New Motown Cd From Ace/kent

[Guest]

great news from Keith Hughes/Ace/Kent

New Motown CD from Ace: Satisfaction Is Guaranteed!

Ace Records is pleased to announce that "Satisfaction Is Guaranteed! - Motown Guys 1961-1969" will be released at the end of October. To celebrate this lucky 13th Ace/Motown CD (as always, authorised by Universal Music), for the first time ever the set will consist entirely of tracks never released before on either vinyl or CD - as follows:

Bobby Taylor & the Vancouvers - Satisfaction Is Guaranteed (1968)

Marv Johnson - Safety Zone (1965)

Johnny Bristol - Tell Me How To Forget A True Love (1964)

The Hit Pack - Show Me You Can Dance (1965)

Edwin Starr - The Sound Of Love (1969)

The Spinners - Hold On To Me (A Little Longer)(1968)

Smokey Robinson & the Miracles - Baby You Got The Key (1966)

Chuck Jackson - Where Did You Go (1967)

Frank Wilson - Together 'Til The End Of Time (1965)

Ivy Jo - Just Your Love (1965)

The Fantastic Four - I Wanna Say I Love You (1969)

Jimmy Ruffin - (Loneliness Made Me Realize) It's You That I Need (1965)

Freddie Gorman - I'm Gonna Make It To The Top (1963)

Bruce Channel - I Wanted To Cry (1963)

Marvin Gaye - Mojo Hannah (1963)

Shorty Long - Headin' North (1965)

The Headliners - Only On The Weekend (1965)

The Temptations - He Who Picks A Rose [version 1] (1963)

Gino Parks - Taking Candy From A Baby (1961)

Jr. Walker & the All Stars - My Girl Annie(1968)

The Serenaders - Say, Say, Baby (1963)

The Contours - Claudia [alternate version] (1961)

The Quails - This Ole Heart (1963)

Four Tops - The Night We Called It A Day (1963)

[Robbk]

Very impressive song list.  That took some digging in The Vault.  It reminds me of my days there.  Finally, almost all the songs we slated for release have made it to plastic, CD or Digital release.

[Guest MBarrett]

It reminds me of my days there. 

 

Robb I know you have said before about working at Motown.

 

Apologies if you have documented this before but how did you cross over from avid collector to the music industry?

 

What took you to Motown?

 

Who were you there with and why?

 

Sorry to be nosey. But it seems like there is an interesting back story here.

Edited August 23, 2014 by MBarrett

[Robbk]

Robb I know you have said before about working at Motown.

 

Apologies if you have documented this before but how did you cross over from avid collector to the music industry?

 

What took you to Motown?

 

Who were you there with and why?

 

Sorry to be nosey. But it seems like there is an interesting back story here.

I met Tom DePierro there in early 1974.  Someone told him I was a big Motown collector.  He liked my taste in music.  We became friends.  I showed him where he could find good R & B and Soul records in the L.A. area.  I hung out at Motown, while not overseas on UN jobs.  In 1976, we suggested that Motown should release the best of its vaulted recordings.  I was taken on as a consultant on the project.  It was general, at first, and soon got formalised as the "From The Vaults" project.  At first, it was expected that it would start with 5 LPs on Motown, and if they sold well, there would be 5 more.  I guess there were people there that didn't have much faith that there was a market for that old unreleased music.  We ended op getting only 1 LP out on the recently-started budget label, Natural Resources, and NO marketing push or exposure, whatsoever.  It was doomed to failure.  They did put out 2 more LPs after Tom and I left (starting Airwave Records). One was released in 1981, and one in 1982 (with different series names).  They used only unreleased songs from major artists, except a Monitors, a Kim Weston. and a Spinners (only because of their Atlantic success).  More of our work got used when lots of unreleased cuts got onto Motown's 25th Anniversary albums from 1984.

 

"Say, Say Baby" by The Serenaders and "This Ole Heart" by The Five Quails, both on this new Ace CD, represent the last of our chosen cuts to make it to legitimate release, unless "Tears, Nobody, And A Smile" by The Serenaders has still not made it (although I believe it has).

 

Even The Pronouns and many of the other Motown Gospel I suggested make up one special album, have at least, made it to digital release.

