Is Covering Up A Soul Dj Kind Of Thing?

[Mace]

If you had your way would you re-issue everything?

Not the ones in his own collection ....

;o)

Edited April 12, 2014 by Mace

[Back Street Blue]

Somewhat indirectly. 

 

So presumably you get the requisite permissions from the appropriate sources?

 

In that case, what do you do to ensure that the artists or their heirs get their dues?

[Mace]

Is that because Mace got involved and used logic. I've just scared myself saying Mace used logic.

Steve

It wasn't logic, it's a new app I downloaded called 'FinalWord'

You copy and past the debate into the program and it gives you the best reply to post.

Pisses all over Shazam!

[Mark S]

 

So presumably you get the requisite permissions from the appropriate sources?

 

In that case, what do you do to ensure that the artists or their heirs get their dues?

 

He writes the artists real name on the label ..................................................in crayon .

[Mr Outsider]

So presumably you get the requisite permissions from the appropriate sources?

 

In that case, what do you do to ensure that the artists or their heirs get their dues?

 

Depends, every case is different. Sometimes the artist or their estate get paid, sometimes they don't. I would always like for that to be the case and try quite hard to see that it does, where I can. The reality is that in most cases, these artists have no legal ownership over their music. That doesn't stop me thinking they deserve something though. 

[Guest Bearsy]

Depends, every case is different. Sometimes the artist or their estate get paid, sometimes they don't. I would always like for that to be the case and try quite hard to see that it does, where I can. The reality is that in most cases, these artists have no legal ownership over their music. That doesn't stop me thinking they deserve something though. 

What's your company called that re-issue tunes ? Do you do vinyl ? CDs ? Anything else or just soul music ?

[Quinvy]

Please close this thread or kill me now. Mr outsider is a windup merchant.     

[Mr Outsider]

What's your company called that re-issue tunes ? Do you do vinyl ? CDs ? Anything else or just soul music ?

It's not my company, I work for Jazzman. Is this 20 questions? How many do I have left? 

[Back Street Blue]

Depends, every case is different. Sometimes the artist or their estate get paid, sometimes they don't. I would always like for that to be the case and try quite hard to see that it does, where I can. The reality is that in most cases, these artists have no legal ownership over their music. That doesn't stop me thinking they deserve something though. 

 

So "sometimes" the artist gets paid........but "the reality is that in most cases these artists have no legal ownership over their music".

 

That suggests that the artists seldom get paid even though you "try quite hard" to see that they do.

 

So in essence, your view that the cover up denies the artist the ability to get paid is a mute point.

 

The real loser then is the record company, in which case viva la cover up.

[KevH]

Please close this thread or kill me now. Mr outsider is a windup merchant.     

 

 

No can do Phil - you're in the matrix now.!!!

[Mr Outsider]

Mixing up the issues somewhat. I wasn't making the argument that cover-ups deny royalties, just that they deny appropriate credit. I don't think reissues have much relevance to the conversation but somehow it's ended up there. Not going to spend much energy on that topic, that one really never will end. 

[Back Street Blue]

Mixing up the issues somewhat. I wasn't making the argument that cover-ups deny royalties, just that they deny appropriate credit. I don't think reissues have much relevance to the conversation but somehow it's ended up there. Not going to spend much energy on that topic, that one really never will end. 

 

....oh......OK then.

[Pete S]

I'm not for or against, but I have one point to make.  How many cover ups from the old days are still covered up?  None?  They all get discovered in the end so the lifespan of a cover up is usually months rather than years.  I'm sure that cover ups that Butch plays will mainly be records that have no artist credit.  Look how long it took to find out who Richard's "When he's not around" turned out to be - that was a blank disc and was only discovered by a fluke.  So all I'm saying is, records that have been released and covered up will always have their identities revealed, blank label discs won't.

[Mike]

post removed

 

if you are going to post videos and label them as if they are boots

 

can you please ensure that you use an actual bootleg please

 

thanks

[Mike]

a ott post has been removed along with its follow on replies as per the site terms of use

[NEV]

If you had your way would you re-issue everything?

I'm struggling to understand why anyone wishing to make a living out of the music industry by investing in the rare or northern soul world?

It's not popular by definition of the word, the market is very small and limited and costs to produce limited amounts aren't cheap, but what do I know.. I'm a thick brickie!

[Guest Bearsy]

Mr Outsider I'm Sorry about an earlier post it probably worded and came accross wrong so accept Mike rightfully deleted. 

