Volumes - Ain't Gonna Give You Up

[Guest Bearsy]

I know it was a 1970 release on Karen and The Volumes only release on that label after leaving Motown and that they disbanded in 1971.  I also know they was signed on other labels previously and had a big hit with, I love you.  

But what more do we know about this actual record.  Was it a hit locally and who discovered it and first played it on our scene ?

 

thanks 

[Mace]

I'd also be interested in more info on this record....I posted it as a possible contender in the thread entitled 'The bootleg that everybody sells as an original'....here's what I posted...

"Apparently, on the Solid Smoke LP which includes the above track Ollie McLaughlin writes in the liner notes that this was never released?

Don't have the LP to quote exact comment, but could this be the (bootleg) 45 in question.....?"

[boba]

this was far from a hit locally, that's why it's so rare. i'm sure it's not a bootleg.

[Robbk]

I never heard it on Chicago or Detroit radio, and I never saw it, even in the big Detroit Soul record collections.  And I drove to Detroit every other Saturday to look for records.  It's a dead rare record.  I don't like it, in any case, and agree with those who didn't like it and why it wasn't a hit.  It's so rare that I'd have expected it to be booted.  I haven't heard of nor seen a boot of it.  But, if a gun were pot to my head to bet on whether it was booted or not, I'd guess that it was (or should have been).

[Sunnysoul]

Do any other Karen releases have this label design ?

 

 

 

At least 6 sales on popsike in the last 6 years ranging from $436 US to $1064 US.

[boba]

i swear there was another release on karen with that label design but i must be confused, i don't see one in the discography that i know has that design.

 

both sides of the record are great imo, and the jimmy delphs version is way worse than the volumes version imo.

[Guest Bearsy]

I have not seen this label design before on any other Karen release but then again Ollie had different label designs on later releases on the label.  

 

Everything I have found to do with the Karen label has so far indicated that this Was released in 1970.   If it was and it bombed with hardly any sales could the rest of been melted back down.  

 

Who ho was the first to play it over here does anyone know and what year etc ?

[Guest Bearsy]

I'd also be interested in more info on this record....I posted it as a possible contender in the thread entitled 'The bootleg that everybody sells as an original'....here's what I posted...

"Apparently, on the Solid Smoke LP which includes the above track Ollie McLaughlin writes in the liner notes that this was never released?

Don't have the LP to quote exact comment, but could this be the (bootleg) 45 in question.....?"

 

Its on the Detroit Gold 2 Compilation Mace.    Would be interested to see the sleeve notes of Ollie saying it was never released. 

 

Saying that though it don't mean that he never got any pressed and might of pressed just a small quantity to use as demos and when no one was interested he didn't bother releasing it.   

 

On a website I found of the Volumes it talks about them having this as a release in 1970.   

 

Will check all this out more I'm intrigued now lol

[Tlscapital]

Do any other Karen releases have this label design ?

 

 

 

At least 6 sales on popsike in the last 6 years ranging from $436 US to $1064 US.

[Rob Moss]

"A vocal group with some very soulful voices, the Volumes were derived from the same quartet that recorded for Chex, where they waxed their big 1962 'I love you' hit, and later for Jubilee, Impact and Inferno. 'Ain't gonna give you up' may have been recorded in 1971, but it's a throwback to that classic early 60's group sound. Previously unreleased, 'Ain't gonna give you up' radiates pure vocal magic." DETROIT GOLD Volume 2, Solid Smoke Records 1984.

[Mace]

"A vocal group with some very soulful voices, the Volumes were derived from the same quartet that recorded for Chex, where they waxed their big 1962 'I love you' hit, and later for Jubilee, Impact and Inferno. 'Ain't gonna give you up' may have been recorded in 1971, but it's a throwback to that classic early 60's group sound. Previously unreleased, 'Ain't gonna give you up' radiates pure vocal magic." DETROIT GOLD Volume 2, Solid Smoke Records 1984.

