The Bootleg "everybody" Sells As An Original

[Premium Stuff]

Funny how stuff just comes into your head that you thought you had forgotten years ago.

 

I just remembered about talking to a once well-know record dealer, many years ago now - pre-internet days, and the days of those lovely paper lists 

 

We were talking about originals and bootlegs and I was (incorrectly by the way) questioning the authenticity of a record I had received. I thought it was a bootleg based on a write up in one of the top soul fanzines at the time. Anyway, I now know the record was a real one.

 

So this dealer said to me "There's only one bootleg I sell as an original - and I'm not going to tell you what it is because everyone sells it as an original" 

 

Anyway, this guy is no longer in the business of selling records and is not on the scene - so I see no point in naming them.

 

I just wondered if anyone knew what the said record might have been please - the bootleg everyone sells as an original - not the one I sent back

 

I never worked it out. Might be a fun thread guessing though huh!? 

 

Cheers

 

Richard

Edited April 5, 2014 by Premium Stuff

[pikeys dog]

Johnny Sayles - My Loves A Monster  would be my guess.

[Mal C]

The Younghearts - Little Togetherness?

 

is it an obvious 'Classic' title, or something more obscure?

 

M

[Guest DAWEEDSMOKA]

San Francisco T.K.O.'s   ?

[Premium Stuff]

Remember folks - I don't know the answer to the question, so worth posting why you think your suggestion might be the bootleg "everyone" sells as an original.

[boba]

i don't want to name names but i've recently gotten paranoid of a certain dealer that people already talk about on here... looking at the labels of a bunch of stuff, it all looks like it was pressed in LA, whether it's a philly record or an LA record.

 

for example i recently noticed that the soul gents on fros-ray has two label variations, one with the writers names spelled wrong and the color tone of the label being different. and the more common darker pink variation (which I have seen in old collections and beat up) has labels that looks exactly like certain other philly records sold by the same person... wtf.

 

anyways it should be pretty obvious who i'm talking about at this point anyways. but i'm totally paranoid at this point as to what's real and what's not, and if certain labels were totally made up, i even asked some philly experts who told me that they weren't but i'm still skeptical. i guess if they're that old and a bootleg it doesn't matter if there's an established value now. kind of like the debate on here about the frederick hymes iii -- whether there is some older original or they're all newer pressings it doesn't matter, as whatever it is has value now.

[NEV]

Anything that guy from Vegas puts out!

[Labeat]

If you can counterfeit money you can counterfeit anything, with up to date technology are we saying it's "impossible" to clone 45's?

Quite a few records on the scene are very basic and cheaply constructed, there could be a "find" of 50 or so 60's style new discoveries

passed off as original.... we then take it for granted that thats what they are!

[boba]

it's not like vinyl cutting technology has advanced, there are way fewer plants and it's harder to duplicate the exact vinyl / pressing and you have to be pretty sophisticated to exactly get the paper, etc.

 

i'm more concerned about counterfeits that have already happened in like the '80s and at this point have become "originals".

[Liamgp]

If you can counterfeit money you can counterfeit anything, with up to date technology are we saying it's "impossible" to clone 45's?

Quite a few records on the scene are very basic and cheaply constructed, there could be a "find" of 50 or so 60's style new discoveries

passed off as original.... we then take it for granted that thats what they are!

 

I would imagine it's easier to pass off counterfeits of more sophisticated 45s with expensive paper labels. good quality vinyl etc than some crappy styrene disc with a roughly printed label. 

[Labeat]

I would imagine it's easier to pass off counterfeits of more sophisticated 45s with expensive paper labels. good quality vinyl etc than some crappy styrene disc with a roughly printed label. 

 

All we can do is guess at theories!

[Labeat]

it's not like vinyl cutting technology has advanced, there are way fewer plants and it's harder to duplicate the exact vinyl / pressing and you have to be pretty sophisticated to exactly get the paper, etc.

 

i'm more concerned about counterfeits that have already happened in like the '80s and at this point have become "originals".

 

I wonder if theres some Yankee feller back in the States just reading this chuckling to himself

[MotownDave]

Anderson Brothers ?

[Rich B]

Anderson Brothers ?

 

Those with 'PB' in the runout can be hard to spot - there were titles than many realise from that source Fabulous Jades "Come on and Live" being one that seems to be overlooked.