[Chalky]

Mixing up the issues somewhat. I wasn't making the argument that cover-ups deny royalties, just that they deny appropriate credit. I don't think reissues have much relevance to the conversation but somehow it's ended up there. Not going to spend much energy on that topic, that one really never will end. 

 

I would think just about every artist connected with this scene has received the credit that is due.  I would imagine those records that are covered up they are so obscure that credit would probably never get to the artist concerned today.

 

 

As for royalties, I doubt many artists bank balance is going to suffer because of a record covered up and I doubt unless the artist wrote and owns the masters then he will get nothing from any sale of a reissue.

 

If some are so concerned about artists and their royalties then they should maybe get stuck into ebay and do something about the bootleggers who blatantly advertise their illegal wares.

Edited April 12, 2014 by chalky

[boba]

Mike Noriega messaged me to say that he pressed the Terrence Bacon and the Hotcakes 45 and although that it is not the artist name, he licensed the record legitimately.

[Back Street Blue]

 

As for royalties, I doubt many artists bank balance is going to suffer because of a record covered up and I doubt unless the artist wrote and owns the masters then he will get nothing from any sale of a reissue.

 

If some are so concerned about artists and their royalties then they should maybe get stuck into ebay and do something about the bootleggers who blatantly advertise their illegal wares.

 

Surely the artist would be in the same predicament as regards the impact of bootlegs of an obscure recording that didn't reach it's market when it was released?

 

If so then taking the bootleggers on would be unlikely to benefit the artist......or am I missing something?

[Chalky]

Surely the artist would be in the same predicament as regards the impact of bootlegs of an obscure recording that didn't reach it's market when it was released?

 

If so then taking the bootleggers on would be unlikely to benefit the artist......or am I missing something?

 

 

I not sure why bootlegs ever came into this topic as it is a totally different issue.  Royalties go to whoever owns the rights and to the composer.....so if a record is booted someone is missing out.

[Back Street Blue]

I not sure why bootlegs ever came into this topic as it is a totally different issue.  Royalties go to whoever owns the rights and to the composer.....so if a record is booted someone is missing out.

 

Agreed.........on all points

[Labeat]

Mike Noriega messaged me to say that he pressed the Terrence Bacon and the Hotcakes 45 and although that it is not the artist name, he licensed the record legitimately.

 

Hey, iv'e had lunch at the Noriega house in California... lovely family. Regarding the Terrance Bacon track, does the actual tune (played on a deck)

sound the same as on you-tube, it sounds rather hollow!

P.S, still a brilliant track though

Edited April 12, 2014 by Labeat

[Labeat]

It's not my company, I work for Jazzman. Is this 20 questions? How many do I have left? 

 

You've walked into the Bear pit so many times now, will you come on again sometime?.... it's all good fun my friend

[Guest aintgotit]

What a load of pretentious crap. The records are covered up to allow the Dj to build a following for the record and to create a buzz so that people will turn up to hear records that they can't hear anywhere else. The whole scene was built on rare records. It would have lasted about two years if all the records had been readily available. These records were made by people hoping to make it big, they failed and that is that. A few Dollars thirty or forty years later would hardly change the lives of the artists would it? 

With respect Phil I have to disagree with you, just because a record is covered up doesn't make it desirable to everyone, and even then, the records scarcity makes a difference to how many would then go looking for it to actually buy, most who could be bothered would probably search for a clip online , and if motivated might have a bootleg knocked up . eventually someone might look for publishing rights and see about re-issuing it. Then surely some roayalties might be due to the owne of the contract or whatever. I dunno , im no expert , as you can see, but isn't that the point of releasing a record , to have it heard by as wide a potential buying audience as possible.Apart from the researching that goes on finding connections between artists their labels , producers and their musical discography, doesn't a desire to play a tune come with a responsibility to share the knowledge of its creator. I mean isn't that why you buy a record if your a dj. Why is the kudos of being one of a select few in the know supercede  informing the people who show their enjoyment  of it by dancing and want to know more. seems a bit ,well pretentious in itself. Just saying.

[Ian Dewhirst]

Mike Noriega messaged me to say that he pressed the Terrence Bacon and the Hotcakes 45 and although that it is not the artist name, he licensed the record legitimately.

 

Out of curiosity, what is the point of that Bob? Why would you go to all the trouble of re-issuing something and then not credit the correct artist?

 

Ian D

[Labeat]

Out of curiosity, what is the point of that Bob? Why would you go to all the trouble of re-issuing something and then not credit the correct artist?

 

Ian D

 

Ian, maybe because no-one knows the actual artist/group.... been lots like that over the years as you know.... guesswork!

