After seeing the comments on the JM auction thread I thought that the rarity of the Velours issue had proved itself after so few turning up in so many years. 

 

Lets not forget that its more or less every month that a mint Shrine record hits the market.

 

Back in the day records like the Tomangos, Cashmeres and even Mel Britt were common.

Rob Smith and Chris king had box counties of Mel Britt offloading it at £5 a go. 

 

JM Millionaires book states that there are around 25 known copies world wide of the Devotions - Do do de dop, when that book was printed I knew of 4 copies in Nottingham and even 2 on my street. How are these numbers worked out and how accurate are they

 

When Gwen Owen came to the UK first time she brought with her 4 copies of Wanted and Needed. Two had identical run out track info and two were totally individual, this stating that there were at least 3 pressing machines up and running, we know it takes about 10 seconds to turn a vinyl donut into a pressed record so just how many were made. Yes I know 95% could of been used as ballast on a ship to Hong Kong and yes i do except that it is extremely rear. Just makes me wonder how many there was to start with.

 

When the soul collection pensions cash in I think the true quantity of records mat be realized and the real rare records will be even more valuable 

 

Any thoughts 

 

  On 05/07/2014 at 07:53, Ian Dewhirst said:

But what about the Japanese? 

 

I was over there in 1976 and tended to compete with those pesky Japanese diggers who seemed to be hitting the same places as me but taking everything! There's been a few occasions when I've walked in a shop, seen a Japanese guy with a big stack of interesting looking records and thought 'forget it'. I once had a tug of war with a Japanese guy over a Little Charles on Botanic at a great shop in Madison, Wisconsin. Ridiculous. I used to hate having to get up @ 4.00am for record fairs simply to be there at the same time as the Japanese guys with the the U-Haul trucks 'cos they would just buy everything and load it. That's why Dave Flynn consistently turns up good stuff in Japan. There's TONS of it over there believe me.

 

So it wasn't just us Northern Soulers that were raping and pillaging your records Robb! 

 

Ian D 

Yes. I used to see many Japanese fellows grabbing Soul and also R&B records from our main sources, and even the little shops.  And a few Belgians and Germans and Swiss, as well.

Its always nice to have a record that turns out to be rare, but TBH I would rather have a good record than a rare record, if its great & rare then bingo !!!.

 

Best Russ

I say well done to those early pioneers of soul searching. The likes of Anderton, Rastrick, Roberts, Wherry, Crosdell and many more spent there hard earned cash on expensive flights and traveled to dangerous places just to hopefully find a forgotten gem(S). All in the name of the UK soul scene. Now the world has witnessed our great discovery 

 

Snooze you loose  

  On 05/07/2014 at 07:41, Ian Dewhirst said:

I guess what's interesting is trying to gauge roughly how many copies of a record are in the country and, hence, what constitutes 'rare'? Here's table I knocked up earlier:-

 

Holy Grail - 1-2 copies

Ultra Rare - 2-10 copies

Super Rare - 10 - 30 copies

Very Rare - 30 - 50 copies

Rare - 50 - 100 copies

Collectors Staple 100-500 copies

 

All a bit of fun and totally subjective of course. I would have put Mel Britt in the 'Very Rare' category but, yikes, it appears that it could a dreaded 'Collectors Staple' which means that far too many people have it thus making it somewhat less desirable than "I'm Gone" which is a proper Ultra Rare.  

 

Can't be piddling around with a Mel Britt original anymore dammit. You could build a house with the amount of originals that are knocking around.......

 

Ian D 

WOW !

That looks so well structured that it could almost be the new Goldmine guide to rarity ?

