Kegsy Posted June 20, 2014 Posted June 20, 2014 Most accounts of Banks's life and times mention the Donnie Elbert court case which was decided in Elbert's favour - while Banks was still alive. It was held that the Donnie Elbert version of the song had been altered sufficiently to give co-credit, however. It's interesting that while Elbert wrote around 100 songs in his career, Banks has only one songwriting credit to his name. Guess which one. This could suggest that Donnie Elbert actually recorded the song. How else ?, unless Banks just changed some of the lyrics.
Stateside Posted June 20, 2014 Posted June 20, 2014 Yes, I have heard Donnie Elbert's claim to have written the song a long time ago, along with a number of other some fanciful claims. He may well have won a court case over it against an "empty chair" after Banks had been shot dead too.....but I am far from persuaded. I mean we don't have Bank's version to compare now do we. So Donnie has laid his claim on BMI, great, that's proof then -eh? I thought the court case arose at the time, out of the fact that Elbert wanted royalties because the song was a hit. DB didn't get shot until 1970, and the Tyrone Davis album came out in 1969 with both credited as songwriters, surely as a consequence of the court case. So not necessarily an "empty chair" scenario! 1
Liamgp Posted June 20, 2014 Posted June 20, 2014 This could suggest that Donnie Elbert actually recorded the song. How else ?, unless Banks just changed some of the lyrics. Yes, the co-writing credit is based on the change of tempo and some altered lyrics. I don't think there's an Elbert version though. He and DB were friends from Buffalo NY, and Elbert apparently gave the song to DB to sing onstage at the Revilot Lounge, as it suited his style and wasn't aware that he intended to record it - or so the story goes. There's no doubt that it is one of the all-time great soul anthems, so I guess it's pretty pointless discussing who wrote what or when but it helps to make the whole Darrell Banks story complete. 1
Kegsy Posted June 20, 2014 Posted June 20, 2014 (edited) Yes, the co-writing credit is based on the change of tempo and some altered lyrics. I don't think there's an Elbert version though. He and DB were friends from Buffalo NY, and Elbert apparently gave the song to DB to sing onstage at the Revilot Lounge, as it suited his style and wasn't aware that he intended to record it - or so the story goes. There's no doubt that it is one of the all-time great soul anthems, so I guess it's pretty pointless discussing who wrote what or when but it helps to make the whole Darrell Banks story complete. Well that's a relief at least I wont have to try and sort out yet another version of the song, think I have 3 already. Edited June 20, 2014 by Kegsy
Stateside Posted June 20, 2014 Posted June 20, 2014 Other versions of OTDTYH, to my knowledge.... Jackie Wilson Tyrone Davis The Capitols Betty Wright Chris Farlowe Little Milton Willie Clayton Gregory Isaacs Lew Kirton
Sheep Posted June 20, 2014 Posted June 20, 2014 Have we established that there is just the ONE copy here, the circumstances of this find could lend itself to multiple copies in one box ?
