Ovo Debate - The Motown 7S Box Set

[Sunnysoul]

The old original vinyl only debate came up in conversation the other day  in the context of the recently issued Motown 7s Box Set.

 

The consensus from the discussion appeared to be that ,  if playing at an ovo event   ,   it would be unacceptable to play the following discs from the box set :

 

Marvin Gaye "Love Starved' :  the original release being the limited picture sleeve promotional 7" issue from 1994.

 

Spinners "What More" :  the original release being on the From The Vaults LP 1979.

 

Barbara McNair  "It Happens Everytime" : the original release being from the Real Barbara McNair LP 1968 . 

 

Isley Brothers "My Love" :   originally released on Music For Pleasure LP early 70's.

 

Frank Wilson "Do I Love You" :   obviously two  known Soul original 45s , otherwise the first UK issue from the late 70's.

 

Originals  "Suspicion"  : a few original acetates known to exist, otherwise the first legitimate 7" 45 release of this would appear to be the Stardust issue unless one is of the view that some or all of the Stardust releases are not legitimately licensed?

 

 

 

[TOAD]

I didn't buy it for those,just for the four tops and Kim Weston

[davidwapples]

Its a weird scene that accepts you playing one side of a record but will take you to task for pkaying the other

Had it myself with the porgy and the monarchs beige release

[Patto]

At least you've got the first legit copy of the Temptations assuming you have one of the few that don't skip or jump

[Benji]

Originals  "Suspicion"  : a few original acetates known to exist, otherwise the first legitimate 7" 45 release of this would appear to be the Stardust issue unless one is of the view that some or all of the Stardust releases are not legitimately licensed?

 

I seriously challenge everyone to prove that Stardust was a legitimate label.

[Phild]

My thoughts:

 

Marvin Gaye "Love Starved' :  the original release being the limited picture sleeve promotional 7" issue from 1994. The box set single is the first legitimate UK 7" release

 

Spinners "What More" :  the original release being on the From The Vaults LP 1979. The box set single is the first legitimate UK 7" release

 

Barbara McNair  "It Happens Everytime" : the original release being from the Real Barbara McNair LP 1968 .  The box set single is the first legitimate UK 7" release

 

Isley Brothers "My Love" :   originally released on Music For Pleasure LP early 70's. The box set single is the first legitimate UK 7" release

 

Frank Wilson "Do I Love You" :   obviously two  known Soul original 45s , otherwise the first UK issue from the late 70's. - Agreed

 

Originals  "Suspicion"  : a few original acetates known to exist, otherwise the first legitimate 7" 45 release of this would appear to be the Stardust issue unless one is of the view that some or all of the Stardust releases are not legitimately licensed? The box set single is the first legitimate UK 7" release. The Stardust release is illegitimate

[Sunnysoul]

My thoughts:

 

Marvin Gaye "Love Starved' :  the original release being the limited picture sleeve promotional 7" issue from 1994. The box set single is the first legitimate UK 7" release

 

Spinners "What More" :  the original release being on the From The Vaults LP 1979. The box set single is the first legitimate UK 7" release

 

Barbara McNair  "It Happens Everytime" : the original release being from the Real Barbara McNair LP 1968 .  The box set single is the first legitimate UK 7" release

 

Isley Brothers "My Love" :   originally released on Music For Pleasure LP early 70's. The box set single is the first legitimate UK 7" release

 

Frank Wilson "Do I Love You" :   obviously two  known Soul original 45s , otherwise the first UK issue from the late 70's. - Agreed

 

Originals  "Suspicion"  : a few original acetates known to exist, otherwise the first legitimate 7" 45 release of this would appear to be the Stardust issue unless one is of the view that some or all of the Stardust releases are not legitimately licensed? The box set single is the first legitimate UK 7" release. The Stardust release is illegitimate

 

Yes but don't the proponents of ovo require some element of contemporaneity as far as later issues go in order to make them acceptable to play, the notable exception probably being Frank Wilson. This Motown box set has come almost 20 years after the Marvin Gaye and the Originals (if legitimate) were issued and even longer in the case of the others ....

 

Incidentally ,  it would be interesting if anyone could provide any firm evidence that Stardust releases are not legally licensed.

