Ray Agee - I'm Losing Again/ Hard Loving Woman On Cd?

[barney]

its a decent record but don't think I would splash a few k on it

[barney]

When's back in the day? I joined this party in 78 and it seemed the respected DJs played (primarily) OVO.  To understand your perspective a bit more, when do you see dealers and collectors getting established? They've always been there whilst I've been about I think.

back in the day lads and lasses from my neck of the woods travelled to a place in stoke and managed to bring copies /tapes of the music played there and thay used to play them at the youth club .I was about 16 at the time and some folk used to get their records from a shop in Sheffield called violet mays or from Nottingham believe it was called selecta disc and that's when I first started on the scene I did buy a few records but decided I had better things to blow my brass on namely lambrettas .,didn't see many dealers at sou;l do,s back then before WC

 

I will apologise for being old though

Edited December 28, 2013 by barney

[Guest Byrney]

 No need to apologise, it's out of your control.

 

So the dealer / collector conspiracy as you describe below kicks off around the opening of t'casino?

 

" and that if anything the ovo policy adopted by some on here has nowt to do with ethics its more about ensuring that those who have the money or amassed their collections of originals can monopolise the scene and exclude others especially young people and women who do not have the disposable income that some fortunate people have"

 

have you ever considered another view, that perhaps DJs / Collectors and those devils the dealers at this point in time wanted to dig deeper and sourced copies from the USA to drive forward a progressive scene based on new / underplayed records?

 

primarily OVO has drove the real Northern Scene - think Butch, Searling, Curtis etc. 

 

however I get that the nostalgia scene wouldn't give a monkeys as why would they? In the main the small number of tunes they look back to are available on boots so job done, pack the dance floor at the local welfare.

 

But if you want to follow the real Northern ethic - underplayed or new discoveries these are in the main going to be OVO.

 

Personally I've no problem with people owning boots (pointless though as why not have them on MP3) and if you DJ with them at a nostalgia night then that's no skin off my nose as it's a counterfeit scene, so why not counterfeit records. 

[Quinvy]

"Back in the day" it didn't matter that people taped and bootlegged the big tunes. The dj's just played some fresh tunes and discarded the "ruined" records. The fresh tunes have long since dried up, and if you can get excited about going out every weekend and hearing the same records over and over again then good luck to you.

[Markw]

Hi Quinvy, I find this comment interesting, why are you so against re-issues? Do you think the only people who should be able to appreciate or 'play out' these records should be the few people who are lucky enough to be able to afford to lay out hundreds or thousands of pounds on a record? What about all the people to don't have that kind of money but still have the passion for the music. Try to look at the world beyond the end of your record box buddy, music is for everyone and it's important to 'spread the word', I don't know how many young people are getting into your scene just now but the 50's scene needs the next generation of collectors and enthusiasts to come through pronto and in my experience the best way to achieve that is to let them access great 45's that they could otherwise not afford at a fraction of what an original may cost. It's also part of the mystique of the 45 to see it on an original label, albeit an obvious copy, this is educational for those who want to learn but don't have the finance. As for the re-issues affecting the price, this is simply not true, if anything the prices will rise as more people get to hear and want to own original copies of the 45's. If the only reason you like original records is because of the money they command or because no none else owns a copy I think you may need to take a few steps back and have a good long hard think about, well, everything really. Imagine if no one was able to run prints of Salvador Dali paintings and only the person who owned the original could gaze at the beauty of his work, or a Rembrandt........? Music is a gift and should be shared as such!

It is also a mis-conception that the people who issue these 45's 'make millions', do you have any idea about the production costs of pressing 500x 45's is these days? People press these records as enthusiasts for other (less wealthy) enthusiasts.

I would also add the following quote - 

"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free and good men die like dogs. There is also a downside" -  Hunter S. Thompson

Thank you so much for clarifying and setting us all straight, Mr "Stompingsevens". There was me thinking that the bootleggers were just in it to make a quick turn when all along they were actually providing a public service and operating a social enterprise by sharing this music amongst us all, introducing it to the poor and needy, providing affordable records to those in need, spreading the gospel of this great music for the benefit of society and all the time doing it for the pure altruism and not-for-profit (well, a little bit maybe, "to cover my expenses, my dear.........")

