Sales Lists And The Mis-Leading Descriptions And Fonk

[Paul-s]

Is it just me or do you also get frustrated when trawling through online lists or ebay sales to listen to clips that are often described as Crossover soul or Funk/soul or gospel/funk when in reality they should file under dire bin ends!

 

Also, I have noticed that what me and Karl Heard used to call 'dirty funk edged soul' is now being confused with what I would call FONK. By this i mean the sort of generic funk or FONK thats better played at student nights where they are drunk and want to wobble about a bit.

 

Is the desperate desire to unearth new tunes leading to generic FONK infiltrating many nights? 

[Paul-s]

Heres an example: Listed as Funk/Soul.....nuh! This is FONK!

 

 

[Quinvy]

Come on Paul, look at the stuff that's labelled as "Northern" it covers everything from white pop to country and western.

[Geoff]

It's not a bad record of its type but wouldn't want to hear it when I went out to a soul night. Admittedly I'm not a big fan of instrumentals. You are right that DJs are desperate to find "new" records to play, and there are loads of funk ones. However if they are to be played at a soul night (rare, Northern or whatever you like to call it) they should be danceable in our style. 

[Paulb]

In some ways the introduction of funk onto the soul scene has been a bad thing. It opened the floodgates for the new breed "funky soul dj" playing poor quality funk records that should never see the light of day. The volume of funk records played has gone through the roof, yet the quality has dropped through the floor, in my humble opnion of course.

[KevH]

Ebay's full of it.Misrepresented records,misleading genre headers.But hey ho...

Only Karl and yourself called it dirty funk edged soul,.??

[Stubbsy]

In some ways the introduction of funk onto the soul scene has been a bad thing. It opened the floodgates for the new breed "funky soul dj" playing poor quality funk records that should never see the light of day. The volume of funk records played has gone through the roof, yet the quality has dropped through the floor, in my humble opnion of course.

 

That might be in your humble opinion Paul but I couldn't agree more

[Guest in town Mikey]

I think Pete Smith made a quid or two in the early days of ebay with 'mislabled' soul records. He may have waxed lyrically about it once or twice

[Paul-s]

Come on Paul, look at the stuff that's labelled as "Northern" it covers everything from white pop to country and western.

 

True Phil!

[Paul-s]

In some ways the introduction of funk onto the soul scene has been a bad thing. It opened the floodgates for the new breed "funky soul dj" playing poor quality funk records that should never see the light of day. The volume of funk records played has gone through the roof, yet the quality has dropped through the floor, in my humble opnion of course.

 

My point exactly...thats why we need to have a definitive term. So I suggest FONK to describe these tunes   "playing poor quality funk records that should never see the light of day."

[Paul-s]

Ebay's full of it.Misrepresented records,misleading genre headers.But hey ho...

Only Karl and yourself called it dirty funk edged soul,.??

 

Yes, maybe we did..ha! As opposed to namby pamby bad quality student Fonk. It had to have a ghetto soul quality, great vocal and lyrics and be danceable I guess.

[pow wow mik]

Think you're reading too much into it. A lot of people will just put funk / soul / r&b on any listing that might be any of those, to catch searches and maybe because they dont know all the finer rules of British genre defining.

Imagine some poor US seller trying to work out if louis chachere is funk or r&b or hard edged funky soul!? They just put soul / funk as in main category - soul, sub category - funk, if they even know that much.

it is a bit weird when sellers are more specific, like using terms like 'northern' or 'popcorn' when something isn't, but even this can be useful, cos unless they're way wrong, it gives the buyer an indication of what the style of an unknown 45 is.

Apart from that, i dont think many people are confusing party student funk with funky soul....maybe some people like both and maybe there's tracks that fall right between the two genres, there usually are.

Edited May 29, 2014 by pow wow mik

[pow wow mik]

My point exactly...thats why we need to have a definitive term. So I suggest FONK to describe these tunes   "playing poor quality funk records that should never see the light of day."

Eh? Surely these records are 'funk' as it is, and the funky soul records you like, er, 'funky soul' or just 'soul'!

