The Discoverer Or The Breaker ?

[Mike]

a rainy tuesday morning mean nothing thread

 

often see "first played" mentioned a lot at times on here but don't see the term "broken by" as often

 

why's that then ?

[Kegsy]

I take it you mean.

 

This was first played by so and so at such and such (small venue), then it was broken by so and so (big name DJ)

at such and such (Big name venue).

[Winnie :-)]

So something along the lines of Four Vandals, first played by Ian Levine and broken by Ginger over Ian's head at Manchester Ritz  

[Mike]

I take it you mean.

 

This was first played by so and so at such and such (small venue), then it was broken by so and so (big name DJ)

at such and such (Big name venue).

 

maybe a bit more broader...

[Kegsy]

So something along the lines of Four Vandals, first played by Ian Levine and broken by Ginger over Ian's head at Manchester Ritz  

 

Or like when the London lads brought a covered up record to the Mecca for Levine to play.

He played it and ten seconds into the record he broke it in two.

Well it was a version of Maisy Doats after all.

Edited May 20, 2014 by Kegsy

[Winnie :-)]

I think I'm right in saying World of Happiness was first played/discovered by Andy Rix (it was certainly him I heard play it first) subsequently I heard an alternate take that Butch played/broke so who would get the credit in that case? Apologies if I've got this wrong, I don't generally pay much attention during 'record talk'

[John Reed]

I take it you mean.

 

This was first played by so and so at such and such (small venue), then it was broken by so and so (big name DJ) at such and such (Big name venue).

Thats why I think all these who played it first threads are rubbish.

What people are asking is, when did an established/big name DJ at an established/big name venue play a tune first.  The said big name DJ could have heard it played at a smaller venue or off of a tape/CD by someone who's not in or is on the periphery of the "big venue" events. Its also another avenue of praising the same big name DJ and raising the pedestal they're on just one notch higher, towards the almighty one. 

Edited May 20, 2014 by John Reed

[Kegsy]

Thats why I think all these who played it first threads are rubbish.

What people are asking is, when did an established/big name DJ at an established/big name venue play a tune first.  The said big name DJ could have heard it played at a smaller venue or off of a tape/CD by someone who's not in or is on the periphery of the "big venue" events. Its also another avenue of praising the same big name DJ and raising the pedetal that they're on just one notch higher, towards the almighty one. 

 

I remember getting dog's abuse because I said that Cecil Washington I Don't Like to Lose

had been played at the Cats years before Richard played it at Wigan, maybe people

just like the thought of being there when a record was first played whether its true or not.

[Kegsy]

Here's a couple teasers for those reading the thread, who played first who broke ?

 

Court Davis

Foster & Stevens on Jerri

Innersection

 

 

None of the above went "big" until many many years had passed, after being first played.

Edited May 20, 2014 by Kegsy

[TheBigO]

So something along the lines of Four Vandals, first played by Ian Levine and broken by Ginger over Ian's head at Manchester Ritz  

Winnie you made a very dark day a whole lot brighter mate!!! Genius x

[TheBigO]

BTW I often see the term first played or my other fave, unknown, and it always raises a smile because invariably the 'unknown' isn't (in some cases stone cold Stafford classic etc!) and the term first played is subjective because if you ask around, excluding the likes of Butch Ady with one-offs etc, someone somewhere usually has spun said disc at local venues. It a strange old world we rummage in 

[Lionelonthevinyl]

Here's a couple teasers for those reading the thread, who played first who broke ?

 

Court Davis

Foster & Stevens on Jerri

Innersection

 

 

None of the above went "big" until many many years had passed, after being first played.

Always thought court davies was a searling/casino spin....but then again I know bugger all! .......Rob

[jocko]

 

Thats why I think all these who played it first threads are rubbish.

What people are asking is, when did an established/big name DJ at an established/big name venue play a tune first.  The said big name DJ could have heard it played at a smaller venue or off of a tape/CD by someone who's not in or is on the periphery of the "big venue" events. Its also another avenue of praising the same big name DJ and raising the pedestal they're on just one notch higher, towards the almighty one.

