How North Is North?

[Kevinkent]

Did Dave Godin get it wrong?

Here in Kent I've been told I come from 'up north' because I hail from Northampton. Was Dave Godin of the same mindset when he coined the phrase 'Northern Soul'?

 

Without a doubt Manchester's Twisted Wheel was the venue that everyone knew about in the late 60's - but it wasn't the only one.

I consider myself fortunate to have spent my early years discovering this music we love, call it old, rare, or even northern, soul in secret places dotted around the Northants countryside - what Ady Croasdell has recently refered to as a 'parallel scene'.

 

The Motown/Stax influence of the time meant that a multitude of city centre clubs were playing that type of sound generally, mixed in with chart stuff. I'm not talking about those, even if those associated with them now regard themselves as having some sort of soul heritage. I'm on about the special places and early nighters that played and broke unknown sounds to an eager and increasingly knowledgeable group of followers. The hidden places that you had to know about, and once attended had you hooked.

 

I'm getting a little tired of the TV trying to tell me that because I didn't work down t'pit and walk the cobbled streets to meet our lass at the Mill, then I wasn't part of the Northern Soul thing.

 

So,  PRIOR to it being tagged as 'Northern Soul' where were you getting your music fix? Did you consider yourself a northerner?

How North is was North?

 

 - Kev

Edited August 1, 2014 by KevinKent

[Guest Roddy]

i know where North is ! Kevin you are a southern softie

[Kevinkent]

i know where North is ! Kevin you are a southern softie

 

Tongs ya bas!

 

And I know what soft is Roddy.  I've been to Edinburgh, Edingboro, Edinborough Southern Scotland.

 

 - Kev

[Dave Rimmer]

I'm getting a little tired of the TV trying to tell me that because I didn't work down t'pit and walk the cobbled streets to meet our lass at the Mill, then I wasn't part of the Northern Soul thing.

 - Kev

 

So am I, and I was born and brought up within ten miles of Wigan !

[Guest in town Mikey]

When Bristol City play Plymouth they chant - you dirty Northern #####s to us

 

As you  and Ady say though. Other "parallel" scenes all over the shop. Where I grew up, Stroud, Gloucester, Cheltenham and of course Yate, had as active a 'scene' as most places in the Torch and Wigan years, I would say. When I was first introduced in the late 70s to nights in Stroud and Gloucester they'd be rammed with locals, often many heading off about 10pm to catch a coach to Wigan.  It would still be rammed with those of us left behind.

 

There was (is) a big collectors scene around there too, and many of the prominent collectors in that era are resonsible for playing stuff that is considered classic today.

 

It is well documented that Dave used the term to denote the different styles of music and generalised about up north. But I'd guess if Bristol City were playing in London, a lot of guys over that there London would have popped into his shop, same with any of the midlands teams. All of those are well north of Watford ergo....

Edited August 1, 2014 by in town Mikey

[Patto]

Prior to it being tagged Northern Soul i was 4 so got my musical fix from watching playschool.

Don't Know why you get fed up of the Pits Steelworks Cobbled Streets Thing. My Northern soul jorney started at late 70s youth club level in Doncaster.Most of my mates Dads worked in the Pit and other Industrial Jobs. I left school at 16 in 81 and went straight down the pit like most of my mates. Sorry but its a fact that the majority of employment in the North 1970s/80s involved working in Hard grim heavy industry and lots of soul fans lived for the weekend when they could take off the overalls and Leave the Shit behind at a Northern soul venue

Edited August 1, 2014 by Patto

[Steve S 60]

I don't think "Anywhere Other Than London Soul" would have had the same ring to it.

[Saxafone]

Did Dave Godin get it wrong?

Here in Kent I've been told I come from 'up north' because I hail from Northampton. Was Dave Godin of the same mindset when he coined the phrase 'Northern Soul'?

 

So,  PRIOR to it being tagged as 'Northern Soul' where were you getting your music fix? Did you consider yourself a northerner?

How North is was North?

 

 - Kev

Kev, whereabouts in Northampton, North or South ?

[Paul Conroy]

Anywhere past Durham is south to me lol 

[Kevinkent]

Prior to it being tagged Northern Soul i was 4 so got my musical fix from watching playschool.

Don't Know why you get fed up of the Pits Steelworks Cobbled Streets Thing. My Northern soul jorney started at late 70s youth club level in Doncaster.Most of my mates Dads worked in the Pit and other Industrial Jobs. I left school at 16 in 81 and went straight down the pit like most of my mates. Sorry but its a fact that the majority of employment in the North 1970s/80s involved working in Hard grim heavy industry and lots of soul fans lived for the weekend when they could take off the overalls and Leave the Shit behind at a Northern soul venue

 

Thing is, I'm not talking about the late 70's or 80's. By that time surely there were 'Northern Soul' nights held just about everywhere.  I'm talking about the formative years of the scene - and suggesting that venues other than those in the northern counties, played an important part in establishing the scene.

