Barbara & The Castles

[Bazza]

Only heard this the other day ,I don't remember hearing it before,fantastic tune how did I miss it

what do you lot think ?

 

Bazza 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTjy0j_cGs8

[Carty]

Yes i love that  as well , first heard it on a goldmine cd(northern soul satisfaction?) in the early nineties , so superior to the Vicky Nelson  version in my opinion .  no idea what its worth .

[Bazza]

Yes i love that  as well , first heard it on a goldmine cd(northern soul satisfaction?) in the early nineties , so superior to the Vicky Nelson  version in my opinion .  no idea what its worth .

Mary love did a version as well,not a patch on this one tho

Popsike have 2 prices £60.00 and £160.00

 

great tune

 

Bazza     

[Carty]

So, about forty quid then ?

[Carty]

Actually looks like its worth round about £150 -£200 based on a few previous sales ads on here

Edited September 18, 2014 by carty

[Davenpete]

That SERIOUSLY sounds like a Holloway singing - can't decide if it's Brenda or Patrice.

Dx

 

PS Defo recorded at Hollywood and Vine though (as ALL BH's stuff was).

Edited September 18, 2014 by DaveNPete

[Guest]

Yes i love that  as well , first heard it on a goldmine cd(northern soul satisfaction?) in the early nineties , so superior to the Vicky Nelson  version in my opinion .  no idea what its worth .

I prefer the Vicki Nelson version out of the three versions I know.

 

  It's the best to dance to as it's slightly faster than Barbara/Castles.

 

  I think the VickI Nelson original is rarer nowadays! (vinyl, not styrene boot). Quite a few Ruby Doo's turned up in the past decade.

 

I still like Barbara and the Castles as well, then Mary Love's. 

Edited September 18, 2014 by Guest

[Chalky]

other side is good if I remember rightly, deepish soul?

[Bazza]

The other two Versions don't compare to this in my opinion ,this is raw ,the others seem a little elevator muzak to me ,each to there own tho ,not heard this out ,bet it sounds great on a good system

 

Bazza     

[Triode]

I have owned this a couple of times and never realised the vocal similarity to Patrice Holloway ?

could well be something that left Jobete's west coast set up via the back door like many others......

[Robbk]

That's DEFINITELY NOT Brenda Holloway, and I really doubt that is Patrice.  This singer (Barbara) has a deeper voice than Patrice.  Maybe she was Barbara Wilson (Frank Wilson's wife, who sang the demo of "Evert Little Bit Hurts" for Brenda).  It was produced by Chester Pipkin, and was a Jobete song, so I assume that this was the demo version produced for Jobete, and probably used by Mary Love to prime her for her version.

[Tlscapital]

Agreed with RobbK, Barbara's cut sounds like a demo version to me. Indeed it has an edge ("rawer") of something rather unfinished. Never liked it so much. It sounds "pop" in the arrangements. Most likely to give the song an appeal to a larger crowd. Vicky (Pinky & Purky) Nelson is pure dreaded cover musically and vocally. While Mary Love's version being elevator's muzak, if so I'll swap my anorak coat for a bell boy hat right away and spend the rest of my life working in elevators going up and down. 

[Davenpete]

The boss think it sounds like Brenda too (agreed the voice is deep for Patrice) - he's a major BH fanatic. More reminiscent of her earlier Donna period vocal sound.

 

I know Brenda was doing the odd sneaky vocal foreigners under the Motown radar during her sessions at the Mirwood studios.

 

Dx

Edited September 19, 2014 by DaveNPete

[Robbk]

The boss think's it's Brenda too (agreed the voice is deep for Patrice) and there's no bigger BH fanatic than him.

 

I know Brenda was doing the odd sneaky vocal foreigners under the Motown radar during her sessions at the Mirwood studios.

 

Dx

To me, her voice tone doesn't sound like Brenda's.  Everyone has a unique sound quality that is always in his or her voice, no matter how one tries to disguise it, or moves through the range of keys and notes.  I don't hear Brenda's identifying sound in this voice.  This song is just being sung in a style that Brenda used.  It isn't close enough to even be recognisable as a Holloway.

[Tlscapital]

Mary Love's 'hey stoney face' b/w 'gotta get you back' and her first first 45 'you turn my bitter into sweet' b/w 'let me know' are all Jobette publishing with 3 out of 4 Pimpkin's composition. Both issued in 1965. So Mary Love's version is first to be published anyway. 

 

The label Ruby-Doo would have been founded in 1966 by a guy called John Marascalco (founder of Cee-Jam Records, JC, Lola Records, Princess Records, Ruby-Doo Records, Sabrina Records) and featured (studio) bands that did covers...

 

Brenda started her career at Motown mid 1964 and it is established that she did sing for different outfit under a pseudo in 1966 while she was still doing fine at Motown. And in Barbara's version of 'stoney face' you do have reminders of 'when I'm gone' I find. Even though her tone us lower and less powerful than normally. So if this Brenda in 1966, it is absolutely possible as she went in the studios to sing with the Ikettes (Phi-Dan), the Belles (Mirwood) under pseudos in that time 1966.

