The Bootleg "everybody" Sells As An Original

[Guest Gogs]

might not apply now but one from the early days was Luther Ingram- if it's all the same to you babe - on Hib

Edited April 7, 2014 by Gogs

[Mick Sway]

Yeah, easy to spot if you know what to look out for. But if you don't then it's pretty easy to assume it's an original. Mind, Richard was talking about pre-internet days, i.e. no bootleg guide around. I guess most boots of Jerry Cook (or Alexander Patton) on Capitol were sold as originals.

 

Another one I don't recall back then on lists as a bootleg is Joe Douglas on Playhouse.

 

Pretty well established on the scene that Jerry Cook and Alexander Patton boots were cut with ripped off Capitol Labels.

Funnily enough I was checking out a copy of  "A little lovin" tonight out of curiosity for that reason, see here:

(Though this looks legit to my eyes)https://www.ebay.com/itm/Alexander-Patten-A-Lil-Lovin-Sometimes-Northern-Soul-45-Capitol-HEAR-/191121504221?_trksid=p2054897.l4275&autorefresh=true

or see this one:

https://www.popsike.com/ALEXANDER-PATTON-A-LITTLE-LOVINSOMETIMES-US-CAPITOL-EX-/271294035368.html

The other well known one is "the Dalton Boys"  white VIP demo, which I once bought from a well known US dealer who had

sourced a number of copies from the UK. This was some years ago and I got a full refund. He now sells these are re-issues.

It seems to me that many of those mentioned above are well known boots, many having design variations from the

originals.

Mel Britt, the Malibu's, Sandra Philips,Mary Saxton and The Vondell's are all pretty good look a likes, but relatively easy to check these days.

Interesting thread though.

[Frankie Crocker]

How about the Sequins on Renfro then? Currently in the USA and today saw Johnny Moore on Soultown instead of Date - why was this label chosen for several boots?

[Mace]

Volumes - I ain't gonna give you up - Karen???

Apparently, on the Solid Smoke LP which includes the above track Ollie McLaughlin writes in the liner notes that this was never released?

Don't have the LP to quote exact comment, but could this be the 45 in question.....?

Keep calm, it's only a suggestion..... ;o)

[Garethx]

Pretty well established on the scene that Jerry Cook and Alexander Patton boots were cut with ripped off Capitol Labels.

Funnily enough I was checking out a copy of  "A little lovin" tonight out of curiosity for that reason, see here:

(Though this looks legit to my eyes)https://www.ebay.com/itm/Alexander-Patten-A-Lil-Lovin-Sometimes-Northern-Soul-45-Capitol-HEAR-/191121504221?_trksid=p2054897.l4275&autorefresh=true

or see this one:

https://www.popsike.com/ALEXANDER-PATTON-A-LITTLE-LOVINSOMETIMES-US-CAPITOL-EX-/271294035368.html

The other well known one is "the Dalton Boys"  white VIP demo, which I once bought from a well known US dealer who had

sourced a number of copies from the UK. This was some years ago and I got a full refund. He now sells these are re-issues.

It seems to me that many of those mentioned above are well known boots, many having design variations from the

originals.

Mel Britt, the Malibu's, Sandra Philips,Mary Saxton and The Vondell's are all pretty good look a likes, but relatively easy to check these days.

Interesting thread though.

When these boots first surfaced our understanding of the entire record manufacturing process stateside was much more limited. I recently dug out my Alexander Patten pressing and compared it to genuine original 45s manufactured at Capitol's Scranton, Pennsylvania plant. It's identical in terms of typesetting and the absence of certain markings which we all once thought a genuine Capitol 45 'should' have. This is complex and worth opening a second topic for this 45 alone.

 

Bottom line is that Capitol manufactured 45s in at least three factories. Each pressing will have different layout and different manufacturing markings. When these Alex Patten copies first appeared it was different enough from the first US copies for people to scream 'Boot!' but now I'm actually unsure.

[Guest Pointman]

Many boots are passed off as originals because there's a lack of information. First pressing? Pressing variation? Legitimate second pressing? Bootleg? 

 

I've seen boots of the International GTO's and Rufus Wood on Espanola passed off as originals on more than one occasion. Mostly because the seller just didn't know any better. Damn shame. 

