John Manships 'rarest Of The Rare'

[Denbo]

Not much more to say than that really.

And don't just come back at me with the comment, "They're rare".

Elaborate.

No offence to John, I respect the guy enormously, this is not a swipe at him or his site and all the hard work put in by himself and his hard working staff, just the ever growing list of so-called rare records that are listed. But let's be honest now, a lot of them are really crap aren't they and must only be there simply 'cos they're rare, but not necessarily good?

I mean, perhaps they're rare because they were crap when they first came out and all but a few somehow escaped getting binned, trashed, melted down, burnt at the stake, etc, which makes those that are left, RARE.

Has anybody gone through the whole lot and actually listened to them all? I've been doing so for a few nights now and am so far very disappointed. NOT at all the hard work John has put into populating the list and making it available for us all to see and listen to, but by what is considered good enough to be included in the list.

There, I'd better stop now before I go too far and inadvertantly offend somebody with my own personal opinions and observations. Just thought I'd share that thought with you all to see what kind of feedback / reaction I get. Forums are about stimulating thought and opinions. Lets have some.

[Wally Francis]

I have said the same for some years now RARE does not = good or great in the majority.

[Guest smigger]

Absolutely agree on all accounts. Can't elaborate coz you took the words straight out of my mouth.

As a mate remarked 25 years ago: Some are rare for a reason.

[steve z]

Not much more to say than that really.

And don't just come back at me with the comment, "They're rare".

Elaborate.

No offence to John, I respect the guy enormously, this is not a swipe at him or his site and all the hard work put in by himself and his hard working staff, just the ever growing list of so-called rare records that are listed. But let's be honest now, a lot of them are really crap aren't they and must only be there simply 'cos they're rare, but not necessarily good?

I mean, perhaps they're rare because they were crap when they first came out and all but a few somehow escaped getting binned, trashed, melted down, burnt at the stake, etc, which makes those that are left, RARE.

Has anybody gone through the whole lot and actually listened to them all? I've been doing so for a few nights now and am so far very disappointed. NOT at all the hard work John has put into populating the list and making it available for us all to see and listen to, but by what is considered good enough to be included in the list.

There, I'd better stop now before I go too far and inadvertantly offend somebody with my own personal opinions and observations. Just thought I'd share that thought with you all to see what kind of feedback / reaction I get. Forums are about stimulating thought and opinions. Lets have some.

Hi I take the point about rarity...others may not know..whether rare or not.....BUT a chance to listen....and decide if its your cuppa .ATB Stevie

[Guest Bearsy]

I do agree with your thoughts and opinion but i thinks it could be classed as rare as hens teeth as thier is collectors out there with a bit of dosh and they love to have something no one else has which then puts the price war into practise, also the dj`s who are looking for that new find or rare find to play at a soul event and then the shite dj`s who only play to show off thier box to other dj`s who are not in touch with the floor in front of them,

well something like that anyway if you know what i mean,

[Quinvy]

I agree with you that the quality of some of the tunes leaves a lot to be desired. But I find the site very useful as a reference. And I have played some and not liked them, only to hear them played out and thought wow that sounds awesome. There are also tunes that you need to hear a few times before they grow on you.......

So I'm very greatful to John for the site, I just wish you could hear ALL the tune.

[John Reed]

John Manship's "Rarest Of the Rare" is a great window on the world of "Indemand and rare records". It's probably the only time you will hear them sober.

The likes of Bobby Reed, Time is Right, which in the late 80's early 90's were selling for about £25, the same can be said for Beloyd, Jimmy J Barnes and Sideshow (these always used to sell for about a fiver) with dealers having multiple copies. Rare or Indemand? The flowers repressing was readily available for £5, but I'm not sure how many were pressed (500?), so you need to compare the number of collectors vs the number of copies pressed. These records attract a premium and that is probably why they are on there.