Reminds me of people trying to create some sort of separation between some notion of 'real r&b' and the wave of 'new breed r&b' that became popular in the 00s....what a load of b*llocks, there's just r&b....if you dont like some of it then that's all it is, you just dont like some of it, doesnt make it another genre, unless you can manage to create a genre based around a taste structure rather than a musical style - like Northern Soul, which then wont mean much in musical terms.

to illustrate my previous point, Karl used to play Bo Jr on Tailgate, which to your average non-enthusiast wouldn't sound that much different, genre wise, to louis chachere.

you need years to learn these nuances

Edited February 7, 2015 by pikeys dog
swearing - workplace filters

[Chalky]

Bloody hell not another genre.....

[Ncfc]

In some ways the introduction of funk onto the soul scene has been a bad thing. It opened the floodgates for the new breed "funky soul dj" playing poor quality funk records that should never see the light of day. The volume of funk records played has gone through the roof, yet the quality has dropped through the floor, in my humble opnion of course.

shame that a lot of these funk records are backed with sweet group ballads,makes them twice as hard to get

[Ncfc]

In some ways the introduction of funk onto the soul scene has been a bad thing. It opened the floodgates for the new breed "funky soul dj" playing poor quality funk records that should never see the light of day. The volume of funk records played has gone through the roof, yet the quality has dropped through the floor, in my humble opnion of course.

shame that a lot of these funk records are backed with sweet group ballads,makes them twice as hard to get

[pow wow mik]

I used to play that louis chachere at a night in the 90s which was exactly a student night and it was where it belonged, never played it since.

At the same night, I also used to play Ricky Allen on Tam-boo, bo jr on tailgate and lorenzo holden on cee jam...

I would still play those three but not the louis chachere....

but that's just my taste having developed, they're all four still funk records, can't make a new genre for the ones I still like even though the difference sounds massive to me now.

[Godzilla]

I still like it.

 

Moreover, it seems crazy to me that because some funkier records are now in favour on the Northern scene, a tune like the Louis Chachere record should stop being described as a funk record and shoe-horned into a made up genre that separates it from the twisted Northern Soul definition of funk.

Aaaarrrrgggh!

[Paul-s]

FONK you very much.

[pow wow mik]

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Darker-Shades-Ltd-Trackin-Down-Jodie-VG-original-FUNK-northern-soul-/291112373010?pt=Music_on_Vinyl&hash=item43c7a64b12

https://www.ebay.com/itm/THE-NEW-ESTABLISHMENT-IN-SOUL-Whip-It-Foolish-Fool-7-45-Grants-Iowa-Funk-Soul-/251494845277?pt=Music_on_Vinyl&hash=item3a8e42cb5d

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Soul-Funk-45-Tommy-Dent-and-Soul-Commandos-Hair-Rapda-mp3-rare-/251504743646?pt=Music_on_Vinyl&hash=item3a8ed9d4de

There's another sub-genre of funk - the real hardcore messy ghetto stuff that's always $1000+ on ebay yet is inepty written and played and sounds like a load of stoners having a jam....who's buying that stuff?!

[Guest Matt Male]

Is it just me or do you also get frustrated when trawling through online lists or ebay sales to listen to clips that are often described as Crossover soul or Funk/soul or gospel/funk when in reality they should file under dire bin ends!

 

Also, I have noticed that what me and Karl Heard used to call 'dirty funk edged soul' is now being confused with what I would call FONK. By this i mean the sort of generic funk or FONK thats better played at student nights where they are drunk and want to wobble about a bit.

 

Is the desperate desire to unearth new tunes leading to generic FONK infiltrating many nights? 

 

 

I've also noticed this Paul. I remember when you and Karl played for us at our night years ago, the absolutely storming uptempo gritty sounds were just brilliant. Now though at lot of the stuff posted up on FB is just dire and reminds me more of Jazz improv than soulful and funky. Too slow in some cases, but in most just totally undancable.

Edited May 29, 2014 by Matt Male

[Steve G]

One man's funk, another man's fonk….

[Mal C]

Heres an example: Listed as Funk/Soul.....nuh! This is FONK!

 

 

Is it really that bad? if I go to a Northern soul night, and I dont go to many these days, I just wanna hear the Impressions/Bobby Kline/Chryslers with the Monarchs Band/Court Davis/The Magnetics/Virginia Blakly and all that...

 

Oh what its like to not be trendy and into FONK!!!