 

Sorry Mr R you are normally the voice of reason on here (although I did notice you missed out Risk Management on your Banking précis some time ago!) but I have to say that’s rubbish.

It’s at the very heart of what made the Northern scene great, and why most of the current Northern Scene is a Laurel and Hardyesque parody of a once great phenomenon.

If you want to sit and talk soul music all day, I agree it’s irrelevant, but if you want to talk scene its essential. And the correlation between the amount of people who don't get it and the importance of this disappearing and the scene falling flat on its arse is absolute.

And actually I think you will find in our world the Discoverer was often not the DJ, Pete Lawson been a very good example, and indeed Butch before he started DJing, and off course the daddy of them all John Anderson. In many ways in the 80’s they held far higher esteem than the DJ. Therefore for me there is an important distinction between the Discoverer and the Breaker. Both essential and the Discoverer is always going to be the one on the pedestal for the hard core record collector. But on a DJ led scene, whether you like it or not, the DJ deserves credit. And for the majority, not the hard core collectors, they made or broke their week when people just lived to worship at the double decked alter and dance their blues away at the weekend. And that era when Keb and Guy were turning records round weekly in a manic mission to find "the one” was the pinnacle. They were scene gods, deservedly, although very approachable and human like gods it must be said. As the generation above me (maybe two above actually, they are very old) will say about the Mecca, and Levine and Curtis. Its gone for ever but it deserves to be recognised and recorded as its an essential part, possibly the centre, of the Northern Scene. History is often rewritten to suit the current day and I think its important to recognise.

Call me a romantic if you like, or call me a twat since I know you were never on the Northern scene so its probably irrelevant to you, but something I felt the urge to say!

Edited May 20, 2014 by jocko

[SteveM]

Here's a couple teasers for those reading the thread, who played first who broke ?

Court Davis

Foster & Stevens on Jerri

Innersection

None of the above went "big" until many many years had passed, after being first played.

Innersection originally a Mecca play I'd guess? Played at Clifton Hall/Cleethorpes - to little acclaim - after getting it in a soul pack from John Anderson. Big some time later though.

[KevH]

Innersection originally a Mecca play I'd guess? Played at Clifton Hall/Cleethorpes - to little acclaim - after getting it in a soul pack from John Anderson. Big some time later though.

 

I'd have took a guess at CC at the Mecca.

 

Discoverer - brings out an unknown to 99.9%.Hands it to either a breaker,or plays it himself.

Breaker - plays a "sleeper" that's lain dormant all its life.Out there,but not played out.

Edited May 20, 2014 by KevH

[Steve G]

Here's a couple teasers for those reading the thread, who played first who broke ?

 

Court Davis

Foster & Stevens on Jerri

Innersection

 

 

None of the above went "big" until many many years had passed, after being first played.

 

In two of those cases the first person to open the Soul Bowl "soul packs" they came in…..  whoever that was and btw it's Stevens & Foster….

 

I think far too much credit is given to some of the big names on the scene who in a lot of cases just get their cheque books out (or sales boxes) when something has already been broken and proven to be a winner on the dancefloor having been tried at a more local level.……It's the "I must have a copy because I need it for DJing" syndrome. I don't mean all big names because some of them are collectors who find the records or get the first copies before they are fashionable. But it's a really complex question because records come from so many different sources. Incredibly few are truly "unknown" at this point, mostly they are known records that are neglected or very rare so haven't had the exposure. 

Edited May 20, 2014 by Steve G

[Jordirip]

Innersection originally a Mecca play I'd guess? Played at Clifton Hall/Cleethorpes - to little acclaim - after getting it in a soul pack from John Anderson. Big some time later though.

 

Used to get lots of plays '78/'79 in Scarborough by Paul Temple.

[Quinvy]

Every time someone makes a claim about a record there will be vociferous counter claims from others. There can be very little that hasn't been tried or championed by someone after all these years. But the fact is, certain people and certain venues can propel a record to a must have. Yet that same record could have been hammered by another person for years and never been noticed.