[Guest MBarrett]

I met Tom DePierro there in early 1974.  Someone told him I was a big Motown collector.  He liked my taste in music.  We became friends.  I showed him where he could find good R & B and Soul records in the L.A. area.  I hung out at Motown, while not overseas on UN jobs.  In 1976, we suggested that Motown should release the best of its vaulted recordings.  I was taken on as a consultant on the project.  It was general, at first, and soon got formalised as the "From The Vaults" project.  At first, it was expected that it would start with 5 LPs on Motown, and if they sold well, there would be 5 more.  I guess there were people there that didn't have much faith that there was a market for that old unreleased music.  We ended op getting only 1 LP out on the recently-started budget label, Natural Resources, and NO marketing push or exposure, whatsoever.  It was doomed to failure.  They did put out 2 more LPs after Tom and I left (starting Airwave Records). One was released in 1981, and one in 1982 (with different series names).  They used only unreleased songs from major artists, except a Monitors, a Kim Weston. and a Spinners (only because of their Atlantic success).  More of our work got used when lots of unreleased cuts got onto Motown's 25th Anniversary albums from 1984.

 

"Say, Say Baby" by The Serenaders and "This Ole Heart" by The Five Quails, both on this new Ace CD, represent the last of our chosen cuts to make it to legitimate release, unless "Tears, Nobody, And A Smile" by The Serenaders has still not made it (although I believe it has).

 

Even The Pronouns and many of the other Motown Gospel I suggested make up one special album, have at least, made it to digital release.

 

Thanks Robb. I find that really fascinating. I'm sure some others on this forum will know this stuff - but it's all new to me.

 

Do you know if much stuff get dumped when Motown moved to LA. With the move to a new state, and all sorts of new musical horizons I guess they might have had a major "house clearance."

 

I imagine you were working with a combination of tapes and acetates and records and paperwork and personal stories. Did the Motown archive/vault have its own climate controlled premises and were things in reasonably good order. Or was it a complete nightmare, as archives can often be.

 

I know a while back you mentioned Simon Soussan's involvement with Tom's copy of DILY. Was SS a constant thorn in your side or was it only in respect of that one record.

 

Sorry for questions, questions, questions, but I do find it really interesting.

[Robbk]

Thanks Robb. I find that really fascinating. I'm sure some others on this forum will know this stuff - but it's all new to me.

 

Do you know if much stuff get dumped when Motown moved to LA. With the move to a new state, and all sorts of new musical horizons I guess they might have had a major "house clearance."

 

I imagine you were working with a combination of tapes and acetates and records and paperwork and personal stories. Did the Motown archive/vault have its own climate controlled premises and were things in reasonably good order. Or was it a complete nightmare, as archives can often be.

 

I know a while back you mentioned Simon Soussan's involvement with Tom's copy of DILY. Was SS a constant thorn in your side or was it only in respect of that one record.

 

Sorry for questions, questions, questions, but I do find it really interesting.

NOTHING got dumped in the move to L.A.  The people in charge of the tapes library saw to that, and made sure that the movers were very careful with it all. They had it catalogued in an extremely orderly fashion, so it remained intact, and was set up in L.A. in an orderly arrangement within a few weeks.  It was in a climate-controlled room (cool and relatively dry -but not too dry).   It was among the more orderly archives I've seen.  But, of course, in being used by many, there were items checked out, and some misplaced (e.g. placed in the wrong place/out of order).

 

Simon Soussan spent many days in our offices sporadically, (from 1977-1983), both at Motown and Airwave, browsing through our record files.  He ended up with a LOT of Northern Soul records.  I think it is more likely that he bought them from Tom, rather than "lifting them".  Tom was always needing cash, and I think most of that money gained from those sales, while we were still at Motown, helped him put money together to start Airwave.  The sales at airwave helped him have some cash to continue going, as distributors didn't pay us, even when our Delia Renee release sold pretty well.

[Guest keithhughes]

Robb, attempts to locate "Tears, Nobody And A Smile" in the Vaults have so far proved unsuccessful. I suspect if it's there it will logged under another title - as was "LaBrenda Ben"'s version of "I Got A Right To Cry". If it's ever found, I don't suppose there will be any problem in releasing it, as other tracks by the Serenaders have been cleared for release.

 

The Serenaders were "discovered" in NYC by Miss Ray. It's possible that this track was recorded there, the tape never reached Detroit, and the acetate from which the song is known was pressed in NY. However, most Jobete acetates were recorded in Detroit, I think. Did you ever find a tape source for the track when you were working at Motown?

[Robbk]

Robb, attempts to locate "Tears, Nobody And A Smile" in the Vaults have so far proved unsuccessful. I suspect if it's there it will logged under another title - as was "LaBrenda Ben"'s version of "I Got A Right To Cry". If it's ever found, I don't suppose there will be any problem in releasing it, as other tracks by the Serenaders have been cleared for release.

 

The Serenaders were "discovered" in NYC by Miss Ray. It's possible that this track was recorded there, the tape never reached Detroit, and the acetate from which the song is known was pressed in NY. However, most Jobete acetates were recorded in Detroit, I think. Did you ever find a tape source for the track when you were working at Motown?