[Chalky]

Yes but don't the proponents of ovo require some element of contemporaneity as far as later issues go in order to make them acceptable to play, the notable exception probably being Frank Wilson. This Motown box set has come almost 20 years after the Marvin Gaye and the Originals (if legitimate) were issued and even longer in the case of the others ....

 

Incidentally ,  it would be interesting if anyone could provide any firm evidence that Stardust releases are not legally licensed.

 

 

I don't know anyone who believes the Stardust release to be legitimate unless they need justification to play it in one of their sets?  I doubt you would get many bookings from the OVO brigade playing Stardust 45's.

[Sunnysoul]

I seriously challenge everyone to prove that Stardust was a legitimate label.

 

Surely the onus is on the naysayers to prove that Stardust isn't legitimate.

[Phild]

Yes but don't the proponents of ovo require some element of contemporaneity as far as later issues go in order to make them acceptable to play, the notable exception probably being Frank Wilson. This Motown box set has come almost 20 years after the Marvin Gaye and the Originals (if legitimate) were issued and even longer in the case of the others ....

 

Incidentally ,  it would be interesting if anyone could provide any firm evidence that Stardust releases are not legally licensed.

 

Many records are only released years after they were recorded. OVO does not require contemporaneity, simply the fact that it is a legitimately licensed release.

[Sunnysoul]

I don't know anyone who believes the Stardust release to be legitimate unless they need justification to play it in one of their sets?  I doubt you would get many bookings from the OVO brigade playing Stardust 45's.

 

Would make things interesting though if the owners of Stardust came out and provided some proof that their operations were completely legal. 

 

One curious thing about Stardust; if they were an illegal operation why would they put their contact and address details on their label ?   It's like putting out the welcome mat to the lawyers and legal process servers of the major labels and rights owners.

Edited December 30, 2013 by sunnysoul

[Guest Andy Kempster]

Thank god and phild for a sensible answer.

STOP THE MADNESS

[Benji]

Many records are only released years after they were recorded. OVO does not require contemporaneity, simply the fact that it is a legitimately licensed release.

 

This applies only to previously unissued things. A 2013 7" release of a 1968 LP track isn't OVO.

[Sunnysoul]

Many records are only released years after they were recorded. OVO does not require contemporaneity, simply the fact that it is a legitimately licensed release.

 

On that logic, most of the standard Kent sevens of reissued classics would be acceptable to play, wouldn't they?

[Chalky]

On that logic, most of the standard Kent sevens of reissued classics would be acceptable to play, wouldn't they?

 

If it is unissued then I and many like me don't have a problem with them, if there is an original format out here then it would be that that would take preference.  Again you wouldn't get many booking s playing reissues by the OVO brigade.

 

Edited December 30, 2013 by chalky

[Patto]

On that logic, most of the standard Kent sevens of reissued classics would be acceptable to play, wouldn't they?

No because im pretty sure Phil is refering to tracks that have never been previously released.The Kent ones you refere to are reissues of classics that have have already been originally released.Kent have put out some great previously unissued stuff which would be ok to play out.

[Sunnysoul]

If it is unissued then I or many like me don't have a problem with them, if there is an original format pout here then it would be that that would take preference.  Again you wouldn't get many booking s playing reissues by the OVO brigade.

Agreed but Phil seems to be discounting the contemporaneity factor by saying "if it's the first time on a seven in the UK, then it's OK".

[Sunnysoul]

No because im pretty sure Phil is refering to tracks that have never been previously released.The Kent ones you refere to are reissues of classics that have have already been originally released.Kent have put out some great previously unissued stuff which would be ok to play out.

Yes but as noted on the intial posting, Marvin Gaye, Spinners, Barbara McNair and Isley Brothers have all had previous releases on 45 or LP.

Edited December 30, 2013 by sunnysoul

[Phild]

Yes but as noted on the intial posting, Marvin Gaye, Spinners, Barbara McNair and Isley Brothers have all had previous releases on 45 or LP.

 

I refer the honourable gentleman to my previous answer.

 

many tracks were first released on an album, and then had a release on a 45. using that logic, the Spinners, Isleys tracks etc are OK to play out. the Frank Wilson (whilst still a bona fide release) isn't as OK to play out,  as a legitimate 45 release pre-dates it.

