Talc On Dancefloor - Serious Situation

[Wiganer1]

hi guys ,,in a bit of a perilous situation here..sorry if posting in wrong room. .

i did a northern nite last year for my 40th..and hired a local club for the doo..

about 15 mins from the end..a friend of ours slipped on some talc and consequently broke her elbow..causing her to be off for some time..

the person decided to sue the club,,who have in turned passed this on to me being the hirer of the room.

what i need to know is if anyone can help is the following:-

ive been asked who my insurer is and obviously at the time its not something i thought of.

Does this make things worse for me ?

is it worth asking the injured party to cancel the claim? (its one of those no win no fee things)

what likely charges are they likely to charge for doing so?

im hoping our friend will be able to drop their claim but i have to admit that im shitting it a little..the price of entertaining eh?

naturally this is a warning to all of you out there who put an event on and the consequent of an unfortunate accident....

thanks for any advice guys,,regards

mark

[Guest Dan]

hi guys ,,in a bit of a perilous situation here..sorry if posting in wrong room. .

i did a northern nite last year for my 40th..and hired a local club for the doo..

about 15 mins from the end..a friend of ours slipped on some talc and consequently broke her elbow..causing her to be off for some time..

the person decided to sue the club,,who have in turned passed this on to me being the hirer of the room.

what i need to know is if anyone can help is the following:-

ive been asked who my insurer is and obviously at the time its not something i thought of.

Does this make things worse for me ?

is it worth asking the injured party to cancel the claim? (its one of those no win no fee things)

what likely charges are they likely to charge for doing so?

im hoping our friend will be able to drop their claim but i have to admit that im shitting it a little..the price of entertaining eh?

naturally this is a warning to all of you out there who put an event on and the consequent of an unfortunate accident....

thanks for any advice guys,,regards

mark

scary situation mark.

i suspect the club are trying it on a bit. they will have (or certainly should have ) public liability insurance and i reckon that you automatically get the benefit of that when you hire their facilities (unless they gave you a contract in which they advised you that their insurance didn't extend to private events, and suggested you got your own; otherwise, i can't see how it's your responsibility.)

the fact that it was talc she slipped on - ie you knew talc might be used, the club didn't - might be a factor against you BUT if you've used the club before and thus they knew about the talc and didn't ask you to ensure it wasn't used again, that probably throws it back to them. (the issue of how far you can actually stop people using talc is another question, of course.)

finally, if your mate is a soulie who knows that talc is used on dance floors, and was dancing in the talc when the accident happened, or even ewalking carelessly across the dancefloor, then i think it's arguable that she was contributorily negligent (ie it was to some extent her own fault).

my advice is: write to the club and suggest that it's down to their insurance to deal with this.

i wouldn't advise trying to do a secret deal with the injured party, personally.

i would be careful not to get into any arguments with the club, or talk about the talc or the incident: keep it to a very brief letter. admit nothing in the letter!

Edited August 1, 2006 by Dan

[BrianB]

Mark,

She will be advised to sue the club, even though it may be your responsibility. If she sues you, with no insurance, she may get a couple of grand, that she has to go to court for, and you might pay that at a tenner a week.

She sues the club through vicarious responsibility, ie, their club, their dance floor and they have public liability insurance, she gets £10k, paid in one lump sum, and probably never sees a court.

They then put signs up saying careful, the floor may be slippy. Thye also ban talc, and all the other good things.

Rest assured mate, you ain't gonna get sued!

[SteveM]

Mark,

She will be advised to sue the club, even though it may be your responsibility. If she sues you, with no insurance, she may get a couple of grand, that she has to go to court for, and you might pay that at a tenner a week.

She sues the club through vicarious responsibility, ie, their club, their dance floor and they have public liability insurance, she gets £10k, paid in one lump sum, and probably never sees a court.

They then put signs up saying careful, the floor may be slippy. Thye also ban talc, and all the other good things.

Rest assured mate, you ain't gonna get sued!

Wouldn't she be advised to, initially at least, sue both ?

[Guest Stuart T]

hi guys ,,in a bit of a perilous situation here..sorry if posting in wrong room. .

i did a northern nite last year for my 40th..and hired a local club for the doo..

about 15 mins from the end..a friend of ours slipped on some talc and consequently broke her elbow..causing her to be off for some time..

the person decided to sue the club,,who have in turned passed this on to me being the hirer of the room.

what i need to know is if anyone can help is the following:-

ive been asked who my insurer is and obviously at the time its not something i thought of.