On another thread, we discussed the rarity of Geater Davis' Breath Taking Girl vs Where Ever You Are. It is acknowledged that "Where Ever You Are" is rarer, but less in demand and therefore half the price. Phil Flowers Stay a While on ICI, was probably only available as a new release from Soul Bowl for about 2 weeks, when all the copies were gone, they were gone, but as it's a ballad and probably not really indemand.

On the rare records, we have a good dose of Shrine and other Northern rarities, as it should be, but only one copy on South Camp and Quinvy. IMO, these are truly rare records. Local label releases are probably justified. Angel by David Sea, was in many a collection, with most people unaware that it came out on Hy-Tide first, well I was. The Almeta Latimore issue of These Memories seems to be quite rare, records that may have has some good responses to justify an issue which then died on release for whatever reason.

It's swings and roundabouts, if something is indemand and demand outways supply, I suppose it is rare, even if a dealer has a box of 1,000. It's availability in the open market that counts. That was the situation with Audio on Mote, a big ticket tune until more copies became available the price dropped and it is no longer classed as a rare tune. A thing that seems not to happen these days.

Even though IMO not all of the records on the "Rarest of the Rare" are completely rare, it's still good to be able to look and here it.

[Mark Bicknell]

Funny old game this rare? soul collecting lark, i would just like to through one point into the mix here, often it seems to me some records have a real buzz about them when there are only a handful of copies around, then the chase is on, prices go up as demand is created then a twenty five count box turns up and the interest seems to go, is it not about the quality of a tune rather than how much it costs?, a good example of this is Lorraine Rudolph, ok not a mega hard to find record to start with but pure quality be it a fiver or two hundred pounds, the mother load was found several years ago just means more people can own a good record rather than a rare record, big difference, i guess my point is does it really matter if they are ultra rare or not, we are dealing with basically commercial flops at the original time of release anyway, perhaps more the case when the records are hot is to pay your money and take a chance!

John provides us with the chance to listen to many of the hard to find records on his site which is a good thing for point of reference etc.yes some are the Kings New Cloths kind of ethic and if you want to follow trends etc. i.e. some of the tunes which on the surface appear rare then turn out to be nothing more than DJ hype then who's fault is that, not John's i feel he is simply relaying information nothing more.

On the other hand if you spend time on John's site you will find some blinding under £50.00 records which in terms of being the real deal and of a quality should feature alongside the so called rare items, it's already been said here that rare does not always mean good, i could list some examples but not all will agree, nail on the head there what's good for one it not always good for the next man and that is i guess what drives us to collect.

Regards - Mark Bicknell.

[Denbo]

Not much more to say than that really.

And don't just come back at me with the comment, "They're rare".

Elaborate.

No offence to John, I respect the guy enormously, this is not a swipe at him or his site and all the hard work put in by himself and his hard working staff, just the ever growing list of so-called rare records that are listed. But let's be honest now, a lot of them are really crap aren't they and must only be there simply 'cos they're rare, but not necessarily good?

I mean, perhaps they're rare because they were crap when they first came out and all but a few somehow escaped getting binned, trashed, melted down, burnt at the stake, etc, which makes those that are left, RARE.

Has anybody gone through the whole lot and actually listened to them all? I've been doing so for a few nights now and am so far very disappointed. NOT at all the hard work John has put into populating the list and making it available for us all to see and listen to, but by what is considered good enough to be included in the list.

There, I'd better stop now before I go too far and inadvertantly offend somebody with my own personal opinions and observations. Just thought I'd share that thought with you all to see what kind of feedback / reaction I get. Forums are about stimulating thought and opinions. Lets have some.

Okay. Good reaction.

Couple of points however;

1. I said right from the start that this was in no way a swipe at John Manship, in fact I've already said that he and his staff do a wonderful job of making all this information available to us all. For which I am very grateful. He doesn't have to do it but he does, for the love of the music. So once again, I congratulate John Manship and his staff. And lets face it, we couldn't have this discussion if they weren't there, could we?