 

Sanctimonious and specious twaddle.

Edited December 28, 2013 by markw

[Guest penny]

I'm not a DJ, I just like good music and this is not an argument it's just ua few observations.

I dont want to get into the whole debate again, but my 'observations' boil down to this:

Fake things, whether it's clothes, records or stone cladding, are just crap.

Why on earth does the music have to be 'spread' by the release of pretend old records? This isnt the 70s, when the normal format was vinyl.

We have the luxury and convenience of all this digital technology, youtube etc. And you need to 'spread the word' on expensive pieces of outdated plastic. Surely more people listen to youtube then buy vinyl.

you are free, it seems, to make your tacky superfluous products, but dont pretend that you dont do it for the lifestyle / money for your self, or that the market for them isn't entirely people who want to be djs or record collectors but cant be arsed to put any effort into it.

If it wasnt for elitist djs and collectors fueling the second hand record market, there wouldnt be tracks to bootleg, and there wouldnt be a market to flog them to. You rely on the same elitism that you're supposedly reacting against, to provide you material and demand.

but as quinvy says, true, it doesnt effect the collectors or the prices but the potential audience, who now dont go to a good r&b or soul night because there's a crap one in their local playing bootlegs, years behind the good djs in terms if knowledge and material.

WHen I started the pow wow club, you could get hardly anything we played on any sort of reissue, you had to go to an authentic club run by THE most passionate collectors and enthusiasts to hear that stuff.

you're probably saying that that's my tough shit, but not just mine, everyone's - cos clubs like that presented the music better and broke new tracks - the problem with fake, parasitic stuff is that it superficially looks the same, but doesnt progress the same, contribute as much.

Nearly all my sets from back then have now been bootlegged, please tell me then what has been gained for this fantastic music?

And besides all that ideological stuff, which I accept maybe doesnt mean much to some people ; you're selling something that isnt yours to sell.

Mik parry

Edited December 28, 2013 by penny

[Guest Bearsy]

back in the day lads and lasses from my neck of the woods travelled to a place in stoke and managed to bring copies /tapes of the music played there and thay used to play them at the youth club .I was about 16 at the time and some folk used to get their records from a shop in Sheffield called violet mays or from Nottingham believe it was called selecta disc and that's when I first started on the scene I did buy a few records but decided I had better things to blow my brass on namely lambrettas .,didn't see many dealers at sou;l do,s back then before WC

 

I will apologise for being old though

 

Barney are you an Italian Lammie man or would an Indian or Vietnamese do you ?  One of my mates questioned my mentality when it come to what I spend on tunes and yet he wouldn't have anything other than a REAL Lammie in his words lol.  You still ride ?

 

 

[Guest Bearsy]

 

 No need to apologise, it's out of your control.

 

So the dealer / collector conspiracy as you describe below kicks off around the opening of t'casino?

 

" and that if anything the ovo policy adopted by some on here has nowt to do with ethics its more about ensuring that those who have the money or amassed their collections of originals can monopolise the scene and exclude others especially young people and women who do not have the disposable income that some fortunate people have"

 

have you ever considered another view, that perhaps DJs / Collectors and those devils the dealers at this point in time wanted to dig deeper and sourced copies from the USA to drive forward a progressive scene based on new / underplayed records?

 

primarily OVO has drove the real Northern Scene - think Butch, Searling, Curtis etc. 

 

however I get that the nostalgia scene wouldn't give a monkeys as why would they? In the main the small number of tunes they look back to are available on boots so job done, pack the dance floor at the local welfare.

 

But if you want to follow the real Northern ethic - underplayed or new discoveries these are in the main going to be OVO.

 

Personally I've no problem with people owning boots (pointless though as why not have them on MP3) and if you DJ with them at a nostalgia night then that's no skin off my nose as it's a counterfeit scene, so why not counterfeit records. 

 

 

But you can't pay with Monopoly money on the door though 

[Guest Bearsy]

Thank you so much for clarifying and setting us all straight, Mr "Stompingsevens". There was me thinking that the bootleggers were just in it to make a quick turn when all along they were actually providing a public service and operating a social enterprise by sharing this music amongst us all, introducing it to the poor and needy, providing affordable records to those in need, spreading the gospel of this great music for the benefit of society and all the time doing it for the pure altruism and not-for-profit (well, a little bit maybe, "to cover my expenses, my dear.........")