She has commenced action against the club? Write back and tell them if that is the case you fail to see how you can in any way be involved. Then either she has to commence proceedings against you or they will have to join you in the defence of the accident as a co-respondent or whatever its called under the new rules. play it with a straight bat, and just tell them its none of your business as you are not a party to the action. I'd be surprised if they join you in.

Just goes to show why people shouldn't chuck talc about all over the shop and why some places ban it. Though if the injured person is on the northern sould scene she should know about the risk of talc and leaving aside questions of contributory negligence which Dan rightly raises, she should take a long hard look at herself if she is after some free cash. Otherwise every promoter would have to ban talc and keep a broom and mop handy if anyone put some down, clear the dancefloor if anyone broke the rules, search people for talc, or possibly give up altogether.

[paultp]

Mark,

I'm 99.9% sure it is the club's responsibility to ensure that adequate insurance is in place for public liability.

If they didn't inform you that you had to provide some insurance cover then they are deffo liable as you have every right to assume you are covered by their policy. They are trying it on, tell them to swivel.

Cheers

Paul

[Guest Baz]

Sad situation, we are increasingly getting like america, where every ones sue every one else for looking at them the wrong way and these no win no fee adverts plastered over the telly is not helping, its not helping our economy either, should be laws againt this kind of advertising.

Sorry to hear about that Mark, like Dan says im pretty sure the club are trying it on, they have public liability, or at least they should otherwise they should not be trading. hope you get it sorted.

[Markw]

Mark

I'm not a lawyer, but I have had a lot of exposure to contract and liability matters. Observations:-

1. never admit liability or indicate any admission of liability

2. the club should be covered under their public liability insurance which should automatically cover you as part of your contract of hire with them - was there a signed hire agreement or a standard terms and conditions issued to you?

3. it could well be that the insurers might then be able to pursue a negligence claim against you, but that is up to them to prove negligence on your part

4. if your friend is used to going to soul nights and aware that talc is used on dancefloors, then they could be held to have contributed to the negligence by not taking care on the dancefloor

5. Ady Croasdell had this problem a few years back at the 100 Club - might be worth talking to him

Hope it gets sorted mate. Best.

Mark White

[Guest]

As I read this post (which I have to say is pretty scary and not something I would have ever considered) on reaching the bottom the banner ad across the bottom was...

'Injured in an accident? Not your fault? SUE THE B*STARDS!'... well not quite but it was one of those ads for the ambulance chasers! Seemed slightly ironic.

Sue-happy nation!

Back to the thread, good luck mate, I'm sure it has to be the venues responsibility. I actually have a friend in Personal Injury law so will drop them a line and see what they say. Get back to you shortly!

Kc xx

[SteveM]

Mark,

I'm 99.9% sure it is the club's responsibility to ensure that adequate insurance is in place for public liability.

If they didn't inform you that you had to provide some insurance cover then they are deffo liable as you have every right to assume you are covered by their policy. They are trying it on, tell them to swivel.

Cheers

Paul

Although maybe not in this case, the vast majority of (admittedly bigger) businesses require the hirer to provide their own PL cover.

Did you have a contract/invoice Mark ?

[Godzilla]

Mark,

I'm 99.9% sure it is the club's responsibility to ensure that adequate insurance is in place for public liability.

If they didn't inform you that you had to provide some insurance cover then they are deffo liable as you have every right to assume you are covered by their policy. They are trying it on, tell them to swivel.

Cheers

Paul

Yep.

Scarborough Borough Council used to have a policy whereby the hirer had to have a million quids worth of insurance in place. Sounds scary but I think it only used to cost 40 quid or so. Without proof you couldn't hire the venues. Sounds very much like the club is trying to wriggle out of making a claim.

Good luck with this, Mark

Godz

[Godzilla]

Can everyone see the same advert banner under this thread?

Godz

Edit:

oops - Kitty Kat got there before me

Edited August 1, 2006 by Godzilla

[Guest lifeandsoul]

not sure exactly how the google ads work but they pick up on words on the webpage - so on this page there is now an advert - Injured in an accident - want compensation - contact ..

