'i've Got To Get Myself Together' Who Was First ?

[Tlscapital]

While watching the live video of Spyder Turner at Prestatyn, the old question came back to me so bad I had to post it up here; I always assumed that Kenny Carter was first releasing this in may 1966.

 

While the credits on Kenny Carter's RCA release are totally different than on the Spider Turner's Good Time release (where it even credits Kenny Carter as co-writer) to give no clue what so ever on the who's-who's, it suggests that a copyright issue is in the can. For some non factual reasons, I always thought that Kenny Carter's record was prior.

 

But that would be totally the other way around according to Spyder Turner if what he said introducing this song on stage is true; Spyder says he was ABOUT 17 years old when he recorded the song in 1964 (that could match with his birthday in february 1947). Then he would have recorded 'get myself together' in 1964 (it doesn't sound that early IMHO) as a prize after winning the talent contest at the Apollo. His 'ABOUT' 17 years old tells us that his memory is not so accurate and it could maybe be some time after.

 

Still, it could be 1965 or somewhere like that. The date would then be the issue about who was first to record it. It would then put Spider Turner's version first. But then what is the connection/story with the Kenny Carter on the credit ? And then what about Kenny Carter not crediting himself on his version ? Anybody with more insight around and about this ?

 

[Chalky]

Kenny Carter is 1965, the "s" at the beginning of the matrix defines this.

 

S(1965 )P(either promo or pop?) K(45) M(mono)

Edited March 16, 2014 by chalky

[Tlscapital]

Kenny Carter is 1965, the "s" at the beginning of the matrix defines this.

 

S(1965 )P(either promo or pop?) K(45) M(mono)

All USA RCA discographies I've seen give Kenny Carter 'get myself together' RCA 47-8841 in the middle of their 1966 production and match one time as may 1966 (middle 1966) !

[Chalky]

All USA RCA discographies I've seen give Kenny Carter 'get myself together' RCA 47-8841 in the middle of their 1966 production and match one time as may 1966 (middle 1966) !

 

I'm going by the matrix on the left hand side on the scan you posted underneath the RCA 47-8841?  

 

His unissued one on RCA What's That On Your Finger according to the cd notes was early 1966.

[Chalky]

The matrix I'm referring to though is for mastering not the time of release.

[Dave Pinch]

may 1966 sounds about right with kenny carter and that rca catalogue number....spider signed with mgm  a couple of months later

[Dave Pinch]

whats the value on these two today.......spider hardly ever shows up

[Chalky]

From another forum page I was reading....

 

In 1963 another set of codes was introduced.

 

1st character (year recorded)

 

P: 1963/R: 1964/S: 1965/T: 1966/U: 1967/W: 1968/X: 1969/Z: 1970

(I have the other codes up to 1991 but I can’t be bothered to type those in

tonight. E-me if you need them.)

 

2nd character (label designation)

A: Grunt/B: TMI/C: Camden/D: Neon/E: Educational/F: Wooden Nickel/G: Groove/H:

Hugo & Luigi (1963-64), Chelsea (1972-73)/J: Children/K: Daybreak/L: Wheel/M:

George Jones Musicor masters (1972-73)/N: Various Artists/Promotional/P:

Popular/R: Red Seal/S: International/T: Gregar (1970-71) then Metromedia

(1972-73)/V: Victrola/W: Country & Western/X: Chart/Y: Calendar (later renamed

Kirshner)/Z: Colgems/1, 2: Readers’ Digest/3, 4: Custom (in-house disc

mastering)/5: Custom (outside disc mastering)

3rd character (size & speed)

A: master tape (also B, C)/K: 7" 45rpm/L: 7" 33rpm/P: 10" 33rpm/R: 12" 33prm

 

4th character (description)

A: stereo EP/B: mono EP/M: mono/S: stereo/T: quadrophonic/1: New York City

recording/2: Chicago recording (discontinued in 1973)/3: Hollywood recording/4:

Nashville recording/5: outside recording/6: foreign recording (?)

Edited March 16, 2014 by chalky

[Chalky]

It may have been released in 1966 but it was recorded/mastered in 1965 according to the matrix SPKM-5126.  

[Guest Dave Turner]

from an Elvis page 

 

https://www.keithflynn.com/recording-sessions/matrix-numbers/matrixnumbersexplained.html

[boba]

Here is the copyright entry:

 

I'VE GOT TO GET MYSELF TOGETHER; w Kenny

Carter, m Nate Edmonds (Nathaniel

Edmonds) © Dixon & Stokes Music Co.;

29Nov65; EU913985.

 

the publishing matches neither record but another copyright for the RCA title doesn't show up. RCA messed up the credits. I don't know the story as to why.

