An Interesting Question About Northern Soul

[Guest]

I was sent a rather large questionnaire about Northern Soul today, by a University student. The question was:

In a video about northern, The Northern Soul Story (2001), the author makes this statement: 'We were pretending to be black. We danced as though we were black. We even sang as though we were black'. Do you think northern soul involves pretending to be black?

I thought that was a fantastic question! What's your answer? I'll tell you mine later as I obviously don't want to incite answers pertinent to my own answer

[Sanquine]

I was sent a rather large questionnaire about Northern Soul today, by a University student. The question was:

I thought that was a fantastic question! What's your answer? I'll tell you mine later as I obviously don't want to incite answers pertinent to my own answer

Most definately not to all three statements. To be honest never entered my head in the 30 yrs I've been involved with the music. Never pretend to be anything other than myself - always danced and still do by expressing my passion and feel for the music through dance - which comes from my heart and soul and nothing else.

In answer to the question - never thought anyone on the scene pretended to be black and Northern soul has never been about pretending to be black.

No way I could ever pretend to sing as though black - anyone heard my attempts at singing will verify that - I'm tone deaf

Karen

Edited July 5, 2006 by sanquine

[pikeys dog]

What a load of crap.

[Lloydee]

Wasn't there a term referred to Soulies in the 7T's as 'wigger'; meaning white *igger?

[Little-stevie]

Yes ...But i have an head start on most of you.... ....

I know some blokes in the past who pretended to be black or wanted to be but none of them where from the soul scene...

[Guest Richard Bergman]

Yes ...But i have an head start on most of you.... ....

I know some blokes in the past who pretended to be black or wanted to be but none of them where from the soul scene...

Example number one :

[Guest]

Yes ...But i have an head start on most of you.... ....

I know some blokes in the past who pretended to be black or wanted to be but none of them where from the soul scene...

Where i live all the chav kids pretend to be from the Bronx but unfortunately seem to think that means sounding like the chief w*gger of them all WESTWOOD .

Derek

[Guest Richard Bergman]

Yes ...But i have an head start on most of you.... ....

I know some blokes in the past who pretended to be black or wanted to be but none of them where from the soul scene...

Example 2:

This is radio 1 hip hop dj Tim Westwood (on the left) (who regualrly talks about putting caps in peoples arses), giving his best impression of a rapper....he's standing next to this chap hoping that some his blackness will rub off on him...Tim Westwoods father is a member of the clergy in the home counties -

Edited July 5, 2006 by Richard Bergman

[Guest Dan]

Example 2:

This is radio 1 hip hop dj Tim Westwood (on the left) (who regualrly talks about putting caps in peoples arses), giving his best impression of a rapper....he's standing next to this chap hoping that some his blackness will rub off on him...Tim Westwoods father is a member of the clergy in the home counties -

i'm sure this is just me, but how would you put a cap in someone's arse? would you roll it up first? and why would you want to do it anyway?

[SteveM]

i'm sure this is just me, but how would you put a cap in someone's arse? would you roll it up first? and why would you want to do it anyway?

If its a flat cap, you should ask some of the Lancastrians on here. They'd know I'm sure, although there may be a whippet involved somewhere

[Guest Stuart T]

i'm sure this is just me, but how would you put a cap in someone's arse? would you roll it up first? and why would you want to do it anyway?

Maybe he doesn't mean a school or flat cap at all, but perhaps the cap from a bottle of something? I find it quite disquieting how some of these so called celebrities get their kicks. He'll be smoking marijuana next.

Viz took the Mick out of him quite well, he was in hell and that involved his mum showing gingster wrappers like Biggie Small (a most amusing dichotomous juxtaposition for a name) pictures of Timmy as a choir boy.

Edited July 5, 2006 by Stuart T

[Guest PayneyJnr]

Westwood only goes to prove that the whole Gangsta Rap style, genre call it what you will is largely a ruse.

And he sounds like the biggest charlaton of the lot mainly because he's white, weedy and from the home counties.

'Blayzin' innit'

Complete dick.

[Ged Parker]

I was sent a rather large questionnaire about Northern Soul today, by a University student. The question was:

I thought that was a fantastic question! What's your answer? I'll tell you mine later as I obviously don't want to incite answers pertinent to my own answer

Absolutely not. I admire many black people, some singers in particular, but pretend to be black not in the sense implied in the question. It is possible that some people maybe even me included have imagined them selves as a particular singer whilst belting out an accompaniament to a 45 playing at full vloume in the privacy of our own homes . But only in the way I used to imagine myself as Dennis Tuart scoring with an overhead kick in the '76 league cup final. : up:

I don't know where the quote is from but they obviously got it all wrong, in my opinion at least.