[Mellorful]

You would struggle to reproduce vinyl, paper and especially the ink to the specs of the 60's original.  Most techniques and materials have changed since then, particularly with paper and ink.  The return couldn't be justified given the time, effort and expense you would have to put in.  Not saying it couldn't be done, just highly unlikely.  They would quickly be spotted as well, not a lot get's past collectors and dealers, not for long anyhow.

I guess it would depend on how much buyers are prepared to pay for OV. If you have people willing to pay $1000 for a 45 then it may be worth a criminal bootlegger/forger sourcing paper and ink; they could get vinyl pressed at 100 copies and appropriate labels produced and attached with relevant deadwax etching (Proceeds = $100K).  By claiming to have discovered a box of records in the cellar the criminal could probably carry it off because there probably are untouched boxes of legitimate vinyl in uncle Fred's Detroit basement.  

[Godzilla]

I guess it would depend on how much buyers are prepared to pay for OV. If you have people willing to pay $1000 for a 45 then it may be worth a criminal bootlegger/forger sourcing paper and ink; they could get vinyl pressed at 100 copies and appropriate labels produced and attached with relevant deadwax etching (Proceeds = $100K).  By claiming to have discovered a box of records in the cellar the criminal could probably carry it off because there probably are untouched boxes of legitimate vinyl in uncle Fred's Detroit basement.  

 

Don't you think that if this was really possible (and viable) that given the number of dodgy characters on the Northern Soul scene it would have already been done?

[Quinvy]

I guess it would depend on how much buyers are prepared to pay for OV. If you have people willing to pay $1000 for a 45 then it may be worth a criminal bootlegger/forger sourcing paper and ink; they could get vinyl pressed at 100 copies and appropriate labels produced and attached with relevant deadwax etching (Proceeds = $100K).  By claiming to have discovered a box of records in the cellar the criminal could probably carry it off because there probably are untouched boxes of legitimate vinyl in uncle Fred's Detroit basement.  

 

This is a non starter unless you are prepared to wait years to trickle them out. Any more than two copies of a £1000 record suddenly coming onto the market will cause an outcry and the price to plummet. Cries of "turned up" and "dodgy" will abound.

[Quinvy]

J and the Ws   -   Was good enough to fool one of the country's no make that worlds top dealers who reputedly pay £1900 - Yes hold it to light we all know that now

Salvador  -   I held Richard Bs original next to the look alike and the colour was close but not close enough and the PB is a big give-away 

So Im surprised that it is the Salvador but not doubting it  

 

Apologies then Mick, I have never had the chance to compare them personally. I was quoting what other collectors have told me. Something about the dimples in the vinyl being very difficult to spot.

To be honest I think that any boot can be recognised as such if you have an original to compare. And these days with high res scans available to view on line it's not like back in the day.

[Labeat]

So in a nutshell then it's safe to say weather a 45 you are about to buy is only the real thing if held against a legit copy

that say a dj has in his box? I wish it was as convenient as that. What about all the hassle you have to go through buying

a tune from the States and realizing it's a fake.... be it cheap or expensive.... you are in a quandary at times.

[Chalky]

I guess it would depend on how much buyers are prepared to pay for OV. If you have people willing to pay $1000 for a 45 then it may be worth a criminal bootlegger/forger sourcing paper and ink; they could get vinyl pressed at 100 copies and appropriate labels produced and attached with relevant deadwax etching (Proceeds = $100K).  By claiming to have discovered a box of records in the cellar the criminal could probably carry it off because there probably are untouched boxes of legitimate vinyl in uncle Fred's Detroit basement.  

 

I doubt you could source the ink these days and any paper would be some what aged and beyond its use I would imaging?  It would be too much hassle, from forging the masters/stampers to sourcing the ingredients of the day, like I said the soul 45 collector aren't daft.

[Premium Stuff]

Some great suggestions and debate here folks.

 

I just wish the bugg*r had told me what it was at the time 

 

Cheers

 

Richard

[Labeat]

Some great suggestions and debate here folks.

 

I just wish the bugg*r had told me what it was at the time 

 

Cheers

 

Richard

 

It's a mugs game Richard

[Swifty]

Was EDDIE DANIELS - IS HE BETTER THAN ME - BOOT , booted (no pun intended) as I had one in the late 70's or early 80's and have no idea if it was proper , I thought it was at the time, obviously , as I didn't think it had been booted ? Paid £3 for it , which wasn't cheap really.

