"agent Oo-Soul" Vs "double-O Soul"

[Anoraks Corner]

So, there I was thumbing through the shelves when I reached a clutch of Ric-Tic releases. I stopped at Edwin's "Agent Double-O-Soul" and recalled a Manship auction when John had a copy up for grabs of "Agent OO-Soul". He had noted that the matrix code ended with an "A" ... ZTSC104309 1 A to be precise, with the flipside being ZTSC104314 1 A...thus reflecting it came from the initial batch.

 

Now, the copy I have (pictured) has the "1 A" on the main-side, yet "1 D"...odd that it had reached the 4th plate for the flipside yet were still using the initial plate for the main side?. Then I realised that the disc is actually on styrene not vinyl, so it would have been "injected" and not "stamped"...so the plates (not stampers) should've lasted a longer. So, what happened to the A, B and C plates for the instrumental...did they all  get damaged?!

 

So, sticking with this release only, who has which title, on what colour of label and matrix code combinations then...and apologies in advance for possibly the most Anorak question ever  

[Guest]

From John's auction October 2nd 2013:

[Kegsy]

Mine on Yellow is exactly the same as yours  1A/1D.

[Millo]

Just checked my copy of the the withdrawn 00 version and the matrix ends in A on both sides. Surprised the one in the auction fetched such a high price.

Edited August 10, 2014 by Millo

[Harry Crosby]

Think there was one for sale on here not so long back.

[Harry Crosby]

Thought there was one on here.

[Tlscapital]

Think there was one for sale on here not so long back.

Here t'is:

 

[Guest]

Interesting that folk seem to be referring to the first release as being "withdrawn"...maybe all copies were sent out and the powers then thought a title change may help, so it wasn't necessarily "withdrawn". Just a thought/different angle.

 

(Christ I'm bored...maybe it is the cabin-fever kicking in as I can't go out due to the typhoon blasting over Tokyo at present!)

       

[Harry Crosby]

Interesting that folk seem to be referring to the first release as being "withdrawn"...maybe all copies were sent out and the powers then thought a title change may help, so it wasn't necessarily "withdrawn". Just a thought/different angle.

 

(Christ I'm bored...maybe it is the cabin-fever kicking in as I can't go out due to the typhoon blasting over Tokyo at present!)

       

   stay safe Dave. By the way, I`m more Bored than the Bored world champion, on National bored day  

[Garethx]

With Columbia pressings A to D doesn't denote successive lacquers. That would be–for example–1A to 4A.

 

The A to D are different location codes for the individual parts, but the letter codes do not relate to specific plant locations. A is not always–for example–Terra Haute, B is not always Nashville etc. That's why you can have a 45 with a 1A per one side and a 1E on the other.

Edited August 10, 2014 by garethx

[Jerry Hipkiss]

Mine's the vinyl issue with red print, 1A and 1D matrix, with a pressing plant mark reading TVC (the T is on top of the V)...where would that plant be?

Edited August 10, 2014 by Jerry Hipkiss

[Alan Bonthrone1]

Anyone fancy a pint ?

[Kegsy]

Anyone fancy a pint ?

 

Yep I'll go for that.

Please send £2-60 as Paypal gift, beer's not dear int grim norf.

[Triode]

Perhaps we need a new category in the S.S. Hall of fame?

" the most Anorak question ever "

I cannot recall reading one better than this, although the Salvadors thread came close......

good luck with that bit of wind and rain Dave

[Guest]

With Columbia pressings A to D doesn't denote successive lacquers. That would be–for example–1A to 4A.

 

The A to D are different location codes for the individual parts, but the letter codes do not relate to specific plant locations. A is not always–for example–Terra Haute, B is not always Nashville etc. That's why you can have a 45 with a 1A per one side and a 1E on the other.

 

But does the letter refer to the press number or the location? Answer on this occasion is the pressing number not the location.

 

Anything with a "1@" + "1@" combination, regardless of the letter are also first press...no...as the "1" does not indicate the successive lacquer...and so we jump to a deep article on Columbia matrix numbers on londonjazzcollector.com:

The number before the letter(s) indicates the  tape (or mix) used in the mastering: If a matrix on Columbia issues ends in -1A, the 1 indicates the first tape or mix used, whilst the A indicates the lacquer cutting. Columbia used only the letters A-L, excluding I.