Well done for coming up with such a sensible order Ian ...I now know I have a box full of rare ,very rare,ultra rare ,super rare and possibly a holy grail

  On 05/07/2014 at 07:24, RobbK said:

Well, I would say that I only came across a few Brit Soul record hunters in USA before 1977, but from 1977-1984 there were very many.  Those I saw most were Nev Wherry, Bob "Larry" Wagner, Rod Shard, Dave Withers, Dave Raistrick, and Martin Koppel regularly raided my favourite place to find records (Detroit).  John Anderson took away loads of great records from our Chicago warehouses.  And, I had heard from the owners of many of my regular shops and warehouses that "I sold out the lot to a British guy", or some British guys came in here for 3 days and bought hundreds.  After 1984, I was mainly in Europe, and didn't look for records in USA at all.  But the US collectors I knew still DID have that attitude towards what The British in The NS were doing to the chances of our hard core Soul collectors (including many Black Soul fans) finding any decent non-hit Soul records with at least one fast or fast mid-tempo side.  Luckily, at that time, The Soulies were still not interested in slower mid-tempos and "beat ballads".  Now, they like just about all Soul.  So, they are competing with us regular general Soul fans for EVERYTHING.

Yep, these were the early pioneers and making trips during the peak years of Wigan. I never knew the late Nev Wherry but have bumped into Rod in Philadelphia and bought from Dave Withers in Britain. Martin Koppel was in the wonderful position of being in Canada and could just pop over the border to shop in Detroit and Chicago, then send his finds across to Tim. Nowadays, most really serious collectors have tripped over to the US at some stage grabbing up-tempo then mid-tempo, beat ballad and more recently RnB, generally speaking, always ahead of US based collectors. I think the view here in Britain is there are too few US collectors to spoil things too badly but just enough to allow a steady trickle of scarce records across the pond.

Shrine  -  Classed by many as the rarest label in the world.

 

Tap Shrine into the search tool on popsike 

  On 05/07/2014 at 07:41, Ian Dewhirst said:

I guess what's interesting is trying to gauge roughly how many copies of a record are in the country and, hence, what constitutes 'rare'? Here's table I knocked up earlier:-

 

Holy Grail - 1-2 copies

Ultra Rare - 2-10 copies

Super Rare - 10 - 30 copies

Very Rare - 30 - 50 copies

Rare - 50 - 100 copies

Collectors Staple 100-500 copies

 

All a bit of fun and totally subjective of course. I would have put Mel Britt in the 'Very Rare' category but, yikes, it appears that it could a dreaded 'Collectors Staple' which means that far too many people have it thus making it somewhat less desirable than "I'm Gone" which is a proper Ultra Rare.  

 

Can't be piddling around with a Mel Britt original anymore dammit. You could build a house with the amount of originals that are knocking around.......

 

Ian D 

Well put Ian. John tried to do something similar with symbols in the Million Dollars book. I think the phrase Holy Grail should be left back where it belongs in a Monty Python film though. As Russ says, better to have a good record than a rare record so the quality rating is more significant than the rarity quotient. I have dozens and dozens of unlisted sounds but none of them get close to the Mello Souls.

  On 05/07/2014 at 10:21, NEV said:

WOW !

That looks so well structured that it could almost be the new Goldmine guide to rarity ?

Well done for coming up with such a sensible order Ian ...I now know I have a box full of rare ,very rare,ultra rare ,super rare and possibly a holy grail

and I have a box full of Shite (although it's not in the listing) 

  On 05/07/2014 at 06:01, east rob said:

Romping! 

Hi Russ.

The guy who used to top up jukeboxes. Would that be Pat Bromley by any chance? That guy had a dream of a job in the mid seventies.

he used to find records everywhere.

  On 04/07/2014 at 14:18, Mick Boyle said:

Lets not forget that the foreign market is getting bigger every day, especially Japan. Im told that the majority of the big stuff that hits the market is send abroad

Hopefully enough to keep our beloved dealers in business  

 

You're 100% right Mick

 

I sell a lot of stuff on Discogs and many of the buyers are not members on here - top buying countries for me are Japan, USA, Germany and the Scandinavian countries. Obviously there are still a good number of UK buyers but those from the other countries above are increasing.

