Tonite - Northern Soul Bbc Living For The Weekend

[Guest Byrney]

No you're right, the day after Wigan closed in 1981 I disappeared until 2001, I didn't write any magazines, swap tapes with anyone, do a monthly list, go to any events or buy any records during that time.  I became a Buddhist Monk based in Tipton and took a vow of silence.  No one saw me or spoke to me.  I had absolutely no ideaNorthern Soul carried on after Wigan and rely on the likes of yourself to fill me in, being f*cking clueless like.

Bit defensive there Lad. Did I say you disappeared?

I took it from your comments you carried on. Anyway you seem to be getting a bit hysterical so I'll step away from you now

[Guest manusf3a]

The only way the "Scene" will ever be portrayed in a way that satisfies everyone will be if it is filmed and funded by the people on the inside. Until then 

there will always be discussions about who could have  said what and why. Then you would have to sell it to a mainstream TV company saying it doesn't feature any Talking heads but it's tells the truth and its good.

 

Chris.

Agree, as Terry mentioned earlier in the thread also including people like Matchie,Wilkie,Swish and others to replace the talking heads would be the way to go factual ,truthful,no talking heads and mainstream tv arent the best of mates so the big difficulty,selling it,but I sure would like to see it.

[Pete S]

Bit defensive there Lad. Did I say you disappeared?

I took it from your comments you carried on. Anyway you seem to be getting a bit hysterical so I'll step away from you now

 

I thought you insinuated that I did.  Sorry if that wasn't the case.

[Guest Byrney]

I thought you insinuated that I did.  Sorry if that wasn't the case.

No, I was noting that you said you was there so you must be able to see our concerns.

[Guest Ivor Jones]

People are giving this too easy a ride. It was poor on pretty much every level. A good historical documentary should ask not only what happened but why. It lacked even the personal perspective of Paul Mason's programme. You never really got the impression that any of this meant anything to anyone involved and that's criminal. 

 

That's not to slate those scene figures who took part as talking heads, as I understand once the interviews are done so much is down to the editing process. They were all pretty good.

 

The interventions of the 'celebs' were embarrassing. Norman Jay and Waterman were winging it so much it made my blood boil. The Tony Blackburn contributions were irrelevant. I can't believe that you have to feature these people in order to get the thing commissioned. Norman Jay's had nearly 40 years' worth of opportunity to get involved in the scene since his mythic visit to Wigan yet I've never seen him anywhere. Why does he get approached for these things?

 

The production team talked to me because of the book, but once I made it clear I didn't want to be on camera they weren't interested. The programme makers just think about 'content' in terms of minutes of film in a shoddy production like this. In a lengthy phone call with one of the researchers I addressed pretty much everything which everyone has mentioned above as a potential pitfall or shortcoming–celeb dross, cliches about the industrialised North, ignoring the 80s and 90s etc.: I'm guessing the 'conversation' (I'm using the term loosely) went totally over their heads. 

 

Because of the scarcity of historical archive footage Northern is a difficult subject to bring to the screen in a documentary, but once again we've been let down by a hackneyed presentation which views the scene as a kind of curio or cultural irrelevance on their terms. Bitterly ironic because to me the thing started and developed in the way that it did precisely to get away from soul fans being patronised by the cultural elite.

 

As yet, I haven't seen the program Gareth,but, if I'm honest, I already know what to expect. I share and understand the frustration of the scene's regulars and diehards but as Pete Smith pointed out earlier,our obsession with the music and the scene that sprang up around it is probably of little interest to a mainstream audience anyway. Clearly, no one outside of our scene is ever gonna do it proper justice and speak to the real people[outside of the real people they've already interviewed- you know what I mean ! ]……

  The only way this is ever gonna get done right is by someone who's been properly involved in it doing their own documentary……..Properly. Before everyone starts disappearing off to the great Soul club in the sky !

