather than looking for another similar record that could fit the bill with the surprise factor, It didn't and Marvin and Tammi became a floor packer the country over, at allegedly somethign different soul nights, with the sound of Baaing replacing any end of record applause.

 

Not sure its for me as a nighter but Burnley seems to have the perfect mix of this, cheap and dear, but different records. Obviously any nighter its difficult to complete with Lifeline, especially if Butch would walk the 50 yards to the venue, but it doesn'nt mean you give up trying surely.

 

Its doomed, and I have said it before, lots of the people arguing for OVO don't actually get it any more than those who argue against it.

Edited November 12, 2014 by jocko

[tosspot]

Surely the argument should be about why are  big chunks of the scene now obsessed with playing Tomangoes, Lou Pride, Eddie Parker etc etc as mainstay records, and at every gig,  while certain DJ's with lots of records that need recognition stay at home knitting.

 

The OVO argument should now actually be irrelevant to the debate on why the progressive scene seems to be dying on its arse, as viewed from my armchair obviously. If you are too busy arguing about format rather than quality of sound, and surprise of hearing it, you are nowhere near any sort of progressive scene, not even sure what to call it now!

 

Thats not denying the quality of these records, or the impact they can have when used creatively, such as  a certain Sunday afternoon in Bamberg, but many DJ's seem to be now chasing these originals to play as mainstay records. Why?

 

The best example of this is the Marvin/Tammi Ain't No Mountain High Enough, a joyous song that I would never really expect to hear out, Mick Smith drops it late in a 100 club, tired and emotional it was just so right and so perfect timing, but then every soul night "progressive" dj is chasing it for a floor saver, and wants list are appearing everywhere, rather than looking for another similar record that could fit the bill with the surprise factor, It didn't and Marvin and Tammi became a floor packer the country over, at allegedly somethign different soul nights, with the sound of Baaing replacing any end of record applause.

 

Not sure its for me as a nighter but Burnley seems to have the perfect mix of this, cheap and dear, but different records. Obviously any nighter its difficult to complete with Lifeline, especially if Butch would walk the 50 yards to the venue, but it doesn'nt mean you give up trying surely.

 

Its doomed, and I have said it before, lots of the people arguing for OVO don't actually get it any more than those who argue against it.

Bravo, that's why we set Pure soul up in a small venue cos we know it'll never be packed to the rafters, however we do get a small hard core following, grumpy soul looks the real deal too

[Ian Dewhirst]

Surely the argument should be about why are  big chunks of the scene now obsessed with playing Tomangoes, Lou Pride, Eddie Parker etc etc as mainstay records, and at every gig,  while certain DJ's with lots of records that need recognition stay at home knitting.

 

If I had originals of the Tomangoes, Lou Pride and Eddie Parker I certainly wouldn't be playing 'em week in, week out. They'll get trashed quickly and that's £12K down the drain. 

 

I was witness to a dealer quotation on a DJs collection a few years back and there was a 60% difference in the dealers valuation and what the DJ thought they were worth. It all boiled down to condition. The depreciation on the originals is huge the more they get played. It must be a sobering thought to pay £8K for an Eddie Parker and 2 years down the line find it's only worth £3K 'cos it's trashed. Good luck to anyone playing expensive OVO. Deffo a rich man's sport.

 

Ian D 

[Soulhawk]

if your records are getting trashed from being played out you must be doing something wrong

 

[Ian Dewhirst]

if your records are getting trashed from being played out you must be doing something wrong

 

 

Believe me, the records will get trashed if you play 'em on multiple different decks over 2 years, even if you take extreme care. Even more so if they're styrene!

 

Ian 

[Markw]

I think what Soulhawk means is that if you are having to play sets constantly using those same tired, hackneyed records and physically wearing them out, then you are not doing your job properly as a Rare Soul/Northern Soul DJ.

 

I think his point is that you are a pretty unimaginative, predictable  and shit DJ   if that's all you can offer - a few same old, same old bits, played over and over ad nauseum (at least that's my interpretation).

 

I don't think he is referring to care using the decks etc, though I stand to be corrected............on my interpretation of Soulhawk's post mind, not my sentiments about playing the same old, sa.....................        ........  oh! Eddie Parker? Again??!!...............................excuse me while I..........       