  On 05/07/2014 at 07:41, Ian Dewhirst said:

I guess what's interesting is trying to gauge roughly how many copies of a record are in the country and, hence, what constitutes 'rare'? Here's table I knocked up earlier:-

 

Holy Grail - 1-2 copies

Ultra Rare - 2-10 copies

Super Rare - 10 - 30 copies

Very Rare - 30 - 50 copies

Rare - 50 - 100 copies

Collectors Staple 100-500 copies

 

All a bit of fun and totally subjective of course. I would have put Mel Britt in the 'Very Rare' category but, yikes, it appears that it could a dreaded 'Collectors Staple' which means that far too many people have it thus making it somewhat less desirable than "I'm Gone" which is a proper Ultra Rare.  

 

Can't be piddling around with a Mel Britt original anymore dammit. You could build a house with the amount of originals that are knocking around.......

 

Ian D 

 

 

I think the Holy Grail section should be wider, most Holy Grails seem to have around 1-5 copies.

Rare is the most over used word on this scene - often used to describe records that are temporarily in demand, but which also exist in quantity.

 

Mel Britt - wasn't it legally re-presed in the late 70s, with a wider ZTSC stamper? 

  On 07/07/2014 at 19:18, Steve G said:

Rare is the most over used word on this scene - often used to describe records that are temporarily in demand, but which also exist in quantity.

 

Mel Britt - wasn't it legally re-presed in the late 70s, with a wider ZTSC stamper? 

 

The one with the white-rim around the label presumably? 

 

Ian D   

Edited July 7, 201410 yr by Ian Dewhirst

  On 07/07/2014 at 19:18, Steve G said:

Rare is the most over used word on this scene - often used to describe records that are temporarily in demand, but which also exist in quantity.

 

Mel Britt - wasn't it legally re-presed in the late 70s, with a wider ZTSC stamper? 

 

Don't think those are legal Steve, they are made to look as if they are.

I don't ever remember seeing a cheap Mel Britt by the way, in reply to further back above.

  On 07/07/2014 at 20:04, Pete S said:

Don't think those are legal Steve, they are made to look as if they are.

I don't ever remember seeing a cheap Mel Britt by the way, in reply to further back above.

 

Other than the ones Rob smith had, neither have I Pete - is that because that initial quantity was just swallowed up never to be seen again? Mine was in my collection until I sold up in 2000. I am guessing those lucky enough to snap one up did much the same.

  On 07/07/2014 at 20:40, Rich B said:

Other than the ones Rob smith had, neither have I Pete - is that because that initial quantity was just swallowed up never to be seen again? Mine was in my collection until I sold up in 2000. I am guessing those lucky enough to snap one up did much the same.

 

Trouble is, it's so long ago now - people don't believe it when I saw we used to buy John Bowie, Admirations (Paree) and Ringleaders for £3 each from Pep - but he had so many copies that we thought they were bootlegs/pressings.  I've had them come to me in collections as pressings.

  On 07/07/2014 at 20:04, Pete S said:

Don't think those are legal Steve, they are made to look as if they are.

I don't ever remember seeing a cheap Mel Britt by the way, in reply to further back above.

 

Yep makes sense. Interesting they got em pressed at Columbia tho'. I wonder if some people are confusing the two, with all these tales of it being a cheap 45?.

  On 07/07/2014 at 20:48, Pete S said:

Trouble is, it's so long ago now - people don't believe it when I saw we used to buy John Bowie, Admirations (Paree) and Ringleaders for £3 each from Pep - but he had so many copies that we thought they were bootlegs/pressings.  I've had them come to me in collections as pressings.

 

I know just what you mean Pete - Poke once told me that they had so many Chandlers at Soul Bowl that if one fell on the floor they didn't even step over it!

  On 08/07/2014 at 06:44, Steve G said:

Yep makes sense. Interesting they got em pressed at Columbia tho'. I wonder if some people are confusing the two, with all these tales of it being a cheap 45?.

 

Some might be Steve, but mine was the real deal - I think mine was the only demo in the pile - never even noticed at the time though - just wanted to get it home and play it!

The original Mel Britt 45 has a slightly darker label , no white border and the run out groove stamp is in a different place to the bootleg .Sold mine in 1995 to the Frost brothers from Leicester , along with Bobby Kline and Kenny Wells .Seemed a good deal at the time , well the scene was dying wasn't it ..ouch ...