Working in local industry was the norm, but there weren't mines everywhere. Despite the media concept, working down a pit or in heavy industry was not a pre-requisite for getting in to the scene or even for going out and enjoying your weekend.

Around my way there was plenty of work in the late 60's. My weekend started Thursday night and ran into the next week - if I skipped a day or two off work and got the push I'd just go get another mundane job. Living for the weekend, but warming up throughout the week.

 

 - Kev

Edited August 1, 2014 by KevinKent

[Kevinkent]

Kev, whereabouts in Northampton, North or South ?

 

The middle lands of Northampton, Kettering, Corby.

[Mickjay33]

anything north of Watford is north according to the cd

[Spacehopper]

When Bristol City play Plymouth they chant - you dirty Northern #####s to us

 

and Ive lived in Bristol since about 95 and when I go to visit family in Norwich my Bristol workmates call me a northerner!

 

dean

[Stateside]

Although I was living up north, my first experience of what I would refer to as northern soul was at the Compass Club in Torquay in 1971 , my first holiday with the lads, when I was 18.

They weren't playing just northern soul, but I realise now, they were slipping them in here and there. I came away wanting

Jackie Wilson - Nothing But Blue Skies

Stairsteps - Stay Close To Me

Chuck Wood - Seven Days Too Long

Flamingos - Boogaloo Party

Olympics - Baby Do The Philly Dog

 

So it wasn't all up north!

 

Kev

[Steve Foran]

Bedford centre of all things Northern. Great venues like Bletsoe in the very early days. Some very good collections, regular soul nights like Kempston Rovers. Then the famous bus to Wigan run by a company called Souls believe it or not. I moved away in 79 but you still have Pottsy running Stewartby. Great lads like Andy Felts, Hammie, Tony Warot and loads more. What more could you want? And its north of Kent.

[Ady Croasdell]

The only other oddity in 68-70 I know of was the Portsmouth club that advertised in B&S but unlike our Northants /Beds scene it didn't seem to have links to the rest of the old soul world

[Ady Croasdell]

I think we're talking 71 at the latest. By 72 it was getting big in a lot of places

[Kevinkent]

Although I was living up north, my first experience of what I would refer to as northern soul was at the Compass Club in Torquay in 1971 , my first holiday with the lads, when I was 18.

They weren't playing just northern soul, but I realise now, they were slipping them in here and there. I came away wanting

Jackie Wilson - Nothing But Blue Skies

Stairsteps - Stay Close To Me

Chuck Wood - Seven Days Too Long

Flamingos - Boogaloo Party

Olympics - Baby Do The Philly Dog

 

So it wasn't all up north!

 

Kev

 

Funny thing is, when I first heard the term 'Northern Soul' I thought it was something new. Then when I heard the descriptions of it being 100mph dancers I thought yep I've got some of those.  So I split my record box into 'Northern' - Williams & Watson....A Quitter never Wins; Mamie Galore....It Ain't Necessary; Isleys....Tell me It's Just A Rumour; etc,etc,        and 'Others' - Joy Lovejoy....In Orbit; Hoagy Lands...Next In Line; Little Hank....Mr Bang Bang Man, etc.

Yes, I was confused about genres even back then!

 

- Kev

[Gogger]

When Bristol City play Plymouth they chant - you dirty Northern #####s to us

 

and Ive lived in Bristol since about 95 and when I go to visit family in Norwich my Bristol workmates call me a northerner!

 

dean

yes , but your not a real northener ,

[Kevinkent]

The only other oddity in 68-70 I know of was the Portsmouth club that advertised in B&S but unlike our Northants /Beds scene it didn't seem to have links to the rest of the old soul world

 

I've long held the belief Ady that lads in the Forces were largely responsible for spreading it around the country in the early days. Reckon there might be a fair few sailors that moved south (but how far south?) to Portsmouth.

 

 - Kev

[Frankie M]

Just reading this whilst eating my Hovis Butties . I tell you what its Grimm up north today !

[Steve S 60]

I've long held the belief Ady that lads in the Forces were largely responsible for spreading it around the country in the early days. Reckon there might be a fair few sailors that moved south (but how far south?) to Portsmouth.

 

 - Kev

 

Remember attending a few soul nights in Plymouth around 77/78 when I was based there.

