Particularly in the 60's, does anyone know if there was any 'processes' between sending out the demo copies
and the subsequent decision to press up and issue the record?

After a certain number of airplays was a song considered a (local) hit
and on the strength of this the issues were pressed?

Did (big) labels just automatically press a number of issues in order to meet any demand
before the next 'hit' cornered the market?

Edited January 26, 201411 yr by simon t

 HI ALL...Good question UK Demos or Promotional copy not for sale, were pressed up on the first run from the A stamper, the DEMOS are not only collected for their unique labels, but also for the best sound quality, they were sent out to BBC radio & TV, ITA regions like REDIFUFUSION LONDON in particular shows like RSG (Ready Steady Go) & Kool Kats 11, Hospital Radio, PIRATE RADIO, Radio & TV shops, not often to Record shops?, normally 4 weeks before the release, however only a few were played as advanced listening on radio, the BEATLES I can remember hearing before release date that's all pre RADIO 1, shows like ROSKOS ROUND TABLE was one of the first to review new records, also DJs had a record of the week,

The average run was 250 often less, also I can't recall seeing UK DEMOS until the 1970s and the small number of rare soul seemed to be impossible to find, with only a lucky few who were in the know! for me it was Mick Smiths record collection in the early 7ts that got me hooked on the rare British collecting scene, I have still got Mick original Atlantic DEMO of TAMI LYNNS classic, it cost me £1.50, most of the early Soul Scene rare stuff is worIth much more on a UK DEMO than the US first release with the exception of about 5, playing the US COPY is very UNCOOL  DAVEK

Edited January 27, 201411 yr by dthedrug

In the US it varied and there are no hard and fast rules. With the larger companies demos were really for radio stations AM (mono) FM (stereo). When FM became popular, that's when you saw mono / stereo demos coming into vogue - AM stations would play the mono side, FM stations the stereo side.

 

Apart from companies selling demos as a tax scam (O'Keh for example), generally you could assume that the demos were given out to DJs to play on radio. If there was negative or no reaction, sometimes the issue would be pulled from the release schedule, but more often than not with the larger labels the issues had already been pressed ready for the shops. This was because the record companies wanted to be ready to get the record out if it was starting to take off and not worry about scheduling another time with the pressing company. If they pulled the release they'd just skip the issue copies in the bin. Anyway that's why some issues are v rare while demos are plentiful.

 

Sometimes they only went for a regional market, i.e. demo'd the record around a certain area and then only went national if they got a favourable reaction. That's where the "Regional breakouts" came from, Billboard etc would run lists of records that were getting played in different geographical areas. A record could be a "breakout" on radio in Baltimore, but be doing nothing in New York for example. 

 

As for timelines between demo and issue that really depended on the reaction, if something started to take off fast, then the issues would be out and in the distributors hands very quickly - within a week sometimes. Othertimes not could take up to two months before the issues got out.

 

When you look at smaller labels where there wasn't the budget or standardised process, that isn't necessarily so, sometimes just demos or just issues were made. There is no hard and fast rule. 

Edited January 27, 201411 yr by Steve G

  On 27/01/2014 at 07:53, Steve G said:

In the US it varied and there are no hard and fast rules. With the larger companies demos were really for radio stations AM (mono) FM (stereo). When FM became popular, that's when you saw mono / stereo demos coming into vogue - AM stations would play the mono side, FM stations the stereo side.

 

 

I have always thought that apart from the technical reasons (surely AM could have broadcast Stereo and vice versa),  it also gave the record company more 'control' over which side was played - preventing those pesky DJ's 'flippiing' it!! Mind it is purely conjecture on my part :o) 

  On 27/01/2014 at 08:46, Mike Lofthouse said:

I have always thought that apart from the technical reasons (surely AM could have broadcast Stereo and vice versa),  it also gave the record company more 'control' over which side was played - preventing those pesky DJ's 'flippiing' it!! Mind it is purely conjecture on my part :o) 

 

Nah Mike, AMs liked mono. That's why you can trace the rise in FM stations and kind of link it to the double A sided demo. 