Edited July 5, 2006 by ged parker

[stomper45]

Example 2:

This is radio 1 hip hop dj Tim Westwood (on the left) (who regualrly talks about putting caps in peoples arses), giving his best impression of a rapper....he's standing next to this chap hoping that some his blackness will rub off on him...Tim Westwoods father is a member of the clergy in the home counties -

are you sure its his father? thought "woodie the hoodie" was his STETSON

think he meant cap as in limit, tho maybe its a SOU'WESTER

danny

[Billy Freemantle]

Pretending to be black certainly had nothing to do with it in the days of The Wheel. Could be that certain fashions were influenced by what blaclk people wore such as berets and driving gloves, but even that was not conscious copying I don't think.

[Guest]

I was sent a rather large questionnaire about Northern Soul today, by a University student. The question was:

I thought that was a fantastic question! What's your answer? I'll tell you mine later as I obviously don't want to incite answers pertinent to my own answer

Hi ya,

To be honest and my view is, it shouldnt be about wot colour you are, wot does that matter?!

[Guest in town Mikey]

I was sent a rather large questionnaire about Northern Soul today, by a University student. The question was:

I thought that was a fantastic question! What's your answer? I'll tell you mine later as I obviously don't want to incite answers pertinent to my own answer

As the others have said. nobody was trying to be black (unless they already were i guess).

how do you dance black? I thought we all danced northern Soul style, which at the time was pretty unique.

As for singing black. Some maybe. My mate rufus lumley defo, That Dusty Springfield possibly. but speedy at the casino?? Not a chance mate.

It was probably a throw away comment. It was certainly an ill thought out one.

if it was by the clothes designer, he should already know we didnt dress black. We had baggier trousers than most, but flares were the fashion across all genders and colours in 70s Britain.

Edited July 5, 2006 by in town Mikey

[Guest andycambs]

This is radio 1 hip hop dj Tim Westwood (on the left) (who regualrly talks about putting caps in peoples arses), giving his best impression of a rapper....he's standing next to this chap hoping that some his blackness will rub off on him...Tim Westwoods father is a member of the clergy in the home counties -

Maybe he is talking about Dutch Caps

Andy

[Guest]

Example 2:

This is radio 1 hip hop dj Tim Westwood (on the left) (who regualrly talks about putting caps in peoples arses), giving his best impression of a rapper....he's standing next to this chap hoping that some his blackness will rub off on him...Tim Westwoods father is a member of the clergy in the home counties -

I think he's actually talking about the little pinkish caps you used in "cap guns". (Remember them!!!)

Though I can't for the life of me think why he'd want to put them up peoples arses!!!!

[Winnie :-)]

I was sent a rather large questionnaire about Northern Soul today, by a University student. The question was:

In a video about northern, The Northern Soul Story (2001), the author makes this statement: 'We were pretending to be black. We danced as though we were black. We even sang as though we were black'. Do you think northern soul involves pretending to be black?

I thought that was a fantastic question! What's your answer? I'll tell you mine later as I obviously don't want to incite answers pertinent to my own answer

==================

Don't think anybody pretends to be black but there probably is a degree of imitation involved, although the two are words apart. Dance moves and phrasing when singing along with tracks are the two examples that spring to mind. Some British artists nowadays sing as though they're American because that's what the market requires, but again it's only imitation.

Winnie:-)

[Gene-r]

==================

Don't think anybody pretends to be black but there probably is a degree of imitation involved, although the two are words apart. Dance moves and phrasing when singing along with tracks are the two examples that spring to mind. Some British artists nowadays sing as though they're American because that's what the market requires, but again it's only imitation.

Winnie:-)

You should listen to "Tightrope/Driving Me Mad" by the Soul Blenders on Kinght! There is an excellent example of a (supposed) white singer trying to sound black. But he completely screws it up on "Driving Me Mad", to the point of sounding just like Jim Davidson doing his "chalky" routine!

Any truth in the Soul Blenders lead singer being Gary Sol'e?