Thats all you need to see on this thread !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

oops and me!

[michael-j]

no-one's asked it yet, but is this person still a friend...?

[Guest ShaneH]

yeah google ads are generated by key words in a thread. i often look and see all sorts of weird ones

Shane

[Wiganer1]

Although maybe not in this case, the vast majority of (admittedly bigger) businesses require the hirer to provide their own PL cover.

Did you have a contract/invoice Mark ?

========

i had an invoice (but didnt keep) but i have seen it at the club since and on this it no way said i was responsible ,,the other thing is i cannot remember any terms and conditions which definately know didnt get a copy of but i have another soul friend who has booked the room for a similar event later this year. ill ask her and it'll jog my memory

thanks for the replys guys ,,it means alot...

no-one's asked it yet, but is this person still a friend...?

====

yes

it was an accident after all,.something i and i would suggest alot of others have taken for granted.

ta

[Guest Matt Male]

Sorry to hear about this Mark, hope everything is still ok for saturday? Looking forward to it.

[Guest Dan]

i had an invoice (but didnt keep) but i have seen it at the club since and on this it no way said i was responsible ,,the other thing is i cannot remember any terms and conditions

big lesson for all promoters and everyone, really. keep your paperwork! even if you just stuff it in a drawer. sure it'll sort itself out mark - just be firm and brief in your letter

[Wiganer1]

big lesson for all promoters and everyone, really. keep your paperwork! even if you just stuff it in a drawer. sure it'll sort itself out mark - just be firm and brief in your letter

=====

cheers dan

will know more later when ive seen sams letter from the same place,,situation should be alot clearer..

thanks mate

[Tony Turner]

I would advise not entering into a dialogue with the club, either verbally or in writing. Let all letters go unanswered and they will probably lose interest. If you reply they will probably write to you requesting all sorts of documentation from you, this is a standard approach from people looking to frighten you.

I have a lot of experience in Health and Safety matters and I wouldn't worry too much if I were you.

TT

[Guest Soultown andy]

I,m going through the exact same thing at one of my venues nothing to worry about i assure you,give me a ring if you want .

[Guest Baz]

I find it quite sad and low, to try and sting people putting on do's by sueing them...........

[Guest Dan]

I would advise not entering into a dialogue with the club, either verbally or in writing. Let all letters go unanswered and they will probably lose interest. If you reply they will probably write to you requesting all sorts of documentation from you, this is a standard approach from people looking to frighten you.

I have a lot of experience in Health and Safety matters and I wouldn't worry too much if I were you.

TT

not being funny but i think this is bad advice tony, though i could be wrong.

one thing never to do with things like this is ignore them and hope they'll go away. in my experience

[Glyn Williams]

you lot shoud be aware though that although the venue's PL insurance will cover you for anything caused by their facilities - ie the dancefloor or toilets for example but will not stretch to your sound equipment.

Every mobile disco knows this and has to have PL insurance to about 3 million these days and covers you for speakers falling on heads, cable trips etc - basically anything to do with your part of facility provision.

#

If you are a promoter and have your own equipment you do need public liability to cover yourself - cost is around £120 a year.

[Guest]

you lot shoud be aware though that although the venue's PL insurance will cover you for anything caused by their facilities - ie the dancefloor or toilets for example but will not stretch to your sound equipment.

Every mobile disco knows this and has to have PL insurance to about 3 million these days and covers you for speakers falling on heads, cable trips etc - basically anything to do with your part of facility provision.

#

If you are a promoter and have your own equipment you do need public liability to cover yourself - cost is around £120 a year.

Hi Mark

Glynn is right here mate!! All of the events I do in Northampton, Wellingborough, Kettering, Bedford and soon Peterborough has to be done with a promoters Public Liability Insurance. More and more venue's nowadays whether they mention it to you or not, will put the responsability on the promoter. Any event running without PL from the promoter is really taking a chance! Sorry mate!

Cheers

Paddy

[Wiganer1]

Hi Mark

Glynn is right here mate!! All of the events I do in Northampton, Wellingborough, Kettering, Bedford and soon Peterborough has to be done with a promoters Public Liability Insurance. More and more venue's nowadays whether they mention it to you or not, will put the responsability on the promoter. Any event running without PL from the promoter is really taking a chance! Sorry mate!

