Guest Juniorsoul Posted December 19, 2013 Posted December 19, 2013 Is anyone aware of any boots/reissues of this play? I assumed Mirwood wasn't a heavily booted label. Just bought myself a copy, didn't pay a lot, but the price I paid was a little bit suspect. The matrix number reads: ∆59636, it also has 'vocal' and 'instrumental' etched into respective sides. Any information would be greatly received. Many thanks, Jrsoul.
Autumnstoned Posted December 20, 2013 Posted December 20, 2013 (edited) Was booted. Manship guide 5th edition states that the originals are on styrene ( styrene is brittle and if you try to bend it it will snap ) If made from vinyl ( the bootleg is apparently made of very flexible vinyl ) it is a counterfeit. Guide price is £150 for original demo and plum coloured label issue - £100 for original blue label issue. Edited December 20, 2013 by autumnstoned
Sebastian Posted December 20, 2013 Posted December 20, 2013 Any information would be greatly received. The one you've got is a counterfeit/repro (it's pressed on vinyl, not styrene).
Jim Elliott Posted December 20, 2013 Posted December 20, 2013 The first import I ever bought. Fantastic oldie.
Pete S Posted December 20, 2013 Posted December 20, 2013 Can't believe there are no vinyl originals, there are of every other Mirwood record. The one in the picture has the correct delta number. Also it was booted as a white demo. Don't believe all you read in books 1
Pete S Posted December 20, 2013 Posted December 20, 2013 p.s. who on God's earth would pay £150 for a copy of this? 2
Sebastian Posted December 20, 2013 Posted December 20, 2013 Can't believe there are no vinyl originals, there are of every other Mirwood record. The one in the picture has the correct delta number. Has got poor sound quality (mastered at very low volume) compared to the original styrene press though.
Pete S Posted December 20, 2013 Posted December 20, 2013 Has got poor sound quality (mastered at very low volume) compared to the original styrene press though. Again, makes no sense, Mirwood's quality control was very good, and they'd have used the same master to press both styrene and vinyl. Can understand the bootleg being lesser quality, not the original. 1
Sebastian Posted December 20, 2013 Posted December 20, 2013 (edited) Again, makes no sense, Mirwood's quality control was very good, and they'd have used the same master to press both styrene and vinyl. Can understand the bootleg being lesser quality, not the original. I've never seen an original vinyl release of this 45 and highly doubt that one exist. The vinyl bootleg which is pictured above is however very convincing as far as the matrix details goes. If anyone has got this on an original vinyl 45, please A/B it with an original styrene press. As Pete hinted at, they should play at the exact same volume. Edited December 20, 2013 by Sebastian
Kegsy Posted December 20, 2013 Posted December 20, 2013 Just had a look at my plum copy and to be honest I'm not sure if its vinyl or very high quality styrene. When flicked with a finger it does not click like styrene but hums like vinyl. Kegsy
Pete S Posted December 20, 2013 Posted December 20, 2013 Just had a look at my plum copy and to be honest I'm not sure if its vinyl or very high quality styrene. When flicked with a finger it does not click like styrene but hums like vinyl. Kegsy Easiest way of telling - can you peel the label off? 2
Popular Post Kegsy Posted December 20, 2013 Popular Post Posted December 20, 2013 Easiest way of telling - can you peel the label off? anybody want a copy with no label on one side ? 5
Guest Posted December 20, 2013 Posted December 20, 2013 Can't believe there are no vinyl originals, there are of every other Mirwood record. I have never seen a vinyl original of The Belles "Don't Pretend". All the copies I have seen are styrene, or have I been looking in the wrong places?