 

The main man of course is Butch. He can play almost anything and cause it's value to soar. But there are many other examples where people like Karl Heard have played records like Rudy Love and made them a must have for the Dj's.

 

Everyone knows that John Anderson has discovered more northern than anyone. He is the man, end of.

[Quinvy]

In two of those cases the first person to open the Soul Bowl "soul packs" they came in…..  whoever that was and btw it's Stevens & Foster….

 

I think far too much credit is given to some of the big names on the scene who in a lot of cases just get their cheque books out (or sales boxes) when something has already been broken and proven to be a winner on the dancefloor having been tried at a more local level.……It's the "I must have a copy because I need it for DJing" syndrome. I don't mean all big names because some of them are collectors who find the records or get the first copies before they are fashionable. But it's a really complex question because records come from so many different sources. Incredibly few are truly "unknown" at this point, mostly they are known records that are neglected or very rare so haven't had the exposure. 

 

also Steve tastes have changed, and the flip side of a played out oldie can suddenly sound just right for today.

 

The fact is we all want to own what moves us, that's how it works. If I hear a record and it moves me to dance and think "wow thats fantastic" I'm not going to think " oh but someone else has played it so I better not buy a copy" Come on, there wouldn't have been a scene after a couple of years.

[Steve G]

also Steve tastes have changed, and the flip side of a played out oldie can suddenly sound just right for today.

 

The fact is we all want to own what moves us, that's how it works. If I hear a record and it moves me to dance and think "wow thats fantastic" I'm not going to think " oh but someone else has played it so I better not buy a copy" Come on, there wouldn't have been a scene after a couple of years.

 

Yes agree on tastes changing……I wasn't suggesting don't buy something that has been played by someone else you rascal, we all do that. But there are a number of big names on the scene who have NEVER broken a record of their own, or played anything "unknown" or "untried".  

[Quinvy]

Yes agree on tastes changing……I wasn't suggesting don't buy something that has been played by someone else you rascal, we all do that. But there are a number of big names on the scene who have NEVER broken a record of their own, or played anything "unknown" or "untried".  

 

Sorry mate was just ribbing ya, but I agree entirely about the copyists. It's all about taste at the end of the day, AND whether anyone will dance to it. 

[Kev Cane]

Every time someone makes a claim about a record there will be vociferous counter claims from others. There can be very little that hasn't been tried or championed by someone after all these years. But the fact is, certain people and certain venues can propel a record to a must have. Yet that same record could have been hammered by another person for years and never been noticed.

 

The main man of course is Butch. He can play almost anything and cause it's value to soar. But there are many other examples where people like Karl Heard have played records like Rudy Love and made them a must have for the Dj's.

 

Everyone knows that John Anderson has discovered more northern than anyone. He is the man, end of.

Then the punters (or venue attendee) integrity comes into question Phil, only interested if "Big name" plays it, not interested if Bilbo Baggins plays it. Get your point, its a very valid one

Edited May 20, 2014 by kev cane

[TheBigO]

And actually I think you will find in our world the Discoverer was often not the DJ, Pete Lawson been a very good example, and indeed Butch before he started DJing, and off course the daddy of them all John Anderson. In many ways in the 80’s they held far higher esteem than the DJ.

 

Agree 100% with this Jocko and what Steve G says above too. When I was doing the whole Stafford 6T's Mafia thing I was getting tapes through the door on a daily basis from collectors etc packed with sounds, many of which went on to become monsters so i feel that its the collectors that have always been the ones pushing the scene forward. 

On the subject of Steve G he's been a major influence on me over the years and his taste in soul is fantastic, only today I've added another slew of TOONS! to that never ending Wants list that he's put me on to via his radio shows, damm the Soulful Silver Fox that he is!!!!   

[dthedrug]

 It must be strange when someone joined the RARE SOUL SCENE after the days of the named venues closed (TWISTED WHEEL, TORCH, CATS, UP the JUNCTION, BLACKPOOL MECCA, SAMANTHAS, YATE, St IVES & PETERBOROUGH, HOOWARD MALLETT, EARLS BARTON, BLETSOE, CLEETHORPS, PENDALEM, THE CENTRAL CLUB.

