Ray Agee - I'm Losing Again/ Hard Loving Woman On Cd?

[Mace]

What's up Mace? A bit touchy aren't you?

Not at all Phil, just my twisted sense of humour.

Think about it.....now rumoured as an early bootleg that was supposedly incorrectly credited as Ray Agee (who can't remember singing it despite sounding exactly like him)..... then covered up as James Conwell and first played by Searling....or Rushbrooke.....or Raistrick....and obviously soon to be re-booted once high res scans and flip side sound files have been successfully sourced from Soul Source members who will then complain bitterly when it's all over eBay for £6.99.

Its like a bad Fawlty Towers script........

.....my humour merely reflects this whole car crash of a thread.....

;o)

Edited December 26, 2013 by Mace

[Guest wigan bob]

this is just a soul myth like carlena on wand was the inmates first played at yate and so on and on like soul charades

[Quinvy]

You should know by now Mace, you will never stop the bootleggers. Now all this time has elapsed since these records were made, it's open season on re-issues I'm afraid.

I'm totally against boots / re-issues what ever you want to call them, but most of the dealers/Dj's have been involved in some way or another since the early seventies. Better they make bad look-a-likes rather than trying to counterfeit the originals.

It's never affected the price of originals to proper collectors anyway. Relax mate.

[Mace]

Maybe Bob....but there's so many better soul myths....like hearing Andy Dyson didn't rub his head more than once at the last Lifeline, or Butch was seen smiling twice in any 2 consecutive weekends......or Kev Roberts has a 666 scar under his toupee.....

Okay, we all know these are highly unbelievable, especially as Kevs hair looks way too real to be a syrup.....

;o)

Edited December 26, 2013 by Mace

[Mace]

You should know by now Mace, you will never stop the bootleggers. Now all this time has elapsed since these records were made, it's open season on re-issues I'm afraid.I'm totally against boots / re-issues what ever you want to call them, but most of the dealers/Dj's have been involved in some way or another since the early seventies. Better they make bad look-a-likes rather than trying to counterfeit the originals.It's never affected the price of originals to proper collectors anyway. Relax mate.

To be honest, I'm way past worrying about boots nowadays, though I'd rather them not look identical with same flips cus some-one might just get mugged for a coin or two on t'internet......I know Jesse well and he's a nice guy, and certainly won't put them out as originals, but there's always some Cnut who might further down the line.....in fact we are supposed to be meeting up in the New Year at a friends house to play a few tunes....suffice to say I won't be taking my Ray Agee and a tape recorder to the meet !

;o)

Edited December 27, 2013 by Mace

[Quinvy]

So what's it worth these days? £2k?

[Mace]

Which side.....?

;o)

[Mace]

£3k to £4k depending who's selling and who's buying......

[Quinvy]

Bloody hell!

[Chalky]

£3k to £4k depending who's selling and who's buying......

 

One just sold one for somewhere in-between those figures, went pretty quick too.

[Dave Pinch]

steeve green sold his for £4800.....he did offer it out at over 5k initially......lot a money.....its a good record a bit repetative tho..it gets the dance floors goin..but then again so would the hoeky cokey at some venues

[Chalky]

steeve green sold his for £4800.....he did offer it out at over 5k initially......lot a money.....its a good record a bit repetative tho..it gets the dance floors goin..but then again so would the hoeky cokey at some venues

 

 

There has been at least three up for sale or offers on here the last 12 months.

[Dave Pinch]

There has been at least three up for sale or offers on here the last 12 months.

and a want put out that was sorted straight away..............hmmm...if it were a toss up between this and the springers ...springers wins 100 times out of 100

[Quinvy]

Makes you wonder what Manship would get for this and the Springers. Has either 45 featured on his auction? I can't remember. 

[Chalky]

Makes you wonder what Manship would get for this and the Springers. Has either 45 featured on his auction? I can't remember. 

 

Ray Agee £3011 some time ago, before the site revamp.