Edited November 12, 2014 by markw

[Ian Dewhirst]

I think what Soulhawk means is that if you are having to play sets constantly using those same tired, hackneyed records and physically wearing them out, then you are not doing your job properly as a Rare Soul/Northern Soul DJ.

 

I think his point is that you are a pretty unimaginative, predictable  and shit DJ   if that's all you can offer - a few same old, same old bits, played over and over ad nauseum (at least that's my interpretation).

 

I don't think he is referring to care using the decks etc, though I stand to be corrected............on my interpretation of Soulhawk's post mind, not my sentiments about playing the same old, sa.....................        ........  oh! Eddie Parker? Again??!!...............................excuse me while I..........       

 

Gotcha. Although I wouldn't have thought there were enough copies of "I'm Gone" on OVO for it to be a hammered oldie......? Maybe there's more than I thought but at £8K a pop it's an expensive oldie ay?

 

Ian D 

[Markw]

Errrrr.............Ian, you better believe it mate.  Every man and his dog currently occupying the so-called top jock slots seem to have this and take every opportunity going to let us know that they have it, amongst others in their armoury of repetitiveness and tedium...........Salvadors, Lou Pride, Del Larks etc etc etc..........  

[Chalky]

Errrrr.............Ian, you better believe it mate.  Every man and his dog currently occupying the so-called top jock slots seem to have this and take every opportunity going to let us know that they have it, amongst others in their armoury of repetitiveness and tedium...........Salvadors, Lou Pride, Del Larks etc etc etc..........  

 

 tes it is surprising just how many of the so called big money rarities there are out there, some you seem to hear everywhere.  

 

And check your messages Ian D 

[Steve G]

It must be a sobering thought to pay £8K for an Eddie Parker and 2 years down the line find it's only worth £3K 'cos it's trashed. Good luck to anyone playing expensive OVO. 

 

Ian D 

Not sure about this Ian - these days some idiot will probably pay £8k for the trashed copy….just to help them in their quest to be "one of the big boys"...

[Goldsoul]

Maybe we can draw a line under folks buying expensive records to somehow become 'big DJs'.

Simply not going to happen.

I get at least 2 a week telling me how they should be on the rosta at Stoke, Blackpool and other prestigious events.

The advice I give is to save your money or enjoy the purchases at home.

The scene is well covered by competent, professional DJs, many without Eddie Parker - I'm Gone.

[Goldsoul]

Maybe we can draw a line under folks buying expensive records to somehow become 'big DJs'.

Simply not going to happen.

I get at least 2 a week telling me how they should be on the rosta at Stoke, Blackpool and other prestigious events.

The advice I give is to save your money or enjoy the purchases at home.

The scene is well covered by competent, professional DJs, many without Eddie Parker - I'm Gone.

[Keeper]

Maybe we can draw a line under folks buying expensive records to somehow become 'big DJs'.

Simply not going to happen.

I get at least 2 a week telling me how they should be on the rosta at Stoke, Blackpool and other prestigious events.

The advice I give is to save your money or enjoy the purchases at home.

The scene is well covered by competent, professional DJs, many without Eddie Parker - I'm Gone.

I've got a load of crap ones .....can i have a go !!!

[Bazza]

Whats the demographic of the people who attend it though - lots of people from where I live went, none of them gave a toss what was even played, let alone what it was played off, they go for a drink and a dance and a laugh.

So for the 5% who are outraged - the other 95% don't care.

I keep jumping fences ovo or not ovo ,I'm gradually coming to the conclusion ,I really don't give a toss anymore ,recent events in my life have shown me there is more to life than wondering what label etc a tune is on ,I want to hear tunes like the ones below

classics 

Nomads

Eddie daye

a couple of the Magnetics

and many more ,I'm a punter a dancer ,I want to go out and hear great tunes and yes have a laugh ,and that is whats important to me now 

you lot can like it or lump it ,I'm not bothered 

 

 

Bazza  

Edited November 13, 2014 by Bazza

[Bridgesoceity]

There is nothing prestigious about charging punters good money to have a monkey behind the decks playing look-a-likes.

[Goldsoul]

Not quite with Romulus..... Any one you are being derogatory about ? Let us know and we'll pass it on to them.