Is that the exact quote from Ollie on liner notes?

If so first 2 words of this paragraph indicate it was never released.....?

"Previously unreleased, 'Ain't gonna give you up' radiates pure vocal magic."

DETROIT GOLD Volume 2, Solid Smoke Records 1984.

[Rob Moss]

Quoted verbatim.

[purist]

Hang on a minute, wasn't there a similar mistake on another of those Solid Smoke albums where the liner notes claimed a record was unreleased when it wasn't? Either on the Deon Jackson one or The Capitols, more likely the DJ one, but I presumed that this was a guess made by the record compiler (or a simple case of confusion/lack of direct knowledge) not a direct quote from Ollie.
Why should we set so much store on what a compilation albums notes say, when it was compiled many years later by somebody who was nothing to do with the original group or label (cant remember now, was the company a California reissue label? was it something to do with Rhino?)

sorry memory's sketchy, will go check on the albums if neccesary but they're not easy to get at, so hoping someone else has them to hand to check?

[Pete S]

Looks legit to me.

[TOAD]

Hang on a minute, wasn't there a similar mistake on another of those Solid Smoke albums where the liner notes claimed a record was unreleased when it wasn't? Either on the Deon Jackson one or The Capitols, more likely the DJ one, but I presumed that this was a guess made by the record compiler (or a simple case of confusion/lack of direct knowledge) not a direct quote from Ollie.

Why should we set so much store on what a compilation albums notes say, when it was compiled many years later by somebody who was nothing to do with the original group or label (cant remember now, was the company a California reissue label? was it something to do with Rhino?)

sorry memory's sketchy, will go check on the albums if neccesary but they're not easy to get at, so hoping someone else has them to hand to check?

correct it was d j

[Mace]

I was told liner notes were written by Ollie but I don't have the album to confirm.

Of course it could be incorrect, but worth debating at least...

;o)

[TOAD]

Volume 2 does not say Ollie wrote the sleeve notes a Mr t and m did

[Mick Holdsworth]

"A vocal group with some very soulful voices, the Volumes were derived from the same quartet that recorded for Chex, where they waxed their big 1962 'I love you' hit, and later for Jubilee, Impact and Inferno. 'Ain't gonna give you up' may have been recorded in 1971, but it's a throwback to that classic early 60's group sound. Previously unreleased, 'Ain't gonna give you up' radiates pure vocal magic." DETROIT GOLD Volume 2, Solid Smoke Records 1984.

 

This can be taken with a pinch of salt though. If you look at the sleeve notes on the Deon Jackson LP SS-8020 from exactly the same time, both "Hard To Get A Thing Called Love" and its flipside "When Your Love Is Gone" are both deemed "Previously Unreleased". Which is just wrong.

 

Cheers

Mick

 

Damn - find this out and eight others post while I'm typing

Edited April 14, 2014 by Mick Holdsworth

[Mace]

This can be taken with a pinch of salt though. If you look at the sleeve notes on the Deon Jackson LP SS-8020 from exactly the same time, both "Hard To Get A Thing Called Love" and its flipside "When Your Love Is Gone" are both deemed "Previously Unreleased". Which is just wrong.

Cheers

Mick

Damn - find this out and eight others post while I'm typing

Or maybe they are boots as well......?

Just joking before lots of knickers get twisted!

[Steve G]

History being re written again…..Ollie McLoughlin says it wasn't released, and everyone believes him  

Sure it was in the Dearlove Detroit book and that pre dated Solid Smoke's albums by a couple of years at least…….QED. Legit record. 

[Benji]

Hang on a minute, wasn't there a similar mistake on another of those Solid Smoke albums where the liner notes claimed a record was unreleased when it wasn't? Either on the Deon Jackson one or The Capitols, more likely the DJ one, but I presumed that this was a guess made by the record compiler (or a simple case of confusion/lack of direct knowledge) not a direct quote from Ollie.