 

Let's not forget many original british releases even in the 60's were often several years after the US release, and were released only to cater for demand spawned by the embryonic soul scene.

[Guest Bearsy]

Venues where these tunes could possibly be played the djs and punters generally don't give a shit about OVO so to me it matters not if they are 1st release or boots they will play them anyway.  

 

The ideal scenario for me is that you could have an original and then the issue of first press etc etc and local and national presses.  If there are done legit then hopefully someone that had something to with it gets some kind of reward wether that be financially or publicity.  

I think the issue of boots or OVO is that the boots are pressed purely by someone wanting to make some money with no regarded to artists producers and definitely. It giving a poor that the scene will then be riddled with them with every man and his dog owning a copy and hence they either become overplayed and lose their little something they had about them or the exclusivity of having to make an effort and get of your arse to here certain djs only play them and hence loads of play time let in them.

 

this collection wasn't made with the Northern Soul scene in mind and then giving a few boring djs some kind of credibility that they can now oaky a few tunes that are legit they was made purely to make money as a lot of soul collectors will buy them up. 

 

I won't be buying them 

[Guest CapitolSC]

Loads of people have LP tracks cut up as its a chore lugging around  a box of 45s and LPs at the same time

so don't see a problem playing them if you want to.

 

And anyways as Phil said its the first time on 45 apart from the Marvin which was a give-away and Frank Wilson

 

 

Al H

[Guest Matt Male]

I dunno why this always goes round and round. The question isn't 'is it a legit release' the question is (as Chalky rightly alluded to earlier) 'is there an original release' if the answer is yes, then go and buy it, otherwise don't play it.

 

If on the other hand you don't care about playing ovo then surely anything is open to play, don't get hung up on whether it's a reissue, LP track etc...

 

Make a choice.

 

Simples.

[Guest Matt Male]

Agreed but Phil seems to be discounting the contemporaneity factor by saying "if it's the first time on a seven in the UK, then it's OK".

 

 

Because as Phil rightly said contemporaneity isn't a factor. To be honest i don't know where you get the idea that releases have to be contemporaneous, I've never heard anyone say that. A Kent release of an unissued track 40 years after recorded, if it's the first issue, is perfectly acceptable (in my opinion).

[Godzilla]

Loads of people have LP tracks cut up as its a chore lugging around  a box of 45s and LPs at the same time

 

Maybe these people could learn to drive. Or get a bus....

[Pete S]

Maybe these people could learn to drive. Or get a bus....

 

or a life

[MotownDave]

re: suspicion , can any one think of any other motown recorded group & song from motown's own archive being released by another company / record label legitimately ? I know of plenty of songs recorded by other artists and maybe some recording under pseudonyms (connie clark )etc.

[Guest CapitolSC]

or a life

Living in London i don't need to drive

Great public transport for that and a Cab home

just in case someone tries to mug me 

 

And I've got a great life thanks very much Pete

but you knew that anyway

 

Appy new year to you all from London

 

Al H 

[Pete S]

Living in London i don't need to drive

Great public transport for that and a Cab home

just in case someone tries to mug me 

 

And I've got a great life thanks very much Pete

but you knew that anyway

 

Appy new year to you all from London

 

Al H 

 

The comment was really aimed at those who would play out one side of a record but not play the other for fear of offending - who exactly?

Step back and look at how ridiculous this whole argument is - if it's the first time on a 7" in the UK, f*cking play it.

[Godzilla]

..and my comment was just a gentle dig about the oft heard cliche regarding the huge effort involved in carrying LPs. Didn't realise that transport was an issue as deadly serious as original vinyl

[Guest CapitolSC]

Too right Pete

but i bet it will still drone on and on and on 

 

Anyways I've gotta sort the DJ box out for Nutty New year

Now what shall i play My Temptations doesn't jump or will it be Stormy LOL 

 

Al H 

[Chalky]

..and my comment was just a gentle dig about the oft heard cliche regarding the huge effort involved in carrying LPs. Didn't realise that transport was an issue as deadly serious as original vinyl

 

It's a ridiculous argument really, a messenger bag with 20 Lps is nothing and you could always buy one of the trolley bags.

