Mr Angry Wants A Moan

[Quinvy]

I have recently started buying and selling vinyl again for a couple of reasons.

 

1. There's loads of stuff that I didn't record before I moved it on, and now I wish I had. So I am buying them again recording them and then selling them on. 

 

2. There's a few things that used to get played at my allnighter which were covered up so I had no idea what they were, so as I get to find out what they were I'm getting them and doing the same.

 

3. There's some really great 45's that my mate Cliff Camfield has been playing that I've discovered the identity of, so again I've been buying them to record and sell.

 

4. There were quite a few rarities that I never managed to own when I was collecting, so if one of these turns up, I'll be having a go at buying them as well.

 

5. I need to try and earn some money.

 

OK so here's my moan. I have noticed that the quality of grading by sellers in the States has dropped dramatically since I was buying before. At one time a record from the States that was graded as VG+ would be nigh on Mint condition. That is far from the case now in my experience.

 

Moan number two. I recently won a record from a dealer with 100% feedback and with over 54000 transactions to his name, so I had no worries about my purchase. So it arrives this morning, and as soon as I got hold of the mailer my heart sank. It was so light and squishy, it was obvious there was very little packing inside. So I carefully opened the mailer to find inside the 45, in a paper sleeve, and a clear plastic sleeve, and two tiny pieces of bubble wrap just placed either side of the record. The only other packing was thin air. Needles to say the record was cracked.

 

So, is this the way this seller has been doing it for all the years he has been selling? Have all his other packages managed to survive, and mine has been the only casualty?

 

Has a new member of staff been recruited and I was just unfortunate?

 

Either way I'm very pissed off.

 

Right, carry on.

Edited May 29, 2014 by Quinvy

[Soulof]

We got a cheap record from US recently same story. Loads of positive feedback 24000 or something and just an empty inner sleeve as protection... 

It had a tiny crack at the start but could not be bothered to complain this time.  Puzzles me as well how a record dealer can ship away a record across the globe with hardly any protection...  Always been lucky with US dealers otherwise..   

[grant]

same here, loads of +ve feedback, when I received my 45 it had a massive chip out of it, managed to get nowhere

[Pete S]

+ve

 

 

Please Grant, don't do it 

It's as bad as "OG" "BBQ" or "The Bay" or "Chune" and in fact it actually read "Plus Ve" what the f*ck does that mean?

OG, what genius came up with that one..

[MrsWoodsrules]

Please Grant, don't do it

It's as bad as "OG" "BBQ" or "The Bay" or "Chune" and in fact it actually read "Plus Ve" what the f*ck does that mean?

OG, what genius came up with that one..

Don't be so -ve Pete.

[Pete S]

Don't be so -ve Pete.

 

I'll try and stop being minusve mate, I promise.

[Frankie Crocker]

Not good enough. You have every right to complain. Too many minor dealers are skimping on packaging yet are content to charge heftily for it. Leave sarcastic feedback and watch him change his tune. Most dealers I buy from are excellent but I always request cardboard stiffeners be used AND taped together AND sent in a 7 inch mailer. Top dealers offer top quality packaging eg Craig Moerer, John Anderson, Lew Stanley, John Tefteller et al and need no reminding of how records should be packed. If the record you are buying is known to be styrene, it is worth mentioning it is extremely fragile in the hope they use extra packaging. The trick to watch for is the sly dealer who sends a cracked record but deliberately packs it badly so it appears that postal damage may have conceivably occurred.

Edited June 5, 2014 by FRANKIE CROCKER

[Kjw]

Not good enough. You have every right to complain. Too many minor dealers are skimping on packaging yet are content too charge heftily for it. Leave sarcastic feedback and watch him change his tune. Most dealers I buy from are excellent but I always request cardboard stiffeners be used AND taped together AND sent in a 7 inch mailer. Top dealers offer top quality packaging eg Craig Moerer, John Anderson, Lew Stanley, John Tefteller et al and need no reminding of how records should be packed. If the record you are buying is known to be styrene, it is worth mentioning it is extremely fragile in the hope they use extra packaging. The trick to watch for is the sly dealer who sends a cracked record but deliberately packs it badly so it appears that it postal damage may have conceivably occurred.

 

Lew Stanley ???

 

Two bits of cardboard unevely cut with close to a full reel of tape round them

 

More chance of a damaged record from Lew when you actually try and get it open

[sir cumference]

Isn`t it sad-when the dealers cannot even show the vinyl any respect?

