This R&b Thing ?

[Pete S]

Mickie Champion must have been one of the first - just another northern soul record in the 70's, but if it was discovered now, it would be R n B

 

I've never thought of that as R&B, just Northern

[macca]

Daft hypothetical question, but given the opportunity to be beamed down into the Twisted Wheel Brazenose St in 1964, how many of us would really 'dig' the playlists there? I can listen to Dimples at home but my own concept of what it is "Northern" is probably quite narrowly defined and limited to what I really 'dug' at nighters I attended from 74 to 84 and that includes the 70s classics and Stafford era tempo change stuff. Charles Sheffield isn't a Northern record to my ears yet The Enchantments "Im In Love With Your Daughter" and Bud Harper "Wherever You Were" are. My judgement may be fooked but that's just the way I perceive them. I understand the It's Northern if it's played at a Northern event argument, but my listening prejudices sort of get in the way. We all have different ears.  

[Bazza]

Daft hypothetical question, but given the opportunity to be beamed down into the Twisted Wheel Brazenose St in 1964, how many of us would really 'dig' the playlists there? I can listen to Dimples at home but my own concept of what it is "Northern" is probably quite narrowly defined and limited to what I really 'dug' at nighters I attended from 74 to 84 and that includes the 70s classics and Stafford era tempo change stuff. Charles Sheffield isn't a Northern record to my ears yet The Enchantments "Im In Love With Your Daughter" and Bud Harper "Wherever You Were" are. My judgement may be fooked but that's just the way I perceive them. I understand the It's Northern if it's played at a Northern event argument, but my listening prejudices sort of get in the way. We all have different ears.  

I would love it Macca ,just up my street

 

Bazza  

[Liamgp]

As a fan of Black American music I've always found a lot of Northern 'classics' far too pop and asinine for my puritanical tastes, whereas 50s/early 60s RnB is (with a few honourable exceptions) an almost pure Black music form.

 

Mind you, after hearing the 50th sax solo of the night, I do get a bit worn down...

[Chalky]

Northern, said so above.

 

Northern isn't a musical genre though.  It is a scene made up of different musical genres.  R&B is every bit Northern as the Wigan pop & Modern.

[Guest gordon russell]

Heres the problem.....someone starts playing good dancing R&B within their sets and it fits great.........then everyone else thinks thats the nod to open the floodgates for all the shite,dirge,shit kicking stuff........IT,S NOT!!....only the stuff that can overlap works...the rest is wrong...........same with funk edged (the clues in the word EDGED) it,s funk edged danceing soul........not deep heavy ghetto funk....which don,t work..........as for beat ballads and crossover....sheer poison

[Guest gordon russell]

I hate all this pigeon holing, if it sounds good play it. Simples.

well what about joey delorenzo and joey jamma?.........they sound so wrong yet they still got played  

[KevH]

Gritty = R&B?

 

Possibly Chalky.I bet it made the R'N'B charts in the States though.But you know how fickle we Brits are and how we like to split hairs.

I know what i call R'N'B,and i guess you and others know as well.

[Modernsoulsucks]

Does the R&B thing also get a worse press than it deserves cos popcorn is sometimes linked to it.

 

Thinking of that Roger Whittaker recent thread.

 

ROD

[Pete S]

Northern isn't a musical genre though.  It is a scene made up of different musical genres.  R&B is every bit Northern as the Wigan pop & Modern.

 

I'm not denying that and never said so, but there is an archetypal Northern Soul sound, it's based more or less around I Can't Help Myself era Motown, and surely nobody can deny that, I doubt if many people's intro to NS was a70's funk or crossover tune.  We loved it because of what it was, stomping 60's soul, what happened after that and how it separated and split is of no interest to me.

[Pete S]

Does the R&B thing also get a worse press than it deserves cos popcorn is sometimes linked to it.

 

Thinking of that Roger Whittaker recent thread.

 

ROD

 

Popcorn is just bizarre though isn't it, it covers a whole spectrum of musical styles from Teen Pop to Ska.

[KevH]

Does the R&B thing also get a worse press than it deserves cos popcorn is sometimes linked to it.

 

Thinking of that Roger Whittaker recent thread.

 

ROD

 

Is someone playing a Roger Whittaker choon.? I knew my old cardigan would make a comeback.

[Bazza]

Popcorn is just bizarre though isn't it, it covers a whole spectrum of musical styles from Teen Pop to Ska.