  Regarding Norman Jay: I don't really know him well but on the occasions that I have met him,he was a very down to earth and genuine guy. I know for a fact he did attend the Blackpool Mecca because Charlie Rees told me he travelled up on the train with them from London on at least one occasion…..Thats once more than me then !   Also, he did attend Cleethorpes weekender on a Sunday about 10 years back.He'd come back from playing at a big dance music festival the same weekend. I had a chat with him and I was pulling out tunes I was recommending him to buy from the dealers boxes…..He didn't buy any though ! Ha Ha !

  Im sticking up for him here because although I know he has broad taste in Soul and dance music, it doesn't mean he can't appreciate proper "Northern Soul" as well.  

  Oh well.  Maybe next time then…...

 Hope you're keeping well Gareth, see you soon hopefully,

     Ivor

[TOAD]

People are questioning Watermans relevance...well he was busy deejaying in July 73 at Mr Georges.Whilst he was there he created acid house and the smiley symbol...isn't this common knowledge?

if you where there then you would know however stop fucking postings any crap you can dig up !

[Pete S]

No, I was noting that you said you was there so you must be able to see our concerns.

 

Yes I can, but at the same time, I understand why they do these programs like they do...simply because they all think it ended in 1981 and nothing anyone says is going to stop that.  The golden period of Northern Soul will depend on what age you are - I know many people who went to the Torch who stopped going when it closed and just wouldn't go to Wigan, for them it was all over so they want to see a documentary set in 1972...someone of 45 years old would probably like to see a documentary about post-1981 goings on.

[Zed1]

Anyone know who this guy is on his way to Wigan in 1973?......

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Mq59ykPnAE

[KevH]

As yet, I haven't seen the program Gareth,but, if I'm honest, I already know what to expect. I share and understand the frustration of the scene's regulars and diehards but as Pete Smith pointed out earlier,our obsession with the music and the scene that sprang up around it is probably of little interest to a mainstream audience anyway. Clearly, no one outside of our scene is ever gonna do it proper justice and speak to the real people[outside of the real people they've already interviewed- you know what I mean ! ]……

  The only way this is ever gonna get done right is by someone who's been properly involved in it doing their own documentary……..Properly. Before everyone starts disappearing off to the great Soul club in the sky !

  Regarding Norman Jay: I don't really know him well but on the occasions that I have met him,he was a very down to earth and genuine guy. I know for a fact he did attend the Blackpool Mecca because Charlie Rees told me he travelled up on the train with them from London on at least one occasion…..Thats once more than me then !   Also, he did attend Cleethorpes weekender on a Sunday about 10 years back.He'd come back from playing at a big dance music festival the same weekend. I had a chat with him and I was pulling out tunes I was recommending him to buy from the dealers boxes…..He didn't buy any though ! Ha Ha !

  Im sticking up for him here because although I know he has broad taste in Soul and dance music, it doesn't mean he can't appreciate proper "Northern Soul" as well.  

  Oh well.  Maybe next time then…...

 Hope you're keeping well Gareth, see you soon hopefully,

     Ivor

 

That's the point though Ivor. NJ is just someone who appreciates NS,like many folks around.Any tom,dick or norman could have been chosen.

[Guest Byrney]

Yes I can, but at the same time, I understand why they do these programs like they do...simply because they all think it ended in 1981 and nothing anyone says is going to stop that.  The golden period of Northern Soul will depend on what age you are - I know many people who went to the Torch who stopped going when it closed and just wouldn't go to Wigan, for them it was all over so they want to see a documentary set in 1972...someone of 45 years old would probably like to see a documentary about post-1981 goings on.

And therein lies the problem Pete. Why the f33k is that?

I'm into the Northern Soul scene, I want to know about the Northern Soul scene in its entirety not just from when I started late 70s including the time I had off whilst on the house scene - why wouldn't I.

[paultp]

And that point of view is incorrect. It's a youth cult that started in the 1970s and continued. But I suppose that's enough and in some cases a preferable perspective for many of those who were only around for a few years until recently. A skewed perspective that obviously some of us struggle with.

On the score I gave it a 2.

Well it wasn't much of a youth culture after the 70's was it? I was 19 in 1976 and joined the army, going to Wigan was one of the worst experiences of my youth and I don't pretend otherwise. I was never on the Northern Soul scene and never claim to have been.

