Price Guides - W.t.f

[Quinvy]

Having recently started buying and selling vinyl again, I thought I'd better buy a price guide to help me with current prices. I know they have always only been a guide, but at one time most rarities seemed to sell for roughly what was in Manship's book.

 

Since I bought the latest of his guides however, every record I have bought or sold, has born very little resemblance to the guide price. And I don't mean just by a couple of quid either way but hundreds of pounds on the big lads.

 

I don't know how or why it's happened, but the guide is a total waste of ink and paper in todays market place.

 

Your thoughts on the subject?

 

[Pete S]

It's very confusing.  Someone asked the value of Doni Burdick - Open The Door To Your Heart the other night on Facebook, I said £50 to £75 but very hard to sell, which it is, John comes on and said he's sold 12 copies at £100 a time and needs another one.  But this is the point - nobody else could get £100 for it I doubt, and he bases the price guide on the price that he has sold them for.  So what's it worth, £75 or £100?  This is just an example - there are records in the guide listed at £200, £300 which you couldn't get £50 for.  I always think the best way to find a value is to look on here, on Popsike, on JM, on Discogs and then find the average price.

[KevH]

It's very confusing.  Someone asked the value of Doni Burdick - Open The Door To Your Heart the other night on Facebook, I said £50 to £75 but very hard to sell, which it is, John comes on and said he's sold 12 copies at £100 a time and needs another one.  But this is the point - nobody else could get £100 for it I doubt, and he bases the price guide on the price that he has sold them for.  So what's it worth, £75 or £100?  This is just an example - there are records in the guide listed at £200, £300 which you couldn't get £50 for.  I always think the best way to find a value is to look on here, on Popsike, on JM, on Discogs and then find the average price.

 

Also add in what the record owes you when selling,and what you'd pay for a particular record when buying.!! Guides are what they are.

Edited July 24, 2014 by KevH

[Rob Wigley]

Guides are just that, as John says in his intro, he also states that it is the price for A MINT UNPLAYED COPY, not many of those around are there !

Great for info and well worth the £30 or so for the detail.

good job Tim and John wrote it all down

Rob

[Quinvy]

It's even worse with the big rarities, for example, The Four Voices original. Manship guide price is £1250 yet it has sold recently for £1400 and £1500. And I don't mean it's sat around at those prices. Both could have sold many times over.

 

And I was sat there thinking, that will never sell for that price. 

[Quinvy]

Guides are just that, as John says in his intro, he also states that it is the price for A MINT UNPLAYED COPY, not many of those around are there !

Great for info and well worth the £30 or so for the detail.

good job Tim and John wrote it all down

Rob

Yes but that's my point Rob. Some rarities are going for way more than his book prices.

[Pete S]

Guides are just that, as John says in his intro, he also states that it is the price for A MINT UNPLAYED COPY, not many of those around are there !

Great for info and well worth the £30 or so for the detail.

good job Tim and John wrote it all down

Rob

 

Seriously Rob?  You mean ruining it for everyone except themselves?  There was enough of the pie to go round before the price guides, so what do they do?  Arm every man and his dog with the information it took us years to learn.  The price guides are the worst thing ever to happen to the collecting scene.

[Quinvy]

That's definitely a dealers perspective Pete. After having twenty years away from vinyl it was a nightmare for someone like me to start again,bearing in mind that I was new to the internet as well. All I had for reference was Kev Roberts top 500, which with black and white pictures meant I was accidentally buying boots and reissues. When I purchased Manship's bootleg guide it revolutionised my buying.

 

The guides have helped people like me who didn't have the knowledge.

 

I'm not bigging up the price guides, I was more than happy with the boot guide. But it would be impossible to bring that to use today, there are so many people making boots / reissues and lookalike carvers it's a nightmare.

Edited July 24, 2014 by Quinvy

[KevH]

There's sort of two levels though.One -  what's happening out and about,sniffing out records.And the other, which is picking up the guide and paying whatever the value.

Like Phil said the boot guide is useful.I ask my mates who have got one, if i've got any queries.

[Pete S]

That's definitely a dealers perspective Pete. After having twenty years away from vinyl it was a nightmare for someone like me to start again,bearing in mind that I was new to the internet as well. All I had for reference was Kev Roberts top 500, which with black and white pictures meant I was accidentally buying boots and reissues. When I purchased Manship's bootleg guide it revolutionised my buying.