[Mal C]

i don't want to name names but i've recently gotten paranoid of a certain dealer that people already talk about on here... looking at the labels of a bunch of stuff, it all looks like it was pressed in LA, whether it's a philly record or an LA record.

for example i recently noticed that the soul gents on fros-ray has two label variations, one with the writers names spelled wrong and the color tone of the label being differentt have booted . and the more common darker pink variation (which I have seen in old collections and beat up) has labels that looks exactly like certain other philly records sold by the same person... wtf.

-----------

We discussed the Soul Gents some months ago, and it was established that the flesh pink, if u want to call them that are deffo original, that's not to say somebody might have booted that? I've no knowledge that's the case...

Personally always thought there are more light pink copies around than dark ones, but the light pink seem to go for double the dark ones...,

Malcolm

Edited April 6, 2014 by Mal C

[Mal C]

Isn't Roscoe Robinson on Gerri a good candidate for this 'unknown' track? That and some of the Tuff stuff?

Would this dealers first name be Richard by any chance?

M

Edited April 6, 2014 by Mal C

[Labeat]

Same old scenario.... a case of "supply&demand", while ever there are dj's out there playing boots to an unsuspecting audience

there will be pirates encouraged to knock them out (tunes), like it or lump it or if things wont change they'l stay as they are!

[Bob]

Wombat - I,m Gettin On Life, would be my guess

[Prophonics 2029]

After hearing some of this, I do find records thay by accident I have 2 or more copies and the variations on labels is quiet striking....name at the top..or bottom... Credits in a different place or larger print?. Roulette, 20th Century, Decks, Brunswick.

Edited April 6, 2014 by Prophonics 2029

[Chalky]

If you can counterfeit money you can counterfeit anything, with up to date technology are we saying it's "impossible" to clone 45's?

Quite a few records on the scene are very basic and cheaply constructed, there could be a "find" of 50 or so 60's style new discoveries

passed off as original.... we then take it for granted that thats what they are!

 

 

You would struggle to reproduce vinyl, paper and especially the ink to the specs of the 60's original.  Most techniques and materials have changed since then, particularly with paper and ink.  The return couldn't be justified given the time, effort and expense you would have to put in.  Not saying it couldn't be done, just highly unlikely.  They would quickly be spotted as well, not a lot get's past collectors and dealers, not for long anyhow.

Edited April 6, 2014 by chalky

[Chatty]

 There are works of art dating back centuries "done" in the last 50 years and "experts" are still arguing over their authenticity.

Edited April 6, 2014 by chatty

[Quinvy]

Salvadors. 

[Soul Shrews]

Jerry Cook ?

 

Cheers Paul

[TOAD]

Jerry cook is easy to spot although it is on original labels

[Benji]

Isn't Roscoe Robinson on Gerri a good candidate for this 'unknown' track? That and some of the Tuff stuff?

Would this dealers first name be Richard by any chance?

M

 

Which Roscoe Robinson? There are two releases on Gerri. And both look pretty legit to me.

[Benji]

Jerry cook is easy to spot although it is on original labels

 

Yeah, easy to spot if you know what to look out for. But if you don't then it's pretty easy to assume it's an original. Mind, Richard was talking about pre-internet days, i.e. no bootleg guide around. I guess most boots of Jerry Cook (or Alexander Patton) on Capitol were sold as originals.

 

Another one I don't recall back then on lists as a bootleg is Joe Douglas on Playhouse.

[Mal C]

Which Roscoe Robinson? There are two releases on Gerri. And both look pretty legit to me.

'Thats Enough'  I was told most are boots, ages ago now, but its stuck in the memory...  I have no evidence to prove that of course, and given it's a Chicago track, I kinda feel its unlikely, but there you go, its a suggestion...

 

I think the thing with this is the 'Track' Richard is alluding to, is a very much accepted original... but then he does not know the answer to the question does he???

 

Richard what are you on about mate???? laughs

 

Malcolm

[Iancsloft]

Trends Thanks for a little loving on white demo

[Gointoagogo]

I know there have been lots of threads on Rufus Wonder Under The Moon but I've never bought the theory that the Lendo lable is a typo given that there is an issue & demo on Lando  - so is this the pressing sold as an original?

[pikeys dog]

Couple more possibles...

 

 

Yum Yums  ABC demo.

 

and

 

Ray Agee - I'm Losing Again - pink Soultown

[Louise]

Gwen & Ray "Build Your House On A Strong Foundation" Bee Bee ?