 

And they make money from these deals!

[Tiberius]

 

OK so here's my moan. I have noticed that the quality of grading by sellers in the States has dropped dramatically since I was buying before. At one time a record from the States that was graded as VG+ would be nigh on Mint condition. That is far from the case now in my experience.

 

Hopefully "Mr Angry" is a little calmer today and perhaps I can throw in my tupenneth without feeding the flames.  Anyhow, I don't think this is a new problem, the VG+ and to a lesser extent VG++ grades are the most wide open to (mis)interpretation in my experience.  Many sellers in the US don't use VG++ so the gap between EX down to VG or whatever is quite wide. At the lower end many boderline VG records get edged into VG+.  So you can be lucky and get a nice condition disc or one that's not so good.  I bought 12 records from a seller some time ago that were pretty much all listed VG+ and when they arrived these ranged visually from M- down to VG to one which was cracked.  After experiencing the highs and lows of purchasing records graded VG+ I rarely buy much on ebay below EX con nowadays unless I'm pretty confident in the seller or there's a sample of the audio.  Even seemingly good photos don't tell the wholle story.  In your case, as you intend to sell these records on, I would do likewise and be fussy when buying VG+.  The records are still out there, another copy willl eventually show up, but you may have to wait a little bit longer until the one in great shape pops up for sale.

[Quinvy]

But EX isn't a recognised grade in the Goldmine system. If you read the VG+ description here  anything that has spent a lot of time without a sleeve shouldn't get such a high grade, and both the records I bought had been stored without a sleeve.

[NUFCSOUL]

Agree totally with the opening post.

Had a similar experience with a record in a bubble padded jiffy bag and he said he always sent them that way !!!

I do think USA sellers need to be more specific and yes VG+ should be nice and clean but a lot of the time it's not.

Not too fussed if it's cheaper end I'm trying to fill a box up with, due to the postage on buying only one record

I have been surprised that a generic VG on every record has turned up superb unmarked old store stock.

One thing for sure with the price of the USPS we pay they shouldn't be scrimping on bloody bags and wonky cardboard.

Before long the cost of post from the US will mean it's not worthwhile buying 'stocking fillers' for the collection anyway and those that insist on declaring full

value on the customs on higher end stuff, I will not buy from.

[Tiberius]

But EX isn't a recognised grade in the Goldmine system. If you read the VG+ description here  anything that has spent a lot of time without a sleeve shouldn't get such a high grade, and both the records I bought had been stored without a sleeve.

 

Your link is to the site recommended grading system which is not the same as Goldmines, which as I remember doesn't recognise the VG++ grade.  This serves to illustrate my point in so far as that because there's no "standard" system of grading people tend to use their own spin on what they deem to be the norm eg. Goldmine, Osborne etc.  This is not a new problem and not confined just to US ebay sellers.  I've had enough problems over the years with records graded M- and this only gets worse and multiplies as you go down the grades in my opinion. the old adage "let the buyer beware" is more applicable the lower you go......unless you really aren't fussed.

Mine was just a general comment and clearly in your example a record that has not been stored in the sleeve will invariably be less than VG+ whichever grading system is used and you should get a refund.  I wish you better luck in future, whichever grade you opt to purchase, but for my own peace of mind I'll continue to leave much of the VG+ stuff alone.

https://recordcollectornews.com/2013/08/record-grading-gets-an-f/

[Supercorsa]

Is it just me, but if a list has records predominantly listed at VG, I don't even bother looking at any further sales listings from that seller.

[boba]

for the record, ebay grading has significantly improved for a lot of terrible sellers since the advent of the DSRs (detailed seller ratings, the star system). they have been the only thing keeping sellers' status on ebay. ebay is changing it again so that they rate sellers based on returns and refunds, which i think will loosen the grading once again.

 

i don't think anything is new. there always have been conservative and non-conservative graders. you have to look at the listings for clues (e.g. compare the label condition to the vinyl condition and see whether it looks like a "VG+" record). my only observation about US vs. UK graders is that UK graders tend to be either extremely conservative or extremely liberal with their grades while there is a wider range of standards with US sellers.