Cleared some vinyl out 2 years ago. Mel Britt 70s copy was the 1st to sell and was asked for by almost everyone who knew I was selling.

A lot went on ebay and I was shocked to see 70 reissues like Gloria Jones CGWM - Milliannairs YGTLYB and Porgy and the Monarcs MHCFY easily out sold originals like Ben Zine - Tymes HSC and Chaumonts INYL (Bay sound) 

 

Why is a boot so much in demand. when theirs perfectly good original records available at a lower price.

Are these boots now Rare

I think Steve G hit the nail on the head with - Rare is the most over used word.

  On 04/07/2014 at 18:47, LEN said:

......and in some cases they would be correct  

 

Len  

especially if they,d heard em at your do

SURELY the 'rarest' 45 has to be the mint unplayed copy of Nolan Chance on Bunky that i 'unearthed' in Australia 3 years ago for a fiver?   I am taliking about rarity here NOT value.

Only one J.M. knew of at the time i showed him it.

Its tucked away in one of the U.K. collectors boxes now, who, i cant divulge.    Value in todays auction.?      ..who knows.

  On 08/07/2014 at 13:55, suinoz said:

SURELY the 'rarest' 45 has to be the mint unplayed copy of Nolan Chance on Bunky that i 'unearthed' in Australia 3 years ago for a fiver?   I am taliking about rarity here NOT value.

Only one J.M. knew of at the time i showed him it.

Its tucked away in one of the U.K. collectors boxes now, who, i cant divulge.    Value in todays auction.?      ..who knows.

 

Absolutely super rare - but -

Didn't set the world on fire though on his auction and doubt if it would now just a short time after.

If my memory serves me correctly, didn't the story go - About 8 copies were pressed up with the Bunky label on and they were sent to personal friends from the label owner.

Not making it Holy Grail if true

 

Fantastic find  and yes im jealous 

From what i gathered at the time there were only three personal copies pressed on the Bunky label. If J.M. reads the thread he may confirm that.  I know Richard Searling had one in 1973 but that went awol, the second copy ???? and the one i found.  Holy Grail is whats left now, surely, not what was pressed?? i Funny but i don't even own a record now. Moved on.

  On 08/07/2014 at 14:19, suinoz said:

From what i gathered at the time there were only three personal copies pressed on the Bunky label. If J.M. reads the thread he may confirm that.  I know Richard Searling had one in 1973 but that went awol, the second copy ???? and the one i found.  Holy Grail is whats left now, surely, not what was pressed?? i Funny but i don't even own a record now. Moved on.

A copy of darrel banks has just been found on a LONDON issue.........only known copy  so far......thought not even to exist

  On 08/07/2014 at 14:19, suinoz said:

From what i gathered at the time there were only three personal copies pressed on the Bunky label. If J.M. reads the thread he may confirm that.  I know Richard Searling had one in 1973 but that went awol, the second copy ???? and the one i found.  Holy Grail is whats left now, surely, not what was pressed?? i Funny but i don't even own a record now. Moved on.

 

One of my collector friend's from Mansfield told me some 10 years ago about the NC on Bunky that he had.Didn't bother me at the time,until your find.

I rang him with your info on it,he said he'd sold it a few years back,but wouldn't say where it went or how much.No reason not to believe him,so that's 2 copies accounted for.

  On 08/07/2014 at 14:19, suinoz said:

From what i gathered at the time there were only three personal copies pressed on the Bunky label. If J.M. reads the thread he may confirm that.  I know Richard Searling had one in 1973 but that went awol, the second copy ???? and the one i found.  Holy Grail is whats left now, surely, not what was pressed?? i Funny but i don't even own a record now. Moved on.

