Al Green "don't Leave Me" 1St Hot Line Music Journal Issue ?

[Tlscapital]

Didn't know there was a press prior to the Bell records distributed one for Al Green's first record. Got this (shame in not the best shape) and I guess it's not common to many people out there. Or is it ? Wasn't to me until this;

 

 

 

And then that means that the other stuffs on Hot Line Music Journal were prior to the small run distributed by Bell records... I always wrongly assumed it was the other around for some reason...

 

 

Anyone with more to say about this ?

 

Edited July 31, 2014 by tlscapital

[Robbk]

Was Hot Line Music Journal located in Memphis?  I had originally thought that Palmer James was the owner of Detroit's Palmer Records.  But, I seem to remember later learning that Palmer was the owner's last name.  So, maybe Palmer James had no Detroit connection.  I know that Al Greene was from The South, so I was surprised when I thought his first record was on a Detroit label.  

 

"Back Up Train" sounds like a "Southern" recording (Memphis sounds likely), and NOTHING like a Detroit recording.  I'm pretty sure that Greene lived in The South in 1964 and 1965.

[Tlscapital]

Was Hot Line Music Journal located in Memphis?  I had originally thought that Palmer James was the owner of Detroit's Palmer Records.  But, I seem to remember later learning that Palmer was the owner's last name.  So, maybe Palmer James had no Detroit connection.  I know that Al Greene was from The South, so I was surprised when I thought his first record was on a Detroit label.  

 

"Back Up Train" sounds like a "Southern" recording (Memphis sounds likely), and NOTHING like a Detroit recording.  I'm pretty sure that Greene lived in The South in 1964 and 1965.

Yes but this then... followed by this... 

then this with Al's "don't leave me" on flip ! 

 

At age 12 Green moved with his family to Grand Rapids, Michigan, a city about 180 miles west of Detroit. Four years later, he and several school friends formed a pop group, the Creations. In 1967 the group, renamed Al Green and the Soulmates, recorded the pop hit "Back Up Train" for the Hotline label; the song rose to number five on the R&B charts and number 41 on the Billboard charts. Despite the song's success the group did not score a follow-up hit and disbanded soon after. (https://www.answers.com/topic/al-green)

Edited July 30, 2014 by tlscapital

[Tlscapital]

Was Hot Line Music Journal located in Memphis?  I had originally thought that Palmer James was the owner of Detroit's Palmer Records.  But, I seem to remember later learning that Palmer was the owner's last name.  So, maybe Palmer James had no Detroit connection.  I know that Al Greene was from The South, so I was surprised when I thought his first record was on a Detroit label.  

 

"Back Up Train" sounds like a "Southern" recording (Memphis sounds likely), and NOTHING like a Detroit recording.  I'm pretty sure that Greene lived in The South in 1964 and 1965.

I mean, I do think that the Hot Line Music Journal sessions could have all been from Detroit. Even though 'back up train' does sounds very south-full indeed. And so I don't believe either that Palmer James is Palmer record's owner. Palmer James was friend with Al Green and he might just have "lended" him some tapes with 'hot wire' on to re-record it a years later or so for the album 'back up train' on HLMJ. My query is about this not Bell record distributed release. It is "Bell sound" matrix plant stamped and so has everything right (legit) about it but didn't know it existed and so brings up the question; is it rare or known about ? Have I miss an episode in that first guy's record as named artist ? It being a hit for one side and had international releases through 5 year as the"B" side (don't leave me) makes this intriguing to me. And 'don't leave me' was one of the first record that got me into this "dark side" of soul records hunting, so anyone with clues about what this issue actually is ?

[Robbk]

I apologise.  I was NOT even attempting to answer your question.  I was selfishly asking one of my own (which I have not had answered for many, many years.

 

One thing I CAN tell you is that that Bell record you've scanned was from Bell's very late period (1970-72?), after Colgems had bought Bell Records. It was released several years AFTER Greene's original Hot Line Music Journal records came out.  I don't think that the "Al Green" on Bell is rare.  I have seen it many times.  It may have been Bell's attempt to cash in on Al Greene's Hi Records' success, after he had his first Hi hits, as a re-release of the Hot Line original recordings, which had been leased by Bell when they got the distribution rights, during the mid '60s.  Whether or not those lease rights had lapsed before then is an interesting question.

 

With the song "Hot Wire" recorded by People's Choice on Grand Land and Palmer Records, AND Al Green(e) having also recorded that song, AND Al Greene having been from Grand Rapids, Michigan, AND "Grand Land" must have stood for Grand Rapids,  AND I now remember that Hot Line Music Journal WAS located in Grand Rapids, AND Palmerton Music was Palmer James' personal music publishing company AND it was the same for Palmer Records, - I'm beginning to think that those rumours that Palmer James WAS, after all, the owner of Palmer Records.