[Ian Dewhirst]

Ian, maybe because no-one knows the actual artist/group.... been lots like that over the years as you know.... guesswork!

 

But I thought Bob said that it had been licensed legitimately? In which case you'd have to know who you were dealing with and have the correct title and artist on the contract surely?

 

Ian D

[Greg Belson]

It wasn't logic, it's a new app I downloaded called 'FinalWord'

 

 

Mate, you just brought a mahoosive smile to my face.....for that, I thank you 

[boba]

it's not a reissue, it's a first issue from tape. i have no other explanation as to the reason for the cover-up name other than what was told to me (he said the artist didn't want his name revealed). i only posted a follow-up here because someone besides mike facebook messaged me and said i should correct my post, so i posted a follow-up given what i was told.

Edited April 12, 2014 by boba

[macca]

The ghost of Dave Godin has now left the room... Chuntering about coverups...

[Dave Rimmer]

The book example, which someone else made, it's an interesting one to pursue. 

Let's say I was a poetry enthusiast and regularly attended poetry recital groups. Rummaging around in my local 2nd hand book store, I uncovered a book of poetry which I didn't think my fellow group members would be aware of. Feverishly excited with my new 'discovery' I vow to myself to keep the title of the book and the identity of the author secret for as long as possible, whilst regularly reciting verses from this impressive yet obscure publication to appreciative audiences. I might even tell the group members that I wasn't going to reveal the details of my remarkable find, lest they all go and find a copy of the book with which they could potentially use to recite the verses themselves. After all, why should they benefit from my 'discovery' and share the adulation and praise that I deserve for having found the book in my local 2nd hand book store? And as for the original writer, who cares? Me reading out his poetry to a group of true poetry lovers, whilst refusing to tell people his name, that's probably the best thing that's ever happened to him, even though he doesn't actually know it's happening and maybe never will so long as I can keep his identity a secret. In any case, it's early 40 years old. He's probably dead or else working in a pig farm somewhere in Norfolk or whatever. And after 40 years, all those pretentious ideas of authorship and rights and all that go out the window, they turn to dust, everyone knows that. I found the poetry book, so by rights, I pretty much own the poetry now, and I intend to use it to make poetry fans everywhere love me and pay me money to recite it. 

 

A quite well made argument. However, if the other members of your poetry group were so enamoured by the poetry you were reciting that they also had to have a copy of the book, that they eventually found out who the author was, and created a huge demand for the book, it may well be that the publisher, realising there was a demand might just reprint it, so the author would get some dosh as a direct result of your poetry readings !

[Guest eulalie]

A quite well made argument. However, if the other members of your poetry group were so enamoured by the poetry you were reciting that they also had to have a copy of the book, that they eventually found out who the author was, and created a huge demand for the book, it may well be that the publisher, realising there was a demand might just reprint it, so the author would get some dosh as a direct result of your poetry readings !

 

Yes, but the group members could also be equally enamoured by the poetry you read without keeping the author's identity secret in the first instance and also create a huge demand leading to republishing.  Hype isn't necessarily dependent on concealing the identity of the original creator.  It could be just down to the fact it is considered a great book of poems on its own terms.

Edited April 14, 2014 by eulalie

[jocko]

Yes, but the group members could also be equally enamoured by the poetry you read without keeping the author's identity secret in the first instance and also create a huge demand leading to republishing.  Hype isn't necessarily dependent on concealing the identity of the original creator.  It could be just down to the fact it is considered a great book of poems on its own terms.

 

We are getting silly now.

 

its a DJ tool, a great one, in my opinion, that adds to the Northern scene, doesn't detract, and while DJ Tool maybe an apt moniker for some of the DJ's today, the attack on DJ's that seems be to Gerards assistants only motive and only reason against them is just daft. And the fact that people seem to think its so wrong for dj's to have ego's seems bonkers to me, the other argument is surely you would need some sort of ego to put yourself through the torture a DJ has to go through on today's scene especially. Ego, under control, isn't always bad, and despite what the OP says, no DJ covers something up to give himself credit for the actual record, or even to replace the artist, its a tool used to make him more marketable and worth travellling to see, something I suspect lots of people on todays scene don't do!  

 

As other people say, cover ups arent for ever, they work to the benefit of the scene, with little lasting harm to the artist in the majority, if not all cases, , so lets move on now. The ironic thing is in general there are very few on a nationwide basis now, due to knowledge internet etc. I love the little local ones with a DJ trying to be clever, its fun, and it adds to the sort of scene I used to be on.

 

Now we all agree with me, can this be closed now Mike.

