6 X6 Was There A Legitimate Vocal

[Guest bertie97]

BEEN ASKED THIS A FEW TIMES OVER THE YEARS.IS THERE A LEGIT VOCAL.

IF SO ,HAS ANYONE GOT AN MP3 OR SOUND-BITE.

CHEERS @97

[Guest TONY ROUNCE]

BEEN ASKED THIS A FEW TIMES OVER THE YEARS.IS THERE A LEGIT VOCAL.

IF SO ,HAS ANYONE GOT AN MP3 OR SOUND-BITE.

CHEERS @97

Short answer here is no, there wasn't...

TONE

[Dave Rimmer]

Short answer here is no, there wasn't...

TONE

Sorry Tone,

Correct short answer is, yes there was, and still is.

It's a Motown demo, and is currently owned by John Pugh. I've seen it, held it, and heard him DJ with it at the 100 Club, and Scenesville amongst other places. In fact I've even got a blipped version of it on tape (But unfortunately all my tapes are in the loft.

[Guest TONY ROUNCE]

Sorry Tone,

Correct short answer is, yes there was, and still is.

It's a Motown demo, and is currently owned by John Pugh. I've seen it, held it, and heard him DJ with it at the 100 Club, and Scenesville amongst other places. In fact I've even got a blipped version of it on tape (But unfortunately all my tapes are in the loft.

...Hmmmm, smacks of Soussanism to me. People have been researching the Motown tape inventory for years for such a thing - how come it's only turned up once, and then - with respect to John - not in the collection of any of any of the world's foremost Motown collectors?

"Six By Six" was Motown's failed attempt at grabbing a bit of the Herb Alpert and the Tijuana Brass action (HA and the TB being the biggest thing in popular music in 1965-66). Can't see any reason at all why they would also cut a vocal to something that was designed, from the off, as an instro.

I'll believe it when I hear it, and when someone identifies the vocalist as an acknowledged member of the Motown family. Until then, we'll have to agree to disagree as to the legitimacy of any vocal versions.

Of course, I'll have that humble pie ready and willing to shovel into my gobhole if someone really can prove to me that there's a real, authentcated, Motown vocal recording of "Six By Six"...

TONE

[Dave Rimmer]

...Hmmmm, smacks of Soussanism to me. People have been researching the Motown tape inventory for years for such a thing - how come it's only turned up once, and then - with respect to John - not in the collection of any of any of the world's foremost Motown collectors?

"Six By Six" was Motown's failed attempt at grabbing a bit of the Herb Alpert and the Tijuana Brass action (HA and the TB being the biggest thing in popular music in 1965-66). Can't see any reason at all why they would also cut a vocal to something that was designed, from the off, as an instro.

I'll believe it when I hear it, and when someone identifies the vocalist as an acknowledged member of the Motown family. Until then, we'll have to agree to disagree as to the legitimacy of any vocal versions.

Of course, I'll have that humble pie ready and willing to shovel into my gobhole if someone really can prove to me that there's a real, authentcated, Motown vocal recording of "Six By Six"...

TONE

From what I'm told, this was actually recorded as an audition by the singer when he went to Motown, and then pressed as a test pressing (So I was wrong muself when I said it was a demo). As a result of the audition the singer, and I cannot, no matter how hard i try remember the name John Pugh gave me, was not employed by Motown

Hence that would account for the scarcity of the disc. To be honest, you asked if it existed, you didn't ask if it was any good. It is actually pretty terrible, and you can understand why he wasn't signed when you hear it.

However, I'm not the only person on this list that's seen it and heard it. there are plenty others, and this subject has already been discussed at great length, long before you were a member Tony.The end result then was that those who have heard the record, seen it, and held, it, say it exists, and those who haven't heard it, seen it, or held it say it doesn't.

Fortunately I still retain enough of my addled brain to be able to say that if I have held something in my hands, i know it exists !

[Guest]

Short answer here is no, there wasn't...

TONE

Hi Tone

The answer as the other guy said, is yes it is a real record!! I have heard it a few times when John Pugh has been DJing, and had a look at it in Northampton a few years ago when he came down to one of my nights to guest! I think I am right in saying that the third volume of Chris King's 'This Is Northern Soul - The Motown Sound' that was pulled at the last minute was to have included the vocal version!

Cheers

Paddy

[Guest Matt Male]

I'm pretty sure a soundfile of the vocal has been posted on here at some point, i seem to remember the lyrics..

'six by six, my room is six by six... etc..'

no kidding

dunno if it was legit though..

Edited July 28, 2006 by Matt Male

[soulAdequateNP]

I'm pretty sure a soundfile of the vocal has been posted on here at some point, i seem to remember the lyrics..