I suppose they could have made a program about how the scene died on its arse after 1981 apart from a couple of 100 die hards, then documented a number of clubs where only Stafford seems to have made any real lasting impact, they could follow that with the 90's where there seemed so little going on that even a div like me started up a club just to hear some music I like. Followed by the 2000's with the rise of the fancy dress weekender, then today with a fractured scene split between nostalgia and the new new thing.

But it would be of no interest to the general public who tend to watch TV so why would they make it? You giving the documentary a 2 will not even register as far as the BBC are concerned they won't give a flying f*ck what you think because the program was not aimed at people who have spent the best part of 50 years on the Northern Soul scene - it was made for the general public.

I thought that compared with the usual rubbish that gets aired on the subject of Northern Soul it was actually quite good - even if it did miss out the essential discussion of matrix numbers.

[Guest Matt Male]

BBC4 are airing "Rock and Roll Britannia" next Friday.  There'll be a lot of disgruntled 70 year old Teddy Boys come Saturday morning.

 

 

Actually that was a pretty good documentary. I really enjoyed it and learned a lot.

[Steve S 60]

Actually that was a pretty good documentary. I really enjoyed it and learned a lot.

 

By the same token, I would imagine anybody not involved in the NS scene who tuned in on Friday probably enjoyed it and came away better informed.

[Guest Byrney]

Well it wasn't much of a youth culture after the 70's was it? I was 19 in 1976 and joined the army, going to Wigan was one of the worst experiences of my youth and I don't pretend otherwise. I was never on the Northern Soul scene and never claim to have been.

I suppose they could have made a program about how the scene died on its arse after 1981 apart from a couple of 100 die hards, then documented a number of clubs where only Stafford seems to have made any real lasting impact, they could follow that with the 90's where there seemed so little going on that even a div like me started up a club just to hear some music I like. Followed by the 2000's with the rise of the fancy dress weekender, then today with a fractured scene split between nostalgia and the new new thing.

But it would be of no interest to the general public who tend to watch TV so why would they make it? You giving the documentary a 2 will not even register as far as the BBC are concerned they won't give a flying f*ck what you think because the program was not aimed at people who have spent the best part of 50 years on the Northern Soul scene - it was made for the general public.

I thought that compared with the usual rubbish that gets aired on the subject of Northern Soul it was actually quite good - even if it did miss out the essential discussion of matrix numbers.

Died on its arse? Really?

Did I ask for a programme on the 80s - 5 to 10 minutes would have done it. But I guess you know that but your post wouldn't have looked half as clever as you think it does.

I can't be arsed to respond to the stuff on no one would be interested, take my previous posts as my reply.

[Garethx]

That's a deeply flawed analysis Paul. I'm 47 and started going in '82-'83. There were lots of people my age who got into it at the same time via various routes, the most common seems to have been the Mod revival. I wasn't aware of anything dying on its arse. There was a very vibrant scene and you had a great time every time you went out.  A lot of people my age got into collecting records straight away and really threw themselves into it. Maybe that's different from the so-called heyday of the mid 70s where many attended clubs occasionally but didn't necessarily let it rule their lives.

 

Collecting the big oldies honestly didn't seem like an attractive option at the time because there were always more newies to chase: the true lifeblood of the scene. That point was hammered into me constantly as an 'apprentice'. The values of the scene in the early '80s were a return to the scene's roots: away from the bloated excesses of the '70s. That's genuinely the way we saw it at the time. Yes, genuine classics were harder to find: how could they not be? Any scene based around music of even the recent past faces a contraction of the supply of the raw material. Thankfully some people never stopped looking. 

 

The big problem with the 1980s scene was Promoter Wars. Some unscrupulous capitalists trying to fill the vacuum left by Wigan and grind other promoters into the dust. Often-vicious venue clashing accounted for the lower attendances at individual venues. I am convinced there was just as big a nationwide scene.