 

Sanctimonious and specious twaddle.

I have run out of likes 

[Markw]

Glad to see you're on the mend Bearsy mate.

[Guest Bearsy]

Glad to see you're on the mend Bearsy mate.

Cheers Mark   will be on here a lot more as sofa bound and bored 

[barney]

 

have got 2 lambrettas a series 2 and a series 3  both Italian and consider myself lucky in owning these , but if they would have been out of my reach I would have had no qualms about buying a curry burner ,

oh and for the record I do not approve or condone the playing of  unlawfull so called bootleg records, but see nothing wrong with legitimate re issues , cd,s or even payed for downloads . 

 

Edited December 28, 2013 by barney

[barney]

I dont want to get into the whole debate again, but my 'observations' boil down to this:

Fake things, whether it's clothes, records or stone cladding, are just crap.

Why on earth does the music have to be 'spread' by the release of pretend old records? This isnt the 70s, when the normal format was vinyl.

We have the luxury and convenience of all this digital technology, youtube etc. And you need to 'spread the word' on expensive pieces of outdated plastic. Surely more people listen to youtube then buy vinyl.

you are free, it seems, to make your tacky superfluous products, but dont pretend that you dont do it for the lifestyle / money for your self, or that the market for them isn't entirely people who want to be djs or record collectors but cant be arsed to put any effort into it.

If it wasnt for elitist djs and collectors fueling the second hand record market, there wouldnt be tracks to bootleg, and there wouldnt be a market to flog them to. You rely on the same elitism that you're supposedly reacting against, to provide you material and demand.

but as quinvy says, true, it doesnt effect the collectors or the prices but the potential audience, who now dont go to a good r&b or soul night because there's a crap one in their local playing bootlegs, years behind the good djs in terms if knowledge and material.

WHen I started the pow wow club, you could get hardly anything we played on any sort of reissue, you had to go to an authentic club run by THE most passionate collectors and enthusiasts to hear that stuff.

you're probably saying that that's my tough shit, but not just mine, everyone's - cos clubs like that presented the music better and broke new tracks - the problem with fake, parasitic stuff is that it superficially looks the same, but doesnt progress the same, contribute as much.

Nearly all my sets from back then have now been bootlegged, please tell me then what has been gained for this fantastic music?

And besides all that ideological stuff, which I accept maybe doesnt mean much to some people ; you're selling something that isnt yours to sell.

Mik parry

suppose you cant get the internet over your way then

oh and please read my comment highlighted in red on post 112

Edited December 28, 2013 by barney

[Marc Forrest]

never wrong marc....saw it with my own eyes..which i tend to believe..whether it was fraud is another matter, you talk rubbish if you say its never been on the world wide web..brownie had one for sale also on his auctions .............

you may have seen one of their other two whale releases, or your memory is playing tricks on you. whatever the case, except for that one fraud listing there hasnt been a real one up for sale on ebay. which equals there hasnt been one on ebay! everything else indeed is rubbish and just another myth. wether timmie brown had one in his auction I dont remember seeing it but I heavily doubt it. I'll ask him.

[Dave Pinch]

you may have seen one of their other two whale releases, or your memory is playing tricks on you. whatever the case, except for that one fraud listing there hasnt been a real one up for sale on ebay. which equals there hasnt been one on ebay! everything else indeed is rubbish and just another myth. wether timmie brown had one in his auction I dont remember seeing it but I heavily doubt it. I'll ask him.

sorry marc..i`m not scenile and i dont smoke anything.brownie defo had it on his auction a couple of years ago........and i dont believe for one minute youre the all seeing eye.sorry bud

[Quinvy]

How many known copies are there?

[Cunnie]

Going out tonight to Hinckley.
Tom Walsh is DJ'ing & he will play Ray Agee (hopefully).
Now if I walk up to the decks & I see a vinyl carved copy or some other form of bastardised copy spinning around I'll feel cheated but I know that won't happen.
Wouldn't go if I thought it would.
Them's the rules for me, Always has been & always will.
PS, Slight contradiction on my previous post r/e Ray Agee but sure you all know where I'm coming from.