[Dobber]

Makes you wonder what Manship would get for this and the Springers. Has either 45 featured on his auction? I can't remember. 

Yes and the springers has been on his auction,went for around 2k I recall

[Quinvy]

Yes and the springers has been on his auction,went for around 2k I recall

 That can't be right surely? Got to be one of the rarest and best 45's on the planet. 

[Ted Massey]

springers hasn't been on mannys auction imo

[Chalky]

springers hasn't been on mannys auction imo

 

I don't recall ever seeing it?

[Dave Pinch]

it books at £2000..... i`ll have one for that price if anyones selling

[Chalky]

it books at £2000..... i`ll have one for that price if anyones selling

 

 

One went through I think ebay for around 8k if remember rightly, dollars or pounds can't remember.  It doesn't show on popsike or Collectors Frenzy though.

[Quinvy]

Any guesses how many known copies?

[Dave Pinch]

springers defo been on ebay at least twice,,,,,1st time around 2004

[Stompingsevens]

You should know by now Mace, you will never stop the bootleggers. Now all this time has elapsed since these records were made, it's open season on re-issues I'm afraid.

I'm totally against boots / re-issues what ever you want to call them, but most of the dealers/Dj's have been involved in some way or another since the early seventies. Better they make bad look-a-likes rather than trying to counterfeit the originals.

It's never affected the price of originals to proper collectors anyway. Relax mate.

Hi Quinvy, I find this comment interesting, why are you so against re-issues? Do you think the only people who should be able to appreciate or 'play out' these records should be the few people who are lucky enough to be able to afford to lay out hundreds or thousands of pounds on a record? What about all the people to don't have that kind of money but still have the passion for the music. Try to look at the world beyond the end of your record box buddy, music is for everyone and it's important to 'spread the word', I don't know how many young people are getting into your scene just now but the 50's scene needs the next generation of collectors and enthusiasts to come through pronto and in my experience the best way to achieve that is to let them access great 45's that they could otherwise not afford at a fraction of what an original may cost. It's also part of the mystique of the 45 to see it on an original label, albeit an obvious copy, this is educational for those who want to learn but don't have the finance. As for the re-issues affecting the price, this is simply not true, if anything the prices will rise as more people get to hear and want to own original copies of the 45's. If the only reason you like original records is because of the money they command or because no none else owns a copy I think you may need to take a few steps back and have a good long hard think about, well, everything really. Imagine if no one was able to run prints of Salvador Dali paintings and only the person who owned the original could gaze at the beauty of his work, or a Rembrandt........? Music is a gift and should be shared as such!

It is also a mis-conception that the people who issue these 45's 'make millions', do you have any idea about the production costs of pressing 500x 45's is these days? People press these records as enthusiasts for other (less wealthy) enthusiasts.

I would also add the following quote - 

"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free and good men die like dogs. There is also a downside" -  Hunter S. Thompson

[Guest Soultown andy]

I very much doubt you will find much if any support for the playing out [i assume you mean djing]of re issues or boots,on a site full of collectors and djs.Some of whom have spent years tracking down records,how can you not grasp that stompingsevens.

[Stompingsevens]

I very much doubt you will find much if any support for the playing out [i assume you mean djing]of re issues or boots,on a site full of collectors and djs.Some of whom have spent years tracking down records,how can you not grasp that stompingsevens.

Hi Andy, I am not looking for anyone's support or approval and as someone who has collected original records for 35 years I couldn't give a damn what the DJ plays as long as it's good music, you are stuck in a small and isolated world, open your heart up buddy and become willing to share what we all love and are passionate about, music! original pressings? yes, wonderful, I have thousands of them but not everyone can afford (or find) the Les Vendor (Joe Hill Louis) on Vendor or the Ray Agee on Soultown. I would be happy to pay for an original copy of the Soultown and couldn't give a monkeys if someone then did a repro 45 of it. I would still want to buy an original if someone pressed a repro first. I collect originals but I also do not begrudge younger or less priviliged people the opportunity to buy and enjoy the same music, music is not only for well-off elitists, it's for everybody. 