 

The calls for a separate volume on the post-Wigan years sound suspiciously like backtracking to me. It doesn't need that. It is a continuum, one that stretches back a long time before Wigan ever opened its doors. There has been evolution at every step of the way if you're willing to look hard enough for it.

 

Why do the BBC Music department continue to go to the well regarding Northern Soul? Because it's a genuinely compelling phenomenon and they (or any centralised media machine) have never been able to corral it, control it, influence or reflect it. Because of that they continue to press their noses to the window, drooling at something they can never truly get close to.

[pow wow mik]

Yes I can, but at the same time, I understand why they do these programs like they do...simply because they all think it ended in 1981 and nothing anyone says is going to stop that.  The golden period of Northern Soul will depend on what age you are - I know many people who went to the Torch who stopped going when it closed and just wouldn't go to Wigan, for them it was all over so they want to see a documentary set in 1972...someone of 45 years old would probably like to see a documentary about post-1981 goings on.

I think you're wrong in thinking that peoples' interests are so subjective, that they only care about things that relate to their own experiences...maybe most people are like that I dont know...but in any case, this was a documentary and therefore purporting to be factual.

if I watch a documentary about, say, the history of a country, an art movement, or a culture, then I want the full history of it, not just the bit I like, or the bit I lived through, or the bit the film maker was able to google.

That's not how history should be told or passed down - in sound bites and mythical 'golden ages' with convenient starts and ends and star players.

Reminds of those 'history of rock' programmes that started with elvis then jumped from million selling artist to million selling artist.

History of fuck all.

however, the northern scene did start in the 70s, and the scene then was incredible, so I think the main focus being on that era is reasonable.]

[Pete S]

I think you're wrong in thinking that peoples' interests are so subjective, that they only care about things that relate to their own experiences...maybe most people are like that I dont know...but in any case, this was a documentary and therefore purporting to be factual.

if I watch a documentary about, say, the history of a country, an art movement, or a culture, then I want the full history of it, not just the bit I like, or the bit I lived through, or the bit the film maker was able to google.

That's not how history should be told or passed down - in sound bites and mythical 'golden ages' with convenient starts and ends and star players.

Reminds of those 'history of rock' programmes that started with elvis then jumped from million selling artist to million selling artist.

History of f*ck all.

however, the northern scene did start in the 70s, and the scene then was incredible, so I think the main focus being on that era is reasonable.]

 

I didn't mean that 100% - I watch practically every BBC 4 music documentary even if I'm not keen on the subject, so I learned a bit about Dr Feelgood, Gram Parsons, Mott The Hoople, Black Sabbath, Glen Campbell and even sat through a Pink Floyd one once.  But I just go back to the punk analogy, apparently there was nothing after 1978 there either.

[Ady Croasdell]

Pete, You appear to be disagreeing with them getting it wrong on punk but saying its reasonable to ignore the last 35 years of Northern. They should get both right, they get paid enough. If i made as many mistakes as that in producing a CD I'd expect to lose my job

[Ian Dewhirst]

Interesting that the BBC have at least done 2 recent shows on Northern Soul but what about I.T.V., Channel 4 or any of the regional stations? You'd have thought that this would be right up Yorkshire-Tyne Tees or Granada's street what with them being right on the patch and all....?

 

Ian D 

[Mark R]

Interesting that the BBC have at least done 2 recent shows on Northern Soul but what about I.T.V., Channel 4 or any of the regional stations? You'd have thought that this would be right up Yorkshire-Tyne Tees or Granada's street what with them being right on the patch and all....?

Ian D

I'd really like to know why they have Ian!!

Cheers,

Mark R

Edited July 27, 2014 by Mark R

[Guest Matt Male]

By the same token, I would imagine anybody not involved in the NS scene who tuned in on Friday probably enjoyed it and came away better informed.

 

I was thinking that as I was writing, but then I though, nah...

[Steve S 60]

Interesting that the BBC have at least done 2 recent shows on Northern Soul but what about I.T.V., Channel 4 or any of the regional stations? You'd have thought that this would be right up Yorkshire-Tyne Tees or Granada's street what with them being right on the patch and all....?