 

Malcolm

[Godzilla]

I don't think anyone is suggesting that The Hen should be played at Northern nights in fairness Mal. And the point I was trying to make is that some people just like funk records and aren't on a crusade to get them played at Northern nights.

 

I think you're missing the point, however, if you're claiming that people who have been buying funk 45s for many years have only done so in order to be considered 'trendy' by folks confined to the NS scene

[Mal C]

Not claiming anything, lets not have that discussion.... I'm just coming over 'FLY'... I appologise.

 

FONK...!!    looked in the urban Dictionary, it says.. fonk this is like sayin u have beef with somebody..fonkin, are they still fonkin with them?

 

Malcolm

 

 

[Godzilla]

*** Godzilla is befuddled and has left this conversation ***

[pow wow mik]

If 'fonk' is owt, it's the slap bass, 'we like to pardee' type 70s stuff surely, like Kool &the gang? Not that there's anything wrong with that either.

The louis chachere is actually closer to new orleans r&b, boogaloo and 60s blue note stuff like lou donaldson than it is to comedy afros and other 'fonky' cliches...it was a mod / blow-up type night I was playing it at with stuff like village callers, mohawks and willie mitchell...cant just dismiss all that as student music.

Edited May 29, 2014 by pow wow mik

[Steve G]

Why don't you call the uptempo stuff "Rare Funk" That way it will differentiate it from "Deep Funk" and also The Meters/Ohio Players/James Brown Funk and also Jazz Funk.....just saying like.....

[Guest Polyvelts]

Wide as the world web may be -  I don't think that many farmers in Ohio have accessed  Lifeline / masters of soul playlists.....yet.  Enjoy it while it lasts !

[Guest in town Mikey]

Why don't you call the uptempo stuff "Rare Funk" That way it will differentiate it from "Deep Funk" and also The Meters/Ohio Players/James Brown Funk and also Jazz Funk.....just saying like.....

 

Rare Funk is too wordy for todays Yoof.

 

Lets call it RANK. Sounds suitably subversive in a punky kind of way. And perfectly describes every song mentioned in this thread  

[Heisenberg]

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Darker-Shades-Ltd-Trackin-Down-Jodie-VG-original-FUNK-northern-soul-/291112373010?pt=Music_on_Vinyl&hash=item43c7a64b12

https://www.ebay.com/itm/THE-NEW-ESTABLISHMENT-IN-SOUL-Whip-It-Foolish-Fool-7-45-Grants-Iowa-Funk-Soul-/251494845277?pt=Music_on_Vinyl&hash=item3a8e42cb5d

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Soul-Funk-45-Tommy-Dent-and-Soul-Commandos-Hair-Rapda-mp3-rare-/251504743646?pt=Music_on_Vinyl&hash=item3a8ed9d4de

There's another sub-genre of funk - the real hardcore messy ghetto stuff that's always $1000+ on ebay yet is inepty written and played and sounds like a load of stoners having a jam....who's buying that stuff?!

Who's buying that ? Guys who are into REALLY RARE stuff...

A lot of this mainly instrumental hardcore funk sounds to my ears as quite soul-less actually. Some Jazz Cats used to call funk "black hardrock" and that's what comes to mind sometimes when I hear heavy jams at an allnighter. Stuff Keb Darge used to play 14 years ago and Eddie Piller  24 years ago. Although it seems to me that the height of funk-mania has passed on the northern scene.

Why not move forward at least into the eighties ? There IS soul

[Guest Matt Male]

I think the problem is rule number one is being forgotten in some cases, "If you can't dance to it don't play it".

[Paul-s]

Loving the debate. It was actually a funk dj who many years ago described bad generic funk as FONK and I knew what they meant.

 

Maybe I picked a bad example. I actually mean all the amorphous stuff that appears on lists and ebay as Soul/funk or Gospel/funk and is absolutely way off the description. Its what I see as a cynical attempt to cash in on this new craze to feed the soul funk.....But it seems the quality of those early days when it took a year or more to find one or two great new discoveries (Soul Injections, Wally Coco, Sir Guy, Delon Washington for example) as a result of hard selective, critical, dance led  investigation, are now compromised by this new rally to discover soul funk sounds. Hence many criticising, often quite rightly, the quality of whats being put forward.

But i guess, thats what happened during Wigan, Stafford etc as loads of tunes were thrown on and off the decks to gauge response.