  On 27/01/2014 at 10:29, Steve G said:

Nah Mike, AMs liked mono. That's why you can trace the rise in FM stations and kind of link it to the double A sided demo. 

..................and of course there is no way major labels would do anything as cynical as controlling what people play and listen too    as I say its always been purely conjecture on my part.

Picking up on Steve G's post ............ Baltimore was a very important radio market for black labels.

3 local stations played soul & had listeners over a wide geographic area (plus there was a 4th local stn in Annapolis). 

Lots of label record pluggers would make trips to Baltimore to give copies to local radio DJ's they knew, some 45's were only pre-viewed on Baltimore (and nearby east coast) radio stns.

If a 45 didn't take off there, sometimes demo copies wouldn't be sent out nationwide & issues wouldn't be pressed up.

Alternatively, if a 45 took off on a Baltimore stn, it would be re-marketed in numerous other regions (with 2nd pressing demos being pressed up & mailed out).

Edited January 27, 201411 yr by Roburt

Wasn't the mono side played on AM stations also something to do with it sounding better somehow?

I forget now, but seem to think I read something along those lines at some point.

just to be clear, AM stations only broadcast in mono. There were a bunch of AM stereo experiments that never caught on:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AM_stereo

 

obviously there's no reason Mike Lofthouse and Steve can't both be right

 

One important point is that labels don't pay royalties on promotional and cut out copies. Even if it wasn't a tax scam, they lose more money pressing stock copies.

  On 26/01/2014 at 23:14, simon t said:

Particularly in the 60's, does anyone know if there was any 'processes' between sending out the demo copies

and the subsequent decision to press up and issue the record?

 

I know the idea that US record companies only pressed stock copies after demo copies had been sent out and got positive response has been around for ages but is there any truth in it. This theory probably started in the record bars of Wigan,Staford etc to explain the fact that a lot of records were common on demos but rare , or at that time unknown on stock copies. Interviews with artists or US label owners that I've read have never mentioned this, artists usually complain that their record label issued a record with no promotion. What would the chief exec of a major label say to the label manager who signed an artist, hired a studio, musicians and producer, recorded four tracks then only pressed a few demos as they wanted to see how it went. Get the f*** out of here would be the likely response.

From my time selling records wholesale and retail in the 70s the shops had to have the records as soon, if not before, the public wanted to buy them.Saturdays used to be when most young people bought the new records so if a record they had heard that week was not in the shops they bought a different one but forgot about the one they couldn't get next week. Also mobile and club DJs wanted a new release that week. The US market was a bit different in that records got regional airplay, but still the buyers wanted the records the radio had played that week. A shop owner in the US could get the new releases very quickly from the local distributor or a one-stop but the record had to have been pressed up and sent out weeks before. An unknown artist may have only had a smaller press run but they had to press a fair number just in case. The cost of pressing records was very little compared to recording and mastering.

The scarcity of stock copies is more likely due to fact that distributors returned stock and the companies scrapped them rather than have the label appear to have a lot of flops in the 10 cent bins. Demo copies didn't count for royalties so they just let the distributors keep them.

The type of usual pressing order could be as mentioned in the liner notes for Strange Neighborhood- by The Imaginations on the Kent CD Classiest Rarities; "Interestingly 3,500 regular labels and 5,000 demo labels were ordered for the first pressing,indicating why issues are sometimes rarer than DJ copies" (Ady C)

Rick

  On 28/01/2014 at 23:04, Rick Cooper said:

 

 

Most major labels almost always pressed up predetermined numbers of each 45 and unless it was quickly withdrawn (due to dispute with artist or pressing fault), then many 100's of copies would have been manufactured & sent to distributors. BUT for lots of little labels, cash was always short. So demo copies would only be sent out to a few local radio stns / DJ's.

Even issues would many times be scarce as the cash wasn't available to put out loads of copies of each release.