 

A 1st cutting; B 2nd; C 3rd; D 4th; E 5th;  F 6th;  G 7th;  H 8th;  J 9th;  K 10th;  L 11th; AA 12th; AB 13th; AC 14th; AD 15th etc.

 

So, a matrix ending in "1D" indicates that it is from the fourth lacquer...not "location D". On londonjazzcollector.com there is a picture of an original tape box (for a Bob Dylan album), which designates 1A, 1B, and 1C - respectively Terre Haute Indiana, Santa Maria CA, and Pitman NJ. As Gareth pointed out it is not known if this was the regular sequence of allocation. It does suggest that A, B and C are equally “first pressings” though - just from different locations/lacquers!

 

So, why multiple lacquers I hear you cry...if they had a potential hit of their hands and needed good distribution/pressing numbers, Columbia needed to supply at least its three US pressing plants — east, west  and centre. Each lacquer cutting was in theory capable of generating 8 "mothers" before quality fell below par, each mother generating 8 stampers, and each stamper pair generating in theory 2,500 records before it was worn out and needed replacing. Therefore, one lacquer cutting = around 150,000 records, three lacquer cuttings gets you close to a half million records. 

 

Clear as mud...and before y'all ask yes it is still incredibly windy in Tokyo

 

 

[Guest]

Anyone fancy a pint ?

 

 

Yep I'll go for that.

Please send £2-60 as Paypal gift, beer's not dear int grim norf.

 

Cheers Alan...I'll get the crisps in...and before you ask no I will not be starting a "What's your favourite flavour of crisps" thread...bored but not that bored!

[Garethx]

I take your point Dave, but it helps to think about it in these terms:

 

you make the first lacquer 1-A. It goes into a box and gets sent to California;

you make the second lacquer, 1-B. It goes into a box and gets sent to Indiana

 

etc.

 

This happens at the first lacquer cutting. The time delay between 1-A and 1-L is therefore negligible. L does not 'replace' A: it's simultaneous.

 

Successive lacquers, replacing the first for whatever reason, become 2-A, 2-B etc. The A-L codes are not location specific at all.

 

2 is the second pressing. This may be from the first tape, but with each successive lacquer cutting the tape box gets the numeral superimposed.

 

On Columbia albums there are plant specific codes. P for Pittman, New Jersey, S for Santa Maria, California, T for Terra Haute, Indiana etc. These are on the run outs, and occasionally on the back of the sleeve.

[Guest turntableterra]

These are the lable / numbers I have dave

 

yellow lable. black print. AGENT DOUBLE O SOUL   aside  (1a)  b side (1d)

yellow lable red print      AGENT DOUBLE O SOUL  a side (1b)  b side (1c)

red lable   black print      AGENT DOUBLE O SOUL  a side (1f)   b side (1d)

yellow lable red print      AGENT DOUBLE O SOUL  a side (1c)   b side (1c) also ???????

yellow lable black print   agent 00 soul                    a side (1A)  b side (1A)

 

WHIT DEMO SINGLE SIDED AGENT 00 SOUL          a side (1A)

[Guest]

you make the first lacquer 1-A. It goes into a box and gets sent to California;

you make the second lacquer, 1-B. It goes into a box and gets sent to Indiana

etc.

This happens at the first lacquer cutting. The time delay between 1-A and 1-L is therefore negligible. L does not 'replace' A: it's simultaneous.

I'm with you...anything with a matrix code ending in "1 A", "1 B", "1 C" etc are therefore first generation initial presses all manufactured around the same time...which therefore means what was written in the auction description is not actually true? It reads as if "1 F" may be the 6th press whereas the "F" is actually location specific.

Of course, this is all assumption...and it is still blowing a fierce gail outside at 2AM!

[Swifty]

Lets open the SS pub , The Queens Legs  , mines a Merlot chaser with a Carling !!

[Alan Bonthrone1]

Danse A La Musique.

[Guest]

Lets open the SS pub , The Queens Legs , mines a Merlot chaser with a Carling !!

Quick, Alan is in the chair and I'll have a packet of smokey bacon crisps...need something to take my mind off digging out other Columbia pressed/injected/moulded discs!