Bo Diddley Posted June 20, 2014 Posted June 20, 2014 Other versions of OTDTYH, to my knowledge.... Jackie Wilson Tyrone Davis The Capitols Betty Wright Chris Farlowe Little Milton Willie Clayton Gregory Isaacs Lew Kirton Add: - Sonny Munro The Mob
Swifty Posted June 20, 2014 Posted June 20, 2014 Other versions of OTDTYH, to my knowledge.... Jackie Wilson Tyrone Davis The Capitols Betty Wright Chris Farlowe Little Milton Willie Clayton Gregory Isaacs Lew Kirton Doni Burdick Major Lance Sonny Monroe
Russ29 Posted June 20, 2014 Posted June 20, 2014 Other versions of OTDTYH, to my knowledge.... Jackie Wilson Tyrone Davis The Capitols Betty Wright Chris Farlowe Little Milton Willie Clayton Gregory Isaacs Lew Kirton Freddie Scott titled "Open Up The Door To Your Heart" 1
Steve G Posted June 20, 2014 Posted June 20, 2014 Most accounts of Banks's life and times mention the Donnie Elbert court case which was decided in Elbert's favour - while Banks was still alive. It was held that the Donnie Elbert version of the song had been altered sufficiently to give co-credit, however. It's interesting that while Elbert wrote around 100 songs in his career, Banks has only one songwriting credit to his name. Guess which one. OK fair enough. But Elbert has also laid claim to things he clearly wasn't involved in.....back to the record - it's only a record :lol:
John Reed Posted June 20, 2014 Posted June 20, 2014 (edited) Other versions of OTDTYH, to my knowledge.... Jackie Wilson Tyrone Davis The Capitols Betty Wright Chris Farlowe Little Milton Willie Clayton Gregory Isaacs Lew Kirton There was a thread Edited June 20, 2014 by John Reed
Pete S Posted June 21, 2014 Posted June 21, 2014 The Guardian are almost certainly doing a piece on this on Monday. Bob Stanley's writing it. Asked me if I could put him in touch with Nick. 1
LLM Posted June 21, 2014 Posted June 21, 2014 What is the big deal on what label the song is on when you can find it on another label for thousands less?
Pete S Posted June 21, 2014 Posted June 21, 2014 What is the big deal on what label the song is on when you can find it on another label for thousands less? Seriously? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Record_collecting 3
Sheldonsoul Posted June 21, 2014 Posted June 21, 2014 What is the big deal on what label the song is on when you can find it on another label for thousands less? Oh dear are you new to this site ? 1
Cheapsiderecords Posted June 21, 2014 Posted June 21, 2014 What is the big deal on what label the song is on when you can find it on another label for thousands less? Oh dear!
Guest Jimmy Scriv Posted June 21, 2014 Posted June 21, 2014 I've been on Soul Source a number of years and think this is one of the best threads ever. Some great input and I have found it enthralling. Makes a change from the usual fancy dress and ovo stuff. Well done Nick and thanks
LLM Posted June 21, 2014 Posted June 21, 2014 Seriously? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Record_collectingyesSo what there were not many pressed on a certain label. I still don't see the big deal with what label it is on if you can get the same song from the same time period on another label.
Mal C Posted June 21, 2014 Posted June 21, 2014 (edited) yes So what there were not many pressed on a certain label. I still don't see the big deal with what label it is on if you can get the same song from the same time period on another label. Two camps mate, both love the music, but one is addicted to collecting the original records as well, I think you can guess where were at on this thread... But its all fun, and utterly exhilarating for some, me I'll have to dream of finding a WD on Aussie Stateside, because that doesn't exist as a 45 except only in my imagination, and cause I dont collect British... Malcolm Edited June 21, 2014 by Mal C
Drewtg Posted June 21, 2014 Posted June 21, 2014 yes So what there were not many pressed on a certain label. I still don't see the big deal with what label it is on if you can get the same song from the same time period on another label. If I were you I'd get me coat mate. No offence
Trev Thomas Posted June 21, 2014 Posted June 21, 2014 yes So what there were not many pressed on a certain label. I still don't see the big deal with what label it is on if you can get the same song from the same time period on another label. think you're on the wrong website mate
Sheldonsoul Posted June 21, 2014 Posted June 21, 2014 yes So what there were not many pressed on a certain label. I still don't see the big deal with what label it is on if you can get the same song from the same time period on another label. your obviously not interested in the collecting side of the music, but if you like the music and a cheaper copy floats your boat that's fine, but think you will find the majority on here are serious collectors and a cheapo copy wouldn't float thier boats if you get what I mean lol
Soulman Posted June 21, 2014 Posted June 21, 2014 What is the big deal on what label the song is on when you can find it on another label for thousands less? With a statement like that anyone would think you were from Connecticut ! 2
Steve G Posted June 21, 2014 Posted June 21, 2014 (edited) What is the big deal on what label the song is on when you can find it on another label for thousands less? So there are many people who collect records on British labels as opposed to US ones. This record was thought not to exist on an issue for nigh on 50 years, so for the record collectors it's a massive find……not just soul collectors but general record collectors - they're not interested in having it on Revilot (probably have it anyway), for them this find is the holy grail of collecting British release records….. Edited June 21, 2014 by Steve G 2
Mal C Posted June 21, 2014 Posted June 21, 2014 (edited) ten a penny now, you can get em for 9.50 from Out of the Past records.. Edited June 21, 2014 by Mal C 3
Eddie Hubbard Posted June 21, 2014 Posted June 21, 2014 It heard from Mitch Parkin a mate of mine that all the db demos turned up in one place at a market or something ,but he also told me an interesting story that Eddie Hubbard had a db London issue from the BBC library given to him by an employee, only for the employee to ask for it back due to hierarchy finding out, how true this is I don't know maybe Eddie can confirm or unravel this story ? I wish it was true , but no , that story is untrue .I had a London demo for many years ,which I won for £65 in auction from Tony Ellis in 1980 , but no issue copy .