I would still rather go to a night of exploration that includes that, than a night of the hackneyed oldies.

 

My question was really about the listing of tunes that now seems to say Soul/Funk or Gospel/Funk on everything regardless.

[Guest Polyvelts]

I think the problem is rule number one is being forgotten in some cases, "If you can't dance to it don't play it".

 

not forgetting rule number 2

 

"if you dont really like it, then dont buy it"

Edited May 30, 2014 by Polyvelts

[Heisenberg]

Interesting subject indeed. I think in the end it always boils down to the situation "well gone dry - start digging in the dirt" - rare funk same as rare soul.

Some good might still come out of it, but rarity and quality don't always go together, now do they ?

And: the variety of the Northern Soul spectrum serves as an invitation for misleading descriptions, too. I've seen quite a lot of boring 60s-pop-tunes labeled as NS on evilBay, e.g.

Well, our french friends call modern (ahem) soul always "funk", syncopated or not

[pow wow mik]

Not sure what the complaint is here...that some records aren't very good?

what do you want folks to do, start describing them on ebay as crap-funk, shit-soul, 'average r&b badly lacking a middle 8' etc etc?

even then they could be wrong about that!

I think that's the absolutely best part of buying old records - you look through a load, all described as 'soul', maybe some guessed by the seller to be 'funk' or 'r&b', and you have to figure out which are the good ones for yourself. If some are described wrong then good...I'd sure rather have a newie described wrongly as 'garage' or something than rightly as 'belting rhythm and soul perfect for a club like the pow wow club'....that'd just fuck me up!

you need the ear. It's about the only skill you need for this shit but it must be a rare-ish skill, or most djs wouldn't be only buying tunes that are already big.

personally, I pretty much ignore anyone's description and go by the label, artist name, track title etc. But then it's easy for me...any artist called 'little' or 'big' something will be ok and any track about cleopatra ;-)

Edited May 30, 2014 by pow wow mik

[Guest Matt Male]

For me it's not what it's being sold at, but the way people are posting stuff up on Facebook as the next big thing, but which is 3rd rate at best. There were many brilliant uptempo funk and gospel sounds played in the last few years, played by Paul and Karl and George Mahood and others that have made it into main rooms and played regularly in rare rooms with a real danceable beat that broadened the scope of what people consider northern soul, in the way RnB has been doing for the last 40 odd years. Unfortunately we seem to have lost touch with that great sound (maybe there are no more out there to discover) and drifted into traditional funky 'get down brother' George Clinton sound-a-like shite, which does nothing for me.

[Godzilla]

Not sure what the complaint is here...that some records aren't very good?

what do you want folks to do, start describing them on ebay as crap-funk, shit-soul, 'average r&b badly lacking a middle 8' etc etc?

even then they could be wrong about that!

I think that's the absolutely best part of buying old records - you look through a load, all described as 'soul', maybe some guessed by the seller to be 'funk' or 'r&b', and you have to figure out which are the good ones for yourself. If some are described wrong then good...I'd sure rather have a newie described wrongly as 'garage' or something than rightly as 'belting rhythm and soul perfect for a club like the pow wow club'....that'd just f*ck me up!

you need the ear. It's about the only skill you need for this shit but it must be a rare-ish skill, or most djs wouldn't be only buying tunes that are already big.

personally, I pretty much ignore anyone's description and go by the label, artist name, track title etc. But then it's easy for me...any artist called 'little' or 'big' something will be ok and any track about cleopatra ;-)

 

 

The point you're missing , Mik, is that all listings on ebay are supposed to confirm to to what people into Northern Soul feel is their definition of the genre. And on this site, after god knows how many years we still can't agree whether the definition of soul music should include 50s R&B, white singers, instrumentals, disco records, soulful house, jazz, Latin, records made specifically for the scene or comedy 45s.

(ok I made the last one up but you get the point).

[Chalky]

It isn't just those on ebay etc who are guilty of over doing the promotion side, some of those who predominantly play/feature  this funk/fonk or whatever you wish to call it in their sets, are just as guilty of over doing the promotion when selling and even describing what they are playing.  I listened to one yesterday and vocally it was terrible, the description certainly didn't match the quality.