[Bridgesoceity]

Dj's playing reissues at Blackpool weekender with cameras on the decks.

Can you state for everyone on here that Blackpool is NOT an OVO event?.

Do you have a policy on this because the flyers and adverts are not clear?. I'm sure you can clear this up with a simple 'Yes' Original vinyl only', or "No, it's not a requirement from me for DJ's to play original , reissues are acceptable"?

[Goldsoul]

It's pretty much OVO as most of the Goldsoul team have formidable collections. There are a couple of warmer uppers who happen to be fairly good DJs where we let it slide. It's not always that easy to have a mega venue like the Tower and have an endless stream of excellent DJs with OVO. The venue is like no other in my opinion.

Edited November 12, 2014 by The Golden 101

[Peter Richer]

I think what Soulhawk means is that if you are having to play sets constantly using those same tired, hackneyed records and physically wearing them out, then you are not doing your job properly as a Rare Soul/Northern Soul DJ.

 

I think his point is that you are a pretty unimaginative, predictable  and shit DJ   if that's all you can offer - a few same old, same old bits, played over and over ad nauseum (at least that's my interpretation).

 

I don't think he is referring to care using the decks etc, though I stand to be corrected............on my interpretation of Soulhawk's post mind, not my sentiments about playing the same old, sa.....................        ........  oh! Eddie Parker? Again??!!...............................excuse me while I..........     

 

 

Gotcha. Although I wouldn't have thought there were enough copies of "I'm Gone" on OVO for it to be a hammered oldie......? Maybe there's more than I thought but at £8K a pop it's an expensive oldie ay?

 

Ian D 

 

 

 tes it is surprising just how many of the so called big money rarities there are out there, some you seem to hear everywhere.  

 

And check your messages Ian D 

 

 

Guys, there is another difficulty here which perhaps is being overlooked. And that is, that when an audience learn that you (as a DJ) have certain 'big ticket' items they expect you to play them. More than that - and let's not forget they are the paying attendees - they come up and ask for you to play them (to make sure you don't 'forget'), often several requests for those same records.

 

This used to happen to me a lot (when I still had a few big records, and on the odd occasion I was asked to DJ) - examples being the Prophets/Cairos/Eddie Daye on Shrine, Gwen Owens, Del Larks, Brand New Faces, Al Williams to name a few - and now happens even more to one of my best mates (who gets asked to DJ a lot) who has copies of Eddie Parker, Tomangoe's, Salvadors, Bernie Williams, Sandi Sheldon and many others.

 

OK, this is mainly the 'up-market' soul nights, rather than all-nighters where the new and surprising are expected, but it does kind of limit the amount of interesting variation which can be aired. It also sometimes depresses the DJ who wants the receptive space to play some of the other fantastic tunes in their box; plus, it can short change those paying punters who are more listeners than dancers and who have their own expectations for an evening out of good music.

 

It is a balancing act (which I guess is part of the DJing art), and in a 25 record one hour set if you manage to play five or more records which delight each of several different factions in the audience, in an order which flows with some aesthetic and emotional appeal, then the job has probably been done well.

[Bridgesoceity]

I have no problem with dj's playing just oldies if that's what the venue is known for, there is no need to play a reissue of any record, if you ain't got it, tough, get on a bus and hear someone who has.

playing a ten quid original record has more prestige than playing a reissue, anywhere

[Bridgesoceity]

A fairly good DJ who 'slides' and plays a few reissues is a fairly poor DJ from the off

[Goldsoul]

The public disagree Mr Romulus. My personal feelings are OVO. That's what I play and most of the seasoned Goldsoul DJs are the same.

Some jocks are popular though even with reissues.

Fact of life I'm afraid.

Big events demand DJs who can deliver and are popular with large crowds albeit even with the odd reissue. Hard to take im sure for some of you but it's reality.

[Bridgesoceity]

if the crowds through the door is the priority over the nights musical and dj's ethics then fair enough to you, if that's how you see the Northern soul scene in 2014, each to their own,. It doesn't resemble the scene I got into.