 

Ian D 

 

Or Sky Arts.

[Ian Dewhirst]

I'd really like to know why they have Ian!!

Cheers,

Mark R

 

Audience I guess Mark. The Culture Show episode with Paul Mason got the highest figures of the series I'm told. It wouldn't surprise me if the figures for "Living For The Weekend" are similarly good. There does seem to be a good climate for Northern Soul right now what with the film coming out so I guess that's why there's more interest then normal.......

 

Ian D 

[paultp]

That's a deeply flawed analysis Paul. I'm 47 and started going in '82-'83. There were lots of people my age who got into it at the same time via various routes, the most common seems to have been the Mod revival. I wasn't aware of anything dying on its arse. There was a very vibrant scene and you had a great time every time you went out.  A lot of people my age got into collecting records straight away and really threw themselves into it. Maybe that's different from the so-called heyday of the mid 70s where many attended clubs occasionally but didn't necessarily let it rule their lives.

 

Collecting the big oldies honestly didn't seem like an attractive option at the time because there were always more newies to chase: the true lifeblood of the scene. That point was hammered into me constantly as an 'apprentice'. The values of the scene in the early '80s were a return to the scene's roots: away from the bloated excesses of the '70s. That's genuinely the way we saw it at the time. Yes, genuine classics were harder to find: how could they not be? Any scene based around music of even the recent past faces a contraction of the supply of the raw material. Thankfully some people never stopped looking. 

 

The big problem with the 1980s scene was Promoter Wars. Some unscrupulous capitalists trying to fill the vacuum left by Wigan and grind other promoters into the dust. Often-vicious venue clashing accounted for the lower attendances at individual venues. I am convinced there was just as big a nationwide scene.

 

The calls for a separate volume on the post-Wigan years sound suspiciously like backtracking to me. It doesn't need that. It is a continuum, one that stretches back a long time before Wigan ever opened its doors. There has been evolution at every step of the way if you're willing to look hard enough for it.

 

Why do the BBC Music department continue to go to the well regarding Northern Soul? Because it's a genuinely compelling phenomenon and they (or any centralised media machine) have never been able to corral it, control it, influence or reflect it. Because of that they continue to press their noses to the window, drooling at something they can never truly get close to.

It was a deliberately flawed analysis and I agree that dying on its arse was a bit strong. I have no idea what happened as I spent the 80s in Germany and Cyprus, I only have anecdotes to go on. I think I was trying to illustrate the view anyone outside the scene would take of the scene after Wigan. If someone is going to pigeonhole me as someone who spent a few years on the scene (which I didn't) and then came back (which I didn't) I think I'm entitled to be just as patronising.

But it wasn't the youth culture of the 80's in the same way that it was of the 70's, the documentary touched on that as it showed that in the 80's the rave scene was the dominant youth culture and even commented on the parallels with Northern Soul. After the 70's Northern Soul was just like any other scene; some stayed, most didn't, some joined. As Pete said; Punk was the same, it didn't die but it wasn't mainstream after a few years, people moved on.

[Steve S 60]

Just checked out the BBC's Points Of View website and there's the opportunity for any disgruntled licence fee payers to point out any on air errors to the programme makers.

Edited July 27, 2014 by Steve S 60

[Mellorful]

Saw him once walking through the Merrion Centre in Leeds, early 80,s, right skinny little short arse, i remember that story about him, involving a stomach pump, i,ll leave it at that ! 

A former work colleague told me when he was at University he also worked nights as a doorman in Yorkshire; he came across MA who was behaving like a T**t (direct quotation) in the club so he gave him a bashing and threw him out of the club.

Perhaps justice should have been repeated after he abused Gloria Jones classic.

[Garethx]

Again Paul, I'd have to disagree with some of that. Northern was never the youth cult of the 70s in those terms.

 

It was always far more underground than that, minuscule in comparison to Skinhead at the start and end of the decade, football violence throughout the decade, patchouli-swilling hippies, greatcoat wearing Prog fans, Peter Skellern fans, Glam Rockers, proto-punks, punks, post-punks, neo-punks etc. etc.