Cleveland based Way Out Records had their own studio, so cut 100's & 100's of tracks. They would then press up limited copies of 45's featuring some of the tracks laid down. If they landed a national distribution deal (as they did with Atlantic & then MGM) then Way Out stuff (& a few of the organisations sub-label releases) would be made available in quantity. But if they had to fund all the 45's pressed up, then numbers (many times) would be quite low. 

 

My brains failing these days but I know some 45 releases were just marketed in one city. I recall a major label release from around 1970 that was only sent out to DJ's & then sold in the Baltimore area (someone must recall which 45 this was). The 45 label's even stated that it was only being made available in that city I seem to recall. 

  On 29/01/2014 at 02:05, Roburt said:

Most major labels almost always pressed up predetermined numbers of each 45 and unless it was quickly withdrawn (due to dispute with artist or pressing fault), then many 100's of copies would have been manufactured & sent to distributors. BUT for lots of little labels, cash was always short. So demo copies would only be sent out to a few local radio stns / DJ's.

Even issues would many times be scarce as the cash wasn't available to put out loads of copies of each release.

Cleveland based Way Out Records had their own studio, so cut 100's & 100's of tracks. They would then press up limited copies of 45's featuring some of the tracks laid down. If they landed a national distribution deal (as they did with Atlantic & then MGM) then Way Out stuff (& a few of the organisations sub-label releases) would be made available in quantity. But if they had to fund all the 45's pressed up, then numbers (many times) would be quite low. 

 

My brains failing these days but I know some 45 releases were just marketed in one city. I recall a major label release from around 1970 that was only sent out to DJ's & then sold in the Baltimore area (someone must recall which 45 this was). The 45 label's even stated that it was only being made available in that city I seem to recall.

Roburt

Not sure if your reply agreed with me or not. I was saying that it was not a standard record company process to manufacture issue copies for lesser artists only after the record had got good radio plays from the demo copies. I think your first paragraph agrees with this.

But are you saying that Way Out or other small labels never pressed issue copies unless radio stations played the record,as was stated in the first post and is the "fact" that explains lack of issue copies for some records.

As you say, small companies had limited finance but from my experience of issuing singles in the 70s the cost of having 1000 copies pressed was not much more than a few hundred. The upfront cost of paying an advance to the owner then having the record mastered and stampers made was a considerable amount. From memory I think mastering alone was about £65 which for 500 copies was 13p each , which meant that a profit for a run of less than 500 was just about impossible. Maybe cost structures in the US were different, do you have any figures?

Has any of the unissued Way Out recordings come out on CD or have the tapes been lost?

Rick

As a general rule of thumb most majors would have pressed up the issue stock at the same time as the demos. The overly optimistic idea was that all records would get played and released to the public.....it was only when they failed to take off that the issues were binned / left on the shelf. Remember record production was very cheap in the 60s and early 70s....the notion of an RCA or a Columbia pressing up demos and then going back a month later and ordering the issues from their pressing plants doesn't make sense. They'd have to reset the plates run off test  / quality control copies all over again etc.

 

When John talks about records being promoted in one area only this is also true, Scepter was a classic for that, especially in the rock field and New Jersey.

  On 29/01/2014 at 22:50, Rick Cooper said:

As you say, small companies had limited finance but from my experience of issuing singles in the 70s the cost of having 1000 copies pressed was not much more than a few hundred ...... Maybe cost structures in the US were different, do you have any figures?

Has any of the unissued Way Out recordings come out on CD or have the tapes been lost?

Rick

Don't have any figures on US pressing costs back in the day I'm afraid. But lots of different business decisions effected how many of a particular 45 would be pressed up.

Guys with little musical talent but money would fund some releases (Way Out's 'Big Jim' label was funded by NFL star Jim Brown for instance). Way Out & their studio was mainly a front for the numbers racket, so it was kept busy to mask the coming & goings of non-musical people. So making recordings was the main task there, no releasing them.

Obviously the singers, musicians, producers, engineer wanted their work to escape but many times what they wanted was not really that important.

