Tomangoes Acetate ?

[Dobber]

a dj played the tomangoes in the ballroom of the blackpool tower last nite(saturday)and as you know you can see the 45's being spun,anyway im sure the tomangoes was on a rca acetate...is this a genuine thing,do we anything about it?

[Pete S]

a dj played the tomangoes in the ballroom of the blackpool tower last nite(saturday)and as you know you can see the 45's being spun,anyway im sure the tomangoes was on a rca acetate...is this a genuine thing,do we anything about it?

 

That's the Grapevine release - an acetate of the Grapevine release I mean

[Dobber]

That's the Grapevine release - an acetate of the Grapevine release I mean

thanks pete...so its a 70's thing?

[Pete S]

thanks pete...so its a 70's thing?

 

Yes, 1977

[Chalky]

[Lionelonthevinyl]

Ok......so is this fine to play at at the Blackpool weekend? Or should it be on the washpan label at such a prestigious event? Don't want to cause trouble, just wondering....thank you...Rob

[Premium Stuff]

Ok......so is this fine to play at at the Blackpool weekend? Or should it be on the washpan label at such a prestigious event? Don't want to cause trouble, just wondering....thank you...Rob

 

I agree Rob - think playing a Grapevine whether acetate or not is "cheating" 

 

Saw a playlist somewhere recently for another niter - think it was Kings Hall Stoke - and someone said they had played Dena barnes ... on Grapevine.

 

Tut, tut   

 

That will bring out the NOVO brigade - not original vinyl only 

 

Richard

[Bridgesoceity]

DJ's played out-a-sites,disco demands and other boots at Blackpool this weekend for all to see on video so nowt prestigious really!?

[Guest]

I suppose it depends which DJ you are  

[Lionelonthevinyl]

DJ's played out-a-sites,disco demands and other boots at Blackpool this weekend for all to see on video so nowt prestigious really!?

I wasn't meaning to be contentious with my post, but surprised with some records not being played on there original labels....to be fair though, the guys playing at Blackpool have broke most records that are on the scene, so perhaps they can be forgiven......Rob

[Bridgesoceity]

You are joking?...aren't you?

[Billywhizz]

I agree Rob - think playing a Grapevine whether acetate or not is "cheating" 

 

Saw a playlist somewhere recently for another niter - think it was Kings Hall Stoke - and someone said they had played Dena barnes ... on Grapevine.

 

Tut, tut   

 

That will bring out the NOVO brigade - not original vinyl only 

 

Richard

Richard ,i play betty boo boo , on Grapevine, only one off , i take thats okkkk  billy

[Lionelonthevinyl]

You are joking?...aren't you?

Not at all...Mr searling, Mr evison and Mr roberts would of played the majority of the records, on the original labels, that get played out at Blackpool....again, not falling out with anyone....thank you....Rob

[Bridgesoceity]

I meant Joking as in you think it's ok for the dj's to play boots, re issues?

[Bridgesoceity]

a dj played the tomangoes in the ballroom of the blackpool tower last nite(saturday)and as you know you can see the 45's being spun,anyway im sure the tomangoes was on a rca acetate...is this a genuine thing,do we anything about it?

Which DJ?

[Lionelonthevinyl]

I meant Joking as in you think it's ok for the dj's to play boots, re issues?

Sorry mate.....miss read!....its def a no from me, same as you!....Rob

[Bridgesoceity]

Then again, Blackpool & Kings Hall are not rare soul events so it doesn't really matter I suppose?

[Billywhizz]

Which DJ?

it doesnt really matter, there all top quality dj's and the venue its self does not quote OVOS, i hope that helps billy

[Lionelonthevinyl]

Then again, Blackpool & Kings Hall are not rare soul events so it doesn't really matter I suppose?

I agree totally Mr Romulus...it doesn't one bit..go where you want, enjoy it....don't be political... if you pick the wrong do, don't moan, just research before you go....Rob

Edited November 9, 2014 by Lionelonthevinyl

[Guest]

Then again, Blackpool & Kings Hall are not rare soul events so it doesn't really matter I suppose?

Unless you weren`t in the top 3rd of the DJ roster. I can assure you then it would matter!

Edited November 9, 2014 by Guest

[Premium Stuff]

Richard ,i play betty boo boo , on Grapevine, only one off , i take thats okkkk  billy

 

That was the original legit release of a previously unissued track, so it's OK in my book - although I would play something else instead if it were me 

[Bridgesoceity]

it doesnt really matter, there all top quality dj's and the venue its self does not quote OVOS, i hope that helps billy

[Bridgesoceity]

Depends what qualify as Top dj's?

[John A]

Depends what qualify as Top dj's?

Anyone with a Tomangoes acetate 

[Bridgesoceity]

Not a good example to set to all the young people that attend is it really?