[Peter99]

you may have seen one of their other two whale releases, or your memory is playing tricks on you. whatever the case, except for that one fraud listing there hasnt been a real one up for sale on ebay. which equals there hasnt been one on ebay! everything else indeed is rubbish and just another myth. wether timmie brown had one in his auction I dont remember seeing it but I heavily doubt it. I'll ask him.

https://youtu.be/YPIsTKpAoE4

[Marc Forrest]

sorry marc..i`m not scenile and i dont smoke anything.brownie defo had it on his auction a couple of years ago........and i dont believe for one minute youre the all seeing eye.sorry bud

No problem Dave, but neither do I....smoke or believe you are the all seeing eye. you said you saw at least two copies on ebay, I say theres only been one and that one wasnt a real copy. None show up via popsike or collectorsfrenzy. Dont know if TB had one in his auction. Doubt it.

Will give this thread a rest now, have a great weekend...I am getting ready now to enjoy mine ;)

[KevH]

back in the day people weren't as squeamish about owning boots and people on here have admitted this,,

its only since the dealers and collectors got established that these have been frowned upon ,

don't think it was all about the rarity of the sounds it was more about the setting (venue) and the travel because there wasn't a soul do in every town the events back then were few and far between and there were a lot less people into it then that's where the elitism came in .

 

Back in the day,the majority hadn't got a pot to piss in,so cheap boots were manna from heaven.Most of us were 16/17 etc......

[Chalky]

Did anyone answer the original question

[Pete S]

Nobody can possibly know everything that's been on ebay.  I was on it in 1999, hardly anyone else was, who can remember what was going through at that time, I can't, apart from the obvious memorable ones (for me)  like Vickie Baines etc

[Cunnie]

Did anyone answer the original question

Question in post 1.

Answer in post 2  

[barney]

well that's my box sorted for tonight

[Guest Bearsy]

well that's my box sorted for tonight

ovo.jpg

So that's where the yellow Professionals went then 

[Peter99]

Nobody can possibly know everything that's been on ebay.  I was on it in 1999, hardly anyone else was, who can remember what was going through at that time, I can't, apart from the obvious memorable ones (for me)  like Vickie Baines etc

There's a record Pete

 

Hope you're having a good Christmas with the missus and little ones.

 

Peter

 

[Guest Bearsy]

Back in the day,the majority hadn't got a pot to piss in,so cheap boots were manna from heaven.Most of us were 16/17 etc......

Not being rude or anything BUT  I'm not quite old enough to remember back in the day or the day in back in the day people refer too 

anyway.  Back in the late 60s early 70s what was the options for listening to music on ?

 

ipods ?

laptops ?

cds ?

mobile phones ?

cassette players ?

record players ?

 

Was the reason for boots back in them days purely down to the fact it's was basically 1 of only 2 options to hear tunes. The other being possibly cassettes ?

 

hence I totally understand boots for back in the day so you can hear your fave tunes or tapes where the likes of Pete Smith and no doubt many others recorded certain sets at say somewhere like Wigan for the pleasure of when they got home or even possibly in the car.

 

reason for boots being made today  ???   Is it really to share the music ?  

[Stompingsevens]

Going out tonight to Hinckley.

Tom Walsh is DJ'ing & he will play Ray Agee (hopefully).

Now if I walk up to the decks & I see a vinyl carved copy or some other form of bastardised copy spinning around I'll feel cheated but I know that won't happen.

Wouldn't go if I thought it would.

Them's the rules for me, Always has been & always will.

PS, Slight contradiction on my previous post r/e Ray Agee but sure you all know where I'm coming from.

Hi Cunnie, Why don't you just stay sat in your seat and enjoy the track buddy, save yourself some shoe leather and possibly a bit of high blood pressure to boot. (excuse the pun, I couldn't resist!)

[Dave Pinch]

No problem Dave, but neither do I....smoke or believe you are the all seeing eye. you said you saw at least two copies on ebay, I say theres only been one and that one wasnt a real copy. None show up via popsike or collectorsfrenzy. Dont know if TB had one in his auction. Doubt it.