It might be just me but it seems a lot of Popcorn is just pitched up R&B 

 

Bazza  

[Chalky]

I'm not denying that and never said so, but there is an archetypal Northern Soul sound, it's based more or less around I Can't Help Myself era Motown, and surely nobody can deny that, I doubt if many people's intro to NS was a70's funk or crossover tune.  We loved it because of what it was, stomping 60's soul, what happened after that and how it separated and split is of no interest to me.

 

I don"t disagree with anything you say Pete.  My introduction was through what you describe, the classics, Motown etc. but it evolved to cover just about everything from the 60's to today.   Like I said earlier we can argue all day long about the specifics and simply because it doesn't interest you what happened after any separation doesn't mean it should be dismissed as not Northern.  The same arguments were being had wit the Wigan Mecca split and today the arguments are no different.

[Chalky]

Popcorn is just bizarre though isn't it, it covers a whole spectrum of musical styles from Teen Pop to Ska.

 

 

Bit like northern   

[Guest penny]

Northern isn't a musical genre though.  It is a scene made up of different musical genres.  R&B is every bit Northern as the Wigan pop & Modern.

this is exactly the point.

So you couldn't ever have said that charles sheffield has a northern soul sound, as it's far from typical, but it became a northern soul record due to it working on that scene.

it's not an exclusive term.

conversely, you could describe a complete unknown new discovery as 'pure northern soul' by virtue of it sounding very typical.

from my experience of the scene, and I think this is much to it's credit, tracks from the outer margins usually only get adopted in the main rooms if they are really good, something like barbara redd at one end of the spectrum and dj genesis at the other.

I think more dreary is the 100% bang in the middle, all the right ingriedients and pedigree soul records that are just very average. You dont hear complaints against those, but they're the sort of records that have shaped the dullest nights I've been to.

ultimately, good music is more important than some abstract notions of purity

[Chalky]

well what about joey delorenzo and joey jamma?.........they sound so wrong yet they still got played  

 

Yet both fill the floor more than anything either you or me would prefer?  Who is right or wrong?  

[Guest penny]

Does the R&B thing also get a worse press than it deserves cos popcorn is sometimes linked to it.

 

Thinking of that Roger Whittaker recent thread.

 

ROD

I think it does. But r&b fans have no problem with these certain popcorn records, they're really popular on what there is of an r&b scene. It's the northern fans (and some weird mods) who hate them but I cant think where they've heard them or why they think they ruin northern nights cos you never hear any of that quirky r&b shit played in northern rooms, except maybe barbara redd for a few years.

I honestly believe that a lot of these soul police types not only wanted to police what northern got played in the northern rooms but also what r&b got played in the r&b rooms, and that's where all this comes from, cos I havent heard yet of any cases of a northern soul dj dropping some popcorn record at a northern do.

like I said before, I love popcorn, rocking r&b and the lot and even I never played any at a northern do.

I think it's always been a load of tutting fuss pots fretting about something that isnt even anything to do with them. Heard 2 r&b records or something in a main room and inflate it into some 'what's the world coming to' drama.

it is the british way after all, I bet those europeans look forward to the day that they are old and wise enough to get really worried about such shit.

[Guest penny]

It might be just me but it seems a lot of Popcorn is just pitched up R&B 

 

Bazza  

it's just you. Popcorn, by definition, has to be at a slow jive tempo. Some r&b is like that already - like little joe hinton 'lets start a romance', but most is a bit fast and so they pitch it down - charles sheffield, mike pedicin etc. Often tbe pitch stuff down so much it just sounds ridiculous.

it's not that bizarre pete, it's music from any genre that has the right mood and tempo to work on the scene - just like northern, but more strict with the tempo.

a lot of the crap associated with it stems from a few djs who got really into euro pop and cha cha stuff, and people on ebay trying to shift crap by describing anything weird as popcorn.

If you slag it off you slag off bobby bennett 'alone with my tears', johnny barnes 'nothing without your love' or freddie houston too, cos these are typical sounds.

[Pete S]

it's just you. Popcorn, by definition, has to be at a slow jive tempo. Some r&b is like that already - like little joe hinton 'lets start a romance', but most is a bit fast and so they pitch it down - charles sheffield, mike pedicin etc. Often tbe pitch stuff down so much it just sounds ridiculous.

it's not that bizarre pete, it's music from any genre that has the right mood and tempo to work on the scene - just like northern, but more strict with the tempo.

a lot of the crap associated with it stems from a few djs who got really into euro pop and cha cha stuff, and people on ebay trying to shift crap by describing anything weird as popcorn.

If you slag it off you slag off bobby bennett 'alone with my tears', johnny barnes 'nothing without your love' or freddie houston too, cos these are typical sounds.

