Columbia, Epic, Okeh, Etc

[45cellar]

Hi Everyone

I don't know if the answer is well known but I was wondering

Has anyone any Idea why some of the Columbia ZSP appear on Vinyl

---------------------- ZSP135536-1B ---------------------------------------- J ZSP135536-1C ------------------------------------------ ZSP135536-1A --------------------

The RED Stock copy on the Left is on Vinyl - The DEMO and other RED Stock copy are on Styrene.

I have Included the STAMPED Matrix for each - I know that the J ZSP = DEMO, but does the A, B, or C mean anything and why a few on Vinyl?

I have sometimes seen listed White & Black Columbia DEMO's (i.e.Dana Valery) Described as "Rarer". https://www.raresoulman.co.uk/rarest-of-the-rare/15

It's hard enough to get the Red & White DEMO on STYRENE - (Dana Valery).

Is this where the White & Black Columbia DEMO's come from & are they on Vinyl.

This applies to Epic etc although some I know are boots, the ones I mean have a STAMPED Matrix ZSP#

Regards

Roger

Edited July 20, 2006 by 45cellar

[Simon T]

Although Columbia had their own pressing plants, maybe they outsourced some of the pressing to other plants, and they pressed vinyl, not styrene?

Also, when you consider the size of the country, it might have been much more economically viable to transport a set of pressing plates & / or lacquers, than the pressed up records? Some (e.g. west coast) used styrene, others vinyl.

I the A, B, C refer to the press run i.e. C= 3rd time it was pressed, that is the umber of occasions it’s appeared on vinyl, hence you can get one side of a record with A on it, and the other D; quite odd whatever it stands for.

[Dunc]

From my experience all the labels that you have mentioned pressed originals in Styrene in the sixties. They re-issued on vinyl later. ie. Freddie Scott - Mr Heartache. Original on Styrene later released on vinyl. The one on the left of your examples looks like a second isssue to me, unless it was pressed in Canada, because they did not use styrene for Columbia records in Canada. At least I think so????

No doubt somebody will put me right. But on the labels you have mentioned I would not touch it unless it was Styrene. I am gonna check my boxes now.

Could be the use of different pressing plants though.

Dunc

[Dunc]

Have found one in vinyl. Kenny Gamble "OUR LOVE/ You know what you got... and it's a proper one. I am now as confused as you. All that I can say is that the Freddie Scott re-issue is not ZSP stamped and made out of very thin flexible plastic. This is stamped and very thick (Like Me).

I Will get my coat!!!

dunc

[Simon T]

From my experience all the labels that you have mentioned pressed originals in Styrene in the sixties. They re-issued on vinyl later. ie. Freddie Scott - Mr Heartache. Original on Styrene later released on vinyl. The one on the left of your examples looks like a second isssue to me, unless it was pressed in Canada, because they did not use styrene for Columbia records in Canada. At least I think so????

Somewhere I have Canadian copy of Brenda & Tabs - A Love You Can Depent On - Columbia, and it's on vinyl. However the label is orange and I think there's some kind of maple leaf motif on it too.

(My Candian copy of Major Lance investigate on Epic is vinyl too)

Dunc

[Dunc]

Being more British then, the Canadians must have used our techniques and used Vinyl. All the Canadian issues are orange like our CBS subsiduary and the sound quality is better. I have a Big Maybelle- Can't Wait any Longer on a UK CBS demo and the sound quality on my Canadian Columbia is much clearer.

The answer could be East/West coast production.

Dunc

[45cellar]

Being more British then, the Canadians must have used our techniques and used Vinyl. All the Canadian issues are orange like our CBS subsiduary and the sound quality is better. I have a Big Maybelle- Can't Wait any Longer on a UK CBS demo and the sound quality on my Canadian Columbia is much clearer.

The answer could be East/West coast production.

Dunc

Hi

You are probably right, I think The East/West coast production could be the answer, as although not from the same group of labels I have ZTSC STAMPED Matrix

Left=Vinyl -------------------- DEMO=STYRENE -------------------- Right=Styrene

All have STAMPED Matrix

I have also some Amy Mala Bell Product on Styrene & Vinyl Matrix STAMPED - (Dyno-Voice)

Once again The Vinyl appears harder to get and another instance of a label which is otherwise mostly Styrene throughout it's catalogue.