[Tlscapital]

I apologise.  I was NOT even attempting to answer your question.  I was selfishly asking one of my own (which I have not had answered for many, many years.

 

One thing I CAN tell you is that that Bell record you've scanned was from Bell's very late period (1970-72?), after Colgems had bought Bell Records. It was released several years AFTER Greene's original Hot Line Music Journal records came out.  I don't think that the "Al Green" on Bell is rare.  I have seen it many times.  It may have been Bell's attempt to cash in on Al Greene's Hi Records' success, after he had his first Hi hits, as a re-release of the Hot Line original recordings, which had been leased by Bell when they got the distribution rights, during the mid '60s.  Whether or not those lease rights had lapsed before then is an interesting question.

 

With the song "Hot Wire" recorded by People's Choice on Grand Land and Palmer Records, AND Al Green(e) having also recorded that song, AND Al Greene having been from Grand Rapids, Michigan, AND "Grand Land" must have stood for Grand Rapids,  AND I now remember that Hot Line Music Journal WAS located in Grand Rapids, AND Palmerton Music was Palmer James' personal music publishing company AND it was the same for Palmer Records, - I'm beginning to think that those rumours that Palmer James WAS, after all, the owner of Palmer Records.

You're right, the Bell release is very common and not interesting to own unless you want 'hot wire' by Al Green(e) on 45 while the People's Choice cut is out there on 45. But I don't know who might that be today !? I was just making the connection between those songs and people involved in them through time and maybe therefore place; in Michigan at least. So maybe not Detroit and still... not south defo. Now I'm starting to wonder since that Mickey & Ernie 'baby I'm in love' on HLJM 1227 is prior to the not Bell distributed HLJM 1233 and this first one sounds more early 7T's to my ears. So it could be James Palmer trying to cash in on the Bell release (1972) and that would make this one a "second issue" rather than a first one. But with less distribution capacity, the success of such a release is competition-less. And those HLJM have that cheaper "home made" label design to them.

Edited July 30, 2014 by tlscapital

[Robbk]

You're right, the Bell release is very common and not interesting to own unless you want 'hot wire' by Al Green(e) on 45 while the People's Choice cut is out there on 45. But I don't know who might that be today !? I was just making the connection between those songs and people involved in them through time and maybe therefore place; in Michigan at least. So maybe not Detroit and still... not south defo. Now I'm starting to wonder since that Mickey & Ernie 'baby I'm in love' on HLJM 1227 is prior to the not Bell distributed HLJM 1233 and this first one sounds more early 7T's to my ears. So it could be James Palmer trying to cash in on the Bell release (1972) and that would make this one a "second issue" rather than a first one. But with less distribution capacity, the success of such a release is competition-less. And those HLJM have that cheaper "home made" label design to them.

I'll be curious to read the answers of anyone with further information.  If we could read the pressing codes etched or engraved onto the runouts, it might give us clues to when they were all pressed.  

[Tlscapital]

I'll be curious to read the answers of anyone with further information.  If we could read the pressing codes etched or engraved onto the runouts, it might give us clues to when they were all pressed.  

It just 1233A on 'A' side etched in twice and 1233B on 'B' side etched in twice with Bell Sound stamped & ARP stamped on both sides.

[Roburt]

I seem to recall that the label took it's name from a local music scene magazine (hence the strange name).

Here's more info on the releases on the label in an old Soulful Detroit thread ...........

ac.us/adf/messages/178308/180645.html?1223671085

[Robbk]

I seem to recall that the label took it's name from a local music scene magazine (hence the strange name).

Here's more info on the releases on the label in an old Soulful Detroit thread ...........

ac.us/adf/messages/178308/180645.html?1223671085

There's no link on your post (I can't get there).  As a 14 year veteran of Soulful Detroit with almost 13,000 posts, I'm sure I read that thread, originally, and probably participated in it.  But, as my memory isn't all it used to be, I'd like to look at the thread again.

[Tlscapital]

I seem to recall that the label took it's name from a local music scene magazine (hence the strange name).

Here's more info on the releases on the label in an old Soulful Detroit thread ...........

ac.us/adf/messages/178308/180645.html?1223671085

could you provide us with the full link please, cheers.