 

I was thinking along the lines of the British pre-Beatles pop that they seem to love, Gerry Beckles, Sylvia Sands, more or less anything on the Oriole label   just stuff that was previously considered untouchable by UK collectors

[Bazza]

it's just you. Popcorn, by definition, has to be at a slow jive tempo. Some r&b is like that already - like little joe hinton 'lets start a romance', but most is a bit fast and so they pitch it down - charles sheffield, mike pedicin etc. Often tbe pitch stuff down so much it just sounds ridiculous.

it's not that bizarre pete, it's music from any genre that has the right mood and tempo to work on the scene - just like northern, but more strict with the tempo.

a lot of the crap associated with it stems from a few djs who got really into euro pop and cha cha stuff, and people on ebay trying to shift crap by describing anything weird as popcorn.

If you slag it off you slag off bobby bennett 'alone with my tears', johnny barnes 'nothing without your love' or freddie houston too, cos these are typical sounds.

Penny I never agree with any thing you say ,if the tempo is to slow its pitched up ,if its to fast its pitched down,depends on your Idea of what the tempo should be for a popcorn type tune

 

Bazza  

[Guest penny]

I was thinking along the lines of the British pre-Beatles pop that they seem to love, Gerry Beckles, Sylvia Sands, more or less anything on the Oriole label   just stuff that was previously considered untouchable by UK collectors

yeah, know what you mean...the supposed dead period in the early 60s between rock n roll and beat / soul, that's fertile for those crazy belgians. A lot of that is a bit wimpy to be fair, and I've never heard much of that played in the uk, unless it had a groove like the dick jordan track.

[Guest penny]

Penny I never agree with any thing you say ,if the tempo is to slow its pitched up ,if its to fast its pitched down,depends on your Idea of what the tempo should be for a popcorn type tune

 

Bazza  

strange rule to have but it's not a matter of my opinion in this case, it's simply the truth. Popcorn dancers like it slow, a tempo you can slow jive to, so very few records are pitched up on that scene compared with the amount that are pitched down. r&b is usually quite quick so is generally pitched down if played on that scene.

You said it was pitched up r&b. It isnt. You can disagree if you want, as that seems to give you more satisfaction than being right, which is a bit weird if you dont mind me saying.

[Jordirip]

So what is the stuff that's a bit clip clop Doris Day ish?  I once went to a night where one of the DJ's Murv Parnell or something played an hour of the most soulless music I have ever heard at a soul night. I really thought I was at the wrong venue, yet the floor was busy.

[TOAD]

Ha ha jordi caught him in a well known Birmingham record shop looking through wierd records while i was bagging the decent soul records. The owner seemed pleased to unload a box of the records to him as i bet he was having difficulty in selling them

[Godzilla]

yeah, know what you mean...the supposed dead period in the early 60s between rock n roll and beat / soul, that's fertile for those crazy belgians. A lot of that is a bit wimpy to be fair, and I've never heard much of that played in the uk, unless it had a groove like the dick jordan track.

 

There's also the rule that any record with the word "Cleopatra' in the title has to be played...

[Len]

Yet both fill the floor more than anything either you or me would prefer?  Who is right or wrong?  

 

Um....You and Terry are right - The masses are wrong.

 

Len  

[Len]

Hiya Len

RnB stinks? Did you dislike it that much when it was played on the Mod Scene? I appreciate it's a different scene, but my RnB roots have never left me

Regards

Ali Bob

 

Hiya Alison (Mrs Positive)  

 

To be clear here - My 'R 'n' B' Stinks' jibe was done 'tongue in cheek', although unfortunately some did take offence - which is incredible if you know me at all (I think some read it the way they wanted to actually)

 

I never did like the 'R 'n' B' stuff really, I thought I liked Jazz, but it was always Dom and his Soul stuff 'freshly outa The 100 Club' that really did it for me......just took me a while to work out 'what was what'  

 

My 'jibe' was done in reaction to going to venues and hearing the R'n' B that just didn't 'do it' for atmosphere - I found myself getting frustrated, and going outside......I have since seen that there is good R 'n' B, and bad R 'n' B - The ones who play the bad stuff let the ones that play the good stuff down badly because people end up writing it off completely (As I did)

 

That also goes for any genre - I'm well aware of the Beat Ballads that may stop people listening to lovely Mid-tempo Soul that should be played more (imho)....It's called 'Mid', not 'slow'......It's a matter of really seeing who's playing the good stuff and who ain't - as I said that goes for any genre.