Tattoodave Posted June 21, 2014 Posted June 21, 2014 ten a penny now, you can get em for 9.50 from Out of the Past records.. This will mess with people's heads for sure, especially those that get taken in
kevinsoulman Posted June 21, 2014 Posted June 21, 2014 ten a penny now, you can get em for 9.50 from Out of the Past records.. wind em in mal
Guest PandaXP Posted June 21, 2014 Posted June 21, 2014 Well, well, well. This brings back memories of hanging around with Ian D back in 1978. I remember him being absolutely gutted, when a yellow London demo slipped through his fingers for £75 in a Nottingham record shop... Perhaps my all-time favourite Northern Soul record, and I wouldn't part with my own UK Stateside copy for love or money
Guest Posted June 23, 2014 Posted June 23, 2014 What is the big deal on what label the song is on when you can find it on another label for thousands less? Exactly!................That`s why I gave away my world cup final and plane tickets to Brazil when I can stay home and watch it on TV!
Chris L Posted June 24, 2014 Posted June 24, 2014 (edited) I see it has the BIEM authors rights logo on the label, had a quick look at some of my LAR records and don't see that on them. You do see it on European records though. BIEM = Bureau International des Sociétés Gérant les Droits d'Enregistrement et de Reproduction Mécanique Edited June 24, 2014 by Chris L
Sebastian Posted June 24, 2014 Posted June 24, 2014 I see it has the BIEM authors rights logo on the label, had a quick look at some of my LAR records and don't see that on them. You do see it on European records though. BIEM = Bureau International des Sociétés Gérant les Droits d'Enregistrement et de Reproduction Mécanique Both the promo and the issue has got "NCB" on it as well which is the Scandinavian copyright agency. This can be found on thousands of UK pressed 45's from the 60's. I assume so that those 45's could rightfully be sold in those territories as well. For example a lot of danish "releases" from the 60's has got a picture sleeve printed in Denmark, but a UK pressed 45 inside the sleeve.
Chris L Posted June 24, 2014 Posted June 24, 2014 Both the promo and the issue has got "NCB" on it as well which is the Scandinavian copyright agency. This can be found on thousands of UK pressed 45's from the 60's. I assume so that those 45's could rightfully be sold in those territories as well. For example a lot of danish "releases" from the 60's has got a picture sleeve printed in Denmark, but a UK pressed 45 inside the sleeve. Without wandering too far from the subject BIEM is an agreement between the US & Europe and yes you do tend to find it on "continental" releases. Just checked a couple of UK labels I had lying around, none seem to have it, makes you wonder if it wasn't a UK pressing meant for another European country ?