 

i agree about many sellers using poor packaging but i still can't believe that the standard of mailing in the UK is a thin envelope mailer with a single totally flexible thin pad inside. I've gotten plenty of cracked records from the UK with that packaging. in the last few years i have experienced more US sellers skimping on packaging to save a few cents -- for example, using real 45 mailers but no filler pads, which makes a record extremely crackable in shipping.

[Mace]

Bit off topic, but can anyone recommend a UK stockist for decent 7" stiffeners....most the ones available are somewhat flimsy so I tend to use 4 or 5 at a time...had some really good quality ones from US made of very sturdy cardboard but cant seem to find them in UK.....plus my missus won't let me buy any more gas BBQs so I can cut up the cardboard box they come in!

[Brav]

Bit off topic, but can anyone recommend a UK stockist for decent 7" stiffeners....most the ones available are somewhat flimsy so I tend to use 4 or 5 at a time...had some really good quality ones from US made of very sturdy cardboard but cant seem to find them in UK.....plus my missus won't let me buy any more gas BBQs so I can cut up the cardboard box they come in!

Try these as they look to be good mate.

 

https://www.defendapack.com/12_7_inch_cardboard_vinyl_record_album_lp_single_cardboard_mailers_coventry_uk_music_max_musicmax_corrugated_postal_wraps/12%22_CORRUGATED_CARDBOARD_LP_VINYL_RECORD_ALBUM_MAILERS_WRAPS_LOCKING_TAB_POSTAL_BOXES_DEFENDA_MUSIC_MAX_MUSICMAX/7_INCH_SINGLES_LP_VINYL_RECORD_MAILERS_CARDBOARD_RECORD_WRAPS_DEFENDA_MUSICMAX_MUSIC_MAX/7_inch_MusicMax_wrapsx100

[Cover-up]

Bit off topic, but can anyone recommend a UK stockist for decent 7" stiffeners....most the ones available are somewhat flimsy so I tend to use 4 or 5 at a time...had some really good quality ones from US made of very sturdy cardboard but cant seem to find them in UK.....plus my missus won't let me buy any more gas BBQs so I can cut up the cardboard box they come in!

 

This might sound really stupid and patronising, or very wise. But, when packaging records between cardboard, the bits of cardboard have to have the corrugations running perpendicular to each other. If you have two bits of cardboard and bend them, they tend to fold easily along the lines. If you rotate one of them by 90 degrees, THEN try to bend, you'll find that's where the strength comes from.

 

Next week I'll be discussing whether using FRAGILE tape makes a blind bit of difference...

Edited June 5, 2014 by cover-up

[Mellorful]

A lot of practical knowledge of buyers experiences is held by soul source members.

If the auction or selling site feedback system can't be trusted would it help if soul source had a forum where overseas sellers are scored according to their grading accuracy (covering ebay, discogs and Gemm). The members weighting on their purchases could help other members decide on whether to trust a sellers integrity before making a bid or purchasing an item. A 'heads up' is always useful.

[Alison H]

Lew Stanley ???

 

Two bits of cardboard unevely cut with close to a full reel of tape round them

 

More chance of a damaged record from Lew when you actually try and get it open

:lol: I ADORE Lew, & his wife Marsha sounds about right for Lew

[Mace]

This might sound really stupid and patronising, or very wise. But, when packaging records between cardboard, the bits of cardboard have to have the corrugations running perpendicular to each other. If you have two bits of cardboard and bend them, they tend to fold easily along the lines. If you rotate one of them by 90 degrees, THEN try to bend, you'll find that's where the strength comes from.

 

Next week I'll be discussing whether using FRAGILE tape makes a blind bit of difference...

 

Yeah. I turn each piece 90 degrees as described BUT most UK card stiffeners are flimsy at best so I end up using 4 or 5........2 aint strong enough in my opinion...some of those US ones are sturdy as fcuk...and that's why I asked if anyone stocks them in UK.....have requested a sample from supplier on Bravs link (I gotta buy 500+ so want them to be right)...but a pound to a penny says they are the same flimsy tat as the rest...

[Labeat]

Yeah. I turn each piece 90 degrees as described BUT most UK card stiffeners are flimsy at best so I end up using 4 or 5........2 aint strong enough in my opinion...some of those US ones are sturdy as fcuk...and that's why I asked if anyone stocks them in UK.....have requested a sample from supplier on Bravs link (I gotta buy 500+ so want them to be right)...but a pound to a penny says they are the same flimsy tat as the rest...