 

The guides have helped people like me who didn't have the knowledge.

 

I'm not bigging up the price guides, I was more than happy with the boot guide. But it would be impossible to bring that to use today, there are so many people making boots / reissues and lookalike carvers it's a nightmare.

 

The bootleg and pressings books are great and really useful.

[Mick Boyle]

Years ago I found a guy in the states selling a copy of Bit By Bit (cant remember the artist) it was in Manships book at £500 and he was asking $10.  Didnt know the record but sounded like a good deal, I called him and he asked if i wanted a demo or issue as he had a load of them. So I had a few - as you would, turned out to be a miss print or incorrect price entry or something like that in the price guide.

Aaagggghhhhh

[Guest Matt Male]

I'm not a dealer but I have sold a few records recently. Generally I go by, what I paid for it, what I've seen it go for on here and on FB/ebay/discogs/gemm etc... and what the current buzz is on chat on FB and the scene in general.

 

Even then though I can get it wrong. I recently sold Ron Surrey - Sweet City Woman for £50, only to be told after it was worth £100, but everywhere I looked I never saw it for more than £50. Guides and the internet are one thing but I guess there's no compensating for having your finger on the pulse (which I don't it seems  ).

[Kjw]

Years ago I found a guy in the states selling a copy of Bit By Bit (cant remember the artist) it was in Manships book at £500 and he was asking $10.  Didnt know the record but sounded like a good deal, I called him and he asked if i wanted a demo or issue as he had a load of them. So I had a few - as you would, turned out to be a miss print or incorrect price entry or something like that in the price guide.

Aaagggghhhhh

 

Anita Henson Mick ?

[Premium Stuff]

Remember that it was Simon Soussan who brought out the first (?) price guide. Back in the early 1990s I think it was. So price guides have been part of the scene for around 20 years.

 

The main value of the guides for me relates to the record details in there. 

 

Not sure about the latest version, but Tim Brown's guide only used to list one side, but not the flip. By comparison, John Manship listed both sides - sooo much better.

 

With the ability to see eBay sold prices, then sites such as Popsike and Collectorsfrenzy there is a lot of information out there.

 

All of these sources, the published price guides included, are just guides. I always say there is not one price for a record. Same as antiques and other collectables.

 

People often complain that the prices in the guides are too high. Well, if most people were following them then we would all be buying and selling at around those prices ...

 

One of the things that I find useful is when I have a record and it's not in the guides - which generally tells me it is a rare one 

 

Cheers

 

Richard

Edited July 24, 2014 by Premium Stuff

[Pete S]

Remember that it was Simon Soussan who brought out the first (?) price guide. Back in the early 1990s I think it was. So price guides have been part of the scene for around 20 years.

 

The main value of the guides for me relates to the record details in there. 

 

Not sure about the latest version, but Tim Brown's guide only used to list one side, but not the flip. By comparison, John Manship listed both sides - sooo much better.

 

With the ability to see eBay sold prices, then sites such as Popsike and Collectorsfrenzy there is a lot of information out there.

 

All of these sources, the published price guides included, are just guides. I always say there is not one price for a record. Same as antiques and other collectables.

 

People often complain that the prices in the guides are too high. Well, if most people were following them then we would all be buying and selling at around those prices ...

 

One of the things that I find useful is when I have a record and it's not in the guides - which generally tells me it is a rare one 

 

Cheers

 

Richard

 

Soussan's price guide was a very limited edition and may even have been withdrawn, and it was basically Martin Koppell's wants list reproduced but with prices added.  Took me years to get this book, eventually got two, sold both now though.

[Pete S]

So is it only me who is totally anti-price guide or are people actually scared to say the same for some reason?  Come on, it can't just be me.

[Winsford Soul]

Most UK dealers use the same grading system for there records. Why don't the price guide's grade and price to match. Then I think we would get a more realistic price of the records. 

Don't forget a record is only worth what somebody's willing to pay for it

 

Steve

[Mick Boyle]

Years ago I found a guy in the states selling a copy of Bit By Bit (cant remember the artist) it was in Manships book at £500 and he was asking $10.  Didnt know the record but sounded like a good deal, I called him and he asked if i wanted a demo or issue as he had a load of them. So I had a few - as you would, turned out to be a miss print or incorrect price entry or something like that in the price guide.

Aaagggghhhhh

Anita Henson Mick ?                           Thats the one - How many do you want 

So is it only me who is totally anti-price guide or are people actually scared to say the same for some reason?  Come on, it can't just be me.