[Mike Lofthouse]

When it comes to Soul music  - North is Chicago, Detroit and New York,  South is Memphis and New Orleans..........

[Graym]

I've long held the belief Ady that lads in the Forces were largely responsible for spreading it around the country in the early days. Reckon there might be a fair few sailors that moved south (but how far south?) to Portsmouth.

 

 - Kev

More likely those HELD AT Her Majesty's pleasure rather than IN HER SERVICE if you catch my drift !

[Mal C]

Kev, thats folk from the south not understanding that there is a place called the Midlands in the Uk... in my book the North doesn't start till you pass Nottingham, and well on route to Sheffield or Manchester...

[Guest manusf3a]

The middle lands of Northampton, Kettering, Corby.

Gods own county,from Corby meself,but between,my home town,kettering,wellinborough etc plus  the beds and bucks lot there were loads of rare soul nighter folk back then kev

[Steve Foran]

Gods own county,from Corby meself,but between,my home town,kettering,wellinborough etc plus  the beds and bucks lot there were loads of rare soul nighter folk back then kev

Yes we used to meet many from Corby and Kettering at North Park WM Club on a Saturday. Also the all dayers at Kettering Central Hall. Think that was the name. Ivan or Ivor with ginger hair. Various others Heather was my girlfriend for a while around 75. Think that was right cos I was 18 and she got me the Moments LP Sharp. Still got it.

[Kevinkent]

Gods own county,from Corby meself,but between,my home town,kettering,wellinborough etc plus  the beds and bucks lot there were loads of rare soul nighter folk back then kev

 

I was a Northampton boy (or surrounding villages) and used to live in fear of the Corby boys mate.  After getting engaged to a Corby girl I met at Wilby, I lived there in '70 - and that was despite a gang turning up at her address looking for me and in the process slicing the bottom of her brothers ear off. Things weren't always rosey on the scene eh?

I used to do Wilby, Earls Barton niter, the Tin Hat at Kettering, and God knows where else - just used to jump in a car that someone appeared with, and go. Would like to think I did Bletsoe and Kelmarsh but really have no idea. Didn't know where I was half the time!

 

The way it's looking so far on this thread, pre '71, the Northants/Beds area was a rare bastion of what became Northern Soul.  I thought there might have been other strong geographical areas of influence - but they all seem to have come later. I feel priveleged, but am happy to be corrected by anyone as that's the purpose of the thread. 

 

 - Kev

[Gogger]

Kev, thats folk from the south not understanding that there is a place called the Midlands in the Uk... in my book the North doesn't start till you pass Nottingham, and well on route to Sheffield or Manchester...

got to agree , when i drive south as soon as i leave yorkshire , i have left the north , and a cold shiver goes down my spine .

[Guest Bearsy]

The northern thing is all about accents. If you don't speak queens propa English ie- cockney sounding (south east) then your either a northerner or a bumpkin. I'm so lucky to be born and bred a man of Kent :-)

[Jerry Hipkiss]

 

The way it's looking so far on this thread, pre '71, the Northants/Beds area was a rare bastion of what became Northern Soul.  I thought there might have been other strong geographical areas of influence - but they all seem to have come later. I feel priveleged, but am happy to be corrected by anyone as that's the purpose of the thread. 

 

 - Kev

As I've said on another thread, many of the early "rare soul" classics were being played as new releases at the Blue Moon here in Cheltenham in 1966/67; the Chateau Impney (recently revived ) was an important early venue, and that's well south of Birmingham...Coppertops in Worcester was going well before the end of the sixties as well...

[Kevinkent]

As I've said on another thread, many of the early "rare soul" classics were being played as new releases at the Blue Moon here in Cheltenham in 1966/67; the Chateau Impney (recently revived ) was an important early venue, and that's well south of Birmingham...Coppertops in Worcester was going well before the end of the sixties as well...

 

Brilliant !  Cheers Jerry. Anyone/anywhere else?

 

 - Kev

[Ezzie Brown]

Although I was living up north, my first experience of what I would refer to as northern soul was at the Compass Club in Torquay in 1971 , my first holiday with the lads, when I was 18.

They weren't playing just northern soul, but I realise now, they were slipping them in here and there. I came away wanting

Jackie Wilson - Nothing But Blue Skies

Stairsteps - Stay Close To Me

Chuck Wood - Seven Days Too Long

Flamingos - Boogaloo Party

Olympics - Baby Do The Philly Dog

 

So it wasn't all up north!

 

Kev

i could have wrote this......maybe a year later tho....i still have my compass club membership card somewhere, there was another club in torquay at around the same time playing soul etc in one of 3 rooms,called..."the hideway " very apt...ez

[Paul R]

Remember attending a few soul nights in Plymouth around 77/78 when I was based there.