[Robbk]

These are the lable / numbers I have dave

 

yellow lable. black print. AGENT DOUBLE O SOUL   aside  (1a)  b side (1d)

yellow lable red print      AGENT DOUBLE O SOUL  a side (1b)  b side (1c)

red lable   black print      AGENT DOUBLE O SOUL  a side (1f)   b side (1d)

yellow lable red print      AGENT DOUBLE O SOUL  a side (1c)   b side (1c) also ???????

yellow lable black print   agent 00 soul                    a side (1A)  b side (1A)

 

WHIT DEMO SINGLE SIDED AGENT 00 SOUL          a side (1A)

I'm sure I've seen an original orange pressing, as well.

[Guest]

which therefore means what was written in the auction description is not actually true? It reads as if "1 F" may be the 6th press whereas the "F" is actually location specific.

After reading some of J.M's auction descriptions, I have the impression he does not check up very much, before writing about the record manufacturing side of things. Edited August 11, 2014 by Guest

[Cover-up]

I know a collector who admitted that for years he had this record, and in his head he'd been calling it "Agent Oooh Soul" instead of "Agent Double Oh Soul". 

 

Whilst finding this mildly amusing, in the context of this thread, it is positively side-splitting... 

[45cellar]

https://youtu.be/9NnobmrzJZE

 

>>> REFOSOUL <<<

 

The Soul Master, before he was "The Soul Master"

 

My copy of
 
AGENT OO-SOUL
(Agent Double-O-Soul)
 

 
ZTSC104309 1A VOCAL
ZTSC104314 1A INSTRUMENTAL
 
It is Yellow with Black writing although my scanner gives it darker shade

[45cellar]

My copies of

 

AGENT DOUBLE-O-SOUL

 

 

ZTSC104309 1A VOCAL

ZTSC104314 1D INSTRUMENTAL

 

It is Yellow with Black writing although my scanner gives it darker shade

[45cellar]

My copies of

 

AGENT DOUBLE-O-SOUL

 

 

ZTSC104309 1B VOCAL

ZTSC104314 1F INSTRUMENTAL

[Mal C]

I know a collector who admitted that for years he had this record, and in his head he'd been calling it "Agent Oooh Soul" instead of "Agent Double Oh Soul". 

 

Whilst finding this mildly amusing, in the context of this thread, it is positively side-splitting... 

that is funny.... remember Richard Serling announcing The Shaddows (With two D's) on his show, the 'Together Again' track on United Audio, for ages I thought two D's was a featured Singer... Dohhh

 

Mal

[Alan Bonthrone1]

Ashamed to admit I dont have said mentioned record.Hope nobody thinks I was being rude.All the best Alan.

[Guest turntableterra]

I'm sure I've seen an original orange pressing, as well.

eyes are not as good, the yellow with red print is the orange with red print, cheers rob

[Guest turntableterra]

After reading some of J.M's auction descriptions, I have the impression he does not check up very much, before writing about the record manufacturing side of things.

I was always under the impression that the location of the pressing was in the ZTSC PART OF THE STAMP, but I could be wrong

ZTSC being Columbia  in CHICAGO

ZTSB being Columbia  in NASHVILLE

ZTSP being Columbia  in NEW YORK

ZTSV being Columbia  in CHICAGO (post 1969)

 

ZTSP therefore = Z = 7INCH, T = TRANSCRIPTION,  S = 45RPM, P = NEW YORK

but you all knew this anyway.

 

please correct me if Im wrong,

[Garethx]

Not strictly the case. ZTSC was Columbia's code for custom presses–i.e. for outside clients–out of their Chicago office. They had no pressing plant there. The mastering studio was in Chicago, but the 45s mastered there could be cut at any of their plants. Similarly Nashville was an office/mastering studio but not a pressing plant. 

 

The Columbia pressing plants in the mid '60s were Pitman, NJ; Terra Haute, IN, Santa Maria, CA.

 

Early '60s included a Bridgeport CT plant and a Hollywood CA plant. These ran alongside the others for a time before they were closed or sold on.