Will give this thread a rest now, have a great weekend...I am getting ready now to enjoy mine ;)

thing is tho marc. for example.. the magnetics when i`m with my baby is only on popsike the once.....i`m certain its been on a few times..even a trashed copy  and a couple of white demo`s too over the years,,,,, anthony and the delsonics has been on 3 or four times ....last time i looked only one was showing...popsike and collectors frenzy only seem to show so much,but of course you know that....thing is if i had the same savvy as i have now..i would be the proud owner of a springers instead of turning it down in the early 90`s....i never sold anything back then......have a good weekend mate

[Labeat]

Not being rude or anything BUT  I'm not quite old enough to remember back in the day or the day in back in the day people refer too 

anyway.  Back in the late 60s early 70s what was the options for listening to music on ?

 

ipods ?

laptops ?

cds ?

mobile phones ?

cassette players ?

record players ?

 

Was the reason for boots back in them days purely down to the fact it's was basically 1 of only 2 options to hear tunes. The other being possibly cassettes ?

 

hence I totally understand boots for back in the day so you can hear your fave tunes or tapes where the likes of Pete Smith and no doubt many others recorded certain sets at say somewhere like Wigan for the pleasure of when they got home or even possibly in the car.

 

reason for boots being made today  ???   Is it really to share the music ?  

Back in the late 60's/early 70's my option for playing records was on my dads Bush record player that held 10 singles stacked one on top of the other,

we had only an outside toilet down the yard and a bucket of water for the milk, now look what luxuries we have!

[Stanley]

Yes and the springers has been on his auction,went for around 2k I recall

just to put the record straight pardon the pun, it was my copy of the springers that i asked john to auction a few years ago it ended at 3600.reserve not met.i kept it.

[Labeat]

just to put the record straight pardon the pun, it was my copy of the springers that i asked john to auction a few years ago it ended at 3600.reserve not met.i kept it.

 

An old Rob Marriott spin, good old Rob

[Frankie Crocker]

Any guesses how many known copies?

Roughly 10-15 at a guess. Butch, Tony Smith#1 and Ted Massey have a copy. The one Chalky mentioned went for 8k within the last two years, dollars I think but can't recall. Don't remember Tim Brown auctioning one but have missed more of his lists than those actually seen in recent years - bring back paper lists! John Manship had a Ray Agee on his list in the mid 1990's at set sale for £400 in  VG+ condition or thereabouts. Other references in this thread suggest there are a few around but I doubt there are many more in existence given the relatively small number that have appeared on the open market in recent years.

[Dave Pinch]

dont think teds got it....mick h got one recently i think...and john parker......pete lowrie had a proper test pressing of it..wonder where that is now....the springers that is

[Dave Pinch]

just to put the record straight pardon the pun, it was my copy of the springers that i asked john to auction a few years ago it ended at 3600.reserve not met.i kept it.

wonder if george is gonna get a few pm`s

[Labeat]

dont think teds got it....mick h got one recently i think...and john parker......pete lowrie had a proper test pressing of it..wonder where that is now....the springers that is

 

2 other copies Dave&Frankie.... Mace got his off Des P this summer and Pete Hullett bought his

and a Magnetics from Tim B what, 7 8 9 years ago maybe.

My apologies to Mace&Pete if I have my facts wrong!

[Frankie Crocker]

dont think teds got it....mick h got one recently i think...and john parker......pete lowrie had a proper test pressing of it..wonder where that is now....the springers that is

Ted says he has a copy in post 17 of this thread.

[Labeat]

RE;- Ray Agee, "I'm Losing Again", Personally I think Ray is singing

a northern production (edged with R&B)with obvious R&B vocals, a good

mix in my view.... is he still alive? He must be knockin on if he is.

[Ted Massey]

dont think teds got it....mick h got one recently i think...and john parker......pete lowrie had a proper test pressing of it..wonder where that is now....the springers that is

Im not going to bore you with what I paid suffice to say you can knock the last two 00 of it

[Cunnie]

Hi Cunnie, Why don't you just stay sat in your seat and enjoy the track buddy, save yourself some shoe leather and possibly a bit of high blood pressure to boot. (excuse the pun, I couldn't resist!)

Guess I could just stop at home & listen to it on youtube or something similar.

Would save my 'boot' leather too (excuse the pun, I couldn't resist!).