When Im in the states and every shop has a copy then I hate them 

 

                                      But

When I need a quick guide or some info then there ace

 

Love em or hate em there here to stay and we all have one. Dont we 

Edited July 24, 2014 by Mick Boyle

[Quinvy]

I think anyone who like you Pete who has never had a break from records will hate them. After all the spent years collating the knowledge, but you could say the same about any collectables. Look at all the antique dealers/experts around now. The books/guides and the internet have made the real experts almost redundant.

 

Modern technology helps everyone. Knowledge is power.

 

The thing is though, the guides were vilified for being over priced. What I'm saying is that now the prices therein are way bellow what can be actually be achieved.

Edited July 24, 2014 by Quinvy

[Premium Stuff]

I think anyone who like you Pete who has never had a break from records will hate them. After all the spent years collating the knowledge, but you could say the same about any collectables. Look at all the antique dealers/experts around now. The books/guides and the internet have made the real experts almost redundant.

 

Modern technology helps everyone. Knowledge is power.

 

The thing is though, the guides were vilified for being over priced. What I'm saying is that now the prices therein are way bellow what can be actually be achieved.

 

Agreed Phil - that is definitely true of a few things I have sold or priced up for selling over the last couple of years. 

 

Sometimes it is due to records coming into vogue and so the price goes up.

 

In other cases, with some rarer (not necessarily expensive) records it may be that the author just hasn't had the record for ages and the price just shows what it sold for years ago when they last had it.

 

In other cases, it could even be that the author may not have had the record at all, but still wants to document it - and so makes a best guess about value.

 

Just some thoughts 

 

Cheers

 

Richard

[Tony A]

So is it only me who is totally anti-price guide or are people actually scared to say the same for some reason?  Come on, it can't just be me.

 

 

No it's not only you Pete, on some digging trips I would root through boxes for hours, find a few gems I would want, take em to the counter, then out from under the counter comes the dreaded book, some people even ask almost the amount quoted.

 

Even had one guy take the records I had sorted and put them in a separate box after pricing them. Did his sorting for him.     

[Guest Matt Male]

So is it only me who is totally anti-price guide or are people actually scared to say the same for some reason?  Come on, it can't just be me.

 

 

Well I've never owned one and I don't use them. I'm ambivalent I suppose.

[Larsc]

I have the 3rd edition of manships price guide. It's so useless I haven't bothered to buy any of the newer ones.

[Pete S]

Edition 5 is the best one.

[Labeat]

If a wealthy young guy in say Sweden or Japan pays way over the odds for a tune does this set a precedence?

Likewise, 50 or so of the same tune could turn up in Chicago! No-one ought to be influenced by price guides,

just grab a bargain when you can, patience is a virtue

[Scal]

Have the courage of your convictions, if you buy a record because you like it, then you pay what it is worth to you, surely? You will know what the parameters are!

If you are a shark trying to rip someone off, well, that has gone on since day one....and will continue anyway.

Price guides.....great for reference and nice to peruse.....but they are only up to date for a split second....then they become dated.

A luxury; the information can be referenced elsewhere via mass media and communication systems...it is 2014, wake up!

[Dave Moore]

Guide books are like guide dogs......best used by the blind.

Regards,

Dave

[Mr Smithy]

Even had one guy take the records I had sorted and put them in a separate box after pricing them. Did his sorting for him.

When you've perused the offending prices, take them back for an um and an ah, then walk over quickly to the racks and put them back at random. Best you can do, and it does make you feel a bit better knowing he's got to find them again at least

[Tony A]

When you've perused the offending prices, take them back for an um and an ah, then walk over quickly to the racks and put them back at random. Best you can do, and it does make you feel a bit better knowing he's got to find them again at least

Racks ? this was a shitty old basement, pallets floating about on water these were the stepping stones  

 

More like Rats.

[Scal]

Wasn't in Newton Heath was it?

[Mr Smithy]

Racks ? this was a shitty old basement, pallets floating about on water these were the stepping stones  

 

More like Rats.

Ah well, clear case of SOSS then

Stumble Ooops Splash Sorry

 

[Mellorful]

Price guides are semi helpful, unfortunately, some sellers and buyers see the price in Manship and assume their copy is worth that amount without considering the grading. 