 

Thanks

 

PS if we want to open a poetry one, I would love to discuss unkown and unread poems, particulary African American ones from 1964 onwards. Freebasing poetry anyone? (sure Jack Kerouac probably did that before us, but we can pretend we invented it!).

[Guest eulalie]

We are getting silly now.

 

its a DJ tool, a great one, in my opinion, that adds to the Northern scene, doesn't detract, and while DJ Tool maybe an apt moniker for some of the DJ's today, the attack on DJ's that seems be to Gerards assistants only motive and only reason against them is just daft. And the fact that people seem to think its so wrong for dj's to have ego's seems bonkers to me, the other argument is surely you would need some sort of ego to put yourself through the torture a DJ has to go through on today's scene especially. Ego, under control, isn't always bad, and despite what the OP says, no DJ covers something up to give himself credit for the actual record, or even to replace the artist, its a tool used to make him more marketable and worth travellling to see, something I suspect lots of people on todays scene don't do!  

 

As other people say, cover ups arent for ever, they work to the benefit of the scene, with little lasting harm to the artist in the majority, if not all cases, , so lets move on now. The ironic thing is in general there are very few on a nationwide basis now, due to knowledge internet etc. I love the little local ones with a DJ trying to be clever, its fun, and it adds to the sort of scene I used to be on.

 

Now we all agree with me, can this be closed now Mike.

 

Thanks

 

PS if we want to open a poetry one, I would love to discuss unkown and unread poems, particulary African American ones from 1964 onwards. Freebasing poetry anyone? (sure Jack Kerouac probably did that before us, but we can pretend we invented it!).

 

 

Just to be clear I'm not "Gerard's assistant." I'm just voicing my own independent opinion on a topic that I had some interest in as a music fan.

Edited April 14, 2014 by eulalie

[jocko]

Just to be clear I'm not "Gerrad's assistant." I'm just voicing my own independent opinion on a topic that I had some interest in as a music fan.

 

Sorry mate, I wasn't meaning you with the Gerards quote, my attempted humour at not knowing Mr Outsiders true identity! Just trying to be humourous and failing as always on the interweb!

[Guest Polyvelts]

I'm kind of against cover ups because I honestly think it's disrespectful to the person that created the piece of music in the first place, someone with real talent that made something wonderful out of nothing ...... but at the same time I also see it as a brilliant part of Northern Soul eccentricity and agree with Pete Smith that the lives of most c/ups are short lived, thats the very nature of them, and it's fairly harmless and make things a bit more interesting. I feel a bit 50 - 50 on this - but on the whole its all pretty harmless fun !!

 

PS

 

Isnt Eulalie a Spode cover up ???  

[Guest eulalie]

PS

 

Isnt Eulalie a Spode cover up ???  

 

Yes!  I give P.G Wodehouse full credit though 

[Guest aintgotit]

I think you're tripping out now mate! Dont be so dramatic, how is playing a record in a club with confidence or at least hope that others will love it and dance to it, a 'fuckkoff' to the artist!? That's insane. You dont announce the records anyway, you play em, people hopefully dance and no one gives a f*ck who the artist is except other djs. Where do I start the process of accreditation?

all through this thread you're substituting 'not doing something good' for ' doing something bad', as if by covering a record up, you're depriving the artist of something. Like if you dont give money to this childrens' charity you're stopping a child from going to disneyland. You still havent explained whether not djing at all is more acceptable than djing with cover-ups!

You're obsessed with djs egos, but every good dj i know is an average working man or woman. i djed years, got nothing out of it except the experience of djing, didnt want anything more than that, dudnt even really want that!

all thus preaching humility and morality and raging against the arrogance of scene djs, but the person who's milking it all the most...well, it's you!

give it a go , our kid, don't cover it up .the humility and the openness, you wont die of boredom, but we,ll all die sometime. if someone asks tell em , if you don't know, say so . I think its a more fulfilling life led if you feel like an idiot more than you look like one.

[Labeat]

Would i be right in thinking that those who oppose cover-ups don't actually venture out and support ANY venues?

Do they not give to the scene.... is it just "take take take"?

Personally iv'e been on the Northern scene from the beginning, iv'e never made a penny from it, don't wish to

(apart from selling the odd record). The scene needs YOUR support!!! Can you imagine.... virtually non existent and just Soul Source to reminisce

[Guest eulalie]

Would i be right in thinking that those who oppose cover-ups don't actually venture out and support ANY venues?

Do they not give to the scene.... is it just "take take take"?