In fact if everybody did that it would solve the problem of so many venue's on as well.

Jeezz, some folks just don't get it do they  

 

[Guest Bearsy]

Phil T recently sold his and believe Callum has a copy now too.   Julian B, warren boogaloo, John Philips. Sur-cal  recently sold a minter

Edited December 29, 2013 by Bearsy

[Quinvy]

Are we talking at cross purposes here? Bearsy, I presume you must be talking about Ray Agee? There can't be that many copies of the Springers about.

 

Springers = 4/5 copies?

 

Ray Agee = 20 copies?

Edited December 29, 2013 by Quinvy

[Markw]

Are we talking at cross purposes here? Bearsy, I presume you must be talking about Ray Agee? There can't be that many copies of the Springers about.

 

Springers = 4/5 copies?

 

Ray Agee = 20 copies?

Sounds about right. Maybe more Ray Agee's knocking about?

[Marc Forrest]

dont think teds got it....mick h got one recently i think...and john parker......pete lowrie had a proper test pressing of it..wonder where that is now....the springers that is

Mick told me last night about his recent purchases, the Whale 45 wasnt amongst them ... but some other tasty stuff ;) (he played a blinding set btw, his new c/up is awesome, female artist, him and Andy are playing it, fab stuff) Butch doesnt have a Springers so he told me.

[Guest Bearsy]

Are we talking at cross purposes here? Bearsy, I presume you must be talking about Ray Agee? There can't be that many copies of the Springers about.

 

Springers = 4/5 copies?

 

Ray Agee = 20 copies?

Yes Phil Ray Agee, springers very few I've ever heard out

[Stompingsevens]

Guess I could just stop at home & listen to it on youtube or something similar.

Would save my 'boot' leather too (excuse the pun, I couldn't resist!).

In fact if everybody did that it would solve the problem of so many venue's on as well.

Jeezz, some folks just don't get it do they  

 

Yes, you're right there buddy!

[Russ Vickers]

 that's a rather bold assumption you make in the statement after your first line .I don't think rarity came into it, in fact it was a problem to overcome initially because of the scarcity of records ,I always thought the music which we now call northern soul was chosen because it was uptempo dance music and was devoid of the crap around the commercial music back in the day

. and that if anything the ovo policy adopted by some on here has nowt to do with ethics its more about ensuring that those who have the money or amassed their collections of originals can monopolise the scene and exclude others especially young people and women who do not have the disposable income that some fortunate people have,

thankfully the other 50% are only interested in what comes out of the sound system and do not concern themselves with the elitist mentality of some on here .

collectors collect records , dj,s play records and punters enjoy the music and you can be any one or combination of these three

 , the punters seem to be having a great time regardless of their choice of genre of what we call northern soul .  

 

That has got to be the most mis guided post I have ever seen written on SS...its wrong in so many ways that I cant even be bothered to answer it properly....surely any sane person who is into the original ethos of a Northern/Rare Soul Scene cannot asscotiate them selves with statements like this....its shocking that some who may not know any better might actually think there is some truth in any of this tripe lol....where do people get this sh*t from....

 

Russ

[Chalky]

I would imagine there are is a copy or two of the Springers in collections from the 80's etc. George's copy not been mentioned in the coun since he mentioned it,  has Tim still got one, Butch and other collectors who have been in the loop since it was first played.

[Quinvy]

I think you will find they are the same few copies that have changed hands since the 80's. The Springers I mean.  Of course there are bound to be unknown copies in collections, but in all the years I was on the scene I very rarely heard it played out.

[Md Records]

The Springers is probably tucked away in the collections of a few U.S. "group" collectors, and there are more copies amongst that scene than we in the "Northern Soul" collecting fraternity would think.

   In respect of Ray Agee, he signed up for Sherman and Ann Coleman's Soultown/Celeste/Coleman set up around 1964, leaving about 1966 to go to Brandin records, so the disc could have come out after then, without his knowledge OR permission, and could have been a disc scheduled for the celeste label. As far as Ray Agee having no knowledge of the disc, I think with an output of material that started in 1952 for Modern records, and recording for at least 20 labels his memory of specific tracks could be excused, especially if he didn't know they had been released and had not led an "austere" lifestyle. All speculation of course.

 

Des