Why should we set so much store on what a compilation albums notes say, when it was compiled many years later by somebody who was nothing to do with the original group or label (cant remember now, was the company a California reissue label? was it something to do with Rhino?)

sorry memory's sketchy, will go check on the albums if neccesary but they're not easy to get at, so hoping someone else has them to hand to check?

 

I seem to remember there's a mistake on the Capitols' album as well. It quotes "Let it all reach out" as unreleased whereas it was released as by "The Four Bros".

[Mace]

So the Jimmy Soul Clark with the similar label design as posted earlier, is listed online as a 1968 release.

Is this correct?

If so how can Jimmy Soul Clark (cat K106) precede date wise The Volumes (cat K100) if it's a 1970 / 1971 release?

What are K102 through to K105 release dates ?

Edited April 14, 2014 by Mace

[Mace]

https://www.45cat.com/record/k106?newwindow=true

[Tony Smith]

What Steve said 

 

Ady Pierce had a small quantity of Volumes back in 88 where I (and most of the people I know) got it £15.

[Tony Smith]

So the Jimmy Soul Clark with the similar label design as posted earlier, is listed online as a 1968 release.

Is this correct?

If so how can Jimmy Soul Clark (cat K106) precede date wise The Volumes (cat K100) if it's a 1970 / 1971 release?

What are K102 through to K105 release dates ?

 

 

 

Ollie Mac label numbering is all over the place from time to time so I don't think you can really take this discrepancy as anything other than that. 

[purist]

I'll stick my neck out and say if anybodys worried they've got a boot and want to offload it then I'll buy it

and just so you know you're not on your own Mick Holdsworth, while i was typing this Tony Smith popped up and said exactly what I was gonna say, that the Karen/Carla/Moira etc numbers are all over the place

[Mace]

Ollie Mac label numbering is all over the place from time to time so I don't think you can really take this discrepancy as anything other than that.

Maybe so, but that quite a significant time difference on a basic number system....any date info for the other K10? Numbers to clarify?

[Premium Stuff]

History being re written again…..Ollie McLoughlin says it wasn't released, and everyone believes him

Sure it was in the Dearlove Detroit book and that pre dated Solid Smoke's albums by a couple of years at least…….QED. Legit record.

It wasn't in "A Collector's Guide To Detroit".

Cheers

Richard

[Ady Croasdell]

^{It seems to have been the last of the 1500 series and its not unusual to have a different design tried out near the end- as with Brilliant Korners on Modern.}

^{Sequentially 1970 looks right on this as the previous release was reviewed in Billboard in Aug 1970, If we could date the same design Jimmy Clarke it would help but that's from a very random 100 series.}

 

^{I'm sure it's legit, the LP sleevenote writer 30 years or so ago would not have the research tools we have now.}

[Guest Bearsy]

Wasn't all the Karen 1500 series produced out of Atco.  If so would Atco have certain Matrix numbers and stamps etc etc we could tie in date wise with other Atco produced records.  

 

also so let's just say that this was never officially released by Ollie would that mean that he never actually got a few pressed up that he could of used as demos to gauge if it would be popular enough to press a load more so in other words use them like a demo/promo without a stamp indicating they could be that.  

 

I have looked on various site relating to Karen and all of them has this down as a 1970 release.   

[Guest Bearsy]

Ain't Gonna give you up.    In the run out it has "ARCHER" .  it has "K101" then near that it has a small "(2)"  then it has "GM"  and also an "R"  all of these are scratched in and the label is moulded on

 

Am I losing you,  in the run out has "K100"  it also has "GM" and the "R"  and all these are scratched in too.  

[Tony Smith]

Volumes isn't distributed by ATCO.

[Guest Bearsy]

Volumes isn't distributed by ATCO.

Yeah I've just read that Most of Karens label was distributed via Atco 

 

Also just noticed that on the front of the Detroit Gold album it says "Original Karen, Carla & Moira Nuggetts by"  with a list of artists/groups and the Volumes is obviously one of them. 

