Boot V's Original Tamala Lewis You Wont Say Nothing Marton

[jocko]

 

There is something that you have forgotten in your summary,the dancers PAY to gain entry to the venues,

so why can't they hear their favourite tracks?.

 

If there is an original to be played,great,if not play the next best thing on a record,it's about the music .

 

Surely you just need a jukebox or a laptop then, why a record?

Off for some popcorn and a cigar.......

[jocko]

 

You can't take Discogs as gospel, whoever entered the record on Discogs supplied the information and that could be anyone and they could say anything.

Totally agree, there are some hilarous mistakes on Discogs for 45's.

[Pete S]

 

Totally agree

 

How dare you!     

[Russ Vickers]

I don't harangue anyone,we are all grown men and women and have a mind of our own,which means that I can express myself

and voice my opinion on this forum  as i like and will defend the right of you and anyone else to do exactly the same,

freedom of speech that's all it is.

 

As for attending Northern Soul venues is concerned,i attend them frequently and all over the Country,do you?.

A well respected Northern Soul DJ is a friend and he has the Blue Original Tamala Lewis in his box,i always ask him

to play it and he always does.

 

I know plenty of self respecting Northern Soul DJ's who will play the Orange label Tamala Lewis,they play the music

for the Dancers,because they want to hear and dance to it.

 

There is something that you have forgotten in your summary,the dancers PAY to gain entry to the venues,

so why can't they hear their favourite tracks?.

 

If there is an original to be played,great,if not play the next best thing on a record,it's about the music .

 

I respect your opinion & everyone elses, unfortunately in this particular case you are wrong, but you refuse to admit it..I'm a dancer & I want to hear the original not a fake...& yea, I've attended one or two venues now & again :-)...give it up my friend, your flogging a dead horse..

 

Best Russ

[Mustang]

Seriously. I'd stop digging now mate if I were you

Yes,i suppose you are right mate,thanks.

[Mustang]

I respect your opinion & everyone elses, unfortunately in this particular case you are wrong, but you refuse to admit it..I'm a dancer & I want to hear the original not a fake...& yea, I've attended one or two venues now & again :-)...give it up my friend, your flogging a dead horse..

 

Best Russ

Okay Russ i hear you,all the best mate.

 

Ron

[Mustang]

You can't take Discogs as gospel, whoever entered the record on Discogs supplied the information and that could be anyone and they could say anything.  

Sounds about the same as Soulsource then!!!.

[Mustang]

You've really got no idea have you.  A bootleg or counterfeit wouldn't have any other details, they are made to look the same and to deceive.  Discogs proves nothing except whoever entered the info has no idea as well. Discogs isn't compiled by the labels or label owners but users of Discogs.   If another company had produced this under license then it would say so.

 

You said it was done by RCA yet you can't even back that claim up.  There is no RCA matrix or catalogue numbers anywhere on the disc.  Come back with some real evidence of this being a legitimate 2nd issue or give up.  

 

Like I said before, those who try and justify something like this being legitimate is because they wish to play it out without being accused of playing boots.

Okay Mr Bigshot you win,i won't push it any further.

 

In your all-knowing library,who produced and released the orange label record then?,

please tell me as i would like to know,i won't comment just tell me.

 

Thanks,

 

Inferior Soulie.

Edited April 29, 2014 by Soul Flyer

[Chalky]

Okay Mr Bigshot you win,i won't push it any further.

 

In your all-knowing library,who produced and released the orange label record then?,

please tell me as i would like to know,i won't comment just tell me.

 

Thanks,

 

Inferior Soulie.

 

Zzzzzzzzzzzz.....here we go with the usually mardy comments

 

you are the one who claimed you knew who was behind it and it was fully legit, we are still waiting for you to substantiate these claims but all you have done is offer a dodgy discogs entry

[jocko]

 

Sounds about the same as Soulsource then!!!.

 

You are incredibly disdainful of the site. Isn’t that potentially the same as any internet site, or even some of the less scrupulous newspapers favoured by some on here, you just need to be smart enough to know what sources to trust and who to trust. Being around for a few years generally helps with that as have some of the people commenting, Robb K having been collecting for 112 years, allegedly, and in the States, that rare breed from back in the day. I know who I would trust, Robb or Discogs.

I would say most people would think this site is the best resource bar none for knowledge on Northern and related stuff, record history etc. And most people know discogs is a usefull source of information but to be wary of things around the more obscure records and always to be checked.