'six by six, my room is six by six... etc..'

Think that was the MotorCity version, with the Andantes on vocal

[Sean Hampsey]

BEEN ASKED THIS A FEW TIMES OVER THE YEARS.IS THERE A LEGIT VOCAL.

IF SO ,HAS ANYONE GOT AN MP3 OR SOUND-BITE.

CHEERS @97

The Rumour that I recall from about 25 years ago was that it was by Tony Talent and was 'suppposed' to have been a Musicor planned release!!

I remember someone telling me that they'd heard it and that the lyrics were 'supposed' to have been about a guy in a prison cell... measuring 6' x 6'.

I guess the rumours been superseded by the John Pugh record though, but that was the old, old story.

Never heard it myself, but always found the instrumental incredibly exciting and, as a rule, I can't be arsed with instrumentals at all.

Sean Hampsey

[Dave Rimmer]

Think that was the MotorCity version, with the Andantes on vocal

It was, and that was worse than the original !

[Dayo]

"Six By Six" was Motown's failed attempt at grabbing a bit of the Herb Alpert and the Tijuana Brass action (HA and the TB being the biggest thing in popular music in 1965-66). Can't see any reason at all why they would also cut a vocal to something that was designed, from the off, as an instro.

TONE

EXACTLY! Motown arrangers would never have used brass in that way on a vocal track. Brass occupying the same kind of frequency range as the human voice, Motown tended to use large brass sections as punctuating stabs and fills. In the case of six by six, the brass section takes the lead melody.

In other words, it's way to brassy to ever have a successful vocal on it. All for you was a different kind of arrangement with more "space" for vocals

[SteveM]

The Rumour that I recall from about 25 years ago was that it was by Tony Talent and was 'suppposed' to have been a Musicor planned release!!

I remember someone telling me that they'd heard it and that the lyrics were 'supposed' to have been about a guy in a prison cell... measuring 6' x 6'.

I guess the rumours been superseded by the John Pugh record though, but that was the old, old story.

Never heard it myself, but always found the instrumental incredibly exciting and, as a rule, I can't be arsed with instrumentals at all.

Sean Hampsey

Tony Turner Sean.

See you Saturday

[soulfulsaint]

Yes heard that version in the early '70s and I've also heard Sean's prison-house explanation. This was a fairly common story back then. It may have been at the Pendulum Manchester, I heard it.

Edited July 28, 2006 by soulfulsaint

[Dave Rimmer]

Tony Turner Sean.

See you Saturday

And it was Blue Max who played it at The Catacombs in Wolverhampton.

Guess who is one of Blue Max's best mates, and also comes from Wolverhampton !

[Chalky]

From what I'm told, this was actually recorded as an audition by the singer when he went to Motown, and then pressed as a test pressing (So I was wrong muself when I said it was a demo). As a result of the audition the singer, and I cannot, no matter how hard i try remember the name John Pugh gave me, was not employed by Motown

Hence that would account for the scarcity of the disc. To be honest, you asked if it existed, you didn't ask if it was any good. It is actually pretty terrible, and you can understand why he wasn't signed when you hear it.

However, I'm not the only person on this list that's seen it and heard it. there are plenty others, and this subject has already been discussed at great length, long before you were a member Tony.The end result then was that those who have heard the record, seen it, and held, it, say it exists, and those who haven't heard it, seen it, or held it say it doesn't.

Fortunately I still retain enough of my addled brain to be able to say that if I have held something in my hands, i know it exists !

I will back you up Dave and say it does exist and that it also isn't a demo but a studio test pressing and that it is utter utter utter shite!!!!! As you said it's that bad there is no wqonder he didn't get a recording contract It's that bad I would never play it either

[Rugby Soul Club]

And it was Blue Max who played it at The Catacombs in Wolverhampton.

Guess who is one of Blue Max's best mates, and also comes from Wolverhampton !

Is there a prize if I can get the answer......

And a bonus if I can give his full address........

sorry Dave, it's this heat...

Edited July 28, 2006 by Rugby Soul Club

[Guest TONY ROUNCE]

...Sorry, y'all, but I'm still not buying into this.

I'm not saying I know or have heard everything ever to emerge from West Grand Boulevard, but surely a vocal of 'Six By Six' would have pitched up on a Spectrum or Hip-O Motown compilation by now if such a thing existed? And if it does exist, how is it that in 40+ years of collecting Motown (as I have done) nobody's ever played this to me personally or told me who it's by. (Come to that, how come I have never heard it played out anywhere? I do go out, and quite a bit, y'know...)