Are you one of those DJs that covers up the labels on your 45's so no one else can know what you are playing..............?

They are only bits of plastic matey! (but some are definitely better than others!)

[Guest Soultown andy]

Hi Andy, I am not looking for anyone's support or approval and as someone who has collected original records for 35 years I couldn't give a damn what the DJ plays as long as it's good music, you are stuck in a small and isolated world, open your heart up buddy and become willing to share what we all love and are passionate about, music! original pressings? yes, wonderful, I have thousands of them but not everyone can afford (or find) the Les Vendor (Joe Hill Louis) on Vendor or the Ray Agee on Soultown. I would be happy to pay for an original copy of the Soultown and couldn't give a monkeys if someone then did a repro 45 of it. I would still want to buy an original if someone pressed a repro first. I collect originals but I also do not begrudge younger or less priviliged people the opportunity to buy and enjoy the same music, music is not only for well-off elitists, it's for everybody. 

Are you one of those DJs that covers up the labels on your 45's so no one else can know what you are playing..............?

They are only bits of plastic matey! (but some are definitely better than others!)

 

I don't need advice on opening up my heart and doubt my world is as small and isolated as you imagine.I don't begrudge anybody anything just don't get to involved in that side of the scene,but each to their own.No I don't cover records or dj that much either these days,but still run the odd venue or so,i guess we will have to agree to disagree.Its only the playing out of re issues boots etc I don't agree with,re issues boots etc are a great way to own records if that's what you want

Edited December 27, 2013 by Soultown andy

[Guest john s]

I certainly don't have the money to buy hugely expensive originals, but I wouldn't buy the bootlegs. 

 

Loads of people moan about the endless booting of records on the r'n'b scene, I know a few who've given up collecting as anything that gets big gets booted sooner rather than later.

 

Same with the shoddy freakbeat boots (sorry, 'French jukebox promos') that were around a few years ago, and the endless stream of big-money revival reggae lookalikes that spew out.

Edited December 28, 2013 by john s

[Chalky]

Hi Quinvy, I find this comment interesting, why are you so against re-issues? Do you think the only people who should be able to appreciate or 'play out' these records should be the few people who are lucky enough to be able to afford to lay out hundreds or thousands of pounds on a record? What about all the people to don't have that kind of money but still have the passion for the music. Try to look at the world beyond the end of your record box buddy, music is for everyone and it's important to 'spread the word', 

 

We've had this argument so many times, why do you feel you need to either spend thousands of pounds on a record or play bootlegs to  be a DJ?  If you don't have the money for. Soultown Ray Agee then look at something cheaper. Plenty of decent records that don't stretch the wallet out there.

Edited December 27, 2013 by chalky

[Quinvy]

Hi Quinvy, I find this comment interesting, why are you so against re-issues? Do you think the only people who should be able to appreciate or 'play out' these records should be the few people who are lucky enough to be able to afford to lay out hundreds or thousands of pounds on a record? What about all the people to don't have that kind of money but still have the passion for the music. Try to look at the world beyond the end of your record box buddy, music is for everyone and it's important to 'spread the word', I don't know how many young people are getting into your scene just now but the 50's scene needs the next generation of collectors and enthusiasts to come through pronto and in my experience the best way to achieve that is to let them access great 45's that they could otherwise not afford at a fraction of what an original may cost. It's also part of the mystique of the 45 to see it on an original label, albeit an obvious copy, this is educational for those who want to learn but don't have the finance. As for the re-issues affecting the price, this is simply not true, if anything the prices will rise as more people get to hear and want to own original copies of the 45's. If the only reason you like original records is because of the money they command or because no none else owns a copy I think you may need to take a few steps back and have a good long hard think about, well, everything really. Imagine if no one was able to run prints of Salvador Dali paintings and only the person who owned the original could gaze at the beauty of his work, or a Rembrandt........? Music is a gift and should be shared as such!