Len Hardy from Torpoint was the main DJ then, but there were many of us Northerners who where in the Navy, and based round there.  There were also many locals that used to frequent Wigan Yate etc. A good scene in Plymouth & Cornwall all through the late 70s & 80s.

 

Paul

[Kevinkent]

i could have wrote this......maybe a year later tho....i still have my compass club membership card somewhere, there was another club in torquay at around the same time playing soul etc in one of 3 rooms,called..."the hideway " very apt...ez

 

Me too. I visited the Compass Club during a holiday in '71. The tunes listed though were getting played all over Northants at clubs that I didn't really class as special but were catering to the current trends. Two I bought after hearing them at the Compass were Impressions....Check Out Your Mind, and East Of Eden...Ramsey Lewis(?). Not exactly Northern though.

 

 - Kev

[John Benson]

Coming from South Yorkshire, I guess I can't avoid coming under the 'northerner' group.

But as I left school in 1970 aged 16 (going on 17) I worked in a factory, but never considered it mundane or bleak as the TV programmes give the impression. Maybe it was because I was An apprentice learning a trade, I don't really know?

Anyway, the places I went to prior to and after leaving school, did play soul music, from new released Stax, Atlantic, Hot Wax, Invictus things mixed in with Motown and what I found out a little later, the older things - well 4 to 5 years older was a long time then!

They were things which had filtered out from the all nighters around the area, which would have been The Mojo, Twisted Wheel, and lots more which have been documented many times in the past.

It was just referred to as soul music as far as I recall, nothing else. Certainly not Northern, although I do remember Dave Godins articles using the 'Northern' term, I just assumed he was referring to people from the North, not particularly defining the musical style as such, although it obviously did happen later.

I remember my first venture to an all nighter being a disaster as a mate and myself decided to go to Crewe to Up The Junction - the night they decided there was no longer going to be any there! That would have been in 1972.

I can't recalling hearing the ' northern' term used out and about until after then, maybe during the next few years and that was mainly used by the younger kids who would then be hearing it after it started getting more popular / widely played after Wigan started getting in the papers etc.

But it's quite a few years back now, so maybe others remember it differently?

[barney]

go on then , you can have your claim to Northern Soul , your just as bad as them soft southern shandy swilling nancy boys from Nottingham ,who claim Robin Hood was from there , but every man and his dog knows he was a true northerner from gods county Yorkshire ,.

I mean cant have us thick northern puddings doing owt reight can we ffs

[Guest in town Mikey]

Country bumpkins both places :-)

Fair enough, guilty as charged.

 

Funny thing is we Kent people say Portsmouth is West Country lol

Now you've gone too far my babber

 

The northern thing is all about accents. If you don't speak queens propa English ie- cockney sounding (south east) then your either a northerner or a bumpkin. I'm so lucky to be born and bred a man of Kent :-)

 

And this confirms it. Delusional

 

 

[Robbk]

Weren't there Northern Soul clubs in Glasgow?  Wouldn't they be farther north than any in England, and even those in Edinburgh?  Were there any NS clubs in The Shetlands?

 

 If Scotland secedes, The Shetlands, Orkneys and Faroes should be federated with Iceland, to lower the % of alcoholics in that nation's population.

[Guest Rob Alias]

It is a meaningless question. The music didn't originate 'Up North', so perhaps a more pertinent question might be, 'Which part of the United States (US) is of most relevance? 

 

   

[John Benson]

I think the original question was aimed along the lines of whereabouts in the country that type of music was getting played - before it was actually known as northern?

[Guest Rob Alias]

give it a rest please 

 

the idea is that you take part in the discussions not stir trouble up at almost every opportunity

 

Sorry Mike but my aim was not (as you suggest) to 'stir up trouble'. Maybe your 'Northern Soul' sensitivity level is set a little too high?

 

 

[Chalky]

anything north of Watford is north according to the cd

That'd be Watford Gap, not the town.

[Guest Bearsy]

Different sound in demand from those "northern" speaking lads to the London/south scene at the time. So if he is like me and many others from the South anyone that don't have a southern accent is a "northerner" it matters not if your from northants, Manchester, Yorkshire, Birmingham your still a northerner but I would guess it was mostly aimed at the manchester/ Yorkshire sounding accents frequenting his shop as I'm sure I read somewhere when the northern football fans coming to London to support their teams looking for a certain sound. Was Dave Godin a Londoner ?