[Hooker1951]

Sounds like Rose st John.."

[Bazza]

I've been listening to a few of Brenda's tunes ,still don't know ,who ever she is ,she has a great voice ,surely a talent such as this didn't make just the one record and disappear 

 

Bazza  

[Carty]

Very rarely can i identify artists like  those of you above ,   i do get a feel for a tune but its for the overall finished product ,It has to be exceptionally distinctive for me to be able to pick them out ,( maybe Esther Phillips )  One voice that is really hitting the spot for me recently is that of Inez Foxx,    Back to the topic , for me the Barbara anDthe castles version is superior vocally , it is a far fuller orchestration and the backing singers ( the castles ) are far more distinctive in  a perfect 60s girlie northern way , thus making it for me,  the pick of the bunch.    

[Steve G]

Got mine 1990 from Pat Brady...

[Bazza]

Got mine 1990 from Pat Brady...

I would love to hear it out Steve ,its such a big sound

 

Bazza  

 

ps .just hearing the intro would give me the shivers 

Edited September 19, 2014 by Bazza

[Steve G]

I would love to hear it out Steve ,its such a big sound

 

Bazza  

 

ps .just hearing the intro would give me the shivers 

 

hi Bazza, never thought of it as a niter sound, but I am on quite late tomorrow so might just put it in the box….Steve

[Bazza]

hi Bazza, never thought of it as a niter sound, but I am on quite late tomorrow so might just put it in the box….Steve

Put in in your play box Steve ,it needs playing ,where are you tomorrow ,I would travel to hear this out 

 

Bazza 

[NUFCSOUL]

I've played it out at Beatin Rhythm Newcastle but confined it to one of my early slots while the place busied up - might try it

on the later one sometime.

Crackin tune methinks !!

Oh and interesting info on the identity etc so thanks for input and insight folks.

[Quinvy]

Karl Heard used to play it quite a lot.

[Steve G]

Put in in your play box Steve ,it needs playing ,where are you tomorrow ,I would travel to hear this out 

 

Bazza 

Skeg Bazza, if I get asked for it I'll play it.

[Robbk]

I really doubt that Barbara and The castles was recorded in 1966.  I think it was the demo, recorded by Chester Pipkin, to present to Motown, and to use to market the song to outside producers, especially if Motown didn't choose to record it by one of their contract artists.  I still think it may be Barbara Wilson.

 

John Marascalco was a prominent L.A. R&B/Doo Wop producer from the mid 1950s through the 1960s.  He was also a songwriter/producer connected to Jobete Music's L.A. Office staff, as he worked for Hal Davis' writing-producing group (Finesse Music), which published all their songs not bought by Jobete Music.  He was regularly conected with The Pipkin Brothers (Chester and Gary).  So, it was no random occurrence that Chester Pipkin took his production (Barbara and The Castles, to a label run by Marascalco (owner and/or A&R man for many L.A. record labels.  Marascalco recorded Pat  Hunt, one of Davis and Gordon's main backup singers with L.A. Joobete, and a member of The Watesians and Brenda Holloway back-up singers for Bob Keane's and Hal Davis' productions.

 

That doesn't mean the song was recorded by them that late.  it could well have been recorded as the demo in 1965, and, after the 6-month waiting period, and Motown had not recorded it, they sold recording rights to Modern, for Mary Love.  After that, Pipkin could have thought he might do better with it using Barbara's version.

Edited September 25, 2014 by RobbK

[Robbk]

If Barbara and the Castles were actually, Brenda Holloway and The Ikettes/Mirettes, why didn't that information come out when Ady and the Ace/Kent staff did their research for "Brenda Holloway - The Early Years", and when it was learned that Brenda had fronted a group recording for A&M Records (along with Frank Wilson)?  I just don't hear this voice being Brenda.  This singer doesn't have that unique voice quality that is identifiable in every known Brenda Holloway recording.  I think her voice sounds very much more like that of Barabara (Dedmon) Wilson.  I have come to this conclusion, after listening to Wilson's "Every little Bit Hurts" and Barbara & Castles' "Stoney Face" back-to-back several times.

Edited September 20, 2014 by RobbK

[Robbk]

Were there any other L.A. Jobete-related releases on Ruby-Doo Records?  If so, which producers, songwriters and artists were involved?  I'd also like to see a discography of that label.

[Robbk]

So, no one else has been able to play this back-to-back next to Brenda and Patrice Holloway cuts?  No one can help me with the other Ruby-Doo releases?

[Robbk]

I've looked all over The Internet.  I can't find anything on Ruby-Doo Records.  Does anyone that has Steve Propes' books know if he mentioned that label?

 

Fixed!  We now have an excellent discography of the label on our "Look in your Box" subforum, on a thread thread titled "Can we put together a discography of Ruby-Doo Records?"

Edited September 25, 2014 by RobbK

[Davenpete]

Tried to call her at the weekend about something else (Pete wants to pop down and see her when shes over here in October) and was going to ask her yeh or nay but she hadn't got up yet and was at church when we called back.