 

Think its fair to say that this being a Boot is nonsense 

[Garethx]

1551 seems to be a master number rather than a catalogue number, which is K100.

 

Maybe intended to be an Atco distributed record, but never used. Not all the 1500s are Atco distributed. The Sharon McMann for example is a RCA custom pressed job without any Atco distribution.

[Steve Foran]

If it helps I had an Atlantic Test Pressing of Rosemary by Popcorn Wylie. As we know it got released on Karen. Wonder where that lives now? 

[Ady Croasdell]

1551 seems to be a master number rather than a catalogue number, which is K100.

 

Maybe intended to be an Atco distributed record, but never used. Not all the 1500s are Atco distributed. The Sharon McMann for example is a RCA custom pressed job without any Atco distribution.

There was a 1500 series that ran from 1524 to 1551 with only three or four numbers missing so I doubt it was K100, that was the matrix #. And the 1500 series was logical in release dates too.

Edited April 14, 2014 by ady croasdell

[Tony Smith]

1551 seems to be a master number rather than a catalogue number, which is K100.

 

Maybe intended to be an Atco distributed record, but never used. Not all the 1500s are Atco distributed. The Sharon McMann for example is a RCA custom pressed job without any Atco distribution.

Four Bros Let It All Reach Out, Kelly Michaels, Matt Lucas, Gambrells, Jimmy Delphs "Dancing A Hole.." aren't ATCO distributed either.

[Garethx]

Also the Karen version of "Let Me Down Easy" by Bettye Lavette and a couple of the later Capitols 45s: both issues "When You're In Trouble" with different flip sides. Those are all pressed at ARP, like "Dancing A Hole In The World" on Carla which has a Ter-Mar master #.

 

I think these two later Karen 45s–The Volumes and Jimmy Soul Clark–form a distinct series. Both pressed at Archer and the only use of this particular logo.

[jocko]

 I think I was one of the first ones to call into question this 45's heritage, based on conversations that may have been figments of my imaginations, late 80's, but was shouted down at time, not unusual for me on here I suppose

 

My comment at the time was this was discussed as unreleased at time of LP and I thought the 45 only appeared later, originally mostly from Japan. I got mines from Soul Bowl at time, pretty sure it was on his front page focus for a while for £7.50, and I though he had his from Japan. It was called into question by some collectors at that time, although with hindsight it seemed to be the ones that hadn't snapped one up!

 

Both John Anderson and Ady P are out and about now, in fact I think Ady might be on here, as it would be interesting to hear of their findings. Other one to ask is Mr "Gilly" Gilbert, as I thought I had a discussion back in the day on this and he had not heard of it or seen it in issued format until the 45 appeared, in what seemed like quantity but looks like its been a couple of handfuls.  Pretty sure it was him that told me about it before me snapping it up, but that goes for about 1/3 of my collection! As always with this, its almost 30 years, the discussions were held in dark smoke filled rooms, I was over stimulated with excitment at the music, therefore everything needs to be caveated with lots of converstations from that day run into one now, leading to contrary confusion.

 

So it would be good to hear from the 3 people mentioned their side, sure Mr Welding can ask John Anderson for some input and we can get close to the final story? It would also be interesting to know where the 45 first turned up, i.e. did anyone in the 70's see one?

Edited April 14, 2014 by jocko

[Raremusicdirect]

Could anyone check to see if the release just prior

 

Karen 1550 A Jimmy Delphs Am I Losing You 1969 Karen 1550 B Jimmy Delphs Love, I Want You Back 1969

 

has scratched in Archer or stamped in

 

Thanks

[Iancsloft]

Im sure I was told years ago the 45 was never distributed and most of the copies still resided at Ollie Mc house 

[Ady Croasdell]

 

I think these two later Karen 45s–The Volumes and Jimmy Soul Clark–form a distinct series. Both pressed at Archer and the only use of this particular logo.