[Pete S]

In the 70's, when a record was massive, there were only say 10 top dj's, one or two would have the original and the others would have emidiscs cut off those two originals - and play them at Wigan, Blackpool, Cleethorpes with pride!  I've literally sat on the decks with Keith Minshull once at Wigan and he played EMI after EMI, Tough Girl etc.

[Cover-up]

And on and on and on it goes....

 

Once a record has been booted - that's it. Game over. Anyone can play it, everyone knows it. Play it if you like, but really... if you're buying an original AFTER it's been booted, then all you're doing is showing off how much more money you have than "Billy Bootleg". You don't have better taste, you don't have more skills, you don't know how to make a set flow - ALL you have is MORE MONEY. Who cares? And if you're worried about the warm-up guy playing all your "big tunes", then you should have a better playbox...

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again - people get hung up on OVO. Maybe the definition of the word "original" needs looked at - maybe ORIGINAL shouldn't mean "rare historic artefact" but should mean ORIGINAL as in something fresh, something different, something new? "Oh, I can't believe blah blah played xxxxxxx - how original!"

[Petebangor]

if the crowds through the door is the priority over the nights musical and dj's ethics then fair enough to you, if that's how you see the Northern soul scene in 2014, each to their own,. It doesn't resemble the scene I got into.

 

Why don't you ask the crowds through the door, if in anyway, the enjoyment of the night was diminished, because a DJ played The Tomangoes off an RCA acetate?  The vast majority of the people attending the Tower, don't give a flying f*ck what format it's played on, they go to dance and enjoy themselves. 

[Mellorful]

The public disagree Mr Romulus. My personal feelings are OVO. That's what I play and most of the seasoned Goldsoul DJs are the same.

Some jocks are popular though even with reissues.

Fact of life I'm afraid.

Big events demand DJs who can deliver and are popular with large crowds albeit even with the odd reissue. Hard to take im sure for some of you but it's reality.

Spot on Kev.

I take the missus out dancing every Friday, Saturday and attend several weekenders, always with a preference for DJ's playing to the dance floor and not their ego's. The wife isn't interested in OVO politics and I suspect most attendees of the big events are similarly minded. 

OVO as a preference but legit British is acceptable when it comes to keeping the dance floor going.

Also agree with Ian D that there are only so many spins in a styrene disc and a couple of years repeated play and they will become shagged out.

[macca]

Don't think we've ever discussed this topic before, have we? 

[Markw]

Guys, there is another difficulty here which perhaps is being overlooked. And that is, that when an audience learn that you (as a DJ) have certain 'big ticket' items they expect you to play them. More than that - and let's not forget they are the paying attendees - they come up and ask for you to play them (to make sure you don't 'forget'), often several requests for those same records.

 

This used to happen to me a lot (when I still had a few big records, and on the odd occasion I was asked to DJ) - examples being the Prophets/Cairos/Eddie Daye on Shrine, Gwen Owens, Del Larks, Brand New Faces, Al Williams to name a few - and now happens even more to one of my best mates (who gets asked to DJ a lot) who has copies of Eddie Parker, Tomangoe's, Salvadors, Bernie Williams, Sandi Sheldon and many others.

 

OK, this is mainly the 'up-market' soul nights, rather than all-nighters where the new and surprising are expected, but it does kind of limit the amount of interesting variation which can be aired. It also sometimes depresses the DJ who wants the receptive space to play some of the other fantastic tunes in their box; plus, it can short change those paying punters who are more listeners than dancers and who have their own expectations for an evening out of good music.

 

It is a balancing act (which I guess is part of the DJing art), and in a 25 record one hour set if you manage to play five or more records which delight each of several different factions in the audience, in an order which flows with some aesthetic and emotional appeal, then the job has probably been done well.

So, if you didn't want to play those records to those people, why did you pack them in your DJ box?

[Mal C]

Don't think we've ever discussed this topic before, have we?

 

Nope, and we may never again if this disillusioned soul fan is allowed to destroy the OVO rule book... where's the Re-Issue police when you need em??

 

all this over a Tomato's Acetate...

Edited November 13, 2014 by Mal C

[Rich B]

Don't think we've ever discussed this topic before, have we? 

 

I'm with Macca, it's not a very original topic for a thread is it?

[Bridgesoceity]

You're right is not an original topic, it's a reissue topic