Guest Juniorsoul Posted December 20, 2013 Posted December 20, 2013 p.s. who on God's earth would pay £150 for a copy of this? Surely a record is always worth what someone is willing to pay? The first bit of advice my Dad ever gave me when I started collecting! Remember that Manship doesn't take into account the desirability or demand of a record. anybody want a copy with no label on one side ? Agreed! I Don't dare try, just incase I've got a genuine copy here. Has got poor sound quality (mastered at very low volume) compared to the original styrene press though. The sound quality of this is actually very good. I'm still fairly novice, as far as telling apart originals and convincing boots go, however if this is a boot, and is convincing as Sebastian says, maybe I can get away with spinning it anyway! As it's a fabulous record. Thanks for the feedback guys
Pete S Posted December 20, 2013 Posted December 20, 2013 Surely a record is always worth what someone is willing to pay? The first bit of advice my Dad ever gave me when I started collecting! Remember that Manship doesn't take into account the desirability or demand of a record. Yes he does, those are the main reasons he prices them as he does, the most desirable records are always going to be the most expensive! What do you think he basis his prices on, the label design? 2
Sebastian Posted December 20, 2013 Posted December 20, 2013 (edited) Just had a look at my plum copy and to be honest I'm not sure if its vinyl or very high quality styrene. Post a picture of it and someone on here will let you know. Edited December 20, 2013 by Sebastian
Sebastian Posted December 20, 2013 Posted December 20, 2013 Agreed! I Don't dare try, just incase I've got a genuine copy here. The sound quality of this is actually very good. You have got a vinyl copy on your hands, it is not pressed on styrene and you can't easily peel off the label. The bootleg has got pretty decent clarity to the sound, but it plays at roughly 50% of the volume of what an original plays like. 1
Guest Juniorsoul Posted December 22, 2013 Posted December 22, 2013 Yes he does, those are the main reasons he prices them as he does, the most desirable records are always going to be the most expensive! What do you think he basis his prices on, the label design? So why did I see a Major Lance - You Don't Want Me No More Okeh White demo, go for well over Manships valuation? Because it's in demand. The main reason they're valued as they are is because they're rare. If he valued them on desirability or demand. There'd be a new copy of Manship every month.
Pete S Posted December 22, 2013 Posted December 22, 2013 (edited) So why did I see a Major Lance - You Don't Want Me No More Okeh White demo, go for well over Manships valuation? Because it's in demand. The main reason they're valued as they are is because they're rare. If he valued them on desirability or demand. There'd be a new copy of Manship every month. Sorry I haven't got a clue what you're on about. You say it's not because of demand, and then you quote a record that is in demand and say thats why it got the price. Shame people have to rely on price guides and the musings of one person these days instead of knowledge and experience. Edited December 22, 2013 by Pete S 1
Sunnysoul Posted December 22, 2013 Posted December 22, 2013 (edited) You have got a vinyl copy on your hands, it is not pressed on styrene and you can't easily peel off the label. The bootleg has got pretty decent clarity to the sound, but it plays at roughly 50% of the volume of what an original plays like. Is this vinyl Jackie Lee a boot ? This also has very low volume. Edited December 22, 2013 by sunnysoul
Guest Juniorsoul Posted December 22, 2013 Posted December 22, 2013 Sorry I haven't got a clue what you're on about. You say it's not because of demand, and then you quote a record that is in demand and say thats why it got the price. Shame people have to rely on price guides and the musings of one person these days instead of knowledge and experience. Manship's value for a Major Lance - You Don't Want Me No More is £350 according to Manship's USA 6th Edition. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/251374792122?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649 Here's a copy that sold just over a month ago for close to £360. How can Manship predict the demand of a record? Record demand is always changing. Like I said, if he was to value records on demand, there would be a new edition of Manship much more regular. I'm not going to apologise for not having the 'knowledge and experience'. I wasn't there, I'm 21. Surely, it's the likes of you Wheel, Torch, Wigan veterans that should be educating the likes of me, rather than giving me grief. That is, if you want the scene to move on.
Swifty Posted December 22, 2013 Posted December 22, 2013 anybody want a copy with no label on one side ? pmsl
Guest Soulsurfer Posted December 22, 2013 Posted December 22, 2013 Sorry I haven't got a clue what you're on about. You say it's not because of demand, and then you quote a record that is in demand and say thats why it got the price. Shame people have to rely on price guides and the musings of one person these days instead of knowledge and experience. The fact is, people who are new to this (such as myself) have to rely on the likes of Popsike and Manship guides, as we simply don't have the knowledge/experience.
De-to Posted December 22, 2013 Posted December 22, 2013 plenty on popsike spot the boot,lol... https://www.popsike.com/php/quicksearch.php?searchtext=bobby+garrett&x=22&y=12
Pete S Posted December 22, 2013 Posted December 22, 2013 Manship's value for a Major Lance - You Don't Want Me No More is £350 according to Manship's USA 6th Edition. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/251374792122?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649 Here's a copy that sold just over a month ago for close to £360. How can Manship predict the demand of a record? Record demand is always changing. Like I said, if he was to value records on demand, there would be a new edition of Manship much more regular. I'm not going to apologise for not having the 'knowledge and experience'. I wasn't there, I'm 21. Surely, it's the likes of you Wheel, Torch, Wigan veterans that should be educating the likes of me, rather than giving me grief. That is, if you want the scene to move on. Sorry I'm not trying to give you grief, I'm just not getting your point. He only does a price guide when he feels like it or needs the money or whatever other motiviation. The price guide(s) ruined buying and selling for an awful lot of people so I'm not a fan I'm afraid. If you look at the price of something like Billy Davis in issue one it would be £5, in issue 5 it would be £50. That's why I say it's all down to demand, if the record hadn't been in demand it wouldn't have gone up in price.