[Robbk]

I did a search on Soulful Detroit Forum Archives and found a thread about Al Green(e) and Hot Line Music Journal Records.  The basic thread information on those 2 subjects was provided by my old friend Ian Melia.  He's a good guy.  BUT, he is not a professional researcher.  He takes things he reads on The Internet, and doesn't research them, to verify.  Also, sometimes he takes things out of context.  There were several errors in what he wrote about Al Greene's group history.  Off the top of my head, he stated that Al Greene and his Hot Line group also recorded as The Creations' cuts on Zodiac (who we know were really Bridges, Knight and Eaton.  So, I'd take a lot of what he wrote on that thread with a grain of salt.

 

But, I look forward to the link, in case it was a different thread.  I'll be curious to find out if Palmer James was also a group member in Greene's back-up group.  Curtis Rogers probably was.

[Tlscapital]

I did a search on Soulful Detroit Forum Archives and found a thread about Al Green(e) and Hot Line Music Journal Records.  The basic thread information on those 2 subjects was provided by my old friend Ian Melia.  He's a good guy.  BUT, he is not a professional researcher.  He takes things he reads on The Internet, and doesn't research them, to verify.  Also, sometimes he takes things out of context.  There were several errors in what he wrote about Al Greene's group history.  Off the top of my head, he stated that Al Greene and his Hot Line group also recorded as The Creations' cuts on Zodiac (who we know were really Bridges, Knight and Eaton.  So, I'd take a lot of what he wrote on that thread with a grain of salt.

 

But, I look forward to the link, in case it was a different thread.  I'll be curious to find out if Palmer James was also a group member in Greene's back-up group.  Curtis Rogers probably was.

Yes, I read that too but way too fancy IMHO, even the dates can't match the story. Al Green's Creations if they were existing, I read that few times so could be, must have no recordings and be another group than the Creations on Zodiac. Oh and Curtis Rogers is credited as composer in the 'baby, I'm in love' by Mickey and Ernie on HLMJ 1227 !

Edited July 31, 2014 by tlscapital

[Sebastian]

I think it's this thread that Roburt tried to link to:

 

https://faac.us/adf/messages/178308/180645.html?1223671085

[Corbett80]

Pretty sure there is a deep 45 rarity too by a Roger Love on this label...can anyone confirm?

[Guest Dave Turner]

I did a search on Soulful Detroit Forum Archives and found a thread about Al Green(e) and Hot Line Music Journal Records.  The basic thread information on those 2 subjects was provided by my old friend Ian Melia.  He's a good guy.  BUT, he is not a professional researcher.  He takes things he reads on The Internet, and doesn't research them, to verify.  Also, sometimes he takes things out of context.  There were several errors in what he wrote about Al Greene's group history.  Off the top of my head, he stated that Al Greene and his Hot Line group also recorded as The Creations' cuts on Zodiac (who we know were really Bridges, Knight and Eaton.  So, I'd take a lot of what he wrote on that thread with a grain of salt.

 

But, I look forward to the link, in case it was a different thread.  I'll be curious to find out if Palmer James was also a group member in Greene's back-up group.  Curtis Rogers probably was.

 

Robb, in Al Green's autobiography "Take Me To The River" there are quite a few references to them being the Creations on Zodiac. Also Palmer James was a member of the group. Al Green(e), Palmer James, Curtis Rogers, Gene Mason & Lee Virgins

 

"I think I gotta name for the group, The four of them turned to me. The Creations"

 

"We were the Creations, one dynamite bundle of pure talent"

 

We got a recording contract, the label was called Zodiac. Zodiac records would cover the expenses for us to cut some sides in their studio. We'd cover the expenses for Zodiac to sell our sides"

 

"With the Creations I cut a few sides in some run down studio on 28th Street, Grand Rapids"

 

"And in a couple of weeks just like the Zodiac people promised, Lee got a box full of singles in the mail.  have to admit it really was a magical moment as we all stood around holding up handfuls of black platters and listening to ourselves over & over again" ... this would have been Footsteps / A Dream (Zodiac 1005)

 

Al was young, I think in his early teens when the Greene family moved to Grand Rapids

Edited July 31, 2014 by Dave Turner

[Robbk]

Robb, in Al Green's autobiography "Take Me To The River" there are quite a few references to them being the Creations on Zodiac. Also Palmer James was a member of the group. Al Green(e), Palmer James, Curtis Rogers, Gene Mason & Lee Virgins

 

"I think I gotta name for the group, The four of them turned to me. The Creations"

 

"We were the Creations, one dynamite bundle of pure talent"

 

We got a recording contract, the label was called Zodiac. Zodiac records would cover the expenses for us to cut some sides in their studio. We'd cover the expenses for Zodiac to sell our sides"

 

"With the Creations I cut a few sides in some run down studio on 28th Street, Grand Rapids"