It is also a mis-conception that the people who issue these 45's 'make millions', do you have any idea about the production costs of pressing 500x 45's is these days? People press these records as enthusiasts for other (less wealthy) enthusiasts.

I would also add the following quote - 

"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free and good men die like dogs. There is also a downside" -  Hunter S. Thompson

If you re read my post I actually said that the value of the original record isn't affected.

I don't know where you are from, but the whole ethos of the "Northern Scene" was built around the rarity of the music. The reason it has lasted so long is because one half of the scene has refused to accept the playing of anything other the original pressing at public events.

It doesn't matter how good the music is, familiarity breeds contempt, and the easy availability of even the rarest tracks on you tube, Cd and cheap re issues means that people no longer need to attend venues to hear the music. This wouldn't be so bad if there were any new discoveries to replace the classics, but there aren't. 

These cheap re issues aren't being bought by people who want to listen to music they don't know. They are being bought so that they can be played at public events thereby undermining the Dj who has spent many years and many pounds acquiring the original.

Anyway, I no longer collect vinyl, but I still hate the re issue of rare records.

[Guest john s]

 

It is also a mis-conception that the people who issue these 45's 'make millions', do you have any idea about the production costs of pressing 500x 45's is these days? 

 

I'd imagine that not having to pay costs for recording, artwork, advertising would help bring the price down - and it all helps to go towards the cost of buying expensive originals for one's own collection, of course.

[Marc Forrest]

springers defo been on ebay at least twice,,,,,1st time around 2004

Wrong. Despite popsike and collectorsfrenzy showing both zero there has been ONE listing of this record on ebay. This is about eight - ten years ago. Buyer was a very well known DJ from the UK but it turned out the listing was a fraud and the deal was not finalized. So in fact there hasnt been a real one up for sale on the whole wide web so far.

[barney]

If you re read my post I actually said that the value of the original record isn't affected.

I don't know where you are from, but the whole ethos of the "Northern Scene" was built around the rarity of the music. The reason it has lasted so long is because one half of the scene has refused to accept the playing of anything other the original pressing at public events.

It doesn't matter how good the music is, familiarity breeds contempt, and the easy availability of even the rarest tracks on you tube, Cd and cheap re issues means that people no longer need to attend venues to hear the music. This wouldn't be so bad if there were any new discoveries to replace the classics, but there aren't. 

These cheap re issues aren't being bought by people who want to listen to music they don't know. They are being bought so that they can be played at public events thereby undermining the Dj who has spent many years and many pounds acquiring the original.

Anyway, I no longer collect vinyl, but I still hate the re issue of rare records.

 that's a rather bold assumption you make in the statement after your first line .I don't think rarity came into it, in fact it was a problem to overcome initially because of the scarcity of records ,I always thought the music which we now call northern soul was chosen because it was uptempo dance music and was devoid of the crap around the commercial music back in the day

. and that if anything the ovo policy adopted by some on here has nowt to do with ethics its more about ensuring that those who have the money or amassed their collections of originals can monopolise the scene and exclude others especially young people and women who do not have the disposable income that some fortunate people have,

thankfully the other 50% are only interested in what comes out of the sound system and do not concern themselves with the elitist mentality of some on here .

collectors collect records , dj,s play records and punters enjoy the music and you can be any one or combination of these three

 , the punters seem to be having a great time regardless of their choice of genre of what we call northern soul .  

[Stompingsevens]

We've had this argument so many times, why do you feel you need to either spend thousands of pounds on a record or play bootlegs to  be a DJ?  If you don't have the money for. Soultown Ray Agee then look at something cheaper. Plenty of decent records that don't stretch the wallet out there.

I'm not a DJ, I just like good music and this is not an argument it's just a few observations.

[Chalky]

I'm not a DJ, I just like good music and this is not an argument it's just a few observations.

 

The only observation I use is if you ain't got the records leave it to someone else, there are plenty who do have the records.  Or as I said buy within your budget, plenty of good records about often cheaper than boots.  If all you want to do is listen, listen from a cd, too many seem far too happy to say it is ok to bootleg.