 

Too right Pete

but i bet it will still drone on and on and on 

 

Anyways I've gotta sort the DJ box out for Nutty New year

Now what shall i play My Temptations doesn't jump or will it be Stormy LOL 

 

Al H 

 

We should have a new years resolution to ban ovo topics, getting ridiculous.  

 

The vast majority of us know where we are going, what the DJ's will be playing and really couldn't care less what others think.

 

Edited December 30, 2013 by chalky

[kevinsoulman]

LIKE A LONG STANDING SCENE ATTENDEE BUDDY OF MINE SAYS THE SOONER THE SOUNDS ARE ON HARD DRIVES THE SOONER DJ'S CAN PLAY ALL REQUESTS

 

IT DOES NOT TAKE O V O TO MAKE A GOOD D J .

 

THOUGH I BELIEVE IN ORIGINAL OR COSHER RE RELEASE  45'S MESELF

 

KEV

[Garswood]

     

[barney]

LIKE A LONG STANDING SCENE ATTENDEE BUDDY OF MINE SAYS THE SOONER THE SOUNDS ARE ON HARD DRIVES THE SOONER DJ'S CAN PLAY ALL REQUESTS

 

IT DOES NOT TAKE O V O TO MAKE A GOOD D J .

 

THOUGH I BELIEVE IN ORIGINAL OR COSHER RE RELEASE  45'S MESELF

 

KEV

[Guest penny]

LIKE A LONG STANDING SCENE ATTENDEE BUDDY OF MINE SAYS THE SOONER THE SOUNDS ARE ON HARD DRIVES THE SOONER DJ'S CAN PLAY ALL REQUESTS

 

IT DOES NOT TAKE O V O TO MAKE A GOOD D J .

 

THOUGH I BELIEVE IN ORIGINAL OR COSHER RE RELEASE  45'S MESELF

 

KEV

so when all the tracks are conveniently condensed to hard drives, who will dj? Why one person over another? Maybe the computer could just do it on its own?

if nothing else, the ovo rule reduces the pool of potential djs from everyone to nearly everyone...narrows it down a bit

[Cunnie]

Heard a bloke the other night played Barbara McNair twice but didn't play Marvin Gaye at all

[Steve S 60]

Heard a bloke the other night played Barbara McNair twice but didn't play Marvin Gaye at all

 

He must have skipped the Temptations.

[Guest Andy Kempster]

Heard a bloke the other night played Barbara McNair twice but didn't play Marvin Gaye at all

perhaps he got a set with Marvin missing or more likely bought one of the spare Barbara mcnairs off eBay

[Frankie Crocker]

I refer the honourable gentleman to my previous answer.

 

many tracks were first released on an album, and then had a release on a 45. using that logic, the Spinners, Isleys tracks etc are OK to play out. the Frank Wilson (whilst still a bona fide release) isn't as OK to play out,  as a legitimate 45 release pre-dates it.

Phil, this would be tantamount to a complete ban on Frank Wilson being spun! Now, some would say 'fine, I'm bloody sick of the thing' but others would say 'that's a fine tune, don't hear that one played often'. Given that Frank Wilson's song has been used for adverts, TV background music etc, surely it would be OK to play out at any venue including OVO fortresses? Perhaps the future lies in DJ's sticking white labels on the records to cover up the credits, a neo-cover up phase that keeps the purists and couldn't-care-less brigade happy?

[Guest Bri C]

I don't have a problem with dj's and punters who don't care what a tune is played on, these dj's should save their backs carting heavy vinyl about and use a computer or CDs .

[Guest Bearsy]

I've got a pocket full of pretty green I'm gonna put it in the fruit machine gonna play all the records on the hit parade cos we don't need any djs cos we can all just press a button and have our own fave tracks played no matter what anyone else thinks of them cos its not a dj that makes a set its the punters cos they paid they money they want to hear what they want so bolox to anyone that don't like my choice you can wait you turn and everyone goes home happy and the man that owns the jukebox has made a killing and everyone is happy.

Pretty Green Soul Club coming your way soon, free entry just bring plenty of change......