 

"And in a couple of weeks just like the Zodiac people promised, Lee got a box full of singles in the mail.  have to admit it really was a magical moment as we all stood around holding up handfuls of black platters and listening to ourselves over & over again" ... this would have been Footsteps / A Dream (Zodiac 1005)

 

Al was young, I think in his early teens when the Greene family moved to Grand Rapids

I believe Fred Bridges on this one. He's stated many times that his Brothers of Soul sang the songs that were released as The Creations.  Perhaps Al Green and his group were slated to sing Bridges', Knight's and Eaton's two songs for Zodiac Records, and Ric Williams didn't like their singing, but liked Fred's Brothers of Soul on their demo of their song, so he had them cut it at the session, and used that better version?

 

If I remember correctly. Fred said that they recorded those 2 cuts at United Sound, in Detroit.  I believe that, given the sound of the musicians on those 2 cuts.  Clearly, they included several Motown regulars, and probably several of the regular non-Motown guys, George McGregor, Melvin Davis, Don Davis, McKinley Jackson, etc.  I doubt that Hot Line recorded Al Green's group at United Sound.  I don't hear the regular Detroit session players on "Back Up Train" and "Don't Leave Me".  "A Dream" and "Footsteps" were both written by Bridges, Knight and Eaton, and The Creations sound like them.  It's possible that Green's group DID sign a contract with Ric Williams, but also likely that they didn't get a release.  We've seen many, many cases in which a given group was slated to record certain songs in a session, and the producer didn't like their first few tries at it, and substituted a different lead, or, more often, a different group, and went on with the session.  That's how Edwin Starr sang "I'll love You Forever" instead of The Holidays' lead singer.

Edited August 1, 2014 by RobbK

[Soul-slider]

Years ago I saw a 'Detroit Soul' CD, can't remember the title and it could have been a home made job but Al Green was featured on it with 'A Lover's Hideaway' (HLMJ).

I have most of his HLMJ 45's, but, the 'Back Up Train' L.P I have is on USA Bell with a different cover to the HLMJ release. 

[Tlscapital]

I believe Fred Bridges on this one. He's stated many times that his Brothers of Soul sang the songs that were released as The Creations.  Perhaps Al Green and his group were slated to sing Bridges', Knight's and Eaton's two songs for Zodiac Records, and Ric Williams didn't like their singing, but liked Fred's Brothers of Soul on their demo of their song, so he had them cut it at the session, and used that better version?

I agree, the Creations did always sounds a lot like the Brothers of Soul to my ears. The Zodiac 45 sounds rather mid to late '68 to my ears. So if we can agree that Al Greene 'backup train' was out late 1967, by early 1968 it was climbing the R&B chart in the USA to reach N°5, the UK Stateside release has 1967 as printing year, I doubt that Al Greene would change his now known name and "hide" his voice trade mark after a relative success to record even under another name and to pass by incognito. Doesn't make sense to me. Lot of those people were maybe interconnected and might have done work together at times, and then did some session trial of some sort, but a name like the Creations for a band is much too common to state that Al Green's Creations (pre-Soul Mates) are the same group because on Zodiac a band bares the same name. And indeed we read a lot about the Zodiac 45 on Al Green's discographies. At the same time we all know how easy an hoax spreads like...

Edited August 1, 2014 by tlscapital

[Mrtag]

Didn't know there was a press prior to the Bell records distributed one for Al Green's first record. Got this (shame in not the best shape) and I guess it's not common to many people out there. Or is it ? Wasn't to me until this;

 

Scan10003.jpg Capture d’écran 2014-07-30 à 15.10.33.png

 

And then that means that the other stuffs on Hot Line Music Journal were prior to the small run distributed by Bell records... I always wrongly assumed it was the other around for some reason...

 

Capture d’écran 2014-07-30 à 15.09.01.png

 

Anyone with more to say about this ?

 

I think this has been known about on Hotline mj for some time as I have the blue copy kicking around and recall having it for quite a few years! Never seen the white one is it still Amy/Bell distributed?

[Andy Rix]

- I'm beginning to think that those rumours that Palmer James WAS, after all, the owner of Palmer Records.

 

I tried doing some research into this in the 90s with the help of Marilyn Bond ... I was trying to locate the masters as I thought they would be of interest to Ady C

 

I didn't get too far ... what I did learn was that Palmer was owned by the Handleman Company who were major players in the record & tape marketing/distribution business. As far as I could establish Palmer Records was 'managed' by Johnny Kaplan, a long time big wheel at Handleman. I was unable to speak to him as he had died and I was never able to get hold of his widow.