Personally iv'e been on the Northern scene from the beginning, iv'e never made a penny from it, don't wish to

(apart from selling the odd record). The scene needs YOUR support!!! Can you imagine.... virtually non existent and just Soul Source to reminisce

 

No. I can't speak for everyone, only for myself, but I do venture out and support venues.  I 'give' in terms of paying my entrance fee and expressing my thanks to the DJs and promoters.  I personally think I get more than my money's worth back in enjoyment, discovering new tunes/artists, creating memories and friendships so it's entirely possible I take away more than I give, depending on how you value these things.

I've not been on the scene from the 'beginning' as I wasn't born when it began. I've never made a penny from it either, not even sold a record, and have no desire to do so also.

Edited April 16, 2014 by eulalie

[Labeat]

No. I can't speak for everyone, only for myself, but I do venture out and support venues.  I 'give' in terms of paying my entrance fee and expressing my thanks to the DJs and promoters.  I personally think I get more than my money's worth back in enjoyment, discovering new tunes/artists, creating memories and friendships so it's entirely possible I take away more than I give, depending on how you value these things.

I've not been on the scene from the 'beginning' as I wasn't born when it began. I've never made a penny from it either, not even sold a record, and have no desire to do so also.

 

Eulalie, "Those" is not directed personally to you, i am just generalizing, the fact that you pay your admission fee and thank DJ's & promoters mean

a lot to the scenes current stature.... well done in other words, and there are lot's just like yourself.

[Guest Soulsurfer]

The book example, which someone else made, it's an interesting one to pursue. 

Let's say I was a poetry enthusiast and regularly attended poetry recital groups. Rummaging around in my local 2nd hand book store, I uncovered a book of poetry which I didn't think my fellow group members would be aware of. Feverishly excited with my new 'discovery' I vow to myself to keep the title of the book and the identity of the author secret for as long as possible, whilst regularly reciting verses from this impressive yet obscure publication to appreciative audiences. I might even tell the group members that I wasn't going to reveal the details of my remarkable find, lest they all go and find a copy of the book with which they could potentially use to recite the verses themselves. After all, why should they benefit from my 'discovery' and share the adulation and praise that I deserve for having found the book in my local 2nd hand book store? And as for the original writer, who cares? Me reading out his poetry to a group of true poetry lovers, whilst refusing to tell people his name, that's probably the best thing that's ever happened to him, even though he doesn't actually know it's happening and maybe never will so long as I can keep his identity a secret. In any case, it's early 40 years old. He's probably dead or else working in a pig farm somewhere in Norfolk or whatever. And after 40 years, all those pretentious ideas of authorship and rights and all that go out the window, they turn to dust, everyone knows that. I found the poetry book, so by rights, I pretty much own the poetry now, and I intend to use it to make poetry fans everywhere love me and pay me money to recite it. 

Lets not.

[Guest Juniorsoul]

My brother got a record in a soul pack that wasn't on youtube or Manship's guide. We joked about covering it up. Not saying what it is, that'd be telling!  

[Raremusicdirect]

It's really simple, so simple it shouldn't bear repeating but apparently it's still necessary. I think doing cover ups is basically juvenile ego driven cock waving and that it's also somewhat disrespectful to the author. You think it's the best way to honour an artist somehow, or at least that or whatever or that it's all too trivial or something. I'm never going to change my mind on that and in spite of what you say, that's got nothing whatsoever to do with my own ego or desire to conquer the world via reissues.

In fact, sod it, all this music I'm 'milking' more than anyone in the world, most of this wasn't discovered by the mod scene or soul scene, and they don't own it either way. Some of it was played on the popcorn scene before then, or the rockin scene, or the Pittsburgh scene, all of which have a culture of reissues, boots and cover-ups going back for years. Some of it even appears to have been 'uncovered' by me and my mates, if you'd believe that. It's old music, none of us invented it ourselves.

 

Disagree with the highlighted, purely because I don't think I have a juvenile ego :-)   Maybe I do lol    C*ck waving ? Yes maybe there is an element of this in that djs want exclusives, well imho the best ones do  because it splits them from the herd.............so long as they are good records of course and they can actually dj :-)

 

I cover up 45s to add some fun to the set, to continue what I feel is part of the Northern Soul dj culture and tradition, to chase and track records that are danceable exclusives (even if short lived). Some will be rare, some not, and hence the cover up to saviour a few plays before that exclusivity is lost.   That won't change any time soon

 

There is no disrespect to the Artists intended in anyway and the cover up doesn't usually last long regardless; those that want to often unearth them after a relatively short time.  Resources are powerful these days.

[dean jj]

At one point Mr. Searling created a label for his cover ups....'Chase That Records'. Makes me smile even now.