[Guest Dan]

Pretending to be black certainly had nothing to do with it in the days of The Wheel. Could be that certain fashions were influenced by what blaclk people wore such as berets and driving gloves, but even that was not conscious copying I don't think.

was it berets they were trying to put up peoples' arses, then?

and do black people wear driving gloves?

yours,

confused of warwickshire

[Guest trickbag]

IM FROM BELFAST,NEVER SEEN A BLACK MAN/WOMAN

UNTILL I JOINED THE PARAS IN 69,I LIKE MYSELF JUST THE

WAY I AM, NEVER WANTED TO BE ANYONE ELSE,NOT A WANABEE.

RICKY.

SOCK IT TO EM SHORTY.

[Guest Goldwax]

Pretending to be black? How the f*&k do you do that exactly?

[Guest martyn]

Pretending to be black? How the f*&k do you do that exactly?

Sitting in the garden for the last week would have been a good start,otherwise I havent a clue .............The original statement is some of the biggest bollocks Ive ever heard.

[jocko]

I was sent a rather large questionnaire about Northern Soul today, by a University student. The question was:

I thought that was a fantastic question! What's your answer? I'll tell you mine later as I obviously don't want to incite answers pertinent to my own answer

WTF I think its an incredibly stupid question, bordering on insulting. I really don't believe you seen fit to ask this, why the f**k would you pretend to be another colour. Glad to see the race relations education programme has worked in our wonderful country.

Jock

[Billy Freemantle]

was it berets they were trying to put up peoples' arses, then?

and do black people wear driving gloves?

yours,

confused of warwickshire

Blimey, Dan are you on acid?

[Guest Bearsy]

Oh no is you telling me after all this years i is not black,

does a sun tan count !!!!

brother bearsy

[Winnie :-)]

WTF I think its an incredibly stupid question, bordering on insulting. I really don't believe you seen fit to ask this, why the f**k would you pretend to be another colour. Glad to see the race relations education programme has worked in our wonderful country.

Jock

=================

She didn't ask it, she was asked and has relayed it to the list. Visually, unless you go down the 'Al Jolson' route you can't pretend to be another colour. You can however adopt customs etc, which is what we ask immigrants to do if they come to Britain.

Winnie:-)

[Guest Goldwax]

Sitting in the garden for the last week would have been a good start,otherwise I havent a clue .............The original statement is some of the biggest bollocks Ive ever heard.

[Guest in town Mikey]

I dont think the question itself should be belittled. Especially as it is posed by someone from outside the scene, and they are quoting someone from within so to speak.

But it is the kind of nonsense Anthropologists like to trot out to make themselves sound important and educated. Disected it shows that the person quoted hasnt completley thought it through, as I said earlier.

Nobody as far as I know has attempted to really find out why Northern Soul music, tho predominently performed by Black Americans, is so devoutly followed by so many White kids in the UK. (Dont want to widen this to the rest of the world now, as I believe the quoted was referring to the 70s.)

I would assume that with discrimination the way it was in the 70s the majority of black kids had very low paid jobs, if they had jobs at all. many of the guys travelling around the country would have better paid jobs, done apprentiships (remember those?) or come from families with a greater disposable income, that allowed their kids the freedom to disappear at weekends. To feel part of the inner workings of the scene, rather like the mods of the 60s, it was important to be seen in the right places. If some guys couldnt afford it, they may have lost interest early.

Also, most kids are of the same mentality. I grew up in Gloucestershire where Northern Soul was a vibrant part of youth culture. I was lucky to be able to go along even at a young age, and feel accepted. Many black kids especially in the cities would have hung out together. If they saw a predominently white club, they might prefer to go to their own and avoid the idiots. So clubs playing Ska, reggae etc would have been their preffered way to spend weekends.

Of course all that is a sweeping generalisation, as there are well known regulars at Northern Soul nights.

So we werent trying to be black at all. We were trying to fit in with our peers, in exactly the same way as rock fans would. Are they black because they were wearing all that leather garb? No. Nor were we in dancing to our music.

(OH well. Looks like I killed this thread stone dead)

Edited July 5, 2006 by in town Mikey

[Soulsmith]

I was sent a rather large questionnaire about Northern Soul today, by a University student. The question was:

I thought that was a fantastic question! What's your answer? I'll tell you mine later as I obviously don't want to incite answers pertinent to my own answer

Karen, I have to disagree. Its a very silly question.

Pretending to be black? How the f*&k do you do that exactly?

Thats a better question!