[John Benson]

Mr Rimmers discography for Kenny Carter shows it at 1965:

RCA Victor 45-8841 - Gotta Get Myself Together / Showdown - 1965

 

Personally I prefer the other side - "Showdown" these days!

 

I've no idea on today's prices for them both though. 

[Tlscapital]

may 1966 sounds about right with kenny carter and that rca catalogue number....spider signed with mgm  a couple of months later

Apparently Spyder had had a deal somehow with MGM with his 'stand by me' in june 1966 following the buzz with his then "à la mode" mocking tribute to all the big name artists interpreting 'stand by me'. Those MGM promos were all doubled 'A' sides and. Wich suggests that that the MGM executives were somehow in the betweens on "the what to do with this NEW HOT product". So after the HIT was confirmed a"rush" commercial  releases had to have a 'B'side but short of material they threw in 'you're good enough for me' that is actually not Spyder Turner but a Thelma recording by none other than Emmanuel Laskey (even though it is credited to ST !). By 1967 Spyder Turner had an LP and a second 45 'I can't make it anymore' taken from the LP just before closing down his deal with MGM.

Edited March 17, 2014 by tlscapital

[Ady Croasdell]

Fred Skau is not an error, it was Kenny's song writing alias so his was the original

[boba]

Fred Skau is not an error, it was Kenny's song writing alias so his was the original

 

fine, it just doesn't credit both writers

[Ady Croasdell]

I'll dig out the RCA session sheet, I'm certain Nat Edmunds isn't on it so did he dive in for his cut as a payment for getting the song re-recorded?

[Tlscapital]

Thanks all for those infos. Now, does this makes sense ?

 

As Chalky said first, the 'S' in the matrix indicate a year (1965) for the recording session.

 

Then Bob's copyright entry as 29 november 1965 with Carter and Edmonds as writers indicate again it was a 1965 project and with both credits AS credited on Spyder Turner 45 on Good Time records.

 

So it could have been issued anytime late 1965 by Spyder Turner and apparently at the same time Kenny Carter was already aiming at bigger things with RCA and cut his own version before releasing it at a later date (may 1966) but making his own credits (Fred Skau is Kenny himself, thanks for that Ady) for god knows what credential reasons.

 

Could it be a story like that ?

[Chalky]

Thanks all for those infos. Now, does this makes sense ?

 

As Chalky said first, the 'S' in the matrix indicate a year (1965) for the recording session.

 

Then Bob's copyright entry as 29 november 1965 with Carter and Edmonds as writers indicate again it was a 1965 project and with both credits AS credited on Spyder Turner 45 on Good Time records.

 

So it could have been issued anytime late 1965 by Spyder Turner and apparently at the same time Kenny Carter was already aiming at bigger things with RCA and cut his own version before releasing it at a later date (may 1966) but making his own credits (Fred Skau is Kenny himself, thanks for that Ady) for god knows what credential reasons.

 

Could it be a story like that ?

 

The top and bottom of this is Spyder doesn't remember when he recorded this, he did say when he was about 17, it could have been quite easily 18 and just before he signed with MGM.  He hasn't even bothered with his Northern tracks until this year so no reason to remember something that was not a hit for him and probably quickly forgotten.  He sang none on his northern related tracks the two previous visits here, we were all seriously disappointed with his appearance last year.

 

My guess is Spyder's recording came after hearing Carter's take and a 1966 release.  What are the matrix details of the good time release, any clues to when it was pressed?  Until we know for sure it is guess work and speculation and you would have to go with Kenny Carter laying this down first. 

[Dave Pinch]

The fact that Kenny wrote it means nothing tho... Look at garland green/ Shelley fisher... Or even jerry butlers ordinary Joe..i think they were both recorded in late 65 but spider came out 1st wth Kenny being in the can for a few months before release

[Bo Diddley]

The top and bottom of this is Spyder doesn't remember when he recorded this, he did say when he was about 17, it could have been quite easily 18 and just before he signed with MGM.  He hasn't even bothered with his Northern tracks until this year so no reason to remember something that was not a hit for him and probably quickly forgotten.  He sang none on his northern related tracks the two previous visits here, we were all seriously disappointed with his appearance last year.

 

My guess is Spyder's recording came after hearing Carter's take and a 1966 release.  What are the matrix details of the good time release, any clues to when it was pressed?  Until we know for sure it is guess work and speculation and you would have to go with Kenny Carter laying this down first. 

The only matrix markings on the GOODTIME/Spider Turner record are scratched in as follows: -     G - 1019 - A

  

 There is also a very, very feint, L W

 

Cheers

Kev Bod

Edited March 17, 2014 by bo diddley

[boba]

one thing that is sort of meaningful though is that if kenny really did write it for RCA himself and publish it under the other publisher there would have been a separate copyright entry for sure. the one i posted was the only one i found in the books.