I apply the following book valuation:

mint copy may be the book price

excellent condition 75%

VG condition 50% 

I apply that rough guide when buying; however, sometimes I don't think a record is worth in the guide price and stick to my convictions.

In ten years time when most of the collectors and sellers are retired the prices will be significantly lower than current prices so if you are buying as a long term investment you could end up disappointed.

[Labeat]

oo eck, in 10 years are we all doomed.... no were not, Soul Sam will be in his 80's... and still at it! so look on the bright side lads

[Guest Rob Alias]

So is it only me who is totally anti-price guide or are people actually scared to say the same for some reason?  Come on, it can't just be me.

 

I would suggest that you are being unrealistic - price guides can be exceptionally useful if they are compiled with integrity and honesty, helping buyers to avoid being ripped off with a bootleg or a second or third pressing. This can upset dealers who will claim that their 'exceptional time earned knowledge' gives them the right to dictate or determine prices - this being the case when dealers can conspire to create a false market price to their advantage (but of course this doesn't happen...).

 

Prive guides can be helpful but I also recognise they can have a a distorting effect on the 'free market' - and I say this as someone who has bought and sold vinyl (but not music from the Northern Soul Scene (NSS)).

[paultp]

The price guides are appalling for the simple reason that prices for records are a fiction supported by people with record collections or those that sell records.

For many of the US record shops that never had a clue they are a lazy mans god send - why bother sorting your records when you can just wait for some punter to turn up to the counter with a bunch of unpriced records from your unsorted boxes then pull out a "guide" and price them up.

For those people with no ears and loads of money, why bother listening to things and deciding on what you like when you can look in a price guide and just buy stuff to impress your mates.

As a dealer, why should you compete with collectors to buy records from the US when you can just tell the US dealers what a supposed retail price is then negotiate a discount based on that price to take everything they have?

Collecting used to be fun when you could buy something for what you thought it was worth, now you are told what it is worth and worse than that people believe that when a record dealer says what something is worth then that is the truth. Load of rubbish, record dealers are like estate agents, they make money by talking up the price.

Apart from Pete obviously, it's his fault I buy records :-)

Just my humble opinion.

[Frankie Crocker]

It's even worse with the big rarities, for example, The Four Voices original. Manship guide price is £1250 yet it has sold recently for £1400 and £1500. And I don't mean it's sat around at those prices. Both could have sold many times over.

 

And I was sat there thinking, that will never sell for that price. 

I paid John twelve hundred for a copy a few years back so it came as a relief to see it upped to £1,250. Two great sides and very hard to find in nice condition so hardly surprising it is trading above the book valuation.

[Mal C]

My Manship guide used to live on the deck, doesn't not anymore, I find it useless pretty much, Ive read these things for years, like we all have, can think of better things to do than waste marker pen ink...

 

In fact it spoils the handmade crocheted doily Liza dropped on there.... now they are a waste of time!!

 

mal

[Frankie Crocker]

The early Manship guides were priced up in dollars but somehow the figures today speak pounds...go figure. In the beginning, John acknowledged the figures quoted were subject to a deduction for VAT but this seems to be overlooked nowadays. Early on, the price guides gave the ignorant US dealer an advantage they did not have, but the guides have now been replaced by the internet which is used by a large number of dealers who check values on Popsike etc. The price guides are an invaluable resource to collectors, most of whom do not have encyclopaedic knowledge or the experience of the top dealers - the collector travelling the US or browsing the internet simply has to make use of a price guide for details of artists, titles and labels, otherwise they are missing out.

[davidwapples]

people should use their own common sence with guide prices

take off about 40/ 50 % as most records on the scene are only vg+ and the price is for mint records

take off the 20% vat

 

there you have the proper value

 

why is it that records on the northern scene only tend to have a  small % off of the guide price for being vg+ and not the suggested 50% in price guides like record collectors?

[Labeat]

Record collecting is a very infectious disease, some dealers will not budge on price, some will haggle, but that all goes without saying.

If you find a tune you rarely/never see i would say most of us will pay the asking price regardless of the overall quality.... he's got it, you want it

Edited July 25, 2014 by Labeat

[Guest Garry Huxley]

when browsing record lists etc i find that with the vast ammount of records and we cant know them all i usually find it's handy to have a quick peek in the bookand the ones that look promising are usually looked up on youtube then if i like what i hear follow it up on popsyke etc.

so it has a use after all.

Happy hunting.