With some of their releases, they were after landing an outside licensing deal. So having some 45's out there was important, but pressing up 100's of copies to supply record shops with stock sometimes wasn't the main priority. Many Way Out releases refer to an associated LP (track taken from LP #100x or whatever) but the LP's never actually existed as the cash wasn't available to press up copies.

Way Out even rebadged some recordings (changing the artist names) and sold them on to labels such as Delite.

As Steve said, it was common to press up both issues & demos at the same time (on the same pressing run, just changing the labels used mid way through), so most times (even with a limited press run) both demos & issues exist. An established local label (such as Way Out) would have pull with a pressing plant they commonly used & could get short runs of 45's done cheap especially if the plant had machines standing idle. Don't believe there was any STANDARD TEMPLATE for how many copies were pressed up & how much they cost the label. 

 

Luckily with Way Out stuff, Numero are on the case and a comprehensive release is due out soon. Ady got involved with the guy who claimed to own the rights to the catalogue some years back & even visited the studio where all the old master tapes were stored ..... but the guy was flaky & his 'right of ownership' was also a bit shaky, so Ady / Kent did the right thing then and walked away.

Edited January 30, 201411 yr by Roburt

The Exceptionals "Unlucky Girl" on GRT was another rebadged (& reworked) Way Out recording. The studio time to update the original recording was available and they them marketed the 'updated version' and landed an outside deal (which no doubt generated an up-front licensing fee). That song ("Unlucky Girl") was also shopped around to outside artists (Betty Everett) to try to generate cash from yet another source.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zn8CIqBRBK8

 

Some Bobby Wade tracks were licensed for release by Deluxe and his contract was (I believe) eventually 'sold' onto Deluxe.

 

The So Jamm label was one of Way Out's later concerns and I don't believe any of the 45's that escaped under that logo exist in quantity (how many copies of the Marilyn Smith 45 have surfaced ?).  

Edited January 30, 201411 yr by Roburt

  On 29/01/2014 at 02:05, Roburt said:

 

My brains failing these days but I know some 45 releases were just marketed in one city. I recall a major label release from around 1970 that was only sent out to DJ's & then sold in the Baltimore area (someone must recall which 45 this was). The 45 label's even stated that it was only being made available in that city I seem to recall.

Are you thinking of that Janus 45 by the Inclinations?

I think that states that it's for release in Baltimore only.

Yes I'm sure that's the one John. Many thanks.

 

  On 30/01/2014 at 12:18, Roburt said:

Roburt, on 30 Jan 2014 - 12:18 PM, said:

Don't have any figures on US pressing costs back in the day I'm afraid. But lots of different business decisions effected how many of a particular 45 would be pressed up.
..... An established local label would have pull with a pressing plant they commonly used and could get short runs of 45's done cheap especially if the plant had machines standing idle. Don't believe there was any STANDARD TEMPLATE for how many copies were pressed up and how much they cost the label.

I'm sure someone here (Robb K or Boba) must have discussed with one of their contacts what ' typical' pressing costs for small runs of a particular 45 would have been in the US back in the 60's.

. . . . . HOWEVER . . . . . . the costs of running a recording session in a local studio that wasn't equipped with the latest equipment could be very low. I have an invoice for a gospel session (so the group turned up ready to cut with their own musical director and band) staged at a 'standard' St Louis studio in 1966. The studio hired itself out for $25 an hour !!!
45 minutes of studio time + the actual tape containing the tracks laid down in that time cost the group leader just over $26 (including tax).
That worked out at the equivalent of less than ten quid to lay down around 7 or 8 tracks (assuming one take on each song and little down time because of mistakes).
Of course, tracks on the tape then had to be mastered and the like to allow records to be pressed up but the cost of the actual recording session for an indie label could be peanuts.
... ALSO .... many times a local label could negotiate studio session time without any advance payment. The label guys would promise to pay the session costs once the 45's were pressed up and selling in the shops (of course, many times they never actually got around to paying the bill, so the master tapes remained in the studio's tape vaults with the artist / label owners never actually gaining possession of them).

Edited February 7, 201411 yr by Roburt