[Wiggyflat]

Haven't the djs who have Suspicion,LSH,Your Love,Frank Wilson etc got them on repros or boots already?.They haven't got the cash or wheeled and dealed to get a good original collection over the years so are they going to fork out the money for this.Barbara Macnair wouldn't get plays and most obvious Tamla stuff will be in their boxes anyway.If I'm wrong I can see this advert in a few years....Northern Soul Night dj selling up.Loads of great records on Casino Classics,Destiny,Spark etc for sale.Tamla box set for sale all mint apart from Suspicion vg only and Frank Wilson is missing.Bargain at 300 quid.

Edited January 5, 2014 by wiggyflat

[Diddy Morgan]

black tamla motown 2nd issues have been played for donkeys years and no one seemed that bothered!!

[barney]

Haven't the djs who have Suspicion,LSH,Your Love,Frank Wilson etc got them on repros or boots already?.They haven't got the cash or wheeled and dealed to get a good original collection over the years so are they going to fork out the money for this.Barbara Macnair wouldn't get plays and most obvious Tamla stuff will be in their boxes anyway.If I'm wrong I can see this advert in a few years....Northern Soul Night dj selling up.Loads of great records on Casino Classics,Destiny,Spark etc for sale.Tamla box set for sale all mint apart from Suspicion vg only and Frank Wilson is missing.Bargain at 300 quid.

well if I had a collection mine would be up for sale now especially if it was as,. so many say part of their pension fund

[Wiggyflat]

black tamla motown 2nd issues have been played for donkeys years and no one seemed that bothered!!

To tell you the truth its a sorry state of affairs if you are going to northern soul events and hearing basic Tamla..Shouldn't LSH,Suspicion,DILY,Your Love be taking a well earned rest.They have been totally hammered for years all over the UK.It's only the born again KTF KOKO add two sprinkles of Salt And Pepper and a Stardust collection deejays who play this stuff.As for Be Young Be Foolish Be Happy,Tell Me Its just A Rumour,Baby I Need Your Loving ,Johnny Johnson,Chairmen of the Board tc etc..this is primary school entry level stuff before discovering ric Tic and Mirwood.

[Mark Bicknell]

What does OVO mean?????????????????????????? lol

[Pete S]

What does OVO mean?????????????????????????? lol

 

 

What is OVO?   OVO is "Obviously"

   OVO Definition / OVO Means The definition of OVO is "Obviously"

   The Meaning of OVO OVO means "Obviously"

  So now you know - OVO means "Obviously" - don't thank us. YW! 

 

 

Web definitions

1. OVO is the soundtrack to the Millennium Dome Show in London that was composed by Peter Gabriel. It was his eleventh album overall. It was released on 12 June 2000 and features guest vocals by Neneh Cherry, Rasco, Richie Havens, Elizabeth Fraser and Paul Buchanan. ...

Edited January 5, 2014 by Pete S

[Frankie Crocker]

Perhaps the scene needs Motown Nights to cater for the oldies crowd and those new to the music? Then it wouldn't matter so much about the format. The Wigan Motown sessions worked a treat so surely there are openings for savvy promoters to diversify...

[ricticman]

I keep dipping in and out of this thread, but probably haven't gone thro every post line by line, so hope I not just repeating an earlier post here....

 

....but I am not getting what the issue is here. At all.

 

I've explained my view, on this before. But also stressed I don't want to argue with anyone about rights and wrongs. All I'm interested in is explain to anyone what I think, if of course they're interested, or want to know.

 

I don't ever want to ' convert ' or persuade anyone. Equally, I'm never going to budge in my view and approach.

 

Why doesn't everyone leave it at that ? Announce what your policy is, if anyone challenges you explain why you will / won't play Frank Wilson, but basically let the boys and girls who attend soul events make their own minds up. 

 

[ a.k.a.   'live and let live ' etc etc ( and loads of other clichés) ]

 

Happy New Year

 

pete

[Guest Ivor Jones]

Its all very tragic really isn't it….When tracks of this magnitude finally get legally released in the format that everyone wants them on you get some self appointed scene policemen holding up a red card…..

 Mr Searling has done a fantastic job with this,so many brilliant tracks. Nicely packaged. Whats not to like ?Who now,in all honesty, would rather play these from MFP LPs or stardust pressings rather than a legally issued,"straight from the master tapes" 45 ? Dementia has started already on the Northern scene it seems….

Who amongst us is lucky enough to hold original acetates etc of these tracks anyway ? Im glad they've been issued, they're just too good not to be.