 

I did speak to some Exec at Handleman but they knew nothing about Palmer Records ... I guess too much time had passed and nobody from that era who might have known was still around.

 

I did speak to Joey Welz, a Palmer recording artist, who confirmed my understanding

 

Andy

[Guest Dave Turner]

I agree that the Zodiac Creations are most likely The Brothers of Soul.

 

However, is Al Green bullshitting in his autobiography when he states ..

 

"And in a couple of weeks just like the Zodiac people promised, Lee got a box full of singles in the mail.  I have to admit it really was a magical moment as we all stood around holding up handfuls of black platters and listening to ourselves over & over again, reading the label and smelling the fresh vinyl"

 

"The Creations even got played a few times on the local radio stations and word got back to us that we were getting spins as far away as Chicago and Cincinnati" 

 

I think they'd have known when listening that they weren't listening to themselves. Maybe these were demos that never got released?

Edited August 1, 2014 by Dave Turner

[Tlscapital]

I agree that the Zodiac Creations are most likely The Brothers of Soul.

 

However, is Al Green bullshitting in his autobiography when he states ..

 

"And in a couple of weeks just like the Zodiac people promised, Lee got a box full of singles in the mail.  I have to admit it really was a magical moment as we all stood around holding up handfuls of black platters and listening to ourselves over & over again, reading the label and smelling the fresh vinyl"

 

"The Creations even got played a few times on the local radio stations and word got back to us that we were getting spins as far away as Chicago and Cincinnati" 

 

I think they'd have known when listening that they weren't listening to themselves. Maybe these were demos that never got released?

I have to admit it's rather strange to understand if this is really word by word what Al Green said; like the very first time he and the others saw their work on vinyl. And like how they had to play and play the 45 over and over again. But then this would mean that the Creations on Zodiac would be pre-dating 'backup train' and that Al Green's participation in those Creations would be just in the harmonies. Unless he left the "Green signature" aside for the lead on those two songs. It is possible but then the Zodiac 1005 is mid to late 1967 since HLMJ is late 1967. That could be a fit. Better than the demo theory. It's against my belief, but facts are stronger ! 

Edited August 1, 2014 by tlscapital

[Tlscapital]

I think this has been known about on Hotline mj for some time as I have the blue copy kicking around and recall having it for quite a few years! Never seen the white one is it still Amy/Bell distributed?

No it's not, but is it prior to the Bell distributed HLMJ or contemporary to the USA Bell 1972 issue with 'hotwire' b/w 'don't leave me ?

[Sebastian]

It is possible but then the Zodiac 1005 is mid to late 1967 since HLMJ is late 1967.

 

If it's of any help:

 

ZODIAC 1005 is mentioned on the "R&B Spotlights Chart" in an issue of Billboard Magazine from 9 September 1967.

 

The "Back Up Train" / "Don't Leave Me" 45 on HOTLINE is mentioned for the first time in the 18 November 1967 issue and is reviewed in the 2 December 1967 issue.

[Mrtag]

No it's not, but is it prior to the Bell distributed HLMJ or contemporary to the USA Bell 1972 issue with 'hotwire' b/w 'don't leave me ?

 Thanks for the info!! Must be quite an early release! Atb John.

[Guest Dave Turner]

I have to admit it's rather strange to understand if this is really word by word what Al Green said; like the very first time he and the others saw their work on vinyl. And like how they had to play and play the 45 over and over again. But then this would mean that the Creations on Zodiac would be pre-dating 'backup train' and that Al Green's participation in those Creations would be just in the harmonies. Unless he left the "Green signature" aside for the lead on those two songs. It is possible but then the Zodiac 1005 is mid to late 1967 since HLMJ is late 1967. That could be a fit. Better than the demo theory. It's against my belief, but facts are stronger ! 

 

Yeah, it really is a puzzler and why I posted those particular quotes from the book. It really comes across the excitement of holding and listening to one's first record.

 

In the book Al states that it was late 1967 when they dumped the name The Creations and took a walk from Zodiac. At the same time becoming Al Greene and the Soul Mates which ties in with Sebastian's post. So Creations were prior to The Soul Mates and "Back Up Train".

Edited August 1, 2014 by Dave Turner

[Robbk]

I am sorry to contradict people who say there is "evidence" to the opposite of my ears and knowledge of what went down, generally during the mid-to-late '60s in Chicago and Detroit.  And, I agree that Al Greene's description of the joy of seeing his own work in a professional state for the first time has "the ring of truth" in it. But, I have never heard of Fred Bridges being anything but totally honest, and never heard of his memory failing.  In addition, I've heard from several other sources, that The Brothers of Soul were singing on the 2 Creations' Zodiac cuts, and of course, THEY (not Greene and his group) were the writers.  Both songs sound like their writing, and the instrumentals sound like their Detroit-recorded cuts.  