2. In a way, I'm quite pleased that a lot of these rare records are crap. Up until now I thought I was missing out on something but I'm not. And it also means that I can sift through the few that I DID like and despite their rarity, stand a chance of getting a few, providing of course I can come up with the dosh, or cunjure up some remarkable good luck. Imagine how I'd feel if ALL the records on the Rarest of the Rare were brilliant, that would be disheartening as a collector, I wouldn't stand a dogs chance of collecting them all would I? As it stands, I feel the few that I really liked could be within grasp before I snuff it. Mind you, I'd have to sell a few out of my collection to fund the quest, my wages will never go THAT far.

3. Once I've been through the whole of the Rarest of the Rare list, just to satisfy my curiosity, as Mark Bicknell pointed out, I will be going through everything else on his site that offers a soundbyte because therein lie the true quality Soul and R&B records, many of which are latent monsters and as yet undiscovered gems of the future.

Thanks for reading my views everybody and for your feedback, the posting was well worth the effort.

[Steve G]

Think rarest of the rare is a valuable reference, and interesting.

The next one in the series is the "Best of the Best" - but hey, you know what we'll all start arguing about what's included / excluded at that point.

[Denbo]

Think rarest of the rare is a valuable reference, and interesting.

I agree wholeheartedly.

The next one in the series is the "Best of the Best" - but hey, you know what we'll all start arguing about what's included / excluded at that point.

Probably

[Guest]

i have enjoyed the r-o-t-r site for many a year,and seen the add ons appear,a lot of it in my opinion are rock and roll b sides or very boring doo wop,it strikes me that they are purpose add ons for future collecting that are quite honestly the dregs that are left at the bottom of the barrel,i mean is northern soul dead,because it must be if this is the crap of the future.

sorry to sound dead beat,we would be better off concentrating on the cheaper end of the scale and be less concerned with"if its expensive then it must be good"

[Pete S]

Here's a record I bought off ebay on sunday, I couldn't believe no one else bid on it. It may not be fashionable these days but it was a nice little spin in it's time and it must be mega-rare as a white demo. The only other one I've seen is on the rarest of the rare site.

[Dave Moore]

Pete-S said:

Here's a record I bought off ebay on sunday, I couldn't believe no one else bid on it. It may not be fashionable these days but it was a nice little spin in it's time and it must be mega-rare as a white demo. The only other one I've seen is on the rarest of the rare site.

They'e around Pete, seen quite a few. Nice on a W/Demo though as you say. I still give it a whirl once in a while. MASSIVE in the heyday eh? Value? 100 nicker?

Regards,

Dave

www.theresthatbeat.com

www.hitsvillesoulclub.com

[Billy Freemantle]

Here's a record I bought off ebay on sunday, I couldn't believe no one else bid on it. It may not be fashionable these days but it was a nice little spin in it's time and it must be mega-rare as a white demo. The only other one I've seen is on the rarest of the rare site.

Lovely record.

[Soul-slider]

I see 'Frank Foster & L.A Untouchables - My Assurance' is in the book, not well known at all and some people don't really go a bundle on it...personally I love it! I paid/traded about £80 for it several years ago so was surprised to see it in there.I would'nt let it go, it's one of my favourites.I know there's another version by Lee Harvey, but I love the rawness of Frank's.

[Pete S]

They'e around Pete, seen quite a few. Nice on a W/Demo though as you say. I still give it a whirl once in a while. MASSIVE in the heyday eh? Value? 100 nicker?

Regards,

Dave

www.theresthatbeat.com

www.hitsvillesoulclub.com

Dave - this is the only one I've ever seen so I wouldn't say they're around exactly. One recently sold in auction for 400 quid apparently.

[Glyn Williams]

bit cabaret tho innit pete

[Pete S]

bit cabaret tho innit pete

Harsh!

[Guest]

Dave - this is the only one I've ever seen so I wouldn't say they're around exactly. One recently sold in auction for 400 quid apparently.

