Creations-Say Say Baby Info

[Dobber]

hi gang

 

I know that the creations track ' say say baby' is unissued,but has it ever shown up on a acetate? is it a jobete song?

 

also what cd is it on?

 

thanks

 

lee

[Chalky]

It is I think actually the Serenaders.  Unissued Jobete/Motown recording, Sidney Barnes, George Kerr, Timothy Wilson.

 

Robb K might know more as it turned up in the 80's, not sure if on the tapes from him that Rod got or via the acetates that went through JM. 

Edited April 24, 2014 by chalky

[Robbk]

Chalky is correct.  We originally taped it off an uncredited Jobete Music acetate with just the title.  I just used the name The Creations as a "filler" name.  When Rod S. copied my tapes, naturally he wrote down the "filler names" of my still-unknown artists/groups.  "Say, Say baby was sung by The Serenaders in late 1963, and is listed so on a CD. 

[NEV]

Which means, fill yer boots Dabber and get that carver made cos records like this need to be heard

[Chalky]

It is on The Lp that Rob Marriott put out I think. 

Edited April 25, 2014 by chalky

[KevH]

It is on The Lp that Rob Marriott put out I think. 

 

 

Or was it Chris and Dave Kettle.?

[Chalky]

Rob and Chris for sure, maybe Dave as well.

[Benji]

Don't know about Rob, but Chris was involved. And yes, it's on the LP.

[Dobber]

Don't know about Rob, but Chris was involved. And yes, it's on the LP.

yes its chris Marriott,i have the lp,its from 1993,poor quality im afraid,some of the songs sound like they are from a cassette tape,but the effort is there,and the lp comes with an old school hand written tracklist ' triangle connoisseur sounds''the motown/hitsville masters vol1'...don't know if it reached a vol2?

 

but the creations/serenaders is the tune for me.

[Benji]

I still like the LP. All but one tune (Eddie Hollad- Outside looking in) unreleased. Sound quality differs but most tracks play quite good. My favourite track is Angel Doll by the Temps.

 

 

 

PS: Never reached vol.2

[Dobber]

I still like the LP. All but one tune (Eddie Hollad- Outside looking in) unreleased. Sound quality differs but most tracks play quite good. My favourite track is Angel Doll by the Temps.

 

 

 

PS: Never reached vol.2

is the eddie Holland the only track that was issued onto a 45,or are some of the others turned up over the years on French eps...etc..

[Chalky]

The Lp was probably dubbed from cassette tape & 45.  Eddie Holland was the only released one and included as it was a biggie for Rob late 80's.

[Dobber]

The Lp was probably dubbed from cassette tape & 45.  Eddie Holland was the only released one and included as it was a biggie for Rob late 80's.

I suppose there were a few things that came out around that time....the worst one for me...and im guilty of buying it...was the frank Wilson instrumental...sounded like it was made on a casio keyboard...got it at keele in the early days...haha

[AlanB]

Say, Say Baby came out some years ago the Marginal (Belgian) CD: Detroit Rare Tracks Vol.3.  Bootleg label I think, quite widely distributed and copies sometimes come up on ebay etc. . 

[Chalky]

here's the library details from Don't Forget The Motor City....

 

Say, Say, Baby (Sidney Barnes-George Kerr-Timothy Wilson-Howard Curry) publ. Jobete

The Serenaders; recorded Hitsville, completed 16-Jun-63 ; produced by Raynoma Liles Gordy, Berry Gordy

[rel date unknown] [acetate]; 45 (M): [no catalogue number]

[Dobber]

Chalky is correct.  We originally taped it off an uncredited Jobete Music acetate with just the title.  I just used the name The Creations as a "filler" name.  When Rod S. copied my tapes, naturally he wrote down the "filler names" of my still-unknown artists/groups.  "Say, Say baby was sung by The Serenaders in late 1963, and is listed so on a CD. 

does a 7" acetate exist of the tune,or was it off a 10" with other bits on it?

[Robbk]

It was a normal 7" Jobete Music acetate with a "cream" (off-white) pasted on label, with the normal: "Jobete Music Co." typed in black ink, and the normal song title typed in red ink (just like the hundreds of other Jobete Music acetates from 1959-1970).  It had no artist name on it.  It was mere for additional proof of song publishing rights.  Now, we know it was sung by The Serenaders (members: Sidney Barnes-George Kerr-Timothy Wilson-Howard Curry), and recorded at Hitsville in June, 1963.

[Chris L]

hi gang I know that the creations track ' say say baby' is unissued,but has it ever shown up on a acetate? is it a jobete song? also what cd is it on? thanks 

lee

 

Wonder how many groups were called the Creations ?

[Dobber]

It was a normal 7" Jobete Music acetate with a "cream" (off-white) pasted on label, with the normal: "Jobete Music Co." typed in black ink, and the normal song title typed in red ink (just like the hundreds of other Jobete Music acetates from 1959-1970).  It had no artist name on it.  It was mere for additional proof of song publishing rights.  Now, we know it was sung by The Serenaders (members: Sidney Barnes-George Kerr-Timothy Wilson-Howard Curry), and recorded at Hitsville in June, 1963.

great info my friend...dare I ask where this acetate resides

[Robbk]

Wonder how many groups were called the Creations ?