Garry

[Pete S]

people should use their own common sence with guide prices

take off about 40/ 50 % as most records on the scene are only vg+ and the price is for mint records

take off the 20% vat

 

there you have the proper value

 

why is it that records on the northern scene only tend to have a  small % off of the guide price for being vg+ and not the suggested 50% in price guides like record collectors?

 

It's because some of them are so very rare that you won't see another copy for years.

I'm in the same position with reggae 45's - I sometimes pay full "book" price for something in VG minus because you know it'll be the only chance of getting a copy.  And that's with no centre and writing on the label as well 

[Labeat]

Why do records turn up once you've found a copy after several years.... very mysterious

[Pete S]

I would suggest that you are being unrealistic - price guides can be exceptionally useful if they are compiled with integrity and honesty, helping buyers to avoid being ripped off with a bootleg or a second or third pressing. This can upset dealers who will claim that their 'exceptional time earned knowledge' gives them the right to dictate or determine prices - this being the case when dealers can conspire to create a false market price to their advantage (but of course this doesn't happen...).

 

 

So you think there's a secret conglomerate of dealers who meet up every 6 months to discuss marketing strategy for Northern Soul records.  The only people who can do this are those who have one title in quantity, otherwise it's every person for themselves.  There are very few people who have top sounds in quantity, and the idea is to undercut them, not match them.

[Guest Garry Huxley]

Why do records turn up once you've found a copy after several years.... very mysterious

 

Bought Theola Kilgore Sound of my man  M- demo about 3 yrs ago after searching for many years then within about a month several more listed on ebay of which i bought another demo and 2 issiues as they were good investment potential as all under £20, I paid around $100 for the first one.

Doing this allowes me to buy the rarer stuff i want. a lot of the usa dealers regulary turn up with large boxes of new old stock and only list them as one copy per month

[Rob Wigley]

Seriously Rob?  You mean ruining it for everyone except themselves?  There was enough of the pie to go round before the price guides, so what do they do?  Arm every man and his dog with the information it took us years to learn.  The price guides are the worst thing ever to happen to the collecting scene.

May be Pete, remember I spent 5 years trawling the States BEFORE the guide........HAPPY DAYS...but the scourge then was "THE YELLOW BOOK" , Music Master price guide, a £10 UK record could appear in there at $100 ! ???

Swings and round a bouts I bet you've had something that was a high value in the book that you though was cheap ?

Records are all about supply and demand, if I buy something its because I want it !

Everyone likes a bargain, I went to a dealer in Alabama who had everything with a price on from Johns guide..he said he'd sell at 1/3 that price ! Some still were not worth bothering with ! lol 

Rob

[Guest]

The UK record dealers were very clever to put out price guides.

They were going to be seriously undercut by USA dealers selling records on Ebay at low bargain prices to collectors.

They had to wise up the USA sellers to the price's or they were going to be out of business.

They made money from the UK collectors by selling them price guides, and at the same time let the USA sellers know what prices they could get for the records, so it raised the USA prices to the UK level.

Only the poor collector was the loser in all this because it keeps the prices high!

[Pete S]

The UK record dealers were very clever to put out price guides.

They were going to be seriously undercut by USA dealers selling records on Ebay at low bargain prices to collectors.

They had to wise up the USA sellers to the price's or they were going to be out of business.

They made money from the UK collectors by selling them price guides, and at the same time let the USA sellers know what prices they could get for the records, so it raised the USA prices to the UK level.

Only the poor collector was the loser in all this because it keeps the prices high!

 

At last someone gets it!

[Labeat]

In the early 70's your Andersons, Raistricks etc were importing vinyl by the Ton, the sellers at the time let them go for a pittance

probably thinking.... "Jeez, are these Limey's for real". Fast forward 30 years and it's big business, it's not that we raped & pillaged

just that the stockists were glad to get rid, just unfortunate they missed a trick. I would never have imagined the Yank collectors

paying top prices to redeem what came from them in the beginning, thats a bitter pill to swallow!

[Scal]

Wasn't just Groove City/Soul Bowl....Global Records in Manchester, FL Moores in Leighton Buzzard, Selectadisc in Nottingham, Contempo on Hanway Street....Blackgrape.....Record Corner....Jim Dobbs-Oldham/Huddersfield/Bradford markets.

There were loads and loads of imports here....the initial "heads up" for the American dealers was when some Brits started putting adverts in 'Goldmine' and 'Discoveries' saying that they would pay X amount for specific titles.