 

It's always been practically invisible according to yardsticks like sheer numbers, media visibility, chart exposure, a coherent external literature.

Edited July 27, 2014 by garethx

[Steve S 60]

A former work colleague told me when he was at University he also worked nights as a doorman in Yorkshire; he came across MA who was behaving like a T**t (direct quotation) in the club so he gave him a bashing and threw him out of the club.

Perhaps justice should have been repeated after he abused Gloria Jones classic.

 

Maybe that was the Tainted Love that young Marc sang so passionately about.

[Scal]

"The same old faces, the same old faces"........although very nice to see Colin Curtis looking healthier than me now; in the 1970's he looked like he could've done with a good meal.

[Ian Dewhirst]

Or Sky Arts.

 

Indeed. I'd be surprised if they didn't do something.

 

In fact, talking of music documentaries, this reminded me of a similar situation with the 80s London clubbing fraternity disagreeing with each other following a program called "How Clubbing Changed The World" which aired in 2012. Greg Wilson did a piece on it in his blog and the parallels are quite similar with "Living For The Weekend" - the moral being 'you can never please all of the people all of the time'......

 

https://www.gregwilson.co.uk/2012/09/how-clubbing-changed-the-world/

 

Ian D 

[Guest Byrney]

It was a deliberately flawed analysis and I agree that dying on its arse was a bit strong. I have no idea what happened as I spent the 80s in Germany and Cyprus, I only have anecdotes to go on. I think I was trying to illustrate the view anyone outside the scene would take of the scene after Wigan. If someone is going to pigeonhole me as someone who spent a few years on the scene (which I didn't) and then came back (which I didn't) I think I'm entitled to be just as patronising.

But it wasn't the youth culture of the 80's in the same way that it was of the 70's, the documentary touched on that as it showed that in the 80's the rave scene was the dominant youth culture and even commented on the parallels with Northern Soul. After the 70's Northern Soul was just like any other scene; some stayed, most didn't, some joined. As Pete said; Punk was the same, it didn't die but it wasn't mainstream after a few years, people moved on.

So I guess you mean me:

"And that point of view is incorrect. It's a youth cult that started in the 1970s and continued. But I suppose that's enough and in some cases a preferable perspective for many of those who were only around for a few years until recently. A skewed perspective that obviously some of us struggle with".

Where did that statement pigeonhole or patronise you? It relates to the many who dont give a flying about knowing about the scene whilst they were off it.

If I meant you I'd say you, not the many. I know nothing about you.

Edited July 27, 2014 by Byrney

[Ian Dewhirst]

Maybe that was the Tainted Love that young Marc sang so passionately about.

 

It was the perfect song for him in all honesty. The lyrics were perfect. It nicely rounded off Ed Cobb's songwriting legacy after "Dirty Water" in the 60s. He'd have had a very comfortable retirement too. 

 

Note: just as I wrote that, an ITV trailer came on using a female version of "Tainted Love" for bloody Coronation Street and Emmerdale Farm. What's the world coming to ay...? 

 

https://www.tvadmusic.co.uk/2014/07/itv-summer-of-soaps/

 

Ian D 

[Steve S 60]

 What's the world coming to ay?

 

Ian D 

 

 

 

"WHAT" exactly.

[Mark S]

Could end up on Gogglebox .

[Ian Dewhirst]

Could end up on Gogglebox .

 

Uh oh. Didn't consider that lol.....

 

Ian D 

[Modernsoulsucks]

I find myself agreeing with both camps but want to say "yes but..." to each point made on either side.

But then you're getting into the minutae and this programme didn't have the time to go into all that.

ROD

[paultp]

So I guess you mean me:

"And that point of view is incorrect. It's a youth cult that started in the 1970s and continued. But I suppose that's enough and in some cases a preferable perspective for many of those who were only around for a few years until recently. A skewed perspective that obviously some of us struggle with".

Where did that statement pigeonhole or patronise you? It relates to the many who dont give a flying about knowing about the scene whilst they were off it.

If I meant you I'd say you, not the many. I know nothing about you.