Edited July 21, 2006 by 45cellar

[Val (Chunky)]

I believe some of the Okeh demos where Vinyl also I have Billy Butler "Found True Love" on a vinyl demo

[Guest Netspeaky]

The reason could simply be that when vinyl went out due to the oil situation and STYRENE became the norm, pressing plants had stocks of vinyl in warehouse, so more by luck than design when certain runs of records were pressed up, then occassionally it was the old stock of vinyl that was used. We all know how warehouse rotation doesn't work like it should so it quite easy to see how this could have come about.

[45cellar]

The reason could simply be that when vinyl went out due to the oil situation and STYRENE became the norm, pressing plants had stocks of vinyl in warehouse, so more by luck than design when certain runs of records were pressed up, then occassionally it was the old stock of vinyl that was used. We all know how warehouse rotation doesn't work like it should so it quite easy to see how this could have come about.

Hi

I suppose that years later, the records that we now love to collect were once the result of someones daily routine in a pressing plant little realising, or caring about such things.

It's nice when years later, records such as "Shades of Blue" - Relatively cheap to pick up - can be collected in it's various original format Vinyl/Styrene.

The Styrene was expected and sits nicely in my collection amongst the others, however, as has been stated on previous threads - The Vinyl can often have a better sound quality.

Brilliant when there is a Matrix Stamp, as it becomes a confident purchase, but it goes to show how varied some of the Titles are. Difficult if there are bootlegs about and you are about to spend a bit - Makes collecting a challenge at times.

Even after all these years, I have bought a record expecting Styrene and when it arrives -"Oh it's on Vinyl" ......... You never ever stop learning in this game

[45cellar]

From my experience all the labels that you have mentioned pressed originals in Styrene in the sixties. They re-issued on vinyl later. ie. Freddie Scott - Mr Heartache. Original on Styrene later released on vinyl. The one on the left of your examples looks like a second isssue to me, unless it was pressed in Canada, because they did not use styrene for Columbia records in Canada. At least I think so????

Somewhere I have Canadian copy of Brenda & Tabs - A Love You Can Depent On - Columbia, and it's on vinyl. However the label is orange and I think there's some kind of maple leaf motif on it too.

(My Candian copy of Major Lance investigate on Epic is vinyl too)

Dunc

Hi

There are some interesting finds on canadian labels. Sparton, Early Tamla (Vinyl - Better sound quality) and as you mention some of the Okeh stuff but on Epic.

The Early Canadian Yellow Tamla releases that I have seen come from the various Motown Labels and carry the USA number prefix

Edited July 21, 2006 by 45cellar

[Guest]

From my experience all the labels that you have mentioned pressed originals in Styrene in the sixties. They re-issued on vinyl later. ie. Freddie Scott - Mr Heartache. Original on Styrene later released on vinyl. The one on the left of your examples looks like a second isssue to me, unless it was pressed in Canada, because they did not use styrene for Columbia records in Canada. At least I think so????

No doubt somebody will put me right. But on the labels you have mentioned I would not touch it unless it was Styrene. I am gonna check my boxes now.

Could be the use of different pressing plants though.

Dunc

Freddie Scott - Mr Heartache. Original on Styrene later released on vinyl.

Columbia pressed 45s in BOTH vinyl and styrene on a number of titles, Freddie Scott styrene and vinyl are both originals.

Columbia pressed records in different parts of the USA, as was quite rightly pointed out in a previous post. eg a New York recording would not only be pressed in New York: masters were shipped eg: West Coast, Mid West, North West and south to be presssed. So you will always come across a few oddities. But I can't ever remember seeing a Dana Valery in vinyl, but wouldn't be too surprised if I did.

Last letter on the ZSP matrix I feel does denote the different periods of the same title being pressed. Because all the Columbia 70s Okeh reissues carry D,E,F as the last letter. The Original Okeh releases carry A, B,or C

Someone somewhere will have done research on this I'm sure, but I haven't as yet.