Not every northern instrumental has to have a legitimate vocal version, and I just don't believe that this one does. I've now researched every published compostion of both Paul Riser and Tom Nixon, who wrote 'Six By Six' together, and it's the only thing that has ever borne both their names in the writing credits. (If there HAD been a legit vocal, with words by someone else, R & N would still have appeared in the writing credits, together with a third writer).

Maybe C. King or similar has at some time recorded someone over the orginal Motown Brass track, sans EVD, and claimed it to be an original, but if so that's an argument I wouldn't want to involve myself in (or, indeed, speculate upon beyond that passing comment).

I won't believe any other assertions unless someone can show me and play me this alleged vocal cut, and I have had a chance to assess its legitimacy for myself. If they do, and I believe it to be the real thing, I will be only to happy to eat the previously-mentioned humble pie.

For now, I remain 100% unconvinced. Sorry Dave, Paddy, and anyone else here with good knowledge and taste who's tried to convince me otherwise, my jury is out until further notice...

TONE

[Chalky]

...Sorry, y'all, but I'm still not buying into this.

I'm not saying I know or have heard everything ever to emerge from West Grand Boulevard, but surely a vocal of 'Six By Six' would have pitched up on a Spectrum or Hip-O Motown compilation by now if such a thing existed? And if it does exist, how is it that in 40+ years of collecting Motown (as I have done) nobody's ever played this to me personally or told me who it's by. (Come to that, how come I have never heard it played out anywhere? I do go out, and quite a bit, y'know...)

Not every northern instrumental has to have a legitimate vocal version, and I just don't believe that this one does. I've now researched every published compostion of both Paul Riser and Tom Nixon, who wrote 'Six By Six' together, and it's the only thing that has ever borne both their names in the writing credits. (If there HAD been a legit vocal, with words by someone else, R & N would still have appeared in the writing credits, together with a third writer).

Maybe C. King or similar has at some time recorded someone over the orginal Motown Brass track, sans EVD, and claimed it to be an original, but if so that's an argument I wouldn't want to involve myself in (or, indeed, speculate upon beyond that passing comment).

I won't believe any other assertions unless someone can show me and play me this alleged vocal cut, and I have had a chance to assess its legitimacy for myself. If they do, and I believe it to be the real thing, I will be only to happy to eat the previously-mentioned humble pie.

For now, I remain 100% unconvinced. Sorry Dave, Paddy, and anyone else here with good knowledge and taste who's tried to convince me otherwise, my jury is out until further notice...

TONE

It never got as far as just being recorded at the guy's audition for Motown as far as I'm aware, studio test pressing only. Never pressed other than that not even for filing purposes, thats probably why the above you mention haven't picked up on it. It is genuine and not the thing that was suppoosed to be for Musicor or that terrible 70's job that is knocking about. It really is bad and Berry Gordy probably couldn't get the guy out of the studio's quick enough and then destroy all traces of the attempt at a vocal

As for not hearing it, John has played the thing at the 100 Club.

Trust me Tone, stay on the unbelieving side, you DON'T want to hear it

[Dave Rimmer]

...Sorry, y'all, but I'm still not buying into this.

I'm not saying I know or have heard everything ever to emerge from West Grand Boulevard, but surely a vocal of 'Six By Six' would have pitched up on a Spectrum or Hip-O Motown compilation by now if such a thing existed? And if it does exist, how is it that in 40+ years of collecting Motown (as I have done) nobody's ever played this to me personally or told me who it's by. (Come to that, how come I have never heard it played out anywhere? I do go out, and quite a bit, y'know...)

Not every northern instrumental has to have a legitimate vocal version, and I just don't believe that this one does. I've now researched every published compostion of both Paul Riser and Tom Nixon, who wrote 'Six By Six' together, and it's the only thing that has ever borne both their names in the writing credits. (If there HAD been a legit vocal, with words by someone else, R & N would still have appeared in the writing credits, together with a third writer).

Maybe C. King or similar has at some time recorded someone over the orginal Motown Brass track, sans EVD, and claimed it to be an original, but if so that's an argument I wouldn't want to involve myself in (or, indeed, speculate upon beyond that passing comment).

I won't believe any other assertions unless someone can show me and play me this alleged vocal cut, and I have had a chance to assess its legitimacy for myself. If they do, and I believe it to be the real thing, I will be only to happy to eat the previously-mentioned humble pie.

For now, I remain 100% unconvinced. Sorry Dave, Paddy, and anyone else here with good knowledge and taste who's tried to convince me otherwise, my jury is out until further notice...

TONE

Hey Tony,

Is the world still flat in your existance, or have you been to outer space yourself and seen that it's round. Or do you just believe what other people have told you.