I do mean you, and I know nothing about you either. You replied with my post quoted, how could you not have meant me? Disingenuous or what? If it wasn't what you meant it was certainly how it read, I don't know what collective your the spokesman for but it is an oft trotted out view that nobody who hasn't stayed "on the scene" through thick and thin is entitled to an opinion.

I couldn't care less to be honest, I understood some time ago that what I like is the music not the scene. The scene is someone's personal view of what is going on, it's an abstract view, it's their little bubble. Apparently 150,000 people had Wigan Casino membership cards, I was one of them, but many people wouldn't consider that more than 1% of them were on the scene. But they were part of that youth culture of the 70's that wasn't a youth culture after the 70's.

My wife has just asked me why I'm engaging in this thread and I haven't got any decent answer, it doesn't matter a jot to me.

[paultp]

Again Paul, I'd have to disagree with some of that. Northern was never the youth cult of the 70s in those terms.

 

It was always far more underground than that, minuscule in comparison to Skinhead at the start and end of the decade, football violence throughout the decade, patchouli-swilling hippies, greatcoat wearing Prog fans, Peter Skellern fans, Glam Rockers, proto-punks, punks, post-punks, neo-punks etc. etc.

 

It's always been practically invisible according to yardsticks like sheer numbers, media visibility, chart exposure, a coherent external literature.

I didn't say it was THE youth culture of the seventies i said it wasn't the youth culture of the 80's.

Peter Skellern fans?

[Guest Byrney]

I do mean you, and I know nothing about you either. You replied with my post quoted, how could you not have meant me? Disingenuous or what? If it wasn't what you meant it was certainly how it read, I don't know what collective your the spokesman for but it is an oft trotted out view that nobody who hasn't stayed "on the scene" through thick and thin is entitled to an opinion.

I couldn't care less to be honest, I understood some time ago that what I like is the music not the scene. The scene is someone's personal view of what is going on, it's an abstract view, it's their little bubble. Apparently 150,000 people had Wigan Casino membership cards, I was one of them, but many people wouldn't consider that more than 1% of them were on the scene. But they were part of that youth culture of the 70's that wasn't a youth culture after the 70's.

My wife has just asked me why I'm engaging in this thread and I haven't got any decent answer, it doesn't matter a jot to me.

Nope, it's how you read it, or wanted to read it. Leave it with you

[Garethx]

Young people continued to join the scene in the 80s.

 

But also bear in mind that even in the 1970s NS was already different to 'youth cults' as we understand them in that there were people who'd done The Wheel etc. and had stayed aboard. The age range was relatively broad even in, say, 1975.

[Cover-up]

Phew! I feel like I spent more time reading this thread than watching the programme... So feel obliged to add my tuppence worth.

As a proud Glaswegian I can't help but feel parallels with the Commonwealth Games opening ceremony - everyone I know found it a massive embarassment. But it seems like everyone else around the globe loved it... As has been previously mentioned - a Friday night hour long programme ISN'T aimed at members on here. It was aimed at your average viewer, and I think the average viewer would pretty much get the gist of what northern soul is about...

What was the song playing about 50 minutes in, during the "Levine must go" section - can't put my finger on it.

[Simon T]

What was the song playing about 50 minutes in, during the "Levine must go" section - can't put my finger on it.

The love I lost - Harold Melvin  ?

[Mssoulie]

The media always does this, persevering with the false assumption that the most popular is the most important - that somehow, we are more interested in the phenomenon of liking something, than in that which is liked. Hence the bizarre obsession with record sales, number ones, money made etc and the disregard of 1000s of great pieces of commercially unsuccessful music...

so in this case, the position is contradictory and absurd - shoehorning celebrities into a documentary about a scene that's whole purpose was to invert the mainstream, media-lead position and focus on music, regardless of its commercial success. To disregard celebrity culture and that whole 'propaganda of the victors' paradigm still running through the mainstream music media today.

if people can only relate to something via a celebrity endorsement, then they shouldn't be pandered to but cured of this affliction.

the best thing about underground culture, the phenomenon that absolutely encapsulates it, and particularly the soul and mod scenes, is that the person at the top of the game, who knows more about music than pete water man , simon cowell and all those chumps combined could well be a welder from Stoke, a mechanic from manchester or a drug dealer from sheffield.