No, we never found a tape for "Tears, Nobody, and a Smile".  We just had a Jobete acetate of it.  I doubt that it was recorded in New York, the track has Motown Musicians playing on it.  I have read from a quote by one of the group, (either George Kerr, Sidney Barnes or Timothy Wilson) that they were taken to Detroit and did a session there (about 5-6 songs).  With the 2 cuts released on VIP, "Say, Say Baby", surely this one was one of that handful.  It sounds the most Detroitish and Motownish of them all.  That plunky piano must have been Joe Hunter.

 

On Miss Ray "discovering" The Serenaders, - that's a VERY loose term, in this case.  I've read from several sources that George Kerr and Sidney Barnes (separate interviews with both) answered Jobete Music New York's startup advert, in late spring, 1963, for songwriters and demo recording producers.  They were hired.  Their own group, The Serenaders, was brought along, as a group to sing demos, just as George Cinton brought in his Parliaments.  The Serenaders were hardly unknown.  They had had an East Coast regional hit with "Never Let Me Go" on Chock Full of Hits in late 1959-1960, and had a current regional hit out on Riverside in spring/summer 1963 ("Adios My Love").  They had sung in local clubs in The New York/New Jersey Metro Area all along.

[Guest MBarrett]

NOTHING got dumped in the move to L.A.  The people in charge of the tapes library saw to that, and made sure that the movers were very careful with it all. They had it catalogued in an extremely orderly fashion, so it remained intact, and was set up in L.A. in an orderly arrangement within a few weeks.  It was in a climate-controlled room (cool and relatively dry -but not too dry).   It was among the more orderly archives I've seen.  But, of course, in being used by many, there were items checked out, and some misplaced (e.g. placed in the wrong place/out of order).

 

Simon Soussan spent many days in our offices sporadically, (from 1977-1983), both at Motown and Airwave, browsing through our record files.  He ended up with a LOT of Northern Soul records.  I think it is more likely that he bought them from Tom, rather than "lifting them".  Tom was always needing cash, and I think most of that money gained from those sales, while we were still at Motown, helped him put money together to start Airwave.  The sales at airwave helped him have some cash to continue going, as distributors didn't pay us, even when our Delia Renee release sold pretty well.

 

Thanks for sharing Robb. A great insight and much appreciated.

[Guest keithhughes]

Thanks, Robb. I put "discovered" in quotes, and checking back on Miss Ray's book, I think it was the right word - it looks like she thought she'd discovered them!

 

Hitsville Session logs show the Serenaders cut five tunes over two sessions in June 63: I'll Cry Tomorrow, If Your Heart Says Yes, Just Before You Leave, Slick Chick and Say Say Baby. We've checked the three unreleased tracks and they aren't "Tears" under a different name.  In his book, Sidney Barnes recalls just one session and thinks they did four songs, naming the the first two above and Say Say Baby. 

 

Another two tracks which sound like the Serenaders have emerged on Jobete acetates, "I'll Be Lonely" and "Change Of Pace". As with "Tears", there are no tape sources or session log entries for them either. Sadly, with no paper evidence to support the fact that they were Serenaders tracks, even if Universal or a licensing company were prepared to use needle-drops as a source it's unlikely that clearance for their release could be obtained. Sigh.

Edited August 23, 2014 by keithhughes

[Robbk]

Thanks, Robb. I put "discovered" in quotes, and checking back on Miss Ray's book, I think it was the right word - it looks like she thought she'd discovered them!

 

Hitsville Session logs show the Serenaders cut five tunes over two sessions in June 63: I'll Cry Tomorrow, If Your Heart Says Yes, Just Before You Leave, Slick Chick and Say Say Baby. We've checked the three unreleased tracks and they aren't "Tears" under a different name.  In his book, Sidney Barnes recalls just one session and thinks they did four songs, naming the the first two above and Say Say Baby. 

 

Another two tracks which sound like the Serenaders have emerged on Jobete acetates, "I'll Be Lonely" and "Change Of Pace". As with "Tears", there are no tape sources or session log entries for them either. Sadly, with no paper evidence to support the fact that they were Serenaders tracks, even if Universal or a licensing company were prepared to use needle-drops as a source it's unlikely that clearance for their release could be obtained. Sigh.

What bad news!  They were ALL 3 on Jobete Music acetates, made to prove ownership of their publishing rights.  THAT indicates that they had already been bought by Motown.  Shouldn't they be listed among Jobete's published songs?  The lead singer of "Tears, Nobody, And A Smile" was, clearly, The Serenaders other lead (than Timothy Wilson).  The rest of the singers sound like The Serenaders.  As they were not listed in The Serenaders' Detroit recirding session, I assume that the vocals were recorded in New York.  But, I still contend that the backing tracks were recorded in Detroit.  So, the session for those tracks should be listed around mid 1963.