You obviously know better than most.

Edited April 29, 2014 by jocko

[Mustang]

Zzzzzzzzzzzz.....here we go with the usually mardy comments

 

you are the one who claimed you knew who was behind it and it was fully legit, we are still waiting for you to substantiate these claims but all you have done is offer a dodgy discogs entry

   Judge and Jury passed sentence on me M'lud,i cannot comment any further 

 

       Goodbye       

[Robbk]

 

 

You are incredibly disdainful of the site. Isn’t that potentially the same as any internet site, or even some of the less scrupulous newspapers favoured by some on here, you just need to be smart enough to know what sources to trust and who to trust. Being around for a few years generally helps with that as have some of the people commenting, Robb K having been collecting for 112 years, allegedly, and in the States, that rare breed from back in the day. I know who I would trust, Robb or Discogs.

I would say most people would think this site is the best resource bar none for knowledge on Northern and related stuff, record history etc. And most people know discogs is a usefull source of information but to be wary of things around the more obscure records and always to be checked.

You obviously know better than most.

I've only been collecting for 61 years, but I've noticed many errors in discogs, and I've helped a lot of the label discographers fill in their holes and correct errors.  As stated above, Discogs having an entry is no verification that that given entry can be trusted.

[Robbk]

Here is the evidence for Marton

 

www.discogs.com

 

 

Tamala Lewis

 

Tracklist : A.  You Won't Say Nothing

 

           

                  Written by  E.Harris,C.Haskins,G.Clinton

 

 

                  B.   If You Can Stand Me

 

 

 

Notes :  Produced by Parlor Productions.

 

              Blue label release

 

              Also released with an Orange label

 

 

 

 

 

So,both records produced and released by Parlor Productions,no mention of any other company or dealer

and no mention of bootleg either.

 

Why is it no person looking at these postings could tell me that information?

 

              

Not bloody likely!  Parlor Productions was defunct before 1965. Marton records was defunct by early 1965.  IF there was any participation, at all, in 1978, by the former owner of Marton, it was as the individual rights owner, taking his master tape and label art, and having new records pressed up.  The orange re-issue is a facsimile, other than by colour, and so, "Parlor Productions" is written on the label, because the new label was taken from the original label art.  The fact that "Parlor Productions" is written on the orange records is the so called "source" for that discog entry.  Parlor Productions likely had a co-owner with Clinton that financed the operating funds.  Clinton's partnership with him, and Marton's owner (IF he was a different person, was likely ended when the partnership dissolved.  I'll bet if we were to ask George Clinton if he got any money from the sale of the orange Tamala Lewis pressings, he'd have said, "Huh???  IF the former owner of Marton Records was involved AT ALL, I'd bet Clinton never got his share.

 

What we DID tell you, that you've ignored, is that there is NO RCA pressing code on the Marton records,  As stated above, had RCA pressed and market and distributed them such a code would have been in the trailer of those records, as well as printed on the labels, and a reference to RCA's participation would have been described in print on the labels.

[Mustang]

I've only been collecting for 61 years, but I've noticed many errors in discogs, and I've helped a lot of the label discographers fill in their holes and correct errors.  As stated above, Discogs having an entry is no verification that that given entry can be trusted.

Okay Robb,apologies and respect to you,no intent to offend,you obviously know more than most.

 

Sorry mate,

 

Ron

[Mustang]

Not bloody likely!  Parlor Productions was defunct before 1965. Marton records was defunct by early 1965.  IF there was any participation, at all, in 1978, by the former owner of Marton, it was as the individual rights owner, taking his master tape and label art, and having new records pressed up.  The orange re-issue is a facsimile, other than by colour, and so, "Parlor Productions" is written on the label, because the new label was taken from the original label art.  The fact that "Parlor Productions" is written on the orange records is the so called "source" for that discog entry.  Parlor Productions likely had a co-owner with Clinton that financed the operating funds.  Clinton's partnership with him, and Marton's owner (IF he was a different person, was likely ended when the partnership dissolved.  I'll bet if we were to ask George Clinton if he got any money from the sale of the orange Tamala Lewis pressings, he'd have said, "Huh???  IF the former owner of Marton Records was involved AT ALL, I'd bet Clinton never got his share.