Edited August 12, 2014 by garethx

[Robbk]

Not strictly the case. ZTSC was Columbia's code for custom presses–i.e. for outside clients–out of their Chicago office. They had no pressing plant there. The mastering studio was in Chicago, but the 45s mastered there could be cut at any of their plants. Similarly Nashville was an office/mastering studio but not a pressing plant. 

 

The Columbia pressing plants in the mid '60s were Pitman, NJ; Terra Haute, IN, Santa Maria, CA.

 

Early '60s included a Bridgeport CT plant and a Hollywood CA plant. These ran alongside the others for a time before they were closed or sold on.

Yes.  But didn't virtually ALL of those outside clients that used The Chicago Office come from The Upper Midwest (Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, Missouri and Iowa.  We were always told that almost all, if not all, were pressed at Terre Haute.

[Garethx]

Hi Robb

 

You're right. Simple geography would dictate that.

 

For those who are interested here's a link to the 45 Cat subject on Columbia Custom presses: 

 

https://www.45cat.com/45_forum_topic_view.php?ps=1&t=3804

 

So many weird anomalies that it's impossible to make hard and fast judgements about how these operations actually ran.

 

Fascinated to see the ZTSC presses of things like "Fingertips" and "Way Over There".

 

As far as ascertaining how to tell where your Columbia pressed 45s came from, the Pitman 45s often have a very faint machined P to the right of the matrix. Santa Maria 45s sometimes have a mark which looks like a hand drawn Question Mark in reverse at the same position. Sometimes this mark is on its side. 

 

My copy of Edwin Starr's "S.O.S." c/w "I Have Faith In You" has this mark. ZTSC-107499-1F stamped on SOS side, ZTSC-107549-1 (no letter code) etched–as opposed to stamped–on the IHFIY side.

Edited August 12, 2014 by garethx

[Chris L]

Have seen white demos with "OO Soul", think was posted here some time ago.

[El Corol]

So to clarify Dave, if someone has say 1A stamped on one side and 1D on the other then what exactly does that indicate?

 

The D is a later laquer or a different location, I got a little lost halfway through there!

[Garethx]

That combination is the first lacquer cut on one side, the fourth of the b-side track on the other.

 

The mastering studio would typically cut a number of lacquers at one time. Each had a unique code. Bear in mind that this coding system bears no real relation to the order in which the lacquers might be used to make metal parts.

[El Corol]

That combination is the first lacquer cut on one side, the fourth of the b-side track on the other.

 

The mastering studio would typically cut a number of lacquers at one time. Each had a unique code. Bear in mind that this coding system bears no real relation to the order in which the lacquers might be used to make metal parts.

Thanks for clarifying Gareth.

[Prophonics 2029]

I am sure my copy is red lettering and an orange label like and orange fruits skin.

Way down the line with E and F.

I put the tobaco packet behind to show what yellow is, they are both bleached with the flash and it also makes the tobaco yellow green.

Also noticed a raised 6 or an s just after the matrix stamp...more hand scribed.

Edited August 15, 2014 by Prophonics 2029

[45cellar]

As SOS / I HAVE FAITH IN YOU Has been mentioned here are the 2 Stock Copies that I have.

 

 

ZTSC107499-1D SOS

ZTSC107549  I HAVE FAITH IN YOU (etched–as opposed to stamped)

 

 

ZTSC107499-1F SOS

ZTSC107549-1  I HAVE FAITH IN YOU (etched–as opposed to stamped)

 

Plus it raises further questions, based on the above posts

 

Yes

AGENT OO-SOUL
(Agent Double-O-Soul) was Single Sided as a DEMO

 

All the other Ric-Tic DEMOs have both A and B sides

 

Except RT-109 Denying us the chance of "I HAVE FAITH IN YOU" as a White DEMO

They produced a double A Sided press with exactly the same Matrix Detail.

I assume that two Identical plates ZTSC107499-1B were made.

 

I wonder why that happened, I think all the known Golden World DEMOs have A and B Sides too

 

 

ZTSC107499-1B SOS

ZTSC107499-1B SOS

[Prophonics 2029]

I have both copys of I Have Faith In You...and I have never played SOS... I didn't even realise it was the B side. Lol l just noticed one side is etched and the other side is stamped of the normal red label one.

Edited August 20, 2014 by Prophonics 2029