Strangely Monach in the 60s/70s were mostly styrene presses abs then all of a sudden you'll come across a VINYL press with an MR stamp. It may even be done to the price of the material and availabilty at the time.

Any more info, and more accurate than mine would be most welcome.. as I said I've done no research into the suubject.

[45cellar]

Freddie Scott - Mr Heartache. Original on Styrene later released on vinyl.

Columbia pressed 45s in BOTH vinyl and styrene on a number of titles, Freddie Scott styrene and vinyl are both originals.

Columbia pressed records in different parts of the USA, as was quite rightly pointed out in a previous post. eg a New York recording would not only be pressed in New York: masters were shipped eg: West Coast, Mid West, North West and south to be presssed. So you will always come across a few oddities. But I can't ever remember seeing a Dana Valery in vinyl, but wouldn't be too surprised if I did.

Last letter on the ZSP matrix I feel does denote the different periods of the same title being pressed. Because all the Columbia 70s Okeh reissues carry D,E,F as the last letter. The Original Okeh releases carry A, B,or C

Someone somewhere will have done research on this I'm sure, but I haven't as yet.

Strangely Monach in the 60s/70s were mostly styrene presses abs then all of a sudden you'll come across a VINYL press with an MR stamp. It may even be done to the price of the material and availabilty at the time.

Any more info, and more accurate than mine would be most welcome.. as I said I've done no research into the suubject.

Thanks John

I have Dana Valery on the Red/White Columbia DEMO - Styrene

As I havn't seen a White and Black DEMO other than a Label Scan I just wondered if it was Vinyl. Obviously the one on Rarest of the rare is Styrene - Thanks again for info

[Guest Paul]

Strangely Monach in the 60s/70s were mostly styrene presses abs then all of a sudden you'll come across a VINYL press with an MR stamp. It may even be done to the price of the material and availabilty at the time.

Hello,

Some tracks were mastered at Monarch but were not pressed there; the lacquers or stampers were shipped to other plants, either because of geographical location or lower pressing costs. That explains many vinyl pressings which contain 'MR' stamps and 'delta' numbers.

An example is Reuben Bell on Alarm 107 which was mastered and pressed on styrene at Monarch for west coast distributors. Copies were also pressed on vinyl at the same time in Nashville (using duplicate metalwork and therefore having the same MR stamp and delta numbers).

Likewise, records mastered at other plants could be pressed at Monarch and - in theory - some may not have had MR stamps or delta numbers.

Paul Mooney

[45cellar]

Hello,

Some tracks were mastered at Monarch but were not pressed there; the lacquers or stampers were shipped to other plants, either because of geographical location or lower pressing costs. That explains many vinyl pressings which contain 'MR' stamps and 'delta' numbers.

An example is Reuben Bell on Alarm 107 which was mastered and pressed on styrene at Monarch for west coast distributors. Copies were also pressed on vinyl at the same time in Nashville (using duplicate metalwork and therefore having the same MR stamp and delta numbers).

Likewise, records mastered at other plants could be pressed at Monarch and - in theory - some may not have had MR stamps or delta numbers.

Paul Mooney

Priceless information, thanks to everyone who has replied, learnt a lot today many pieces of the jigsaw suddenly fit into place.

[Dunc]

Freddie Scott - Mr Heartache. Original on Styrene later released on vinyl.

Columbia pressed 45s in BOTH vinyl and styrene on a number of titles, Freddie Scott styrene and vinyl are both originals.

Hi John

nice to see you on here and appreciate your comments. Would the vinyl copy of Freddie Scott still be matrix stamped, as the two copies that I have seen at £10 each were not stamped and very thin 70's style plastic. ie, you could bend them and the run out grooves were like boots (lots of em).

Dunc

[bri pinch]

saw a black and white demo of dana valery in mick smiths sales box @250 quid acouple of years ago...twas on styrene. he also had a b/w spellbinders..help me @40. nice to see em.

bri.

[45cellar]

saw a black and white demo of dana valery in mick smiths sales box @250 quid acouple of years ago...twas on styrene. he also had a b/w spellbinders..help me @40. nice to see em.

bri.

Hi

Thanks for that, as I say, other than a scan, I haven't seen one.