These clubs & there DJ's broke many sounds, and for many of us on the scene use to refer to a 45 as either from the venue it was first played or by the DJ who played it first,  many a 45 in the 7ts was linked to mecca DJ's Ian Levine Colin Curtis, & Tony Jebb, by name, Wigan Casino DJ's did not get this, sounds that were big at the Casino were described as Wigan sounds in the early years,

Today apart from a few DJ's only records played by BUTCH get the name check, also after Wigan, the venue that get checked by name are the 100 CLUB & the STAFFORD SOUND, the only DJ that got named regularly was Guy Henigan (of course there were others I have not included) as people who broke records.

As for who found the records 1st is hard to say, Ian is the main one, the lads who went to the BIRDS NEST made many discoveries, in particular Dave Rivers, Mick Smith Clive Everat (big Clive) and of course I must mention Ian Clark, Pete Wid,, and all the original 6ts soul boys who joined Ady C after the big venues closed, thus making their efforts into the famous long running 100 CLUB,

Sadly today with the lack of a named top venue to attend, & the fact that through the inter net many rare records have become available to collectors, but yet to broken at club level, because the DJ's play it safe by playing the same old stuff time & time again, salutation to this is to let younger people onto the scene and give the opportunity to discover sounds that are never played & to establish a #1 venue which is theirs, in other words it's time to move over & enjoy the new blood of forgotten RARE SOUL, that belongs to the scene 100%

It's the only way foreword for the scene, rather than local soul scene never mixing with each other?  I hope this makes sense to you all, as I tend to drift from the point in question??  DAVE K  

[Lenny Harkins]

It’s at the very heart of what made the Northern scene great, and why most of the current Northern Scene is a Laurel and Hardyesque parody of a once great phenomenon.
(quote]

Brilliant Jock,
This has been on my lips for years, but I was never quite educated enough to roll it out in such a fashion.
Cheers

Edited May 21, 2014 by Lenny Harkins

[Chalky]

I think I'm right in saying World of Happiness was first played/discovered by Andy Rix (it was certainly him I heard play it first) subsequently I heard an alternate take that Butch played/broke so who would get the credit in that case? Apologies if I've got this wrong, I don't generally pay much attention during 'record talk'

 

Other way round Win, Butch first as well as Jesse James "it's Alright".  Butch covered his take of WOH as The Sherry's. 

Edited May 21, 2014 by chalky

[Frankie Crocker]

I wonder how many 'first played by' claims are actually true. Likewise, 'first played at'... Surely credit should go to the crate diggers, trackers and travellers who did the hard work, but the goods don't come with guarantees and deeds of provenance. So these claims, though often aired, are just opinion or hearsay, like the statement 'only X known copies', a soul scene cliche of little significance.

[Kegsy]

 

As for who found the records 1st is hard to say, Ian is the main one, the lads who went to the BIRDS NEST made many discoveries, in particular Dave Rivers, Mick Smith Clive Everat (big Clive) and of course I must mention Ian Clark, Pete Wid,, and all the original 6ts soul boys who joined Ady C after the big venues closed,

DAVE K  

 

A man after my own heart, what ever happened to Clive ?.

I still see Rivers and Mick and a few other old London lads but Clive was

always the one you would remember from those days.

[Winnie :-)]

Other way round Win, Butch first as well as Jesse James "it's Alright".  Butch covered his take of WOH as The Sherry's. 

Cheers Chalk, I know I should wash my ears out before indulging in 'record talk'

[dthedrug]

A man after my own heart, what ever happened to Clive ?.

I still see Rivers and Mick and a few other old London lads but Clive was

always the one you would remember from those days.

 HI ALL....."BIG CLIVE" was the dogs! talked & looked like the 3rd member of the ROCKNEY DUO Chaz & Dave, but then again he reminded of my uncles John & George who were both in the FIRM, Working SOHO talking in a whisper through the side of mouth, yes I think RONNIE & REGIE would of approved of "big CLIVE".