 

Swifty 

[Chalky]

Was EDDIE DANIELS - IS HE BETTER THAN ME - BOOT , booted (no pun intended) as I had one in the late 70's or early 80's and have no idea if it was proper , I thought it was at the time, obviously , as I didn't think it had been booted ? Paid £3 for it , which wasn't cheap really.

 

Swifty 

 

Yes it is one of those with PB in the runout. 

[Swifty]

Thanks Chalky , don't have it anymore , so will never know although I would imagine it was a boot. Must be a fairly hard boot to get as you never seem to see them ?

[Chalky]

Thanks Chalky , don't have it anymore , so will never know although I would imagine it was a boot. Must be a fairly hard boot to get as you never seem to see them ?

 

It must be one of the rarest boots?  Rarely see it or an original. 

[Guest Matt Male]

I'm guessing he was talking about Pages - Heartaches and Pain.

[Billywhizz]

I'm guessing he was talking about Pages - Heartaches and Pain.

if so matt i have ovo in japan now

[Len]

Another candidate is Miki Farrow on Karate.

 

God yes, I remember getting my original (after 20 years of looking / hoping) and thought it a nice gesture to give my pressing to Ping (from Huntingdon area) as he liked the record - I joked around with both copies for a while, then........"Hang on, which was in which hand?!"  ........I think I gave him the right one  

 

 

 

Len  

 

P.s - I expect the pressing of that is quite rare anyway  

Edited April 8, 2014 by LEN

[Labeat]

It must be one of the rarest boots?  Rarely see it or an original. 

 

Could be a case of the boot being rarer than the real'n.... who else other than Butch in UK plays it?

[Daz]

Moses Smith and Pages  

[Chalky]

Could be a case of the boot being rarer than the real'n.... who else other than Butch in UK plays it?

 

Andy D for some time now. 

[Benji]

Moses Smith and Pages  

 

Pages a good contender. I started buying from UK lists in the very early 90s and I don't recall seeing this one listed as a pressing before the early internet days.

Edited April 8, 2014 by Benji

[Mellorful]

I doubt you could source the ink these days and any paper would be some what aged and beyond its use I would imaging?  It would be too much hassle, from forging the masters/stampers to sourcing the ingredients of the day, like I said the soul 45 collector aren't daft.

I sincerely hope you are right but doubt it. Parts of Africa, Asia and Middle East have the old technology and products to produce the items to 1960's standard including inks and paper. Furthermore, organised criminal groups would exploit the cheap labour in those parts of the world and lack of state regulation would facilitate the creation of forged vinyl for all types of music (eg Beatles, Elvis etc).

I appreciate by UK standards it is hard to see how this could be economic for a forger but look outside advanced western nations and it is easy to see the potential.

I doubt the music industry would spend time and resources communicating with the likes of the Chinese authorites to address bootlegging old vinyl as a media for artists who recorded tunes 50 years ago, can you?

On a positive note if vinyl is bootlegged to a standard where it is impossible to tell the forgery it will no doubt give pleasure to the buyer and audience. 

[Quinvy]

You forgot about the most important thing, the sound quality. Every boot I've ever played has been terrible.

[Labeat]

You forgot about the most important thing, the sound quality. Every boot I've ever played has been terrible.

 

The early ones maybe Phil, but like forged banknotes they are becoming more sophisticated.... they don't call it "Black Gold" for nothing.

Some will have slipped through the net alright, you can't blame record buyers for being sceptical.

I can't vouch for others but first thing i think when flicking through boxes is... "is it a real un"

Edited April 9, 2014 by Labeat

[Chris L]

The Younghearts - Little Togetherness?

 

M

 

It is tough to tell the difference..............

[Chris L]

When these boots first surfaced our understanding of the entire record manufacturing process stateside was much more limited. I recently dug out my Alexander Patten pressing and compared it to genuine original 45s manufactured at Capitol's Scranton, Pennsylvania plant. It's identical in terms of typesetting and the absence of certain markings which we all once thought a genuine Capitol 45 'should' have. This is complex and worth opening a second topic for this 45 alone.

 

Bottom line is that Capitol manufactured 45s in at least three factories. Each pressing will have different layout and different manufacturing markings. When these Alex Patten copies first appeared it was different enough from the first US copies for people to scream 'Boot!' but now I'm actually unsure.