 

What we DID tell you, that you've ignored, is that there is NO RCA pressing code on the Marton records,  As stated above, had RCA pressed and market and distributed them such a code would have been in the trailer of those records, as well as printed on the labels, and a reference to RCA's participation would have been described in print on the labels.

Based on everything that you have said and your vast experience in this field,would you say that it is a legitimate 2nd press?.

 

I am just trying to find an answer here Robb,i wasn't ignoring information deliberately,please correct me if i am wrong,

information around the orange label record has been and is still vague,i am very passionate about Tamala Lewis and this

track and i am trying to get the truth,i don't wish to offend you or anyone else on the subject and apologise if i have.

As the saying goes "it can be a rocky road" to find what you are looking for,if there is an injustice on the orange record

then i want to know.

 

All the best to you Robb

 

Ron

Edited April 30, 2014 by Soul Flyer

[Garethx]

Originals were pressed at Bestway.

[Pete S]

Originals were pressed at Bestway.

 

Sounds like a supermarket chain :-)

[Goldsoul]

Originals were pressed at Bestway.

I doubt that. Bestway were owned by Larry Uttal who put most of his Bell and subsequent Arista product there. The company used mainly styrene.

I'm tempted to say the plant in Little Ferry, NJ that manufactured Paul Kyer's 60's works. Catamount records owned that particular outlet. It could also have been the Essex plant in Newark.

[Garethx]

It doesn't look like any records from either of those plants. It looks like a Bestway 45. They produced vinyl for custom clients alongside styrene for Bell and some of the other large indies such as Atlantic and Jubilee/Josie. Bestway was less than ten miles away from Plainfield. I don't know if Larry Uttal ever owned Bestway as such. Bestway operated the Amy, Mala and Bell labels until Uttlal bought them from Bestway owner Al Massler in the early 60s.

 

The LW in the runout represents LongWear who manufactured the stamped parts.

[Chalky]

Bestway usually have a stamped B followed by number don't they? 

[Garethx]

Bestway usually have a stamped B followed by number don't they? 

There's a raised 'B' on the styrene Amy Mala Bell 45s. Will have a rummage through in the next dew days for some Bestway vinyl 45s.

[Goldsoul]

It doesn't look like any records from either of those plants. It looks like a Bestway 45. They produced vinyl for custom clients alongside styrene for Bell and some of the other large indies such as Atlantic and Jubilee/Josie. Bestway was less than ten miles away from Plainfield. I don't know if Larry Uttal ever owned Bestway as such. Bestway operated the Amy, Mala and Bell labels until Uttlal bought them from Bestway owner Al Massler in the early 60s.

The LW in the runout represents LongWear who manufactured the stamped parts.

I doubt Clinton would have dealt with Bestway. I maintain they were pretty much styrene.

Essex plant in Newark is my 1st choice. They pressed Smoke and lots of small labels as did Stan Krause's fathers plant in Little Ferry(that's where the Robby Lawson came from).

If you have any more detailed knowledge let's add to the conspiracy theories. I knew a lot of the characters mentioned in this thread first hand, however as we are talking 1965, sadly 'A Walk In The Black Forest'- Horst Jankowski was blasting out of Mum's speakers with New Jersey a lifetime away!

[Chalky]

Found this on t'net.....

 

Depends on the pressing. Some have "Bestway" script on the dead wax, others have a simple "B." And the -BW is on the record label.  Given the info we have it is unlikely it is a Bestway Pressing.

Edited April 30, 2014 by chalky

[Mellorful]

I honestly wish you guys would meet up and put all this accumulated knowledge down in a book, you get the royalties and people like myself get educated.

Thanks for sharing this.

Edited April 30, 2014 by mellorful

[Robbk]

Based on everything that you have said and your vast experience in this field,would you say that it is a legitimate 2nd press?.

 

I am just trying to find an answer here Robb,i wasn't ignoring information deliberately,please correct me if i am wrong,

information around the orange label record has been and is still vague,i am very passionate about Tamala Lewis and this

track and i am trying to get the truth,i don't wish to offend you or anyone else on the subject and apologise if i have.

As the saying goes "it can be a rocky road" to find what you are looking for,if there is an injustice on the orange record

then i want to know.

 

All the best to you Robb

 

Ron

To be quite frank, there is no way to tell for sure.  But. with NO evidence or clues pointing towards rights owner's involvement, it is wisest to assume, until we get more information, that it is a bootleg.  If RCA had been involved, it would have been pressed in RCA's regional plant, and would have had an RCA pressing code.  It does not.