There's three of us, me, chalky, and someone else, that other guy, that have all said we've seen it, heard it, held it. I can get a few more who are on this forum that have also done the same to add their names if you want.

I might see John Pugh tonight, I'll have a chat with him, and I might ask you to PM me your phone number, then you can hear it for yourself when he rings you.

It exists, believe me. It's crap, believe Chalky !

[Martyn Pitt]

Hey Tony,

Is the world still flat in your existance, or have you been to outer space yourself and seen that it's round. Or do you just believe what other people have told you.

There's three of us, me, chalky, and someone else, that other guy, that have all said we've seen it, heard it, held it. I can get a few more who are on this forum that have also done the same to add their names if you want.

I might see John Pugh tonight, I'll have a chat with him, and I might ask you to PM me your phone number, then you can hear it for yourself when he rings you.

It exists, believe me. It's crap, believe Chalky !

I have also heard it and seen it, and I told John I thought it was crap.

Martyn

[Sean Hampsey]

Tony Turner Sean.

See you Saturday

Hey, its my rumour, right?

You can stick to Turner if you want to.... but I much prefer my Talent!

21 hours and counting!!!!

See you then mate!

Sean

[Tony Smith]

So it can't be proved to be legitimate, and it's shit.....am I missing something fellas?

Think I prefered the "Room is 6x6" Tony Turner, or the Major Bill legends, so has anyone got "Agent For Love" Yvonne Baker then?

[Ste]

Hey Tony,

Is the world still flat in your existance, or have you been to outer space yourself and seen that it's round. Or do you just believe what other people have told you.

There's three of us, me, chalky, and someone else, that other guy, that have all said we've seen it, heard it, held it. I can get a few more who are on this forum that have also done the same to add their names if you want.

I might see John Pugh tonight, I'll have a chat with him, and I might ask you to PM me your phone number, then you can hear it for yourself when he rings you.

It exists, believe me. It's crap, believe Chalky !

this what you after. CRAP!!!!!!!

steve

[Ste]

[Tony Turner]

I'm certain that the name of the artist was Tony Turner as I find it easy to remember!!

[Pete S]

So it can't be proved to be legitimate, and it's shit.....am I missing something fellas?

Think I prefered the "Room is 6x6" Tony Turner, or the Major Bill legends, so has anyone got "Agent For Love" Yvonne Baker then?

Joeboy did actually release Agent For Love a couple of years back!

[Epic]

Utter crap - even by Levines standards

Where is The Soul Fox Orchestra when you need them?

[Wilxy]

[Jerry Hipkiss]

Think I prefered the "Room is 6x6" Tony Turner, or the Major Bill legends, so has anyone got "Agent For Love" Yvonne Baker then?

funny, in our neck of the backwoods it was supposedly Lillie Bryant "Agent for love"

Hippo.

PS Worst thing I've done this morning...click on that audio link...

Edited July 29, 2006 by Jerry Hipkiss

[pikeys dog]

how come it's only turned up once, and then - with respect to John - not in the collection of any of any of the world's foremost Motown collectors?

TONE

Ahaar,

Why be this so strange? - I'll wager many folks on here have records that be one'offs, acetates and raritees, without 'em being self-professed 'foremost Motown Collectors'.

Sound's like a 'Dog In The Manger' mentality to this ole Sea Dog.

Bye the bye, John Pugh be a respected collector by this brigand, as I've heard many a fine ditty from his treasure trove.

Yarr.

[Md Records]

I've also seen/heard the "thing" and vaguely remember it being called "Goodbye Baby", like Dave can't remember the "Artiste" but I know it wasn't "Tony Turner". The lyrics fitted into the tune arrangement, but vocally the performance was somewhat under par to what one normally expects from Motown, which, in a perverse way, could add credence to it's legitimacy?

Still undecided

Des

[Sunnysoul]

...Sorry, y'all, but I'm still not buying into this.

I'm not saying I know or have heard everything ever to emerge from West Grand Boulevard, but surely a vocal of 'Six By Six' would have pitched up on a Spectrum or Hip-O Motown compilation by now if such a thing existed? And if it does exist, how is it that in 40+ years of collecting Motown (as I have done) nobody's ever played this to me personally or told me who it's by. (Come to that, how come I have never heard it played out anywhere? I do go out, and quite a bit, y'know...)

Not every northern instrumental has to have a legitimate vocal version, and I just don't believe that this one does. I've now researched every published compostion of both Paul Riser and Tom Nixon, who wrote 'Six By Six' together, and it's the only thing that has ever borne both their names in the writing credits. (If there HAD been a legit vocal, with words by someone else, R & N would still have appeared in the writing credits, together with a third writer).