[Dave Pinch]

Wrong. Despite popsike and collectorsfrenzy showing both zero there has been ONE listing of this record on ebay. This is about eight - ten years ago. Buyer was a very well known DJ from the UK but it turned out the listing was a fraud and the deal was not finalized. So in fact there hasnt been a real one up for sale on the whole wide web so far.

never wrong marc....saw it with my own eyes..which i tend to believe..whether it was fraud is another matter, you talk rubbish if you say its never been on the world wide web..brownie had one for sale also on his auctions .............

Edited December 28, 2013 by dave pinch

[Steve L]

I'm Losing A Good Thing - R&B ?? 

Pure northern to  my ears  

[Quinvy]

 that's a rather bold assumption you make in the statement after your first line .I don't think rarity came into it, in fact it was a problem to overcome initially because of the scarcity of records ,I always thought the music which we now call northern soul was chosen because it was uptempo dance music and was devoid of the crap around the commercial music back in the day

. and that if anything the ovo policy adopted by some on here has nowt to do with ethics its more about ensuring that those who have the money or amassed their collections of originals can monopolise the scene and exclude others especially young people and women who do not have the disposable income that some fortunate people have,

thankfully the other 50% are only interested in what comes out of the sound system and do not concern themselves with the elitist mentality of some on here .

collectors collect records , dj,s play records and punters enjoy the music and you can be any one or combination of these three

 , the punters seem to be having a great time regardless of their choice of genre of what we call northern soul .  

If the records that were played in the 1970's had been readily available to all, there wouldn't have been a scene. Every record that was bootlegged was immediately dropped from the playlist. The whole scene has been built on elitism. If you don't get that concept, you don't get the scene.

Your argument has come from people who want to cash in on the popularity of this music by setting up events and playing bootlegs, re issues and even off lap tops. What next karaoke?

The magic has gone. Most events are now social events for old people in fancy dress.

[barney]

back in the day people weren't as squeamish about owning boots and people on here have admitted this,,

its only since the dealers and collectors got established that these have been frowned upon ,

don't think it was all about the rarity of the sounds it was more about the setting (venue) and the travel because there wasn't a soul do in every town the events back then were few and far between and there were a lot less people into it then that's where the elitism came in .

[barney]

 

The magic has gone. Most events are now social events for old people in fancy dress.

bit of agism here

do you mean people that go out in droves every w/end however dressed, to listen and dance to the wonderfull music and enjoy themselves ,,

that's digusting they ought to be taken outside and thrashed

[Guest Soultown andy]

back in the day people weren't as squeamish about owning boots and people on here have admitted this,,

its only since the dealers and collectors got established that these have been frowned upon ,

don't think it was all about the rarity of the sounds it was more about the setting (venue) and the travel because there wasn't a soul do in every town the events back then were few and far between and there were a lot less people into it then that's where the elitism came in .

 

How can it possibly be elitist for the people who actualy own the original records to be the ones who dj with em.Ive never had a problem with people owning buying boots to play at home,although fully understand and respect those who think all bootlegging is wrong.Boots have always been part of the scene djing with em hasn't,if  some are desperate to dj its been said over and over again thousands of good sounds cheap as chips.As for not being about rarity back in the day it was for some,many travelled the length of the uk to hear searling sam etcs rareitys .Another thread gone bad,is everyone else as bored with xmas me lol.

 

 

 

 

of cheap originals

Edited December 28, 2013 by Soultown andy

[Peter99]