[Peter99]

Interesting thread

 

 

Peter

[Chalky]

The fact that Kenny wrote it means nothing tho... Look at garland green/ Shelley fisher... Or even jerry butlers ordinary Joe..i think they were both recorded in late 65 but spider came out 1st wth Kenny being in the can for a few months before release

I realise that Dave and am well aware of people writing for others and recording it themselves later.  But i would have thought with Kenny being in a recording contract at the time for RCA he would have been more interested in recording his own material rather than writing for others?  Maybe Ady can shed more light on it?

[Ady Croasdell]

Kenny Carter's version was recorded 27/12/65 but didn't get an RCA release until May 66, the Billboard review was 12th May 66.

 

I personally think Kenny wrote it, Julius Dixon cut it on Spyder in New York before Kenny had signed to RCA and Nate Edmonds got his name on there as part of a deal. When RCA cut it they reverted to just Kenny as writer as the first deal was probably not 100% kosher. 

 

It's odd the Nate Edmunds song registration and Kenny's recording date are only a month apart. I think we can safely say we'll never know for certain unless Spyder has a clerer memory

[Tricky]

Wow.Emanuel Laskey on You’re good enough for me.I never picked up on that before yet it is obvious now.

 

[Soulstrutter]

22 hours ago, TRICKY said:

Wow.Emanuel Laskey on You’re good enough for me.I never picked up on that before yet it is obvious now.

 

Does this make Spyder akin to Milli Vanilli then on this clip 

For those that don't 'get it' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milli_Vanilli#Lip-syncing_exposure_and_media_backlash,_1989–1991

P.S. to confuse things further the poster of the clip 'claims' it's Joe Matthews?????

From comments: "did you know that it is actually the vocals of Joe Matthews? I just found out today. The promo copy of 'stand by me' is a double 'A' side. That is an odd and first-time for an early 1967 MGM single. Spyder's 'stand by me' take was submitted as a demo tape to MGM and they decided to issue it right away. And since it was a 'one' song demo thing, it could only be issued as a double 'A' side 45. The  air-play reaction was immediate and the commercial/stock release had to be issued in a rush to meet the public demand while it was still "hot". So they manage through Clay McMurray (then Spyder Turner manager) who was a corner-stone in all that small Detroit business and music industry to get unreleased material from Thelma records collection. And so it was "intentionally" released as the 'B' side with a fake/cover-up singer name."

 

Edited March 1, 2020 by Soulstrutter

[Robbk]

Clay worked as a producer for Thelma and had a good relationship with The Colemans.  He was probably in on the production of that recording.  So that was a recording to which he had easy access.

i seem to remember seeing the Good Time release in 1965, and not seeing the Kenny Carter till 1966.  Also, the New York/New Jersey Area label font and label design seems too "old" for 1966.  I don't think that design was used as late as mid 1966.

[Robbk]

No wonder Spyder's lip sinkinjg on that song was so lousy!  He hadn't sung that song much at all, because he hadn't recorded it and had little time to practice it when he started making appearances.  And listening to it, it sounds very like a Thelma, Clay MacMurray or Joey King Fish production, rather than a Theodore/Coffey production (his MGM producers/arrangers (who produced a thinner, cleaner sound, and less Funky material.  I always wondered why that one cut sounded so different from the rest of his MGM LP/single cuts. 

[Tlscapital]

On 01/03/2020 at 20:32, Soulstrutter said:

Does this make Spyder akin to Milli Vanilli then on this clip 

For those that don't 'get it' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milli_Vanilli#Lip-syncing_exposure_and_media_backlash,_1989–1991

P.S. to confuse things further the poster of the clip 'claims' it's Joe Matthews?????

From comments: "did you know that it is actually the vocals of Joe Matthews? I just found out today. The promo copy of 'stand by me' is a double 'A' side. That is an odd and first-time for an early 1967 MGM single. Spyder's 'stand by me' take was submitted as a demo tape to MGM and they decided to issue it right away. And since it was a 'one' song demo thing, it could only be issued as a double 'A' side 45. The  air-play reaction was immediate and the commercial/stock release had to be issued in a rush to meet the public demand while it was still "hot". So they manage through Clay McMurray (then Spyder Turner manager) who was a corner-stone in all that small Detroit business and music industry to get unreleased material from Thelma records collection. And so it was "intentionally" released as the 'B' side with a fake/cover-up singer name."

 

Yes and indeed the instant reaction of the public and broadcasting channels of his 'stand by me' prompted M-G-M to get a 'rush commercial release' but without further Spyder's own material to flip his 'infamous gimmick' record. So they borrowed, likely as Robbk pointed out through Clay McMurray but also through Spyder's own connections as he was familiar/friend with those at Thelma's & Co., a tape featuring one of Joe Matthews unused track...