Yep sounds like Holy Grail to me 

  On 04/07/2014 at 15:14, RobbK said:

I think what a lot of you Brits fail to realise is that a lot of Americans (and even Canadians) were buying this Soul music (yes, even the cutouts and uncharted unbacked releases, and small garage studio releases).  I've heard many of you say that NOBODY wanted them back then,  But that just isn't true. MANY people I knew had collecting taste the same as I, and they searched the Ghetto record shops, thrift stores, junk stores, book stores, furniture stores, Black families homes, contacted ex producers, etc.  Not all of these collectors are known.  Many of them kept their whole collections, but dropped ut of active collecting before The Internet came in.  I know a lot of people my age who still won't deal with learning how to use computers and The Internet.  Their record collections will continue to surface as they die or their houses are sold and they move to "Old Folks' care homes" or they die. 

 

I knew a LOT of collectors back in the '60s and '70s who were buying such records.  More and more will be surfacing now that we are starting to get old and many of us are passing away.  Now, it is different, because we have The Internet and e-bay.  No one's great R & B/Soul collection will be tossed away by an ignorant group of children of a major collector.  So, a lot of records that you've only known a handful of copies in Britain, will be seeing several more coming to auction every year or every few years.

 

 

Over the last few years ive bought a lot of doo wop / R n B /northern crossover as most of the die hard collectors of R n B doo wop collectors are now dead and their collections now appear on ebay etc via estate auctions as you said the ignorance of the children only interested in money in the pocket and the estates have to be disposded of post haste, Or they cant get that new car  / house / etc.

Must admit that i would never be able to have bought these ten years ago at these prices and and now are worth double what ive paid for them or more sometimes 10 times worth or more, luckily

  On 04/07/2014 at 15:29, Quinvy said:

 

Edited July 19, 201410 yr by Lenny Harkins

Without any doubt whatsoever the Japanese collectors have outstripped the UK buyers in collecting circles.

I personally know of Japanese dealers who pay a fee for USA buyers to trawl record fairs/ warehouses / clearances to purchase in bulk.

They hoovered up in the late 70 's early 80 's on 45's no one wanted at the time.

I had x 2 spare Doc Peabody 45 ' s ( check Steve G 's old Blackbeat ) for a review - no takers here - both sold to Japan.

They have always been way way ahead of the game...

And now I find out there's two issues of the Salvadors

 

The plot thickens 

Rarity can lie in the fact that some records seldom come up for sale although scores exist. In his book "The Record Men" (about the very early days of Chess records), Rich Cohen writes that Leonard Chess would run off 3000 copies of every released disc. This was in the mid 50's before Chuck Berry and Bo Diddley arrived at the company.

  On 04/07/2014 at 12:24, Mick Boyle said:

Spot on Len - Been there two many times

 

Just to add insult to injury

Rumors, fables and stories around the turn tables.

Were that Chris King turned up to a Notts Pally alldayer with that many Mel Brits he used a small trailer. 

"‹All original found on a trip to the States 

"‹I can not verify this and don't want to start a Mel Britt argument

Its obviously supply and demand that justifies the prices (but) if there are lots safely tucked away in 

collections then cometh the day - Who knows

I was at that Palais all dayer and bought a Mel Britt, it was common knowledge they were bootlegs.

  On 19/07/2014 at 12:11, glynthornhill said:

Without any doubt whatsoever the Japanese collectors have outstripped the UK buyers in collecting circles.

I personally know of Japanese dealers who pay a fee for USA buyers to trawl record fairs/ warehouses / clearances to purchase in bulk.

They hoovered up in the late 70 's early 80 's on 45's no one wanted at the time.

I had x 2 spare Doc Peabody 45 ' s ( check Steve G 's old Blackbeat ) for a review - no takers here - both sold to Japan.

They have always been way way ahead of the game...

If it's any consolation, I do my best to balance things up and am selling the discs mostly back to the UK...including a Doc Peabody!

  On 26/07/2014 at 15:53, ulyssees said:

I was at that Palais all dayer and bought a Mel Britt, it was common knowledge they were bootlegs.

Yes they were defiantly boots for sale but the one Rob Smith was selling were 100% gen

 

Also found out that he had A demo with some issues 

Edited July 27, 201410 yr by Mick Boyle