[Makemvinyl]

if this is just question 1

what caterwalling will question 02 bring up

was god a rock n roller

university education far to complex

[Guest andrew bin]

Tim Westwood is pure class, i got every one in work to listen to him the other week, haven't laughed so much for years "ride with the big dawg" (dog) "yoo yoo yoo man" "respec" one of work colleages even sent him a text asking him if was "mentaly retarded"

if you haven't heard his show your really missing out

think sean chapman also listens to him

[Deegee]

Most definately not to all three statements. To be honest never entered my head in the 30 yrs I've been involved with the music. Never pretend to be anything other than myself - always danced and still do by expressing my passion and feel for the music through dance - which comes from my heart and soul and nothing else.

In answer to the question - never thought anyone on the scene pretended to be black and Northern soul has never been about pretending to be black.

No way I could ever pretend to sing as though black - anyone heard my attempts at singing will verify that - I'm tone deaf

Karen

Couldnt put it any better than that. But I do like a good old sing!!

[Guest]

I wonder who the person was that provided the Quote for the question?

[Supercorsa]

=================

Visually, unless you go down the 'Al Jolson' route you can't pretend to be another colour. Winnie:-)

Winnie, two words......MICHAEL JACKSON.

[Guest WPaulVanDyk]

That was a load of old cobs wollop how can we be black and certainly didn't try.

What's he gonna post up next a question like Why are there so many white people into and at Northern soul nights when you think of Soul music as black music for black people

[Billy Freemantle]

That was a load of old cobs wollop how can we be black and certainly didn't try.

What's he gonna post up next a question like Why are there so many white people into and at Northern soul nights when you think of Soul music as black music for black people

Yeah, he'll most likley ask something really daft like that. Well anticipated WPaul.

Edited July 6, 2006 by Billy Freemantle

[Guest]

The questions have come from a university student so I don't think any question she asked was improper or daft!

If you all read the question again properly you'll see that she is actually QUOTING something somebody else has said, that in fact appears in a film!

I hope you don't mind me emailing you. I am a researhcer at the University of Salford currently researching the Northern Soul scene. I am looking for the female perspective of being a northern soul fan and wondered if you would be willing to speak with me?

Edited July 6, 2006 by ♫ Soulgirl ♫

[Jumpinjoan]

Errm..... after her brilliant 100 club slip many years ago..... i did try to be Betty Lavette for a while

[Guest]

Cover youself up girl

Great photo!

[Sanquine]

Errm..... after her brilliant 100 club slip many years ago..... i did try to be Betty Lavette for a while

Hanging a bit low there Joan.......

Karen

Edited July 6, 2006 by sanquine

[Billy Freemantle]

The questions have come from a university student so I don't think any question she asked was improper or daft!

A university student? Oh, well can't be daft then. All dead brainy them university students. No-one from a university has ever been known to say anything stupid.

[Guest]

Billy Freemantle. Being sarcastic like that is a little shortsighted. This is someone who is researching the soul scene - why do you presume her questions are daft/stupid. She's looking for answers, not sarcasm. It's how people learn!

[Billy Freemantle]

Billy Freemantle. Being sarcastic like that is a little shortsighted. This is someone who is researching the soul scene - why do you presume her questions are daft/stupid. She's looking for answers, not sarcasm. It's how people learn!

Karen: Look at the context of my inital 'daft'. I'm using it in connection with WPaul's ironic quip that next they'll be asking why Northern Soul is predominantly a white scene yet the muisc is black. This of course is not daft. And I'm sure the initial question of the university student wasn't stupid either. But what was silly and uninformed, although it does have quite a ring to it, is the bit about "We danced as if we were black etc " Or however it goes.

Edited July 6, 2006 by Billy Freemantle

[Guest Dan]

Billy Freemantle. Being sarcastic like that is a little shortsighted. This is someone who is researching the soul scene - why do you presume her questions are daft/stupid. She's looking for answers, not sarcasm. It's how people learn!

like, really? is that right? i never knew that!

students: eggheads or twats. discuss.

[Guest rachel]

Has anyone seen this 'Northern Soul Story' film? Doesn't ring any bells with me and I thought I'd seen most of these sort of things to the point of wanting to smash the screen when that clip of Wigan with Judy Street playing in the background came on again.

Oh yes, and nothing students say is ever daft

[Jumpinjoan]

A university student? Oh, well can't be daft then. All dead brainy them university students. No-one from a university has ever been known to say anything stupid.

I'm a university student..... do i look as though i'd do or say anything stupid?

[Guest]

Karen: Look at the context of my inital 'daft'. I'm using it in connection with WPaul's ironic quip that next they'll be asking why Northern Soul is predominantly a white scene yet the muisc is black.

That question was also on the questionnaire ....