Dx

[Robbk]

Tried to call her at the weekend about something else (Pete wants to pop down and see her when shes over here in October) and was going to ask her yeh or nay but she hadn't got up yet and was at church when we called back.

Dx

I'll be waiting for the answer with baited breath.  But I KNOW that can't be her.

[Robbk]

other side is good if I remember rightly, deepish soul?

Do you remember the title of the flip song, and if it was published by Jobete or Finesse Music? I'd like to get all the credits information on it, as well as all the other releases on that label.  I don't know how I missed it, as I was living in L.A. for 9 months per year during 1965-69, and working in South Los Angeles, and hitting all the Ghetto record shops and thrift and junk stores regularly.  I found all the other L.A. Jobete-related releases.

[Chalky]

Do you remember the title of the flip song, and if it was published by Jobete or Finesse Music? I'd like to get all the credits information on it, as well as all the other releases on that label.  I don't know how I missed it, as I was living in L.A. for 9 months per year during 1965-69, and working in South Los Angeles, and hitting all the Ghetto record shops and thrift and junk stores regularly.  I found all the other L.A. Jobete-related releases.

'Don't Hurt Me Baby' and I can't help you with anything else righ now.

[NUFCSOUL]

 

Found it - label and matrix details - Stoney Face presented as B side and Don't Hurt as the A side.

Both sides have the stamped H - other matrix is CJ 12 A

 

 

[Robbk]

barbara.JPG

P1020344.JPG

P1020345.JPG

 

Found it - label and matrix details - Stoney Face presented as B side and Don't Hurt as the A side.

Both sides have the stamped H - other matrix is CJ 12 A

So, The CJ matrices are the only pressing code numbers?  There are no Monarch or ALCO Delta numbers in addition?

[Dysonsoul]

So, The CJ matrices are the only pressing code numbers?  There are no Monarch or ALCO Delta numbers in addition?

 

When i get home later in the week i'll pull my copy ( the Don't Hurt Me Baby side is one of my favourite down beat sides,rather unique with female lead and male reply ) i have some more things on the label one of which is a garage style but for now i can't remember the artists. I personally  am sceptical re the Holloway connection too....

[NUFCSOUL]

That's all in the dead wax as per my scans!

[Robbk]

When I get home later in the week I'll pull my copy ( the Don't Hurt Me Baby side is one of my favourite down beat sides,rather unique with female lead and male reply ) I have some more things on the label one of which is a garage style but for now I can't remember the artists. I personally  am skeptical re the Holloway connection too....

After you return home, can you PM me an MP3 of "Don't Hurt Me Baby", so I can better tell if the singer is Barbara Wilson?

[Robbk]

When i get home later in the week i'll pull my copy ( the Don't Hurt Me Baby side is one of my favourite down beat sides,rather unique with female lead and male reply ) i have some more things on the label one of which is a garage style but for now i can't remember the artists. I personally  am sceptical re the Holloway connection too....

Was the Garage song by The Trippers?  They had 2 releases on Ruby-Doo.  Both were garage/Soul/funk mixes, and both were picked up by larger labels for national, or, at least, West Coast regional distribution ("Dance With Me" by Dot, and "Taking Care of Business" by GNP Creschendo).  I've heard those 2.  I haven't heard the 1967 and 1968 Cuts by Soul Benefit and Joint Effort.  Those may be Soul/Funk records.  I put up what I know on a discography of Ruby-Doo Records on a thread in the "Look In Your Box" SubForum.  Check it out.

[Steve G]

 

Put in in your play box Steve ,it needs playing ,where are you tomorrow ,I would travel to hear this out 

 

Bazza 

 

Confession time. I did put it in my box, but in reality it wasn't good enough to put in with the rest of my set at Skegness....there were probably 99 records ahead of it in terms of quality, so it stayed firmly put away at the back of the box.

[Bazza]

Confession time. I did put it in my box, but in reality it wasn't good enough to put in with the rest of my set at Skegness....there were probably 99 records ahead of it in terms of quality, so it stayed firmly put away at the back of the box.

Oh dear Steve   ,I would argue the bit highlighted ,I would love to hear it out ,one of the best "new to me tunes"I've come across in years 

 

Bazza  

[Dysonsoul]

Was the Garage song by The Trippers?  They had 2 releases on Ruby-Doo.  Both were garage/Soul/funk mixes, and both were picked up by larger labels for national, or, at least, West Coast regional distribution ("Dance With Me" by Dot, and "Taking Care of Business" by GNP Creschendo).  I've heard those 2.  I haven't heard the 1967 and 1968 Cuts by Soul Benefit and Joint Effort.  Those may be Soul/Funk records.  I put up what I know on a discography of Ruby-Doo Records on a thread in the "Look In Your Box" SubForum.  Check it out.

 The sound file is no problem at all (it will be Saturday though)  yes the joint effort was one of the others now you mention it.....i keep my collection by Artist order so labels can take some finding !