They will just think it's the norm.

[Rich B]

Richard S recently mentioned on his Solar radio show, playing an 'acetate', supplied by a Los Angeles record dealer, of the 'Bob Wilson Sounds - Strings a go-go' at the Casino in 1974.

 

Would that have been alright?

[Markw]

At the time, yes. Because there was not the digital/internet access to the sounds and carver swapping was just about the only way for DJs back then to get a newly-discovered sound out there beyond the one/two who did have an original. Different era, different priorities - records turned over much more quickly then too. Bootlegs/reissues for general resale had never been acceptable - as soon as a 45 was pressed/reissued back then, it was dropped by top DJs and venues like a dog turd.

[Bridgesoceity]

Well put Mark, looks like these DJ's at these karaoke events are happy to handle dodgey turds!  

[Mellorful]

Is Grapevine a legit UK label?

Was Grapevine the 1st UK issue of the track?

Has the artist and copyright holder been paid appropriately their royalties?

If the answer to the above 3 questions is yes, then IMHO spinning em at any event is okay as 1st British issue, same goes for Jay Boy releases etc. I think back to Prestatyn for the last couple of years when Nige and Sean were double decking and spinning British demo's; their sets have proved bloody good entertainment.  

The opinions on acceptable records playable is akin to discussing backsides, we all have one but the shape and size may differ.  

[Bridgesoceity]

Del Larks on Goldmine or Queen City?

I know what is more appropriate at a rare soul event

[Markw]

Is Grapevine a legit UK label?

Was Grapevine the 1st UK issue of the track?

Has the artist and copyright holder been paid appropriately their royalties?

If the answer to the above 3 questions is yes, then IMHO spinning em at any event is okay as 1st British issue, same goes for Jay Boy releases etc.

Nonsense.

[Mellorful]

Del Larks on Goldmine or Queen City?

I know what is more appropriate at a rare soul event

Job Opening - Legit British demo of Del Larks and its not Goldmine label, think Soultown Andy has a copy. 

[MotownDave]

a british copy released at the same time , or near as damn it is probably ok one made 15--20--30 years later is not , its not rocket science

[Markw]

Job Opening - Legit British demo of Del Larks and its not Goldmine label, think Soultown Andy has a copy. 

This is getting surreal now...................

[John A]

a british copy released at the same time , or near as damn it is probably ok one made 15--20--30 years later is not , its not rocket science

Exactly. Every grapevine release was made for the northern scene which perversely makes them unplayable. But that's the thing, the whole scene was/is built around records not made for it.

[Mellorful]

Nonsense.

I checked with UK record collectors guide and Tamangoes was definitely a legitimate release but then withdrawn.

Is your objection because the British costs £50 and US costs £4K you feel the UK release is unworthy? For me, once its legimately released its not the cost but what's in the groove that counts; Tomangoes/Tamangoes the same tune on a different label.

a british copy released at the same time , or near as damn it is probably ok one made 15--20--30 years later is not , its not rocket science

You may have confused the word 'acceptable' and taken it to mean 'preferable' so I will simplify the meaning for you.

When coming home from the pub I may get a hackney cab (acceptable) though I would like a chauffer driven Rolls Royce with mini bar (preferable). How many NS events are of wedding status requiring a RR (I suggest few & far between - hence the hackney cab is acceptable).

Applying your timeline and analogy to a marital theme; are you suggesting when we get married its not proper or legit until you have reached the silver wedding and even then must have served 20 years more than the neighbour to be worthy of recognition or celebration...... oh almost forgot, and where you got married....

 

I now invite you to consider records reissued by Ady C on the Kent Label, these may be played by Ady at 100 Club, that strikes me as reasonable, acceptable and given the venue - preferable.

My philosophy is simple, is it a lawful release, is it a 1st issue from US, UK, Canada etc and finally have royalties been paid - those elements being satisfied spinning the record is okay with me.

As I said originally - opinions are like backsides we all have one but size and shape may differ.

I will now rest my ugly rear and hope the soul police don't arrest me for being a liberal antagonist, Wishing you a good evening.  

[Markw]

(1) Price/value has nothing to do with any of this at all as far as I'm concerned - I couldn't care less whether a record costs £10 or £10,000

 

(2) None of this has anything to do with the legitimacy of the release - Motown Dave articulated the merits or otherwise of contemporaneous or near contemporaneous UK releases in one line above - and that is the key to authenticity; was the UK (or other country) release contemporaneous with the US release or was it prompted significantly later by exposure to the Northern scene? Former = OVO; latter = non-OVO

Edited November 10, 2014 by markw

[Pete S]

Job Opening - Legit British demo of Del Larks and its not Goldmine label, think Soultown Andy has a copy. 