Chris L Posted December 22, 2013 Posted December 22, 2013 Is anyone aware of any boots/reissues of this play? I assumed Mirwood wasn't a heavily booted label. Just bought myself a copy, didn't pay a lot, but the price I paid was a little bit suspect. The matrix number reads: ∆59636, it also has 'vocal' and 'instrumental' etched into respective sides. Any information would be greatly received. Many thanks, Jrsoul. IMG_0899.jpg IMG_0898.jpg I have loads of Mirwood on vinyl, look for a tiny "h" symbol.
Chris L Posted December 22, 2013 Posted December 22, 2013 Just had a look at my plum copy and to be honest I'm not sure if its vinyl or very high quality styrene. When flicked with a finger it does not click like styrene but hums like vinyl. Kegsy Try bending it, that'll tell you
Guest Juniorsoul Posted December 22, 2013 Posted December 22, 2013 I have loads of Mirwood on vinyl, look for a tiny "h" symbol. There is a small 'H' type symbol etched into both sides, next to 'vocal' and 'instrumental' respectively.
Premium Stuff Posted December 22, 2013 Posted December 22, 2013 There is a small 'H' type symbol etched into both sides, next to 'vocal' and 'instrumental' respectively. Etched or stamped?
pikeys dog Posted December 22, 2013 Posted December 22, 2013 looks snide to me - poor definition to the print.
Guest Paul Posted December 22, 2013 Posted December 22, 2013 Hello Jrsoul It may be a bootleg or a legitimate repress but nothing is certain and the "experts" often make incorrect assumptions so don't worry about it or keep an eye out for a different copy. Another alternative is to buy the UK issue on Jay Boy from 1972, credited to Bob & Earl rather than Bobby Garrett. The important thing is that you like the track.
Guest Soulsurfer Posted December 22, 2013 Posted December 22, 2013 Hello Jrsoul It may be a bootleg or a legitimate repress but nothing is certain and the "experts" often make incorrect assumptions so don't worry about it or keep an eye out for a different copy. Another alternative is to buy the UK issue on Jay Boy from 1972, credited to Bob & Earl rather than Bobby Garrett. The important thing is that you like the track. - Quite right.
Guest Juniorsoul Posted December 23, 2013 Posted December 23, 2013 Etched or stamped? I would say stamped. Both symbols are very similar.
Guest Juniorsoul Posted February 16, 2014 Posted February 16, 2014 This is a genuine copy. Independently adjudicated by two of the country's top collectors.
Tlscapital Posted February 16, 2014 Posted February 16, 2014 I doubt it's genuine. For the fact that the printing for the credits is 'shakey' while the rest is for some reason clear and sharp. Secondly all the demos and issues that are defo originals of 'ICGA' are styrene. All the light blues (Jimmy Thomas…) Mirwoods are all boots and some deeper blues are also (Performers…) both have wrong typos. The sandy white label with a cheap photocopy type label (Bobby G 'ICGA') is low-fi even to the groove. Finally, all the vinyl copies that look like this one sold on evil-bay (according to a quick check on Popsike) were sold from sellers base in the UK. Not all Mirwood apparently had both vinyl and styrene release. For instance I have not heard of a styrene for the Sheppards nor a vinyl of the the Belles 'DP' like Solidsoul said here. But it is indeed relevant in my belief to raise to questions from time to time since as a collector, those rare pressings do exists and sometimes wrong assertions can be proved wrong. Then according of what and how you want it, begin a maybe unfortunate but still appropriate quest for the desired format. 1
Tlscapital Posted February 16, 2014 Posted February 16, 2014 Just to finish my point; I went and dug out my copy and it's the same as above. Totally forgot about that since I only dig out 'my little girl' which I much prefer to play home and out. I've played it again then and it's not low-fi like the white label boot but the volume is indeed too low. I've bought this very copy in London some 20+ years ago. Last and least, one copy like those on evil-bay was from Canada but read final line on the screen capture...