As far as I'm aware he is still in regular contact with MICK & BILLY MAC (TORCH GO'ER & DJ), In 72 we all DJ at the DIVE in HITCHIN,

SOUL FACT, CLIVE bought back from the states FRANKIE BEVERLEY, I think he sold it to TONY JEBB,

MICK is in wolves this SATURDAY, at the RECORD FAIR, I will get the latest update on the man "Big Clive Everett.  DAVE K

[Scal]

As far as I know Innersection was played as a new release from the States at the Mecca in the '76/77 years.

I wrote to the label / World Wide Sound Distributors Incorporated and a bloke called Jack Fishback sent me a couple of copies with some Country and Western record by Goolsby & Plante and Serena Johnson "All Work And No Play" which Colin Curtis bought for a fiver.

The same week Oscar Perry sent me "Mainstring"....which Colin also got from me.

[Winsford Soul]

I couldn't give a toss who played/discovered a certain record. If I like it I would have danced to it. And when I used to DJ if I liked/ could afford it I would buy it. No politics in my life .

 

Steve

[KevH]

As far as I know Innersection was played as a new release from the States at the Mecca in the '76/77 years.

I wrote to the label / World Wide Sound Distributors Incorporated and a bloke called Jack Fishback sent me a couple of copies with some Country and Western record by Goolsby & Plante and Serena Johnson "All Work And No Play" which Colin Curtis bought for a fiver.

The same week Oscar Perry sent me "Mainstring"....which Colin also got from me.

 

aaaah.!! Great memories.Mainstring,love it.    

[Len]

I've always been very interested in who discovered records (also credit where credit's due) Then after that (and they are two very different things) who broke the records, as in who managed to 'sell' them to the dance floor, because that bit can take some doing. Again, credit where credit's due for doing so.

 

Nothing sinister or political in this, I just find it interesting.

 

All the best,

 

Len  

[Len]

Btw, my first 'taste' of such a thing was when I read the back of the Destiny L.P 'The Record Collector', where it stated things like 'Arin Demain - Silent Treatment' - First played by Soul Sam at......etc. At the time I don't think I knew who Soul Sam was (or any of the D.J's mentioned) but I remember it absolutely intrigued me, so I guess that is where my interest stemmed from.

 

All the best,

 

Len  

Edited May 23, 2014 by LEN

[Andy Rix]

Other way round Win, Butch first as well as Jesse James "it's Alright".  Butch covered his take of WOH as The Sherry's. 

 

Mark had this first ... years before I got it ... but it's easy to get confused as his was the 'demo' version that he christened 'The Sherry's' and the one I got off Eddie Holman was the 'finished' version by Shirley Turner ... same song, different singers and different arrangements .... I sent Shirley a rough recording of the Sherrys version and she confirmed that this was what she was given to learn the song.

 

So Winnie you might had heard me play it first but all credit goes to Mark as he inspired me to go and find it

 

Does anybody recall a small piece in Black Echoes in the late 70s saying the vocal version of 'Bird Walkin' had been found in a bin ... always intrigued me .. who found it and what happened to it

 ... one would assume this was the copy Marc ended up with but I would not like to jump to that conclusion

 

Andy

[sir cumference]

Mark had this first ... years before I got it ... but it's easy to get confused as his was the 'demo' version that he christened 'The Sherry's' and the one I got off Eddie Holman was the 'finished' version by Shirley Turner ... same song, different singers and different arrangements .... I sent Shirley a rough recording of the Sherrys version and she confirmed that this was what she was given to learn the song.

 

So Winnie you might had heard me play it first but all credit goes to Mark as he inspired me to go and find it

 

Does anybody recall a small piece in Black Echoes in the late 70s saying the vocal version of 'Bird Walkin' had been found in a bin ... always intrigued me .. who found it and what happened to it

 ... one would assume this was the copy Marc ended up with but I would not like to jump to that conclusion

 

Andy

Maybe it was Mark/Marc who found it?He has always been ahead of the game!

Edited May 26, 2014 by sir cumference