 

I confess to have loved Latin Soul........I blame Mace and Dave Ingle for that, crumbs that was a long time ago mate, it was the 80's when you D.Jed for me  ........Rhythmm......Rithum......Ridum......Damn. damn, damn   

 

All the best,

 

Len  

Edited March 3, 2014 by LEN

[Len]

Lest we forget that Lens first promotion was actually a 'Rhythm & Soul Club' where R&B was as evident in playlists as Northern....(I know this as I DJed at what I believe to be the first one)

Actually, this isn't 100% true, it was entitled a 'RYTHM & Soul Club' on the banner hung behind the decks.....I'm guessing that whilst Len might profess to maturing more towards Soul after his teens, it was probably moreso due to the fact that he could spell SOUL a lot easier than RHYTHM......

;o)

 

Yes, you are never gonna forget that, nor is my Mum after me trying to re-do the paint job on that black curtain in the garden and getting in a right old tizz! 

 

You are correct mate - As you can see below, although this being a later flyer, around that time I advertised all kinds of music, and even pushed 'a little bit of 70's' which was 'pushing it' for the type of event. Do you remember the uproar when I played 'Praying' at The Isle of White? - Thank god for Danny Huff, and The Ugly Bugglies for making up for everyone's scowls!  ......I know Alison remembers that

 

As we all should except, each to his own an' all that. But I do hate it when some become too precious about their choice - I get loads of stick for my 'poor taste', but I couldn't give a sh*t - It's my taste, and know lots are 'in my gang'......the ones with taste.......

 

All the best,

 

Len  

 

Edited March 3, 2014 by LEN

[Mace]

There's also the rule that any record with the word "Cleopatra' in the title has to be played...

Ha ha....Gav Arno reckons all the good R&B records must have a reference to either food or money in the title.....though Jungle animals, black magic and your suggestion of Cleopatra must rank pretty high.

Hence an unknown 45 with the following title/artist/label....

'Sold my monkey to the voodoo man (to buy me some grits)' by Dollar Cash & the Cents on Cleo Records.

....would have a 98% chance of being a killer R&B track!

[KevH]

So what is the stuff that's a bit clip clop Doris Day ish?  I once went to a night where one of the DJ's Murv Parnell or something played an hour of the most soulless music I have ever heard at a soul night. I really thought I was at the wrong venue, yet the floor was busy.

 

Doris Day - "trot-over."

Edited March 3, 2014 by KevH

[Godzilla]

Ha ha....Gav Arno reckons all the good R&B records must have a reference to either food or money in the title.....though Jungle animals, black magic and your suggestion of Cleopatra must rank pretty high.

Hence an unknown 45 with the following title/artist/label....

'Sold my monkey to the voodoo man (to buy me some grits)' by Dollar Cash & the Cents on Cleo Records.

....would have a 98% chance of being a killer R&B track!

 

 

I would buy a record called "Sold My Monkey To the Voodoo Man" on sight, without a moments hesitation!

Edited March 3, 2014 by Godzilla

[KevH]

I would buy a record called "Sold My Monkey To he Voodoo Man" on sight, without a moments hesitation!

 

How about "Spank my monkey" on Money Shot.?

[Len]

 R'n'B killed my enjoyment of alnighters from the mid 90's onward.

 When I got into them, in the mid 70's, I loved the 60's/70's stuff. In the 80's, still liked the 60's but loved the 70's/80's. End of the 80's saw me hitting the modern rooms but still spending most of the night in the main rooms. I was quite happy in the modern rooms but it wasn't the whole thing for me, as I loved it all, but going to a single room nighter in the mid 90's and knowing I'll be spending most of the night talking outside 'cause from 1 till 4 the headliners would be playing RnB made it seem pointless to me. When Bretby, Winsford & Albrighton finished so did I.

 Couldn't see the point of arguing about it I just stopped going

 John   

 

I had the same experience (very noticeable at one particular venue) - It seemed to happen rather suddenly didn't it?

 

All the best,

 

Len  

[Mace]

How about "Spank my monkey" on Money Shot.?

That's just wrong......pervert!

[Godzilla]

How about "Spank my monkey" on Money Shot.?

 

Lacking in the old hoodoo department,  I'm afraid...

[TOAD]

And then they disappeared

[Mace]

And then they disappeared

Hmmm, not so sure....still plenty of them frequent the Northern Scene that I am aware of...probably moreso down south.....

Edited March 3, 2014 by Mace

[Guest penny]

About 95/96, seemed to notice a influx of newbies from the mod scene who appeared to approve of the direction the scene was taking.