 

But Mace, if you turned each one 90 degrees they'd be runnin the same way

[Mace]

I shall resist from clogging this thread up any more with replies of an angle rotated of cardboard product variety.....

[Quinvy]

Just got another one today. No packing what so ever in the mailer. I could not believe that the record was still in one piece, and it's styrene too. Why do they do it?

[Missgoldie]

Just got another one today. No packing what so ever in the mailer. I could not believe that the record was still in one piece, and it's styrene too. Why do they do it?

 

I've actually started to issue packing instructions when it's a random ebay or discogs sellers.

[Guest Rob Alias]

I think that part of the problem is the equipment that the record is played upon. If your 7" single is never going to be played (or graded) on anything better than a Technics 1210 then it is highly likely that an aural grading is going to be less than strictly accurate, especially if it is being used with your basic Ortofon / Stanton styli.

 

Rob Alias 

[Pete S]

I think that part of the problem is the equipment that the record is played upon. If your 7" single is never going to be played (or graded) on anything better than a Technics 1210 then it is highly likely that an aural grading is going to be less than strictly accurate, especially if it is being used with your basic Ortofon / Stanton styli.

 

Rob Alias

 

Most of these records were made to be played on 60's record players and stereos.  Not posh high end hi fi systems.  That's why I'm perfectly happy to play mine on a Dansette as well as a Stanton.

[Andrea Ko]

I think that part of the problem is the equipment that the record is played upon. If your 7" single is never going to be played (or graded) on anything better than a Technics 1210 then it is highly likely that an aural grading is going to be less than strictly accurate, especially if it is being used with your basic Ortofon / Stanton styli.

 

Rob Alias

I've always regarded Thechnics 1210 as a great record player

[Guest Rob Alias]

I've always regarded Thechnics 1210 as a great record player

 

Hello Andrea.

 

And rightly so, it has a venerable history as a DJ workhorse (even though this was not the original use intended for the deck). But, despite the great facilities on offer (pitch control etc), in an unmodified form it does not offer the last word in extracting the most information from the groove of the record, and in this regard there are cheaper decks that offer a greater insight in to 'the groove'.

 

Rob Alias

[Guest Rob Alias]

Most of these records were made to be played on 60's record players and stereos.  Not posh high end hi fi systems.  That's why I'm perfectly happy to play mine on a Dansette as well as a Stanton.

 

If that is your position then in respect of record grading (which is surely not conditional on the equipment produced around the time of a record's production) you will continue to be disappointed by the gradings made on a Dansette. Technology moves on and the turntables produced today are capable of extracting greater information from 'the groove' - thereby allowing you (as the listener) to make a subjective judgement regarding sound and condition etc.

 

This is, surely, a good thing?

 

Rob Alias

 

[Frankie Crocker]

for the record, ebay grading has significantly improved for a lot of terrible sellers since the advent of the DSRs (detailed seller ratings, the star system). they have been the only thing keeping sellers' status on ebay. ebay is changing it again so that they rate sellers based on returns and refunds, which i think will loosen the grading once again.

 

i don't think anything is new. there always have been conservative and non-conservative graders. you have to look at the listings for clues (e.g. compare the label condition to the vinyl condition and see whether it looks like a "VG+" record). my only observation about US vs. UK graders is that UK graders tend to be either extremely conservative or extremely liberal with their grades while there is a wider range of standards with US sellers.

 

i agree about many sellers using poor packaging but i still can't believe that the standard of mailing in the UK is a thin envelope mailer with a single totally flexible thin pad inside. I've gotten plenty of cracked records from the UK with that packaging. in the last few years i have experienced more US sellers skimping on packaging to save a few cents -- for example, using real 45 mailers but no filler pads, which makes a record extremely crackable in shipping.

BobA - spot on as always...

[Frankie Crocker]

I've actually started to issue packing instructions when it's a random ebay or discogs sellers.

Always done this. Wish there was a way of pasting the same message to sellers time and time again. Not yet factored in the alternating orientation of cardboard stiffeners but a great idea - actually seen a couple of US dealers do this recently. For that ultra rare record, consider sending a 7 inch tin - these came with limited edition 45's back in the 80's and can be picked up for a few quid: leave the punk-rock/goth/pop record in the store and say you only wanted the tin...usually mystifies the shop assistant, but so what, all part of the crazy world of Northern Soul.