Chris L Posted June 24, 2014 Posted June 24, 2014 ten a penny now, you can get em for 9.50 from Out of the Past records.. Just ordered a couple of hundred copies................I'm rich...............I'm rich.................I'm rich I tell you............... 1
Sebastian Posted June 24, 2014 Posted June 24, 2014 (edited) Just checked a couple of UK labels I had lying around, none seem to have it, makes you wonder if it wasn't a UK pressing meant for another European country ? No, I think you're making it more difficult/complicated than what it is. Loads and loads of 45's that definitely were made for primarily UK consumption had NCB and/or BIEM on the labels. It appears on LPs as well. The NCB/BIEM was on the label so that the record could be sold in those countries as well if need be. Some examples below. All UK pressings of "La Bamba" has for example got NCB/BIEM on the label. Edited June 24, 2014 by Sebastian 2
Chris L Posted June 24, 2014 Posted June 24, 2014 No, I think you're making it more difficult/complicated than what it is.The NCB/BIEM was on the label so that the record could be sold in those countries as well if need be. Some examples below. All UK pressings of "La Bamba" has for example got NCB/BIEM on the label. Except this one.......................
Sebastian Posted June 24, 2014 Posted June 24, 2014 (edited) Except this one....................... ritchie-valens-la-bamba-london-3.jpg I was talking about records produced in the 1960's. The scan you posted is the 1979 reissue. Edited June 24, 2014 by Sebastian 1
Denbo Posted June 24, 2014 Posted June 24, 2014 I was talking about records produced in the 1960's. The scan you posted is the 1979 reissue. Bugger me, that's a 1979 reissue? Looks like an authentic early London release, until you look closer at the credits etc. Still looks amazing though.
Pete S Posted June 24, 2014 Posted June 24, 2014 Except this one....................... ritchie-valens-la-bamba-london-3.jpg Original London 45's don't have any indication as to which is side one or side two, and don't have the word Mono on the label.
Chris L Posted June 24, 2014 Posted June 24, 2014 I was talking about records produced in the 1960's. The scan you posted is the 1979 reissue. Sorry Sebastian, when you said "All" I guessed you actually meant "All"
Pete S Posted June 24, 2014 Posted June 24, 2014 Sorry Sebastian, when you said "All" I guessed you actually meant "All" I knew what he meant.. 1
Gene-r Posted June 24, 2014 Posted June 24, 2014 (edited) I was talking about records produced in the 1960's. The scan you posted is the 1979 reissue. London put out at least two of these tri-centre reissues around 1978/79. The other one was a Charlie Gracie 45 which originally came out on UK Parlophone - not London! Edited June 24, 2014 by Gene-R
Cover-up Posted June 27, 2014 Posted June 27, 2014 Saint Etienne's Bob Stanley wrote a feature in The Guardian today... https://www.theguardian.com/music/musicblog/2014/jun/27/souls-holy-grail-why-the-rarest-record-in-the-world-is-causing-so-much-fuss 1
Mak Posted June 28, 2014 Posted June 28, 2014 Wow,Holy Grail or what !!!! ''I hava got a one , now go away you silly English Canigets. Bloody fantastic news , well done that man .
Pete S Posted June 28, 2014 Posted June 28, 2014 Saint Etienne's Bob Stanley wrote a feature in The Guardian today... https://www.theguardian.com/music/musicblog/2014/jun/27/souls-holy-grail-why-the-rarest-record-in-the-world-is-causing-so-much-fuss
dthedrug Posted June 29, 2014 Posted June 29, 2014 Hi All and do I like it when some people cock up, only for some sage to put them right! What he should do, is look for the error of his ways, here is my copy of this great tune, (John Manship has not listed it in his UK Price Guide??) many LONDON AMERICAN UK 45s have the European agreement on them I have picked LITTLE HANK DEMO as it has a similar history to OTDTYH, however the issue was circulated for 5 days, and very rare to get today. scans from my collection. DAVE K I was talking about records produced in the 1960's. The scan you posted is the 1979 reissue.
Guest gordon russell Posted June 29, 2014 Posted June 29, 2014 Sorry about being incredulous but when you've been collecting British as long as some of us have, and a record known to previously not exist turns up, people are going to be a little sceptical. This is a record that's been talked about for nearly 50 years and not one single copy has ever been found. If you have found it - massive congratulations, you have the rarest UK record ever made I should think. yes it has .....this fellas found one
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