Sorry Gareth, I don't agree, there are no other 1500 matrix numbers just catalogue numbers and if you look at the Jimmy Clark the matrix is at the top left (C101) and the Karen # at the bottom which would make the 1551 the Volumes record catalogue number and K101 the matrix. The label design links them but not the numbering series.

[Modernsoulsucks]

I met Ollie once at Bob Mays shop in '79.

 

I doubt he could remember anything.

 

ROD

[Pete S]

If it helps I had an Atlantic Test Pressing of Rosemary by Popcorn Wylie. As we know it got released on Karen. Wonder where that lives now? 

 

I don't know Steve but I've had one of those as well!

[Steve G]

Could anyone check to see if the release just prior

 

Karen 1550 A Jimmy Delphs Am I Losing You 1969 Karen 1550 B Jimmy Delphs Love, I Want You Back 1969

 

has scratched in Archer or stamped in

 

Thanks

 

1550 was an Atlantic distributed single. No Archer stamp, but Archer was a pressing plant and Atlantic probably used other ones. Nothing says you have to use the same one each record….In going through my Karen's there's a 717 too which was a 1971 release. 

[Raremusicdirect]

1550 was an Atlantic distributed single. No Archer stamp, but Archer was a pressing plant and Atlantic probably used other ones. Nothing says you have to use the same one each record….In going through my Karen's there's a 717 too which was a 1971 release. 

 

Agreed just looking for trends..............

[Garethx]

Could anyone check to see if the release just prior

 

Karen 1550 A Jimmy Delphs Am I Losing You 1969 Karen 1550 B Jimmy Delphs Love, I Want You Back 1969

 

has scratched in Archer or stamped in

 

Thanks

That's one of the Atco distributed ones. You can tell which plant it was pressed at by a note at the end of the matrix on the label.

 

KA-19576-then a two letter code which Atlantic used to denote pressing plants: SP for Specialty in Pennsylvania, PL for Plastic Products in Tennessee, MO for Monarch, California, BW for Bestway in New Jersey, AM for ARP in Michigan etc.

[Garethx]

Sorry Gareth, I don't agree, there are no other 1500 matrix numbers just catalogue numbers and if you look at the Jimmy Clark the matrix is at the top left (C101) and the Karen # at the bottom which would make the 1551 the Volumes record catalogue number and K101 the matrix. The label design links them but not the numbering series.

Yes. I was wrong in that 15XX is a catalogue number rather than a master number.

[Marc Forrest]

I found my vg(+) copy in Detroit in 1993

[Premium Stuff]

Also the Karen version of "Let Me Down Easy" by Bettye Lavette and a couple of the later Capitols 45s: both issues "When You're In Trouble" with different flip sides. Those are all pressed at ARP, like "Dancing A Hole In The World" on Carla which has a Ter-Mar master #.

 

I think these two later Karen 45s–The Volumes and Jimmy Soul Clark–form a distinct series. Both pressed at Archer and the only use of this particular logo.

 

 

Sorry Gareth, I don't agree, there are no other 1500 matrix numbers just catalogue numbers and if you look at the Jimmy Clark the matrix is at the top left (C101) and the Karen # at the bottom which would make the 1551 the Volumes record catalogue number and K101 the matrix. The label design links them but not the numbering series.

 

My take on this is as follows:

 

Jimmy "Soul" Clark catalogue/release number K106 - it is at the bottom of the label on both sides. The matrix number for the track "Soul" is C 100 in the left centre of the label. The matrix for "I Blew A Good Thing" is C 101 in a similar position.

 

On the Volumes - the matrix for "Am I Losing You" is K 100 which is also in the left centre of the label. The matrix for "Ain't Gonna Give You Up" is K 101 in a similar position. That would make the catalogue/release number 1551 - which is at the bottom of the label on both sides.

 

So I agree that while the label designs are the same, the numbering system is different.

 

Cheers

 

Richard