Cheers

Paddy

=======

its ok paddy

if i can get thru this,,,ive will have learned a few lessons i can tell ya....

its only make its worse as ive got another do at the weekend but im determined not to let it spoil it !

thanks for you reply m8

mark

[Wiganer1]

you lot shoud be aware though that although the venue's PL insurance will cover you for anything caused by their facilities - ie the dancefloor or toilets for example but will not stretch to your sound equipment.

Every mobile disco knows this and has to have PL insurance to about 3 million these days and covers you for speakers falling on heads, cable trips etc - basically anything to do with your part of facility provision.

#

If you are a promoter and have your own equipment you do need public liability to cover yourself - cost is around £120 a year.

======

does it matter that i dont have equipment..?

[Guest]

Why would someone be off for a long time with a broken elbow? Are you sure it wasn't talc mixed with spilled drinks? I've not known talc to be treacherous on it's own and I dance on it all the time with slippy soled boots. Were there witnesses to prove it was just talc or maybe she has been lured into No Win No Fee promise of free money?

If they're your friend I'm sure they would drop any claim for compensation if it's implicating you in any way.

If she's serious about going down the compensation route, what actual financial loss has she incurred - does her employer pay sick pay?

Was the injured party very drunk? Can the blame be solely laid at the door of a talcy floor?

Are there photographs available of the said evening?

Please don't think I'm being negative against the injured party here (broken elbow's are soooo painful!) , but it's a question about the defence we're discussing

Irrespective of your hiring of the hall, you are hiring it under their terms and conditions so unless they made you sign a disclaimer about injuries or personal losses, or if they have a publicly displayed notice refuting any such liability, then really you're covered under their own public liability insurance (if they have any, which of course they should!!!).

[Sanquine]

I know talc has always been used by dancers myself included in the past, but recently at an event I was dancing away unaided by talc, to my amazement a guy came onto dance floor poored talc in a circle in centre of floor and before I say anything he vanished into the bar area (he wasn't even dancing) made dancing difficult for a lot of people, talc poured without thought onto dance floors has increased recently, a friend of mine fell on slippy floor recently and has pot on foot and crutches for a few weeks.

What ever happened to consideration to others, I used put a small amount on edge of dance floor......

Thread related, if not directly responding to post.

Karen

Edited August 1, 2006 by sanquine

[Cheltsoulnights]

Hi mark

i install clubs for a living and have had claims twice, all of which the venues tried to pass on

Firstly

Do not reply to any letters unless they are from a court

in which case take legal advise before proceeding

secondly

even if they pope rings you, state you can not make any comment with litigation pending

thirdly

Do not return to the premises for another event or even to pick up your coat, they may try to interview you with witnesses present.

fourthly?

Do not communicate with the injured party at any time, refer to second rule.

Best of luck, It will be hard not to talk to people about this, but its curtains for you if you do.

I'm sure that the clubs insurance will have to settle if you stay clear

Pete

[Guest Dan]

recently at an event I was dancing away unaided by talc, to my amazement a guy came onto dance floor poored talc in a circle in centre of floor and before I say anything he vanished into the bar area

sounds like the phantom talc-er has struck again, karen. one day the soul police will nail him. that sonofabitch has ruined too many lives.

ps little tip, if anyone sees him again, scoop a bit of the talc up and sent it off to our lab. we may be able to dna it.

[Guest Stuart T]

Irrespective of your hiring of the hall, you are hiring it under their terms and conditions so unless they made you sign a disclaimer about injuries or personal losses, or if they have a publicly displayed notice refuting any such liability, then really you're covered under their own public liability insurance (if they have any, which of course they should!!!).

You can't disclaim liability for personal injuries. If the person making the claim could show that the organiser was negligent they would have a claim. The club's insurance will presumably only cover its liability. Anyone on the soul scene who makes a claim about talc on the dancefloor is really being a bit of an arse though, irritating as some people's love and overuse of it may be.

secondly

even if they pope rings you, state you can not make any comment with litigation pending

Would it be okay to discuss it in a confession box though?

[SteveM]

Irrespective of your hiring of the hall, you are hiring it under their terms and conditions so unless they made you sign a disclaimer about injuries or personal losses, or if they have a publicly displayed notice refuting any such liability, then really you're covered under their own public liability insurance (if they have any, which of course they should!!!).