 

Sidney Barnes is still alive.  Is George Kerr?   Is Timothy Wilson?  Can't we contact them and see if they know of any documentation?

[recordsnracin]

What bad news!  They were ALL 3 on Jobete Music acetates, made to prove ownership of their publishing rights.  THAT indicates that they had already been bought by Motown.  Shouldn't they be listed among Jobete's published songs?  The lead singer of "Tears, Nobody, And A Smile" was, clearly, The Serenaders other lead (than Timothy Wilson).  The rest of the singers sound like The Serenaders.  As they were not listed in The Serenaders' Detroit recirding session, I assume that the vocals were recorded in New York.  But, I still contend that the backing tracks were recorded in Detroit.  So, the session for those tracks should be listed around mid 1963.

 

Sidney Barnes is still alive.  Is George Kerr?   Is Timothy Wilson?  Can't we contact them and see if they know of any documentation?

[recordsnracin]

If I recall correctly,Timothy Wilson was Tiny Tim & The Hits on Roulette and is currently very much alive and singing lead with Jimmy Merchant and Herman Santiago with Frankie Lymon's Teenagers.

[Robbk]

Here is a link to the Stone Agate BMI listing for "Tears, Nobody, And A Smile" (changed from the earlier, Jobete Music):

 

https://repertoire.bmi.com/TitleSearch.asp?querytype=WorkName&page=1&fromrow=1&torow=25&keyname=Tears%20Nobody%20And%20A%20Smile&blnWriter=True&blnPublisher=True&blnArtist=False&blnAltTitles=False

 

It was written by George Kerr, Sidney Barnes and Luke Gross for Jobete Music, in mid 1963.  Clearly, the lead singer is Luke Gross (or whichever group member sang the leads regularly before Timothy Wilson (same lead as on "Never Let Me Go" , and "I'll Cry Tomorrow".  It's rights are still held by the Jobete/Stone Agate catalogue. So, does that make it usable by Universal?  Can't we get Sidney Barnes to confirm that his Serenaders' group sang it as the Jobete demonstration recording?  If so, wouldn't those 2 elements be enough for Universal to release it themselves, and/or to lease it to Ace/Kent or any of their other CD producing lessees?

[Robbk]

Bump up for Keith Hughes and others to answer my last question.

[Eddie Hubbard]

Great info Robb .Think Timothy Wilson is Miss Ray's nephew ? 

[Guest keithhughes]

Robb, no question that the song is a Jobete copyright. (So are the other two songs I mentioned.) For clearance/release purposes, the question is about the RECORDING. To give clearance for release, the Legal people at Universal would need to know when the recording was made - to be sure that all the performers were under an artist contract at that point. Suppose - just suppose - "Tears" was recorded in NYC after they signed writer contracts but before they signed artist contracts? I'm afraid that then the recoding would not belong to Universal, despite the "Jobete" on the label. That just means the song belongs to Jobete.

 

And anyway - who's got a copy of the acetate? And what state's it in? Occasionally Universal have put out Motown recordings that have been restored from vinyl, when there's no tape source available (see The Complete Motown Singles Volume 1 for examples), but I can't think of any examples they've allowed to go out restored from acetate. The Legacy must be presented in the best possible light. I, for one, respect that.

 

I'm truly sorry to be such a downer. I too would love it to come out, believe me!

[Robbk]

Robb, no question that the song is a Jobete copyright. (So are the other two songs I mentioned.) For clearance/release purposes, the question is about the RECORDING. To give clearance for release, the Legal people at Universal would need to know when the recording was made - to be sure that all the performers were under an artist contract at that point. Suppose - just suppose - "Tears" was recorded in NYC after they signed writer contracts but before they signed artist contracts? I'm afraid that then the recoding would not belong to Universal, despite the "Jobete" on the label. That just means the song belongs to Jobete.

 

And anyway - who's got a copy of the acetate? And what state's it in? Occasionally Universal have put out Motown recordings that have been restored from vinyl, when there's no tape source available (see The Complete Motown Singles Volume 1 for examples), but I can't think of any examples they've allowed to go out restored from acetate. The Legacy must be presented in the best possible light. I, for one, respect that.

 

I'm truly sorry to be such a downer. I too would love it to come out, believe me!

The acetate we had had a loud pop in it, but, otherwise, it had good quality sound.  But it was probably "lifted" from Motown's premises, and sold in the early 1990s, when so many Jobete and Motown acetates were sold on e-Bay auctions.

[macca]

Fascinating chaps. Keep it comin'!