[Kevinkent]

Different sound in demand from those "northern" speaking lads to the London/south scene at the time. So if he is like me and many others from the South anyone that don't have a southern accent is a "northerner" it matters not if your from northants, Manchester, Yorkshire, Birmingham your still a northerner but I would guess it was mostly aimed at the manchester/ Yorkshire sounding accents frequenting his shop as I'm sure I read somewhere when the northern football fans coming to London to support their teams looking for a certain sound. Was Dave Godin a Londoner ?

 

Paul, born in Peckham (but don't know if it was on the Peckham North Estate), later lived in Bexleyheath.

 

Hope you're keeping well matey.

 

 - Kev

[Guest manusf3a]

Yes we used to meet many from Corby and Kettering at North Park WM Club on a Saturday. Also the all dayers at Kettering Central Hall. Think that was the name. Ivan or Ivor with ginger hair. Various others Heather was my girlfriend for a while around 75. Think that was right cos I was 18 and she got me the Moments LP Sharp. Still got it.

 

Yes we used to meet many from Corby and Kettering at North Park WM Club on a Saturday. Also the all dayers at Kettering Central Hall. Think that was the name. Ivan or Ivor with ginger hair. Various others Heather was my girlfriend for a while around 75. Think that was right cos I was 18 and she got me the Moments LP Sharp. Still got it.

you mean Ivan mte   that ithe lad with ginger hair,back and about on the scene again now I am glad to say.Do you remeber the other ginger lad from Corby,long hair called Wilky a good mate and a brilliant lad.a

[Guest Bearsy]

Paul, born in Peckham (but don't know if it was on the Peckham North Estate), later lived in Bexleyheath.

 

Hope you're keeping well matey.

 

 - Kev

You all good thanks Kev hope you and Alan are too ;-)

If he was from Peckham and a south east Londoner then yep I would bet money on it he would refer to "northerners" as either a Lancashire or Yorkshire accent predominately.

[Kevinkent]

You all good thanks Kev hope you and Alan are too ;-)

If he was from Peckham and a south east Londoner then yep I would bet money on it he would refer to "northerners" as either a Lancashire or Yorkshire accent predominately.

 

Alan? Who the fcuk is Alan you stirring sod?

Still straight as a die and off to VaVa Voom tomorrow with Pam. Her first do for quite some time.

 

Now, anyone else got any Southern or Midland locations for pre '71 Northern Soul (oops!)

 

 - Kev

 

Edited August 1, 2014 by KevinKent

[Geeselad]

North's a state of mind rather than a geographical location. 

[dthedrug]

 Hi all this is a good question a bit like is London the same as it was 30 years ago, well it ain't. did you know that the Cockney speak, will be gone in 1 generation, in fact the there will be no cockneys in 20 years fact, here's a fact for you to be a true Cockney you have mum dad & yourself all born within the sounds of Bow Bells, you all no that I'm sure, did you know that people from West Ham are not Cockneys? & people from Chelsea are? look yourself on a map you will note the church with the Bow Bells has been long gone, and the church in Bow has no bells, even if it had it's the wrong church. 

The famous mix of  Yiddish Romany Irish & criminal talk out the side of the mouth with a whisper, using rimming slang to fool the police that makes the Cockney speak, has already impacted the under 5 year olds in certain areas of the capital, we are all aware of the new talk that started in London some 15 years ago made up from the London accent mingled with patter from Jamaica Australia & gangster talk from the Afro- America ghettos, IN IT! 

In the West Midlands the Black Country language is going the same way as London, this mean that in a few years time the North South divide will not be the Watford Gap, as it stands today the new accent we call London Country has reached just south of Coventry & most of Peterborough speak it   , to my ears Stafford sounds northern rather than midland as does Nottingham "me ducks"

getting back to this thread my mother was born in Shepard's Bush area of London, she had very right wing views that existed in the Irish community of working class West London in the pre war years,  all black people were known as Darkies the North started at the top end of exit out of London on the A5, like many Londoners we she moved to the new towns after the war, places like Harlow Stevenage consisted of 80% Londoners, she moved to Letchworth Garden City.  Coming from a broken home as I did I too control of my life at the age of 8 years, not going to school stealing and being anti social by the time I was 12 after stabbing a teacher I was moved to different kids homes in the North, this being so the North started when I left my home town,  

Years later going to places like the Twisted Wheel really meant you were going north, trust me when I say you did not hear Northern soul in the South unless it was put on by people who went north, The Birds nest is the only true club when the Torch was running and in Hitchin Mick Smith Billy Mac & myself played Rare Soul in the Dive bar, at that time even Bedford was north as was Leighton Buzzard I felt it was more north than south in the Black Horse & Bletsoe. & that is where the north starts if you are into Rare Northern Soul  IN IT THOE!......  DAVE K has spoken!