Lydia Marcelle - White Demo We auctioned a whitedemo 11 months ago in Mint minus clean label, it went for £260 : far too cheap you should get £350 / £400. You don't see them too often.. The stock copy we had several 100 of when I had that Dallas find of Dover distributed records in 1978. And the red stock is now very hard to locate ..£150 ish

As for Rarest Of The Rare, we try present vinyl you don't see or have little chance of hearing or has interesting labels etc. Plus we are not just aimingat the Northern soul market, there are other soul genres inckluded in that area.

Like Steve G. says, it is certainly not a Best Of The Best. Which would be full of records everybody knew anyway.

It's just a service to make the site interesting and worth a visiting.

[Wiganer1]

Lydia Marcelle - White Demo We auctioned a whitedemo 11 months ago in Mint minus clean label, it went for £260 : far too cheap you should get £350 / £400. You don't see them too often.. The stock copy we had several 100 of when I had that Dallas find of Dover distributed records in 1978. And the red stock is now very hard to locate ..£150 ish

As for Rarest Of The Rare, we try present vinyl you don't see or have little chance of hearing or has interesting labels etc. Plus we are not just aimingat the Northern soul market, there are other soul genres inckluded in that area.

Like Steve G. says, it is certainly not a Best Of The Best. Which would be full of records everybody knew anyway.

It's just a service to make the site interesting and worth a visiting.

#

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ive played lydia a few times at the marrs barr niter...only got a red issue but a nice oldie none the less...

johns site is superb imo ,,and has got something for everybody

as is the man himself been buying from him since i was 17 ,,top bloke

[grant]

I agree with you that the quality of some of the tunes leaves a lot to be desired. But I find the site very useful as a reference. And I have played some and not liked them, only to hear them played out and thought wow that sounds awesome. There are also tunes that you need to hear a few times before they grow on you.......

So I'm very greatful to John for the site, I just wish you could hear ALL the tune.

maybe could have been sub-categorised into Northern, x-over, deep soul etc to make searching/regferencing a bit easier....but good fun to trawl thru' all the same.

[grant]

#

=======

ive played lydia a few times at the marrs barr niter...only got a red issue but a nice oldie none the less...

johns site is superb imo ,,and has got something for everybody

as is the man himself been buying from him since i was 17 ,,top bloke

what's 'Another Kind Of Fellow' on UK Sue like by her? Any good?

[Pete S]

what's 'Another Kind Of Fellow' on UK Sue like by her? Any good?

Pretty similar

#

=======

ive played lydia a few times at the marrs barr niter...only got a red issue but a nice oldie none the less...

johns site is superb imo ,,and has got something for everybody

as is the man himself been buying from him since i was 17 ,,top bloke

Oh gawd, pass the sick bag...

[Wiganer1]

Pretty similar

Oh gawd, pass the sick bag...

==========

ah shaddup smiffy and get me that sidney barnes sorted out!

[Pete S]

==========

ah shaddup smiffy and get me that sidney barnes sorted out!

I'm still looking, honestly.

[Wiganer1]

I'm still looking, honestly.

============

i believe ya

by the way i was clearing my old pc discs the other day and found all your early lists,,have u got these and do u want em saving ?

regards

[Dave Moore]

Dave - this is the only one I've ever seen so I wouldn't say they're around exactly. One recently sold in auction for 400 quid apparently.

Good Lord! Might have to pull mine out and give it a clean then!

Regards,

Dave

www.theresthatbeat.com

www.hitsvillesoulclub.com

[Pete S]

Good Lord! Might have to pull mine out and give it a clean then!

Ooh er Missus..

[Dave Thorley]

I find John's site and books interesting. He offers them as a guide and when used as that, they are very useful. The problem always come when people take the content as gospel. John says the books are a guide and the R-O-R to make the site interesting.

John makes mistakes from time to time with pricing, but don't we all, but he put's alot in that he doesn't always get payback on.

As for quality, that has always been in the ear of the listener. For me some of the very rare 60's tunes can stay rare, as they aren't great tunes, but that is just my opion.

But the number of things that do come to light that I have never seen before, still suprises me and is why I will probably be hooked for life.

60's/70's/80's/90's and beyond soul is all good, well it keeps me happy anyway

Dave