[Chalky]

For me it's not what it's being sold at, but the way people are posting stuff up on Facebook as the next big thing, but which is 3rd rate at best. There were many brilliant uptempo funk and gospel sounds played in the last few years, played by Paul and Karl and George Mahood and others that have made it into main rooms and played regularly in rare rooms with a real danceable beat that broadened the scope of what people consider northern soul, in the way RnB has been doing for the last 40 odd years. Unfortunately we seem to have lost touch with that great sound (maybe there are no more out there to discover) and drifted into traditional funky 'get down brother' George Clinton sound-a-like shite, which does nothing for me.

 

 

There is very little that has stood the test of time though?  Much of it is played to a small minority shouting louder than the others.  Some of it, the gospel especially is so far removed from what people are used to it will always stay with the minority.  I'm not saying there isn't any good to come out of it, far from, some great stuff but very little crosses over mainstream.

[Zanetti]

Come on Paul, look at the stuff that's labelled as "Northern" it covers everything from white pop to country and western.

 

Yep ... 

[Md Records]

As a good friend of mine in the U.S. ,who by his own admission doesn't know a good Soul record from a bad one said to me in jest "Now I've got a guide book I'm an expert on Soul music" . Because of the books and the worldwide web, he and his buddies, all in their early 60's can now talk with confidence about Funk, Northern and "New Breed" which strangely has now been attached to anything vaguely R & B. When one of his buddies offered me a "Funk" record and said "This was a big record for Keb Darge" I nearly spat my coffee out.Usually when I'm offered records by these "diggers" it's usually accompanied by "which is the good side?"

 

Des

[boba]

i agree with godzilla. james brown was funk and soul. so is the louis chachere clip posted. paul, you're complaining that the seller hasn't correctly described a record within the current temporary micro-genres carved by a scene (which they have no part of) at a specific time? 

 

i'm just glad when i get an unknown r&b / soul record and it's not a country record.

[Godzilla]

In a final twist of fate, some pals of my who play in a band doing southern soul /funk type tunes are doing a few gigs with augmented by a sax player and they've decided to cover The Hen in their set. Strange world of dirty, funk edged, fonky Northern Soul eh?

[Diddy Morgan]

Heres an example: Listed as Funk/Soul.....nuh! This is FONK!

 

 

what the fonk was that !!!!

[Val (Chunky)]

what the fonk was that

Jazz

[Guest gordon russell]

problem with a lot of these.....hard edged soul dj,s.........they never weave in good old dancing soul tunes  which would make their sets much better and also allow the more conservative to hear the good tunes whilst also hearing a smattering of great forgotten older tunes..........good exponents of this are  sean haydon (at burnley) callum simpson    killer when he was about....rich evans..........the dj,s that play one after another banging hard edge  are as bad as a big oldies dj.....they need ta blend.........i,ve highlighted one or two who can,there are a few more..........sadly there are to many who can,t.

Karl Heards sets were so good because he played predominately  mid/uptempo dancing soul with hard edged and down and dirty mid tempo tunes woven in....thus tunes that would have been shunned on first being played  became well accepted and are played all over now   Gene redding being a good example....Always remember folk calling it shit when Karl had it covered up........but hey  looky now..........play hard edged,but weave it in..........or end up with empty dance floors/clubs....the oracle has spoken

[Godzilla]

....the oracle has spoken...

 

 

...but has misunderstood the topic under discussion...

[Liljimmycrank]

In answer you your original post and the whole point of this thread Paul, people will label whatever they can in order to sell the record, especially on Ebay.

If it's on a dealers or an average joe bloggs seller's list as a genre it most certainly shouldn't be defined as, then they just look foolish and are less likely to have your eyes gazing at their lists in future?

 

It's not like it's anything new, and it certainly isn't restricted to the genres you've highlighted.

I don't think it's a desire to unearth the next big thing, more to just cash in on the piece of vinyl they're selling.

 

Trawling through any lists has always been a necessary evil. Wheat from the chaff as they say.

[Guest]

I thought there was a simple rule of thumb when it came to deciding whether a Funk record was also potentially a Northern record,..as in if one could dance inna Northern side-to-side dance style then go head on, however if the rhythm could only dictate an up-and-down Funky pumping style of movement then time to get on the good foot! Enjoy the practise session with James:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zdz88MBWomo