[Robbk]

Okay Robb,apologies and respect to you,no intent to offend,you obviously know more than most.

 

Sorry mate,

 

Ron

No problem.  I wasn't offended.  I know what hyperbole is.  I just don't want people to think I'm 85.  I'm 68 going on 69 years old.  I started  collecting records at a very young age.

[Ady Potts]

The original has a small stamp in the dead wax in the shape of the spade on playing cards, as in ace of spades. Don't know if this helps with the pressing plant ? You can see it in the attached picture in the camera flash glare above the letter A in MARTON.

 

[Mustang]

To be quite frank, there is no way to tell for sure.  But. with NO evidence or clues pointing towards rights owner's involvement, it is wisest to assume, until we get more information, that it is a bootleg.  If RCA had been involved, it would have been pressed in RCA's regional plant, and would have had an RCA pressing code.  It does not.

Thanks for your wisdom Robb,it is appreciated.

 

Now my quest begins.

 

In the next few years I will be riding a Harley Davidson on Route 66 in the States,i will be starting in New York though,

i will try to gather some evidence there and possibly find some clues along the way,it make take some time,but

with some luck and good fortune hopefully answers may exist.

 

Thanks again,

 

 

Ron.

[Guest turntableterra]

The original has a small stamp in the dead wax in the shape of the spade on playing cards, as in ace of spades. Don't know if this helps with the pressing plant ? You can see it in the attached picture in the camera flash glare above the letter A in MARTON.

 

005.JPG

I described it as a blood donor style heart shape but this is a better description

 

. I have a letter from George Clinton to berry gordy arranging a meeting with him and tamala lewis, if I can locate it I will post it.

 

[Garethx]

The thing which led me to think it was a Bestway was the visual similarity to this 45:

 

Bennie Turner on Skymac, an early 60s Bestway vinyl press. Note the similarities in typesetting and layout—Trade Gothic for the record title, Spartan for many of the other credits. The Bennie Turner uses Erbar Condensed for the "Preview Copy" and Cheltenham for "Bennie Turner". Tamala Lewis doesn't use the Cheltenham font but other than that looks like it was set in the same shop.

 

 

On further research it appears Bestway had no in-house print studio at that time and just took artwork from clients. These labels were apparently set at a company called Co Service in Newark, which was indeed later acquired by Bestway, moved to their Mountainside New Jersey factory and renamed Shell Press. So from 66 onwards only Bestway labels looked like this but at the time of the Marton release it could indeed have been pressed at any of the New Jersey factories Kev lists above.

[Chalky]

I described it as a blood donor style heart shape but this is a better description

 

. I have a letter from George Clinton to berry gordy arranging a meeting with him and tamala lewis, if I can locate it I will post it.

 

The RCA code for CAGTM is on the label.  P6KM 4783.

P= 1963

4= Custom, i.e. Motown in this case.

K= 45

M=.Mono

 

The 4783 is the master number.

[Chalky]

The original has a small stamp in the dead wax in the shape of the spade on playing cards, as in ace of spades. Don't know if this helps with the pressing plant ? You can see it in the attached picture in the camera flash glare above the letter A in MARTON.

 

005.JPG

 

Not sure who uses that symbol, it could simply be something to do with the mastering company and not necessarily something to do with the pressing company?

Edited May 1, 2014 by chalky

[Guest turntableterra]

The RCA code for CAGTM is on the label.  P6KM 4783.

P= 1963

4= Custom, i.e. Motown in this case.

K= 45

M=.Mono

 

The 4783 is the master number.

I knew this info, I thought there was some special code they had, thanks chalky

[Robbk]

"Ask The Lonely" by The Four Tops, which was released at a time fairly close to Marton 1002, pressed by RCA, had a code of " S4KM-0703-1-E " ALL stamped into the deadwax.  S-stands for 1965, (4KM same as listed above by Chalky), 0703 number of the pressing from the start of 1965 to that point, 1 stands for 1st press run, E stands for "RCA EAST pressing plant"-(e.g. Harrisburg, Pennsylvania). If Marton 1002 orange press run in 1978 had been pressed by RCA, it would have had whatever code they were using then.  I don't own ANY records that are that recent pressed by RCA, so don't know their late 1970s codes.  But, clearly, in any case, there is no pressing plant press code whatsoever.