Dave

[Guest]

Mel Williams & Freddie Chavez

[boba]

Isn't Roscoe Robinson on Gerri a good candidate for this 'unknown' track? That and some of the Tuff stuff?

Would this dealers first name be Richard by any chance?

M

 

no way on the roscoe robinson, I've seen copies a very long time ago and all copies have turned up trashed from totally different sources, some of whom I've known personally and have found it in the field.

 

i don't think any vinyl person is sitting there chuckling to themselves with their sophisticated 21st century technology. there's actually no way to even get new cutting heads for the lathes as nobody makes them anymore, so the existing ones are just getting duller.

[boba]

sorry, just read the above comments about roscoe robinson. "that's enough" was a big hit in chicago, i have never seen a boot and the promo is very rare but original. i assumed you were talking about "ask the lonely". and i'm pretty sure there's 5 different roscoe robinson 45s on gerri.

[pikeys dog]

Got Roscoe Robinson on both Promo and Issue on Gerri, and neither of them are anything close to a boot.

[pogo paul]

Gwen & Ray "Build Your House On A Strong Foundation" Bee Bee ?

Dave

I was sold this as original in the 80s , it's not , from dealer think you are talking about.

[Mick Boyle]

Johnny and the weirdest

[pikeys dog]

Another candidate is Miki Farrow on Karate.

[Premium Stuff]

Another candidate is Miki Farrow on Karate.

That was my guess at the time. However, when you get to know the original and boot they just can't be confused. It's not about the label as a lot of people seem to think. Also differences maybe not be that well known because the original is a rare one possibly?

Cheers

Richard

Edited April 6, 2014 by Premium Stuff

[Mark S]

Love you baby - Eddie Parker

[Quinvy]

Johnny and the weirdest

 

Give over, that's easy if you have it in your hand. It's see through.

 

The answer is in post 22. This record has caused more arguments than any other, and the boot is still in some top collections. It isn't as easy to spot as it says in Manship's guide.

[Mark B]

How about George Blackwell 

[Frankie Crocker]

Love you baby - Eddie Parker

My nomination too. The lookalike appearance plays right into the hands of unscrupulous dealers and ignorant junkers. Mind you, a second rate dealer from Leeds very kindly sold me a Sam and Kitty on Four Brothers, Malibus on Sure Shot plus Eddie Reagan on ABC pre Manship Bootleg Guide days so any of these could qualify; needless to say, his phone number is no longer on speed-dial and he has lost my business.

[Labeat]

Let us not forget, Pirates are always looking to be one step ahead.

Some interesting "Theories" on here.

"Second rate dealer" from Leeds?.... Mmmmm! you've got me thinking there

[Dave Rimmer]

One that I always wondered about was The Gambrells - Jive Talk - on Pioneer.

 

I seem to remember there was quite a lot of discussion within the West Midlands collectors about the legitimacy of the release when it went big for a while.

[Bazza]

The earliest boot I remember buying was J J Jackson - but its alright ,I didn't know any different back then, don't suppose its that tho

 

Bazza  

[Stockholmsoulfox]

Give over, that's easy if you have it in your hand. It's see through.

 

The answer is in post 22. This record has caused more arguments than any other, and the boot is still in some top collections. It isn't as easy to spot as it says in Manship's guide.

 

I had one of Soussan's early vinyl boots of the Salvadors that looked real enough, the label colour seemed spot on..

 

I sold it (declared as a suspected boot) at  the Hinckley  nighter in the late 80's for about £15.

 

Wish I'd kept it now but I certainly wouldn't have played it as OV...

[Mick Boyle]

Give over, that's easy if you have it in your hand. It's see through.

 

The answer is in post 22. This record has caused more arguments than any other, and the boot is still in some top collections. It isn't as easy to spot as it says in Manship's guide.

J and the Ws   -   Was good enough to fool one of the country's no make that worlds top dealers who reputedly pay £1900 - Yes hold it to light we all know that now

Salvador  -   I held Richard Bs original next to the look alike and the colour was close but not close enough and the PB is a big give-away 

So Im surprised that it is the Salvador but not doubting it  

[Steve Edgar]

Hesitations  "I'm Not Built That Way" ?

[Steviehay]

Epitome of sound or the anderson bros I have bought both,chapman,manship,colin bee could not define at the time if epitome was a boot or an original it was a boot 20 odd years later the anderson bros is a very very good sell as original though keep it soulful steve