We had a discussion on that on another thread.  Motown's Creations were supposedly a local Detroit group, who had a previous tie-in to their Motown producer. Andre Williams.  HE was originally from Chicago, and commuted back and forth between the two cities.  It has been stated by some sources that one of this Motown group's member was a cousin of his (partly corroborated by 2 Williams writer credits on their Melo-dy record release). 

 

Then, there was the Chicago group who had the 1962 release on Penny Records.  Several "sources" suggest that they had NO relation to the Motown group (but I think that they must have had, due to their existence at roughly the same time and the connection with Chicago's Andre Williams, and the Williams family involvement in the so-called "Detroit group". 

 

The "Creations" (who worked with Jo Armstead) on Globe were totally unrelated, as were the so-called "Creations" on Zodiac, who were really Bridges, Knight and Eaton.  Then, there were The Creations on Jamie, who were an East Coast group (Philadelphia? or NJ) who worked with Phil Spector in New York.  There was also an earlier Doo Wop group from New Jersey, and one from NewYork.  I believe there was also a late '50s West Coast group and an instrumental group or two, with that name.  Bob A knows a lot about this subject.

[Robbk]

great info my friend...dare I ask where this acetate resides

I have no idea.  A LOT of those acetates we found in The Vault later "disappeared" from Motown, and they popped up later in auctions on The Internet.  They must have been "lifted" from there by unscrupulous characters.  I heard some people say that they "rescued" them from being thrown away, and were told they could take them.  But, I don't believe that.  Many of them ended up in the UK.  I don't know about that one in particular.  It's sounds to me more like a Belgian tempo and beat than NS, but it's not really a "Beach" or Shag tempo.

[Dobber]

I have no idea.  A LO,T of those acetates we found in The Vault later "disappeared" from Motown, and they popped up later in auctions on The Internet.  They must have been "lifted" from there by unscrupulous characters.  I heard some people say that they "rescued" them from being thrown away, and were told they could take them.  But, I don't believe that.  Many of them ended up in the UK.  I don't know about that one in particular.  It's sounds to me more like a Belgian tempo and beat than NS, but it's not really a "Beach" or Shag tempo.

that's interesting info,about 10 years ago I ended up with a Patrice Holloway acetate called 'for the love of mike' and a Brenda Holloway acetate called 'lonely boy',i wonder if they came from the same source? the story was that they had been rescued from a junk skip? either way I wouldn't mind the serenders acetate,the tune just ticks all the boxes for me,just love the tempo,the vocal style,and the instrumentation!

[Robbk]

The large batch of acetates and studio demos that were pilfered out of Motown's offices were auctioned off around 1990, if I remember correctly.  With a few more batches during the early 1990s through about 1994, if memory serves.

[Chris L]

We had a discussion on that on another thread.  Motown's Creations were supposedly a local Detroit group, who had a previous tie-in to their Motown producer. Andre Williams.  HE was originally from Chicago, and commuted back and forth between the two cities.  It has been stated by some sources that one of this Motown group's member was a cousin of his (partly corroborated by 2 Williams writer credits on their Melo-dy record release). 

 

Then, there was the Chicago group who had the 1962 release on Penny Records.  Several "sources" suggest that they had NO relation to the Motown group (but I think that they must have had, due to their existence at roughly the same time and the connection with Chicago's Andre Williams, and the Williams family involvement in the so-called "Detroit group". 

 

The "Creations" (who worked with Jo Armstead) on Globe were totally unrelated, as were the so-called "Creations" on Zodiac, who were really Bridges, Knight and Eaton.  Then, there were The Creations on Jamie, who were an East Coast group (Philadelphia? or NJ) who worked with Phil Spector in New York.  There was also an earlier Doo Wop group from New Jersey, and one from NewYork.  I believe there was also a late '50s West Coast group and an instrumental group or two, with that name.  Bob A knows a lot about this subject.

 

The Spellbinders started off as the Creators !! They even cut a record.

[Dobber]

The Spellbinders started off as the Creators !! They even cut a record.

spellbinders...cracking lp!

[Chalky]

Looking at the tape listings, the acetate for Say Say Baby came over in the batch of 60 odd acetates that were sold 89ish.

Edited April 27, 2014 by chalky

[Chris L]

spellbinders...cracking lp!

 

THE BEST EVER !!!

[Robbk]

Looking at the tape listings, the acetate for Say Say Baby came over in the batch of 60 odd acetates that were sold 89ish.

Exactly!  That jibes with my memory of them being auctioned off roughly, about 1990.

[Dobber]

dont know why the hell i put the tempos on the thread back in 2014?

 

Edited July 28, 2019 by dobber

[Northern Soul Uk]

Just bought the album

[Rugby Soul Club]

Just came across one of these in a box to sell.

Any idea of the worth now-a-days please?