 

My best guess is that Ric Williams liked Green's group sound, signed them to a contract, and booked a recording session.  They got a pair of songs from Bridges, Knight and Eaton, who had written many songs for Zodiac, Aquarius, Boo Records for Williams.  In rehearsals, Williams found that the young group wasn't ready.  He decided he didn't like their sound on the 2 songs.  Bridges, as co-producer was at the session, as probably were also knight and Eaton.  Williams had heard and liked The Brothers of Soul on their demos of the songs.  Maybe he erased Green's leads on both songs and kept the kid group's background vocals, and just replaced the leads with Bridges on one side, and Knight ,(or was it Eaton) on the other.  If so, he would have paid the kid group for their background work on the session, and sent them copies of "their" record, as they participated on it, and it was their first professional release.

 

It's a plausible theory.  But, really, I don't hear the "Back Up Train" group on those 2 cuts, and I DO hear the Brothers of Soul on it.

[Premium Stuff]

I think folk seem to be missing the point here.

 

There was a group called the Creations - later to become Al Greene and the Soul Mates - who recorded on the tiny Grand Rapids Zodiac label.

 

There was a completely different group called the Creations who recorded on the totally different Zodiac label which was owned by Ric Williams and was essentially a Chicago label, albeit that many releases were done in Detroit. The Zodiac recording "Footsteps" / "A Dream" by the second Creations was not them on the recording but the Brothers of Soul.

 

Most people seem to be assuming that there was one Creations group that recorded on the one Zodiac label - but there were two groups and two labels which were unrelated. That is why you are all confused 

 

Cheers

 

Richard

Edited August 1, 2014 by Premium Stuff

[Robbk]

AHA!  THAT is why Green referred to the records being "Black".  I DO remember a black '60s  Zodiac label (just didn't remember it having been from Grand Rapids.  I also seem to remember a black one from New York, and a black one from The East Coast from the 1950s.

[Tlscapital]

I think folk seem to be missing the point here.

 

There was a group called the Creations - later to become Al Greene and the Soul Mates - who recorded on the tiny Grand Rapids Zodiac label.

 

There was a completely different group called the Creations who recorded on the totally different Zodiac label which was owned by Ric Williams and was essentially a Chicago label, albeit that many releases were done in Detroit. The Zodiac recording "Footsteps" / "A Dream" by the second Creations was not them on the recording but the Brothers of Soul.

 

Most people seem to be assuming that there was one Creations group that recorded on the one Zodiac label - but there were two groups and two labels which were unrelated. That is why you are all confused 

 

Cheers

 

Richard

Right, but what record by the Creations (alias Al Green & Soul Mates) on the other Zodiac label ?

[Premium Stuff]

Right, but what record by the Creations (alias Al Green & Soul Mates) on the other Zodiac label ?

 

I don't think it has ever surfaced 

[Robbk]

I don't think it has ever surfaced 

No WONDER I've never seen it.  Well, if Green and the group had several boxes of them, how come NOT EVEN ONE has ever surfaced?  How did a 1966, or '67 record label owner in Grand Rapids not know about Ric Williams' Chicago Zodiac, who had been recording around half of their cuts, to that point, in Detroit?   I still have pertinent unanswered questions about Grand Rapids' Zodiac Records.

[Tlscapital]

They might have cut a demo (not to the promotional stage) and got some copies for a Zodiac record company that maybe never past that stage and heard people about the thing; "The Creations even got played a few times on the local radio stations and word got back to us that we were getting spins as far away as Chicago and Cincinnati" thinking it was them getting the airplays while it actually was… a belief then became a hoax through misbelief… the rest became… discography passed on and on and on… Maybe ?

[Premium Stuff]

No WONDER I've never seen it.  Well, if Green and the group had several boxes of them, how come NOT EVEN ONE has ever surfaced?  How did a 1966, or '67 record label owner in Grand Rapids not know about Ric Williams' Chicago Zodiac, who had been recording around half of their cuts, to that point, in Detroit?   I still have pertinent unanswered questions about Grand Rapids' Zodiac Records.

 

One theory I have heard is that Al Greene was confused/mistaken about the label/recoding company name and that the label Zodiac has been quoted because the other group also called the Creations recorded on Zodiac (Ric Williams' Zodiac). This assumes there was no Zodiac label out of Grand Rapids. Or possibly the truth is that what has been said in the previous post might be the case, which assumes there was a Grand Rapids Zodiac label.