Hi Quinvy, I find this comment interesting, why are you so against re-issues? Do you think the only people who should be able to appreciate or 'play out' these records should be the few people who are lucky enough to be able to afford to lay out hundreds or thousands of pounds on a record? What about all the people to don't have that kind of money but still have the passion for the music. Try to look at the world beyond the end of your record box buddy, music is for everyone and it's important to 'spread the word', I don't know how many young people are getting into your scene just now but the 50's scene needs the next generation of collectors and enthusiasts to come through pronto and in my experience the best way to achieve that is to let them access great 45's that they could otherwise not afford at a fraction of what an original may cost. It's also part of the mystique of the 45 to see it on an original label, albeit an obvious copy, this is educational for those who want to learn but don't have the finance. As for the re-issues affecting the price, this is simply not true, if anything the prices will rise as more people get to hear and want to own original copies of the 45's. If the only reason you like original records is because of the money they command or because no none else owns a copy I think you may need to take a few steps back and have a good long hard think about, well, everything really. Imagine if no one was able to run prints of Salvador Dali paintings and only the person who owned the original could gaze at the beauty of his work, or a Rembrandt........? Music is a gift and should be shared as such!

It is also a mis-conception that the people who issue these 45's 'make millions', do you have any idea about the production costs of pressing 500x 45's is these days? People press these records as enthusiasts for other (less wealthy) enthusiasts.

I would also add the following quote - 

"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free and good men die like dogs. There is also a downside" -  Hunter S. Thompson

Not having an argument like - but how's about bollox? Just an observation like.

 

 

Peter

Edited December 28, 2013 by Peter99

[barney]

[Stompingsevens]

Not having an argument like - but how's about bollox? Just an observation like.

 

 

Peter

Interesting use of passive aggression!

[Peter99]

Interesting use of passive aggression!

No aggression in there mate - just an observation.

 

 

Peter

[Stompingsevens]

This thread is quite interesting, I think a lot of the people on here a just missing there youth and 'the good old days', I'm 50 and I miss them too but times change and so does the scene(s), trying to preserve 'the way it was' or trying to turn back the clock is just silly. It's really all about the next generation who will carry it forward and kids today have a different approach which is hardly surprising considering what's at the end of a computer. I am quite happy I only had a few scant re-issue LP's to glean because it introduced me slowly into the music I grew to be so passionate about. If I was a newcomer now I wouldn't know where to start as there is just so much available on CD/Repro and original and for that reason I think there will always be a club scene, to go and to listen to what people who are a bit ahead of you will play, there is also the social and shagging side to the scene(s) which should not be overlooked although it may have been forgotten by a few of us oldies!

 

I dig repro's, they are a cheap way to get interested in some very obscure sounds one might otherwise never hear. I think people who are against them are just odd, what's the big deal but having said that I only buy original records, that's my choice. Live and let live!

[Chalky]

I dig repro's, they are a cheap way to get interested in some very obscure sounds one might otherwise never hear. I think people who are against them are just odd, what's the big deal but having said that I only buy original records, that's my choice. Live and let live!

 

 

What rubbish.  Just about every record out there (apart from the exclusives and real rarities the top lads have) is on youtube, a cd or some other format, there dis no need whatsoever to resort to boots to hear them.

 

What is this topic about?

[Guest Byrney]

back in the day people weren't as squeamish about owning boots and people on here have admitted this,,

its only since the dealers and collectors got established that these have been frowned upon ,

don't think it was all about the rarity of the sounds it was more about the setting (venue) and the travel because there wasn't a soul do in every town the events back then were few and far between and there were a lot less people into it then that's where the elitism came in .

When's back in the day? I joined this party in 78 and it seemed the respected DJs played (primarily) OVO.  To understand your perspective a bit more, when do you see dealers and collectors getting established? They've always been there whilst I've been about I think.

[Guest Bearsy]

Natural boobs or implanted boobs ?

 

me personally I prefer the real thing wether they are big or small there is not better feeling than holding something real in your hands ...

[Guest Byrney]

On I'm losing again. The voice is unmistakable as Ray Agee to my spud likes. It's also one of those records that come into their own when played over a cracking system. Was at the Frobisher a decade or so ago and the DJ, might have been Butch put it on.

 

We (Guy, Dean and me) haven't heard it for yonks and it stopped us in our tracks from our usual constant nattering - the bass and relentless beat, especially in the horn / bass break where Ray ( and it is Ray  ) sings I must be losing again.. Baby..

 

proper smash the gaff up Norvun init.