If you hire under their terms and conditions, you accept those with the booking. If you enter into a contract, you need to know what you are signing. And if signed, you have to abide by it, as long as its fair and reasonable. Thats the starting point surely, to get those facts sorted rather than sit on paperwork and never answer the 'phone. This is not a rogue debt collection service on the make chasing Mark, he needs proper advice based on all the facts. Including any contributory negligence if applicable.

[Tony Turner]

not being funny but i think this is bad advice tony, though i could be wrong.

one thing never to do with things like this is ignore them and hope they'll go away. in my experience

Still stand by the advice though Dan, I have dealt with many many claims for far more serious injuries in the workplace.

Some defences could be it wasn't talc that she slipped on but dust due to poor hygiene (seriously) and I have probably seen many others.

TT

[Billywhizz]

hi guys ,,in a bit of a perilous situation here..sorry if posting in wrong room. .

i did a northern nite last year for my 40th..and hired a local club for the doo..

about 15 mins from the end..a friend of ours slipped on some talc and consequently broke her elbow..causing her to be off for some time..

the person decided to sue the club,,who have in turned passed this on to me being the hirer of the room.

what i need to know is if anyone can help is the following:-

ive been asked who my insurer is and obviously at the time its not something i thought of.

Does this make things worse for me ?

is it worth asking the injured party to cancel the claim? (its one of those no win no fee things)

what likely charges are they likely to charge for doing so?

im hoping our friend will be able to drop their claim but i have to admit that im shitting it a little..the price of entertaining eh?

naturally this is a warning to all of you out there who put an event on and the consequent of an unfortunate accident....

thanks for any advice guys,,regards

mark

In simple lamen terms Mark u got nothing to worry about, only if u sign a contract to say u got the responsability for the hire of the room as u hired the room in good faith it would not get to court it's down to the owners. Billy P.S see u Saturday

[Glyn Williams]

makes you wonder if they could sue the person that dropped the talc?

this is bluff and bluster anyway - it's pure bo***cks

if this were true then you could sue a nightclub for having a wet toilet floor, for the bar not being spotless etc. not yet in this country.

I agree though - ignore it - it is not your liability. - these companies try to sue anything that moves in the hope that it will be an insurance claim paid out and will not get to court. - If you get a summons then that is the time to do something about a defence. if you dont and just get shitty letters from lawyers or venue's just ignore em

On a lighter note and a true story - did you hear about the bloke that successfully sued black and decker for around half a million?

he used a hand drill switched on to pick his nose - it caught and the guy lost his nose.

their attack was that black and decker did not put in the instructions that you should not insert the drill bit into any body orifaces.

strange but true he won his case

the moral of the story is that you cannot prepare for every eventuality and nutter no matter what you do so if you are a promoter get PL insurance just for the peace of mind - £100 a year is small potatoes at the side of what you'll pay if a speaker drops on someone.

[Guest Stuart T]

You can be liable to someone in a room being injured if the injury is your fault. You cannot get out of that liability in any way whatsoever through a contract since the Unfair Contract Terms Act was passed. Then you're arguments boil down to whether you were actually the person who should bear responsibility. For instance in many clubs you are not technically in charge of a room, they staff it and put in security, you don't control it so are unlikely to be liable for an injury caused by the actions of another guest or customer. On the other hand if you threw marbles on the floor and someone fell on them you might be liable. Yes, you might be able to sue whoever dropped the talc as well.

theres a lot of guesses as to what the law is on this thread. I'd still say respond to them with "She is suing you not me so its nothing to do with me, I suggest that you contact your own insurers, after all its your room" and leave it at that.

[Cheltsoulnights]

Would it be okay to discuss it in a confession box though?

We could admit to soliciting

I wonder what the penalty would be

[steve z]

hi guys ,,in a bit of a perilous situation here..sorry if posting in wrong room. .

i did a northern nite last year for my 40th..and hired a local club for the doo..

about 15 mins from the end..a friend of ours slipped on some talc and consequently broke her elbow..causing her to be off for some time..

the person decided to sue the club,,who have in turned passed this on to me being the hirer of the room.

what i need to know is if anyone can help is the following:-

ive been asked who my insurer is and obviously at the time its not something i thought of.