Fat middle ages guys can be great dancers, rough or awkward white British folks can gurn with ecstacy at the feeling expressd by black Americans decades earlier.

I know the programme did touch on this via ian levine and the lovely lady from edinburgh, may she rest in peace, but in wheeling on celebrities to talk shit, and to bring up tony blackburn, trivialises the whole thing.

As in all areas of life - the stars are the normal people who are good at stuff or passionate about stuff, who just get on with it, whether its the in thing or not.

If that alone isn't interesting enough to you then dont bother making a documentary at all, cos you dont get it.

.

[Mssoulie]

[Cover-up]

The love I lost - Harold Melvin  ?

Thanks Simon, that's the one. Out of interest, was it played as an example of the kind of sound the northern fans hated? Just curious, thought it sounded great!

[dthedrug]

 HI ALL only just watched this, must say I did enjoy it, I must make my usual comment about these documentaries, and one which got me a warning from this site, I'm talking about the reference to drug use on the scene, this documentary did not shy away from the subject, I won't dwell on the subject on to say it was very much a part of the history off Northern Soul then and for some still.  DAVE K

[Frankie Crocker]

I'd really like to know why they have Ian!!

Cheers,

Mark R

We've planted a Northern Mole at the Beeb. He's really into Northern big-time hence all the backing tracks and oldies popping up. He's keen to make sure all license payers get their money's worth so he regularly drops hints to the programmers about putting on something for minority groups such as aged black-music lovers...

[Frankie Crocker]

[Kegsy]

That's a deeply flawed analysis Paul. I'm 47 and started going in '82-'83. There were lots of people my age who got into it at the same time via various routes, the most common seems to have been the Mod revival. I wasn't aware of anything dying on its arse. There was a very vibrant scene and you had a great time every time you went out.  A lot of people my age got into collecting records straight away and really threw themselves into it. Maybe that's different from the so-called heyday of the mid 70s where many attended clubs occasionally but didn't necessarily let it rule their lives.

 

 

 

The scene has always had people, for who it was a way of life, pre and post Wigan.

The true early 70's hard-core devotees didn't attend "clubs occasionally" they went out

on a Friday and came home Sunday/Monday, I would suspect there were people who also

did this post Wigan.

The only time we had "tourists" was at Wigan they would turn up in droves, not having a

clue about the music, eating sandwiches, wearing the uniform and falling asleep all over the place,

they were a pain in the arse. Don't get me wrong many of the Wigan newcomers did appreciate it all

and became lovers of the music, but there were also a lot of divs.

 

This pre/post 1981 pissing completion, that's breaking out on here is stupid, both eras are equally valid in

what was an underground youth sub culture. The operative word is "youth" people got older and dropped off the scene

due to growing up, getting other commitments etc., younger people came onto the scene and carried it forward.

Neither period was better than the other.

I sometimes think, if the Mecca had done allnighters, after the Torch shut, Wigan would never have started

and the whole scene would have been better off, Wigan was a double edged sword for the scene.

[Pete S]

Again Paul, I'd have to disagree with some of that. Northern was never the youth cult of the 70s in those terms.

 

It was always far more underground than that, minuscule in comparison to Skinhead at the start and end of the decade, football violence throughout the decade, patchouli-swilling hippies, greatcoat wearing Prog fans, Peter Skellern fans, Glam Rockers, proto-punks, punks, post-punks, neo-punks etc. etc.

 

It's always been practically invisible according to yardsticks like sheer numbers, media visibility, chart exposure, a coherent external literature.

 

That's completely wrong, it was everywhere especially in 1975, you couldn't walk down a street without seeing someone wearing a Soul Wolverhampton or Keep The Faith patch, all the divvy kids bought Get Out and Out On The Floor and it I'd say one in three kids was into it, even if it was only for a brief period.