Maybe C. King or similar has at some time recorded someone over the orginal Motown Brass track, sans EVD, and claimed it to be an original, but if so that's an argument I wouldn't want to involve myself in (or, indeed, speculate upon beyond that passing comment).

I won't believe any other assertions unless someone can show me and play me this alleged vocal cut, and I have had a chance to assess its legitimacy for myself. If they do, and I believe it to be the real thing, I will be only to happy to eat the previously-mentioned humble pie.

For now, I remain 100% unconvinced. Sorry Dave, Paddy, and anyone else here with good knowledge and taste who's tried to convince me otherwise, my jury is out until further notice...

TONE

Tony, I have several questions , if you can help please :

What was the studio date of Earl Van Dyke's version ?

What was the actual release date of the original 45 ?

Have either Riser or Nixon ever been interviewed in depth at all over the years ? Riser especially was fairly active in the Motown organisation and would prove to be a wealth of information on this and many other Motown matters. Was Tom Nixon the same Nixon who went on to work at the Stax organisation in the early 70's (Temprees etc) ?

Did Motown routinely record the kind of one of studio demo "one offs' of the kind we are all debating about here with Six By Six (as against proper legitimate original acetates that have come to light over the years) . If so , there would surely be loads of these sorts of random one offs floating about over the years ...?

If the Six By Six vocal IS kosher, it begs the question why would Motown audition a wannabee on a totally obscure Earl Van Dyke backing track which as a legitimate 45 release failed to go anywhere near any pop or soul charts (to my knowledge that is!) at the time of its release ?

I hear what you say about the Herb Alpert sound , especially the prominent trumpet charts, but personally , even with Berry Gordy being as cynical as any label owner in seeking to get a hit , I still wouldn't think Berry released it to cash in on the Herb Alpert sound , and as we all know Motown never seriously promoted any of Earl Van Dykes records for fear of him becoming an "artiste" , right ?

Thanks in advance ....................

[Guest southpaw]

funny, in our neck of the backwoods it was supposedly Lillie Bryant "Agent for love"

Hippo.

PS Worst thing I've done this morning...click on that audio link...

[Chris Anderton]

For now, I remain 100% unconvinced. Sorry Dave, Paddy, and anyone else here with good knowledge and taste who's tried to convince me otherwise, my jury is out until further notice...

..................

Tone, Stop embarressing yourself mate...all of us Midlands/Albrighton Collectors/ DJs have seen it, heard it, held it...whatever you like.....it exists...I`m sorry such an expert as yourself has`nt had the pleasure......but none of us know everything mate.....live and learn.....live and learn!! Thats what this scene is all about.........

Chris.

[Supercorsa]

That was bloody awful! Almost as bad as this, no sorry just as crap as this!

[Simsy]

I will back you up Dave and say it does exist and that it also isn't a demo but a studio test pressing and that it is utter utter utter shite!!!!!

I'm reading down this thread and can't believe no one has mentioned (until post # 15) a key point about this record. Well done Chalky.

They need'nt have bothered.

[Ady Croasdell]

I've got the greatest respect for John but when I heard it at the 100 Club I just thought it was a geezer singing over the record. What's the acetates provenance, are 100% trustworthy sources involved all the way along the line? (sorry if this has been answered already!)

[Guest TONY ROUNCE]

For now, I remain 100% unconvinced. Sorry Dave, Paddy, and anyone else here with good knowledge and taste who's tried to convince me otherwise, my jury is out until further notice...

..................

Tone, Stop embarressing yourself mate...all of us Midlands/Albrighton Collectors/ DJs have seen it, heard it, held it...whatever you like.....it exists...I`m sorry such an expert as yourself has`nt had the pleasure......but none of us know everything mate.....live and learn.....live and learn!! Thats what this scene is all about.........

Chris.

I'll only consider that I've 'embarrassed' myself once I've seen it, heard it, judged for myself whether its real or snide and accurately ascertained its provenace by way of a Motown matrix number (as far as I'm aware every finished recording made at Hitsville, whether issued or not, was allocated one).

I've been collecting soul records for 40-odd years, mate, and I'm still living and learning. As I've said elsewhere, I have a nice slice of humble pie in the freezer at home, waiting to defrost and eat in public if anyone can produce the piece of music that will make me change my mind. So far, nobody has. and until they do, this alleged vocal to Six By Six is bogus as far as I'm concerned.

I'd like to thank Ady - who HAS heard it - for his considered and measured backing up of my beliefs....

TONE

[jjwetone]

I have heard it danced to it John Pugh has it and I believe its Blue Max on vocals ( RIP).......