Does this make things worse for me ?

is it worth asking the injured party to cancel the claim? (its one of those no win no fee things)

what likely charges are they likely to charge for doing so?

im hoping our friend will be able to drop their claim but i have to admit that im shitting it a little..the price of entertaining eh?

naturally this is a warning to all of you out there who put an event on and the consequent of an unfortunate accident....

thanks for any advice guys,,regards

mark

Hi Mark ,hope your friend is recovering well.Some differing replies and advice to your query.

What was she dancing to?" Slipped ,tripped and fell in love"- "watch out girl" "broken heart attack"-"don't pity me"the hurt"-"I'm a victim" "Talcing 'bout my baby"" hurt so bad" etc etc Hope the perpertrator is caught ATB Steve

[Guest]

You can't disclaim liability for personal injuries. If the person making the claim could show that the organiser was negligent they would have a claim.

/quote]

Hi Mark

The point Stuart makes is the main one, as I understand it, if the injured person can prove you were negligent for their injury, then it is to you they will make the claim to and for that reason alone is why a promoter needs PL Insurance! It is a dodgy old game this promoting lark!

Cheers

Paddy

[Guest dundeedavie]

has the person involved been to a soul night before ? ...if so then they would have been well aware of the use of talc and that surely nullifies it ...no? slipping on something you knew would be there

[mischief]

I dj'd at a friends wedding (never again) and the venue asked to see my insurance before they would confirm the hire of the hall, the venue owner would only let them pencil in a date untill they see the insurance certificate.

I hope you sort this maybe best to get proper advice... I would make an apointment with C.A.B and they maybe able to help or point you in the right direction.

[steve z]

has the person involved been to a soul night before ? ...if so then they would have been well aware of the use of talc and that surely nullifies it ...no? slipping on something you knew would be there

Hi Davie "Injury lawyers for You" advert on T.V. I was walking across reception when I slipped....water on the floor that wasn't sign posted etc a sign post for Talc?

Litigation ...the condition of the substrate /the finished floor ,could go on for years...ATB Steve........ Oh contractors who performed the tasks...what about the architect.....did this person KNOW talc would possibly be utilised to enable "Northern" ....oh No "newies/oldies/RnB...etc

[Guest]

Yes, if they'd overpolished the floor prior to your event taking place that would certainly have proven fatal.

The more I read this thread the more it's pissing me off actually. So someone fell over! Could have happened with or without talc or soul music.

It's free money they're after and that's the only reason they're going to a no win no fee agent I suspect.

[Guest lifeandsoul]

linking two threads - what if the promoter is giving away talc to use with flyers ?

[steve z]

Yes, if they'd overpolished the floor prior to your event taking place that would certainly have proven fatal.

The more I read this thread the more it's pissing me off actually. So someone fell over! Could have happened with or without talc or soul music.

It's free money they're after and that's the only reason they're going to a no win no fee agent I suspect.

I agree...Was she wearing Non-slip dancing attire...What size (if any) heels did she have on her tootsies? Was she wearing "tights" that may have caused slip between her shoes and the nylon on her feet? Are both her feet the same size? Has she had a hip replacement in the last 50 years?What condition are her ,as yet undefined , slippers in etc etc....Accidents happen IMHO

[mischief]

linking two threads - what if the promoter is giving away talc to use with flyers ?

well then more fool you, you should have kept the flyer in tact as its a future collectors item

Thats a topic collecting flyers is it just me or as anyone else got them in every room in there house insted of the bin

[Guest]

I dance on it and have never fallen over... I have slipped badly on more than one occasion due to drink spilled on it though.

Didn't once enter my head to sue anyone... ever!

[Wiganer1]

I dj'd at a friends wedding (never again) and the venue asked to see my insurance before they would confirm the hire of the hall, the venue owner would only let them pencil in a date untill they see the insurance certificate.

I hope you sort this maybe best to get proper advice... I would make an apointment with C.A.B and they maybe able to help or point you in the right direction.

==============

thanks mischief and everyone for the support...

going out in a mo to down a few pints to stop thinking about it ..

cheers guys

fluff

[Guest]

well then more fool you, you should have kept the flyer in tact as its a future collectors item

Thats a topic collecting flyers is it just me or as anyone else got them in every room in there house insted of the bin

Well... just my conservatory at present