 

Those 'British demos" of the Del Larks etc are bootlegs as far as I know.  The green and white ones?

[Pete S]

Playing the Grapevine / RCA acetates: don't forget that when JM auctioned these, some went for over £500!  No wonder people want to play them out / show them off.  I personally think they're just showing they've got more money than sense, I'd rate them at £50 apiece.

[Guest miff]

Those 'British demos" of the Del Larks etc are bootlegs as far as I know.  The green and white ones?

Ive got a test press of the Del larks, thats not a boot is it

[Guest miff]

Thats The UK not a queen city

[Pete S]

Ive got a test press of the Del larks, thats not a boot is it

 

Test press of the Goldmine version?

[Guest Mr Ms DJ]

Job Opening - Legit British demo of Del Larks and its not Goldmine label, think Soultown Andy has a copy. 

Stuart, i think youll find out that when andy plays the del larks its on queen city .

[maslar]

Playing the Grapevine / RCA acetates: don't forget that when JM auctioned these, some went for over £500!  No wonder people want to play them out / show them off.  I personally think they're just showing they've got more money than sense, I'd rate them at £50 apiece.

 

Wasn't the Tomangoes withdrawn because of bad sound quality? If that's so what does the acetate sound like? There's no reason it should sound particularly bad I know.  Also, of course each time an acetate is played its shelf life is reduced significantly.

 

 I remember Eddie Parker "I'm Gone" being played numerous times throughout the night  at the Wigan Oldies nights in 1981. Presumably these were RCA acetates too?

Edited November 10, 2014 by maslar

[Pete S]

Wasn't the Tomangoes withdrawn because of bad sound quality? If that's so what does the acetate sound like? There's no reason it should sound particularly bad I know.  Also, of course each time an acetate is played its shelf life is reduced significantly.

 

 I remember Eddie Parker "I'm Gone" being played numerous times throughout the night  at the Wigan Oldies nights in 1981. Presumably these were RCA acetates too?

 

The sound is bad ion the intro, dubbed off a very crackly 45, no need really as they could have dubbed it off a mint bootleg!

(Before I forget, you know what you said about Russ playing Spencer davis in the big room and I said you are correct - well you were, but when I checked the tape, Russ is actually standing in for Dave Evison and doing his oldies spot - hence him playing SD)

[maslar]

The sound is bad ion the intro, dubbed off a very crackly 45, no need really as they could have dubbed it off a mint bootleg!

(Before I forget, you know what you said about Russ playing Spencer davis in the big room and I said you are correct - well you were, but when I checked the tape, Russ is actually standing in for Dave Evison and doing his oldies spot - hence him playing SD)

 

Yes but  I didn't know it was RW till you said. All i remember is that it was later on in the night because I  had trouble getting in and waited outside for what seemed  like an eternity.  It's a pretty vague memory tbh. That would explain RW playing it later though. Wasn't DE there at all? I seem to recall him there at the end? Must have got two nights mixed up. .

 

sorry going off topic.

[maslar]

The sound is bad ion the intro, dubbed off a very crackly 45, no need really as they could have dubbed it off a mint bootleg!

(Before I forget, you know what you said about Russ playing Spencer davis in the big room and I said you are correct - well you were, but when I checked the tape, Russ is actually standing in for Dave Evison and doing his oldies spot - hence him playing SD)

 

I agree with what you say about the value of these acetates. For an acetate to be of significance there really has to be some historic significance (usually association or possession with or by the artist or production team.

 

An acetate used for  a reissue, taken of from an original  record released over ten years previously  is largely meaningless. Anyone could produce one.   if you're going to play such an acetate you might as well play the Grapevine release.  It  doesn't have any greater validity in terms of originality.

[Guest miff]

Test press of the Goldmine version?

Yes thats the one Edited November 10, 2014 by miff

[Wiggyflat]

"it's whats's in the grooves that counts".Often said by two bit bootleg Bob.You have to have some rules.The days of dropping a booted record are gone so the playing of originals has taken over.If there wasn't that rule you would have every Tom,Dick and Bob deejaying.Nights would be springing up everywhere playing the records that Bob,Dick and Harry would love to have played in 75.Come on all of this original lark is too hard.You play by my rules as they are curently being rewritten? Any news on who won the northern soul awards? Basically if you want to be in the gang and you sold up then Im sorry the gang won't accept you with your booty tat.The only way in would be to put your own doo on.Bootleg Bob don't come on here looking for acceptance...you either have The Tomangoes or you dont.Stick another record on and leave The Tomangoes to someone that has it.No amount of soul Police,snobs...but but but it's on Grapevine...will change it.

Edited November 10, 2014 by wiggyflat

[Guest Garry Huxley]

looks like OVO wins again