 

They are boots, story is Simon Soussan wandered into Capitol records and wandered out with a handful of blanks.

[Sheep]

Everybody seems to naming all look a likes here, so I shall do the same, International GTOS.not a look a like, b ut does get sold as an original is Toby Bullard.

[Pete S]

International GTO's boot is styrene though?

[Mick Boyle]

Apologies then Mick, I have never had the chance to compare them personally. I was quoting what other collectors have told me. Something about the dimples in the vinyl being very difficult to spot.

To be honest I think that any boot can be recognised as such if you have an original to compare. And these days with high res scans available to view on line it's not like back in the day.

Yep I have heard about the dimples but didn't know at the time.

I was offed £400 for the lookalike bootleg (back when that was the value of the real deal) by another dj whos name I wont mentioned.

I explained it wasn't an original and he said it was and wouldn't except it was a boot, he went on to say if its a boot I should be happy to take his money. I didn't as I knew better and he was a hell of a big fellow 

[Godzilla]

You forgot about the most important thing, the sound quality. Every boot I've ever played has been terrible.

 

I'll grant that there were some truly horrible sounding ones but I recall some of that Monarch pressed 70s stuff was really good quality - I'm thinking Billy Prophet, George Blackwell, Mickie Champion etc. Same with lots of the vinyl boots - James Barnett and Tamala Lewis off the top of my head.

 

I'd bet that loads of them would pas the blindfold test. Apart from the fact that many are trashed by repeated plays on crappy equipment of course.

[Garethx]

They are boots, story is Simon Soussan wandered into Capitol records and wandered out with a handful of blanks.

Printing the two colour blank Capitol labels would be absolutely the easiest part of the enterprise. I'm not doubting that there were probably such blanks laying unused in the Capitol Hollywood offices or pressing plant in the early 70s. Remember that Capitol had switched to a different 45 label some years earlier.

 

The bootleg is a facsimile of a Capitol Scranton pressed 45. Capitol sold that plant in 1973, having switched to the labels with European style friction grips by 1968, which were pressed at Jacksonville, Illinois and Winchester, Virginia.

 

The thing which makes this 45 so interesting is the typesetting. The copies of Alexander Patten we know as definite originals are the Capitol Hollywood pressings: 'daisy wheel' or 'asterisk' pressing mark and typesetting by the firm Bert & Co.

 

The Scranton-pressed titles used a completely different set of fonts and were typeset by a company called Keystone in Pennsylvania. These are the fonts used on the Alexander Patten 'boot' variant. It's a very definite tell and something a bootlegger would most likely never have gone to the trouble to replicate in the early 1970s. Why not just replicate the existing, known, Hollywood-pressed release with its Bert & Co. fonts? Why arouse suspicion by producing something which didn't look exactly the same but which looks so authentic? If it was Soussan he never again went to the same trouble with any major label release. Why not do an Earl Wright as well, something I've never seen on a Scranton-type 45?

 

The Alexander Patten doesn't use the International Union of Machinists stamp which Scranton pressings usually had, something I used to think was the end of the matter, but recently I got some (definitely original) Beach Boys Capitol 45s from 1966 which didn't have them either–that's what got me looking through the pressings box for AP.

 

I don't know the definitive answer to this, but I find it interesting that a bootlegger went to such trouble when a US Capitol original of this 45 was not a huge money item in the UK at the time.

Edited April 9, 2014 by garethx

[Simsy]

James Bounty.

[Chris L]

Printing the two colour blank Capitol labels would be absolutely the easiest part of the enterprise. I'm not doubting that there were probably such blanks laying unused in the Capitol Hollywood offices or pressing plant in the early 70s. Remember that Capitol had switched to a different 45 label some years earlier. The bootleg is a facsimile of a Capitol Scranton pressed 45. Capitol sold that plant in 1973, having switched to the labels with European style friction grips by 1968, which were pressed at Jacksonville, Illinois and Winchester, Virginia. The thing which makes this 45 so interesting is the typesetting. The copies of Alexander Patten we know as definite originals are the Capitol Hollywood pressings: 'daisy wheel' or 'asterisk' pressing mark and typesetting by the firm Bert & Co. The Scranton-pressed titles used a completely different set of fonts and were typeset by a company called Keystone in Pennsylvania. These are the fonts used on the Alexander Patten 'boot' variant. It's a very definite tell and something a bootlegger would most likely never have gone to the trouble to replicate in the early 1970s. Why not just replicate the existing, known, Hollywood-pressed release with its Bert & Co. fonts? Why arouse suspicion by producing something which didn't look exactly the same but which looks so authentic? If it was Soussan he never again went to the same trouble with any major label release. Why not do an Earl Wright as well, something I've never seen on a Scranton-type 45? The Alexander Patten doesn't use the International Union of Machinists stamp which Scranton pressings usually had, something I used to think was the end of the matter, but recently I got some (definitely original) Beach Boys Capitol 45s from 1966 which didn't have them either–that's what got me looking through the pressings box for AP. I don't know the definitive answer to this, but I find it interesting that a bootlegger went to such trouble when a US Capitol original of this 45 was not a huge money item in the UK at the time.