 

What we can be pretty sure of is that "Footsteps" / "A Dream" was not done by Al Greene et al and that the Zodiac label it was on was not out of Grand Rapids   

[Guest Dave Turner]

Just out of interest I found these on this page, a lot of which has obviously been taken from the autobiography

 

https://www.michiganrockandrolllegends.com/mrrl-hall-of-fame/102-al-green

 

Sorry, they're small and unclear

 

The Creations at the El Grotto ... left to right, Gene Mason, Curtis Rogers, Lee Virgins, Al Greene ... with Jr Walker and Willie Woods in the background

 

Al Greene & the Soulmates ... left to right, Lee Virgins, Robert Greene, Al Greene

Edited August 1, 2014 by Dave Turner

[Premium Stuff]

Just out of interest I found these on this page 

 

https://www.michiganrockandrolllegends.com/mrrl-hall-of-fame/102-al-green

 

Sorry, they're small and unclear

 

The Creations at the El Grotto ... left to right, Gene Mason, Curtis Rogers, Lee Virgins, Al Greene ... with Jr Walker and Willie Woods in the background

 

Al Greene & the Soulmates ... left to right, Lee Virgins, Robert Greene, Al Greene

 

Yes, good spot mate - seen that page before - it's great info worth a read and a great site 

[Guest Dave Turner]

Another couple of pics here, one with Palmer James

 

https://www.westmichmusichystericalsociety.com/lee-virgins/

[Premium Stuff]

Another couple of pics here, one with Palmer James

 

https://www.westmichmusichystericalsociety.com/lee-virgins/

 

 Nice 

[Guest Dave Turner]

Interesting piece here how they tried to promote "Back Up Train" ... just below the vid which is irrelevant

 

https://www.rhythmandbluesuniversity.net/id58.html

[Guest Dave Turner]

A couple of sentences in here dispute Al Green suggesting they recorded as The Creations and I think Al Green must have got it wrong. Makes it all the more difficult when one person says one thing and another person says another.

 

The Grand Rapids Times
9-28-2012
By Rick Pulliam

A special by invitation only party was held on September 22, 2012, celebrating the birth of Grand Land Recording Company and honoring co-founder Curtis Rodgers.

Curtis Rodgers and Palmer James are the owners of the first record company to sign Al Green to a recording contract, back in 1966. Since then, the Rodgers and Green families have been close with one another.

The private party audience consisted of friends and family members of Curtis Rodgers and Al Green, including Al Green’s son and brother Bob.

Curtis and Al both grew up in Grand Rapids. Rodgers attended Ottawa High School, while Green attended South High School.

During high school, Curtis was a member of a group called The Enchanters, an R & B group who were in desperately in need of a lead singer.

“I know a guy who is really a great singer, his name is Al Green,” said group member Eugene Mason.

Curtis and Eugene went to Fat Man’s Fish Fry, saw Al working behind the counter, and invited him to attend a rehearsal. Al was known for singing only gospel with his father and brothers. He agreed to attend one of the groups rehearsals at Lee Virgins house, to see if he would fit in.

“We were amazed that he knew all the words to our songs, even though he only sang gospel,” recalled Curtis.

Al agreed to sing with The Enchanters, and the group entered a talent contest, won the $25 prize, entered the contest the following week and won again. The owner was so impressed with their talent that he offered to pay them $25 to perform weekly at the club.

Curtis then put together a group called the Creations, with Al Green as lead singer.

The Creations caught the attention of comedian Big Jim Sweet, and became the headliners in Sweet’s traveling road show, packing venues all over Michigan.

After three years of traveling, they were well known, treated like stars, but never had a record released. The group gained so much attention, they changed their name to The Fabulous Creations.

Unfortunately, the group split up after Al wanted to change the name to Al Green and The Fabulous Creations.

“That was around the time when I decided that I wanted to learn more about the music business,” said Curtis. “I wanted to know what a record company did, how song publishing worked, how records were pressed and how records got distributed. So I set out to learn as much as I could about the music industry.”

Along with good friend, Palmer James, the two decided to start their own record company called Grand Land Records.

With some general knowledge of the music business, the two men registered the business’ name, set up their own publishing company and employed the law services of Warner, Norcross and Judd to help with artist contracts.

One of the first groups that Grand Land Records signed People’s Choice, which featured lead singer George Lowe. The group was signed to a 2 album per year record deal and released their first single entitled “Hot Wire” in a studio in the basement of Phil Robert’s dad’s basement.

With 2000 records pressed, the song was introduced to a local black station and received immediate and constant airplay.