[Tricky]

Sorry!

It sounds like Emanuel Laskey not Joe Matthews to me.

[Robbk]

29 minutes ago, TRICKY said:

Sorry!

It sounds like Emanuel Laskey not Joe Matthews to me.

Yes it does.  I think, if I remember correctly, both Lasky and Matthews recorded it.  Spyder could have gotten the tape from Clay, or Joey King Fish, or Hazel or Robert Coleman.  He knew them all.  I know he and Clay were friends.  They both were regular posters on our Soulful Detroit Forum for many years.  And one of them brought the other to the forum (I'm pretty sure Spyder brought Clay). I just read above, Clay was Spyder's manager at that time.  Well, he was also one of Thelma's 3 major producers at that time (Don Davis had left to work with Golden World, and on his own Groovesville Records by then).  So Clay had a lot of clout at Thelma, and he was Spyder's manager.  So Spyder simply asked Clay to find him a tape to use for the flip.  I assume that Clay had no demos sung by Spyder at that time.  That shows you why you should always have a couple cuts handy, in case of such a situation.

Too bad you all didn't ask this question several years ago.  I could have just asked them both what went down.

 

Edited March 4, 2020 by Robbk

[Tlscapital]

15 minutes ago, TRICKY said:

Sorry!

It sounds like Emanuel Laskey not Joe Matthews to me.

Well yes. The thing is that I read that whole subject's comment a while ago as a 'theory'.

Yet the only record to my ears where Joe sings almost like that is his 'nothing you can do'.

But Spyder's imposter 'he's good enough for me' might have been pitched up in speed.

Where if it's Emmanel's voice it sound 'pinched' some and more of "higher" tone somehow.

So it could very well be Emmanuel's distinctive groaning there and not Joe's doing it.

[Blackpoolsoul]

1 hour ago, Tlscapital said:

Well yes. The thing is that I read that whole subject's comment a while ago as a 'theory'.

Yet the only record to my ears where Joe sings almost like that is his 'nothing you can do'.

But Spyder's imposter 'he's good enough for me' might have been pitched up in speed.

Where if it's Emmanel's voice it sound 'pinched' some and more of "higher" tone somehow.

So it could very well be Emmanuel's distinctive groaning there and not Joe's doing it.

 

2 hours ago, Robbk said:

Yes it does.  I think, if I remember correctly, both Lasky and Matthews recorded it.  Spyder could have gotten the tape from Clay, or Joey King Fish, or Hazel or Robert Coleman.  He knew them all.  I know he and Clay were friends.  They both were regular posters on our Soulful Detroit Forum for many years.  And one of them brought the other to the forum (I'm pretty sure Spyder brought Clay). I just read above, Clay was Spyder's manager at that time.  Well, he was also one of Thelma's 3 major producers at that time (Don Davis had left to work with Golden World, and on his own Groovesville Records by then).  So Clay had a lot of clout at Thelma, and he was Spyder's manager.  So Spyder simply asked Clay to find him a tape to use for the flip.  I assume that Clay had no demos sung by Spyder at that time.  That shows you why you should always have a couple cuts handy, in case of such a situation.

Too bad you all didn't ask this question several years ago.  I could have just asked them both what went down.

 

There was this thread nearly 9 years ago

And this

https://soulfuldetroit.com/showthread.php?16375-Spyder-turner-you-re-good-enough-for-me

Edited March 4, 2020 by Blackpoolsoul

[Robbk]

I've listened to the recording several times and it doesn't sound like Emmanuel to me.  This voice sounds deeper, and a lot less raspy than Emmanuel's.  I'm going to listen to Joe Matthews' more bluesy cuts to see if the singer sounds more like him.

[Robbk]

I've just listened to several Joe Matthews cuts.  The singer doesn't sound like him, either.  Maybe it was Billy Kennedy?

[Tlscapital]

15 hours ago, Robbk said:

I've just listened to several Joe Matthews cuts.  The singer doesn't sound like him, either.  Maybe it was Billy Kennedy?

Joe Matthews's tone pitch is similar but indeed his singing phrasing is more melodic. If Billy Kennedy's tone and syncope way of singing is similar, like almost talking, he still doesn't groan at all. And if Emmanuel Laskey timber is of the lower kind; he groans, talk and has that 'tremolo' in his voice...

Aftermath; Emmanuel Laskey sounds more of a match in comparison with the other pair after closer attention. IMHO. Maybe one needs to listens to Emmanuel Laskey's 'I've got to run for my life' to compare "similarities" even if pitched up. Sounding like it could even be from the same studio session.