Not on Discogs

[Robbk]

On 26/04/2014 at 23:36, Robbk said:

We had a discussion on that on another thread.  Motown's Creations were supposedly a local Detroit group, who had a previous tie-in to their Motown producer. Andre Williams.  HE was originally from Chicago, and commuted back and forth between the two cities.  It has been stated by some sources that one of this Motown group's member was a cousin of his (partly corroborated by 2 Williams writer credits on their Melo-dy record release). 

 

Then, there was the Chicago group who had the 1962 release on Penny Records.  Several "sources" suggest that they had NO relation to the Motown group (but I think that they must have had, due to their existence at roughly the same time and the connection with Chicago's Andre Williams, and the Williams family involvement in the so-called "Detroit group". 

 

The "Creations" (who worked with Jo Armstead) on Globe were totally unrelated, as were the so-called "Creations" on Zodiac, who were really Bridges, Knight and Eaton.  Then, there were The Creations on Jamie, who were an East Coast group (Philadelphia? or NJ) who worked with Phil Spector in New York.  There was also an earlier Doo Wop group from New Jersey, and one from NewYork.  I believe there was also a late '50s West Coast group and an instrumental group or two, with that name.  Bob A knows a lot about this subject.

We have since determined that Motown's Creations were a Toledo group, who paid Motown to record them and press up their record.  Of course, Toledo, Ohio, was part of The Detroit Metropolitan area.  We knew The Zodiac group was Bridges, Knight, & Eaton (The Brothers of Soul).

But, we've also determined that "Say, Say, Baby was NOT sung by The Creations, but by The Serenaders(George Kerr and Sidney Barnes' New Jersey-based group, led by Timothy Wilson.

Edited July 28, 2019 by Robbk

[Rugby Soul Club]

On 27/07/2019 at 23:47, Rugby Soul Club said:

Just came across one of these in a box to sell.

Any idea of the worth now-a-days please?

Not on Discogs

Also, how many were pressed as we have two in just this house. Maybe it's just because we were at the same venues when it was sold.

Edited July 30, 2019 by Rugby Soul Club

[Ficklefingers]

On ‎28‎/‎07‎/‎2019 at 19:59, Rugby Soul Club said:

Also, how many were pressed as we have two in just this house. Maybe it's just because we were at the same venues when it was sold.

I would also be interested to know how many were pressed.. can't have been many, surely ?? I also have a copy so would like to have an idea of current value too, please ??

TIA

Edited August 2, 2019 by FickleFingers
spelling

[Dobber]

On 06/05/2014 at 19:38, dobber said:

dont know why the hell i put the tempos on the thread back in 2014?

 

my copy here shows it was 77 of 500 pressed,i had 2 copies a few years back and sold one on ebay,think i got about 50 quid for it

[Ficklefingers]

Yea, I saw that on your copy.. but mine is a blank label both sides - no sticker, although it came with the same photocopied insert/track listing

If it was £50 you got for your copy @dobber, then I'll have to dig mine out with a view to listing it in sales.. Happy Days !!

Edited August 2, 2019 by FickleFingers

[Benji]

Mine's #94. It was pretty dear at the time I recall, 25 quid or so?

I've been selling most of my vinyl compilation over the last few years. But this one I'll never sell. Even if it was just for Chris Marriott's artwork.

[Chalky]

On 27/07/2019 at 23:47, Rugby Soul Club said:

Just came across one of these in a box to sell.

Any idea of the worth now-a-days please?

Not on Discogs

They seem to have been around the £30 mark in the past, can't imagine it selling for more than £50 tbh.

[Shsdave]

On 26/04/2014 at 22:36, Robbk said:

We had a discussion on that on another thread.  Motown's Creations were supposedly a local Detroit group, who had a previous tie-in to their Motown producer. Andre Williams.  HE was originally from Chicago, and commuted back and forth between the two cities.  It has been stated by some sources that one of this Motown group's member was a cousin of his (partly corroborated by 2 Williams writer credits on their Melo-dy record release). 

 

Then, there was the Chicago group who had the 1962 release on Penny Records.  Several "sources" suggest that they had NO relation to the Motown group (but I think that they must have had, due to their existence at roughly the same time and the connection with Chicago's Andre Williams, and the Williams family involvement in the so-called "Detroit group". 

 

The "Creations" (who worked with Jo Armstead) on Globe were totally unrelated, as were the so-called "Creations" on Zodiac, who were really Bridges, Knight and Eaton.  Then, there were The Creations on Jamie, who were an East Coast group (Philadelphia? or NJ) who worked with Phil Spector in New York.  There was also an earlier Doo Wop group from New Jersey, and one from NewYork.  I believe there was also a late '50s West Coast group and an instrumental group or two, with that name.  Bob A knows a lot about this subject.

Robb were the Creations on Paul Winley any of the above ?

Thanks

 

[Rugby Soul Club]

10 hours ago, Chalky said:

They seem to have been around the £30 mark in the past, can't imagine it selling for more than £50 tbh.

Thanks Chalky, I was starting to think my posts were invisible

[Robbk]

21 hours ago, SHSDave said:

Robb were the Creations on Paul Winley any of the above ?

Thanks

 

I doubt that.  If they were one of the groups mentioned, however, they'd be most likely to be The Creations who recorded for Jamie, as they were from New Jersey.