The group was off to Detroit to record their second release, written by Palmer James, “Saving My Lovin”. New doors began to open, including a gig at Detroit’s famed Twenty Grand Club. All of the upcoming and major stars played the Club.

Unfortunately, half way through the groups tour schedule, George Lowe decided return home to Grand Rapids, to be closer to his wife and family leaving the group without a lead singer.

Curtis called Al Green and asked him to stand in as lead singer; Al agreed and finished out the tour with the group.

“The best thing about working with Al Green is that he did what he was suppose to do and that was it,” Rodgers said. “He is a tremendous artist with a smooth as silk voice.”

After being invited to officially join the group, Al Green decided to be a solo act and signed on with Hot Line Music Journal, a label under the umbrella of Grand Land Records. His first single on the label, “Back Up Train”, was written by Curtis Rodgers and Palmer James. Palmer also wrote a song on the flip side of record entitled “Don’t Leave Me”.

To their disappointment, radio was not as kind to the label as they had hoped.

“We tried to get the radio stations in Grand Rapids to play “Back Up Train” but they refused at first,” Curtis added.

“Palmer wanted to give up, but I took the record WCHB in Detroit and within a few months, it had shot to number one, right of above Marvin Gaye’s “Heard it Through The Grape Vine”.

Grand Land founders Curtis Rodgers and Palmer James went on to sign many other Grand Rapids acts like Loyd Brown, Mickie & Ernie and Tommy Magee.

Today, Curtis is still helping new comer acts, producing on musical projects and sharing his vast knowledge of the music business with others.

He resides in Florida and in California, still driven by his passion for music.

 

https://www.grtimes.com/archive2012/9_28_2012.asp  ... second story down

Edited August 1, 2014 by Dave Turner

[Tlscapital]

After being invited to officially join the group, Al Green decided to be a solo act and signed on with Hot Line Music Journal, a label under the umbrella of Grand Land Records. This somehow implies that the record company Hot Line Music Journal was pre-existing Al Green's first single. If really so, this would put Al Green's 'don't leave me' on HLMJ 1233 self distributed as a first issue (when they had all the problems promoting it to the local radios) and when it was finally picked-up by radios, it was then given a national Bell distributed release.

[Robbk]

After being invited to officially join the group, Al Green decided to be a solo act and signed on with Hot Line Music Journal, a label under the umbrella of Grand Land Records. This somehow implies that the record company Hot Line Music Journal was pre-existing Al Green's first single. If really so, this would put Al Green's 'don't leave me' on HLMJ 1233 self distributed as a first issue (when they had all the problems promoting it to the local radios) and when it was finally picked-up by radios, it was then given a national Bell distributed release.

That looks very plausible, and appears to be the more likely scenario, rather than a re-issue AFTER the national distribution deal with Bell.

[Sebastian]

"Back Up Train" apparently "first record the 21-year old artist ever made" according to Billboard Magazine 13 January 1968.

 

[Tlscapital]

Way back, I first had the 1972 USA Bell press of 'don't leave me' b/w 'hot wire'. But when I got my Hot Line copy, I understood there was another story behind that 45. And when I was propose a People's Choice 'hot wire' I was in a daze. The singing was different but the backing track totally the same. I could read the names and imagine the connections between the people around it but never got a clear picture as to why. I never was so found of LP's but I saw it was also on it and so on the Hot Line LP. And so thanks to the same post I can also conclude the People's Choice and Al Green 'hot wire' little wonder;

 

One of the first groups that Grand Land Records signed People’s Choice, which featured lead singer George Lowe. The group was signed to a 2 album per year record deal and released their first single entitled “Hot Wire” in a studio in the basement of Phil Robert’s dad’s basement.

With 2000 records pressed, the song was introduced to a local black station and received immediate and constant airplay.

The group was off to Detroit to record their second release, written by Palmer James, “Saving My Lovin”. New doors began to open, including a gig at Detroit’s famed Twenty Grand Club. All of the upcoming and major stars played the Club.

Unfortunately, half way through the groups tour schedule, George Lowe decided return home to Grand Rapids, to be closer to his wife and family leaving the group without a lead singer.

Curtis called Al Green and asked him to stand in as lead singer; Al agreed and finished out the tour with the group.

 

And so, since Al Green must have sung out 'hot wire' live a few times, he must have adopt it to cover it for the 'backup train' LP. Maybe there's an Al Green cut to 'savin' all my lovin' for you' somewhere on a tape... Thank you all for those many answered questions around this one 45 issue that also got finally answered.

Edited August 2, 2014 by tlscapital