 

That story came from Arthur Wright, the arranger of Hurt on the other side (as well as a shedload of other stuff). In the 70s both Alex P & Jerry C were very in demand items so it doesn't surprise me.

[Garethx]

Jerry Cook exists on real Hollywood and Scranton pressings. Are some of the Scrantons boots? All of them? The real Scranton one has the 'triangle with IAM' stamp. The real Hollywood one has the daisy-wheel mark.

 

Looking at popsike I can see a couple of examples where a dodgy Jerry Cook has sold for more than it perhaps ought to, but similarly I can speculate that there might well be a couple of examples where the original has sold for peanuts and the respective buyers and sellers are going by the labels only.

Edited April 9, 2014 by garethx

[Russ Vickers]

Give over, that's easy if you have it in your hand. It's see through.

 

The answer is in post 22. This record has caused more arguments than any other, and the boot is still in some top collections. It isn't as easy to spot as it says in Manship's guide.

 

Double dimples ?

 

Russ

[Premium Stuff]

Johnny Sayles - My Loves A Monster  would be my guess.

 

This this right up there potentially - as it's definitely one of the best counterfeits and so one of the hardest to tell apart.

 

Plus, it's not a big ticket item - so that would mean people (i.e. a range of dealers) could sell a bootleg as an original and get away with it 

 

Cheers

 

Richard

[Labeat]

Jerry Cook exists on real Hollywood and Scranton pressings. Are some of the Scrantons boots? All of them? The real Scranton one has the 'triangle with IAM' stamp. The real Hollywood one has the daisy-wheel mark.

 

Looking at popsike I can see a couple of examples where a dodgy Jerry Cook has sold for more than it perhaps ought to, but similarly I can speculate that there might well be a couple of examples where the original has sold for peanuts and the respective buyers and sellers are going by the labels only.

 

Gareth, I nominate you to be our forensic detective, Mike should have you on the pay-roll with your valuable input

[Winsford Soul]

You forgot about the most important thing, the sound quality. Every boot I've ever played has been terrible.

Phil . I hope your not saying that you have played boots  Steve

[Quinvy]

Phil . I hope your not saying that you have played boots  Steve

 

I have bought a couple over the years thinking I could record them for home listening, but the quality was so poor I binned them.

[Winsford Soul]

I have bought a couple over the years thinking I could record them for home listening, but the quality was so poor I binned them.

Am with you on that Phil , done it with tunes that were totally out of my price range so I could listen to them on CD's in the car. Steve

[Dazdakin]

It has to be epitome of sound, the only difference between orig and boot is orig has three embossed numbers UNDER label and boot don't. Everything else is bang down to matrix

Dazz

[Billywhizz]

I prefer the flip side well worth £8 '76 i believe cheers billy

[Steve G]

Could be a case of the boot being rarer than the real'n.... who else other than Butch in UK plays it?

 

Eddie Daniels? Kitch has also played it in his sets...

[Chris L]

Moses Smith and Pages  

 

Always thought that the Moses Smith boot was a fable and they are all originals, anybody got any labels scans of both ? 

[Labeat]

Eddie Daniels? Kitch has also played it in his sets...

 

Kitch rarely DJ's, Andy D does have it now i come to think but rarely do you hear it other than Butch'

it's a top notch tune so maybe better it doesn't get too overplayed

[Quinvy]

Kitch rarely DJ's, Andy D does have it now i come to think but rarely do you hear it other than Butch'

it's a top notch tune so maybe better it doesn't get too overplayed

 

Neil, it's crap. That's why nobody plays it.