But you're a northern soul fan leaning strongly towards modern, you're not going to like any r&b played. If the night suited you perfectly, then it wouldn't have appealed to all those who enjoyed the r&b ...the trend just didnt go in your favour....

what point is being made here? That, at times, as some dos in the past, too much r&b was played in the opinion of people who dont like r&b?

just the same shit on loop : there's too much this or that for ME ME ME. It's narcissistic dammit

[TOAD]

No northern was played at retro mod clubs that i went too mid 8ts they didn't like it.so what happens RnB gets played at northern nighters and they come and take up a second room usually empty, i did notice no mods at prestatyn weekender's when there wasn't a RnB room!!! As one person commented to me ffs if they can have a RnB room why not a Trojan reggae room.myself if i want to hear Latin etc etc i would go to a dedicated night most want soul and nothing else at a soul allnighter

[Mace]

No northern was played at retro mod clubs that i went too mid 8ts they didn't like it.so what happens RnB gets played at northern nighters and they come and take up a second room usually empty, i did notice no mods at prestatyn weekender's when there wasn't a RnB room!!! As one person commented to me ffs if they can have a RnB room why not a Trojan reggae room.myself if i want to hear Latin etc etc i would go to a dedicated night most want soul and nothing else at a soul allnighter

I was very active on the (retro?) mod scene mid to late 80s and plenty of Northern was played....not sure where you were going but it was definitely there....in fact, a lot of the Northern 45s in my collection were bought during that period and I was DJing and promoting plenty of mod events at that time?

Edited March 3, 2014 by Mace

[TOAD]

Just a comment mace on the way i saw it i wasn't a mod i just went along to hear the music as i enjoyed the club soul type of records.

[Winsford Soul]

What I want to know is WHO  decides what goes into what category. Steve a confused lover of mainly black dance music 

[MrsWoodsrules]

I can live with a sensible amount of RnB in a set.

Some great stuff, Hayes Cotton, Albert Washington, lots of good stuff.

What turns me off personally is doo-wop! 

Cant be doing with it, but each to their own I always say, life would be boring if we all liked the same things (I'm usually refering to 'types' of women or music when I do :-))

[Mace]

Just a comment mace on the way i saw it i wasn't a mod i just went along to hear the music as i enjoyed the club soul type of records.

I would say the mod scene in Birmingham and Coventry never really embraced Northern Soul, certainly not to the degree that the rest of the UK mod scene did.... So if the clubs you frequented were in those areas Toad then I can appreciate your view....ironically Tony Reynolds probably now plays more Northern when he DJs than he ever did back then!

[Winsford Soul]

Whoops double post. Sorry Steve

Edited March 3, 2014 by Winsford Soul

[Frankie Crocker]

Was at Soul On The Square in London Saturday night - terrific new venue, great crowd, beer at £2.60 a pint, a fantastic array of Northern Oldies and lesser known 60's sounds: the RnB tracks sounded lame and shallow by comparison with only a couple making a positive impression ie Etta James. There is a time and place for RnB, but it's embryonic nature puts it in the shadows unless it really has that oomph factor like Charles Sheffield, great record, but sadly overplayed.

[Guest gaz thomas]

I love 60s Rhythm n Blues, and the soulful uptempo side of 60 Rhythm n Blues which people could call northern soul  in the uk

unless they are into 70s / crossover / uptempo / or traditional northern soul nighter classics

in which case they don't seem to like 60s rhythm n blues

 

LMFAO - You could not make this up

 

Vintage Soul and Rhythm n Blues - that's where I am !

From Louis Jordan to Betty Lavette via the Ascots and including Joe bataan and everything else in between

Excello records, Shrine records, Midas records, Soultown Records......suck em all up

The collecting never stops

stuff your scene politics up your bum

last 2 45s i bought were on sotoplay records

 

60s rnb is the nuts

its all one and the same to me

 

If it moves me then its my taste, and i am after it, 

MOD ....end of discussion

Edited March 4, 2014 by gaz thomas

[Guest gaz thomas]

hayes cotton, brooks brothers, bud harper, carl underwood, otis lee, and ray agee in the 80s

 

jeezus, the scene always had amazing 60s rnb records played out every week

thats why i got into allnighers then, as a young mod 

Anyone who says this is a northern soul record is missing my point

 

i used to attend all nighters in the 80s just to hear 60s rnb rarities

 

this a up-tempo 60s rnb record

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1xbuJqq2hU

Edited March 4, 2014 by gaz thomas

[Guest gaz thomas]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fn3rSNKaV6Q

Edited March 4, 2014 by gaz thomas