Vin Posted February 16, 2014 Posted February 16, 2014 The fact is, people who are new to this (such as myself) have to rely on the likes of Popsike and Manship guides, as we simply don't have the knowledge/experience. I.M.O. you are already on the the right path regarding gaining knowledge as your on this site..Im sure if you ask a reasonable question regarding the soul scene here on S/S the likes of Pete S.and others will give you a honest informative answer, I read most forums every day and im amazed at the information which is shared by the members on this site, by all means read all the books that are available..but remember the are NOT bibles only guides, combined with the wealth of info available on here...make your own mind up..and as I said earlier..if in doubt....ASK.
Guest Juniorsoul Posted February 16, 2014 Posted February 16, 2014 I doubt it's genuine. For the fact that the printing for the credits is 'shakey' while the rest is for some reason clear and sharp. Secondly all the demos and issues that are defo originals of 'ICGA' are styrene. All the light blues (Jimmy Thomas…) Mirwoods are all boots and some deeper blues are also (Performers…) both have wrong typos. The sandy white label with a cheap photocopy type label (Bobby G 'ICGA') is low-fi even to the groove. Finally, all the vinyl copies that look like this one sold on evil-bay (according to a quick check on Popsike) were sold from sellers base in the UK. Not all Mirwood apparently had both vinyl and styrene release. For instance I have not heard of a styrene for the Sheppards nor a vinyl of the the Belles 'DP' like Solidsoul said here. But it is indeed relevant in my belief to raise to questions from time to time since as a collector, those rare pressings do exists and sometimes wrong assertions can be proved wrong. Then according of what and how you want it, begin a maybe unfortunate but still appropriate quest for the desired format. I hear what you're saying, however; The gentleman who looked at my copy last night, matched all the matrix information with his (also) genuine copy. Both copies were like for like. Stamped 'M R' on both sides.
Pete S Posted February 16, 2014 Posted February 16, 2014 MR is on anything pressed at Monarch, throughout the 60's and 70's, all it does it tells you where the record was made. If it's accompanied by a 5 or 6 figure number after a triangle, that tells you the year it was made also.
Tlscapital Posted February 17, 2014 Posted February 17, 2014 (edited) I'm gonna put it in my sales box and advertise it as a bootleg (the better one) still worth a buy. I can't feel comfortable enough to say nothing or to lie. Here I am. Edited February 17, 2014 by tlscapital
Guest Juniorsoul Posted February 17, 2014 Posted February 17, 2014 MR is on anything pressed at Monarch, throughout the 60's and 70's, all it does it tells you where the record was made. If it's accompanied by a 5 or 6 figure number after a triangle, that tells you the year it was made also. Yeah. The guy who looked at it said it was pressed in the 1960's by Monarch Records. Has the delta number following a triangle. Thanks for all the feedback guys, but I think I'll take the opinion of a top collector who has seen it in the flesh.
Ernie Andrews Posted February 17, 2014 Posted February 17, 2014 who was the top collector who gave the opinion?
sir cumference Posted February 17, 2014 Posted February 17, 2014 So,basically all of this thread is irrelevant,given the statement above. You discount the answers that you don`t seem to like? Just speaking plainly,like. 1
Guest Juniorsoul Posted February 17, 2014 Posted February 17, 2014 So,basically all of this thread is irrelevant,given the statement above. You discount the answers that you don`t seem to like? Just speaking plainly,like. Thread was created 2 months before I had shown my copy to said collector. So no, the thread is not irrelevent.
Guest Juniorsoul Posted February 17, 2014 Posted February 17, 2014 who was the top collector who gave the opinion? Paul Ackley.
Rick Smith Posted February 17, 2014 Posted February 17, 2014 Not 100% sure but didn't Soussan press a bunch of Mirwood tracks?
Guest Soulsurfer Posted February 17, 2014 Posted February 17, 2014 Paul Ackley. And OZZ from Prestatyn/Stoke also reeled off the delta and gave the date it was pressed. he was 100% certain it was legit.
Guest Juniorsoul Posted February 17, 2014 Posted February 17, 2014 And OZZ from Prestatyn/Stoke also reeled off the delta and gave the date it was pressed. he was 100% certain it was legit. And Paul Shoulder.
Popular Post Sebastian Posted February 18, 2014 Popular Post Posted February 18, 2014 (edited) Are we really still going over this? The delta number and run-out groove markings were deliberately forged and copied when they made the counterfeit pressed on vinyl (which is pictured at the top of this thread, it is NOT an original, I don't care what any "top collectors" said, since they are obviously wrong and either themselves own and compare it to the counterfeit OR don't know how to accurately scrutinize the differences between different presses, vinyl vs. styrene etc.). For example: take a look at the MR "stamp" on the vinyl counterfeit of this 45 and compare it to the ORIGINAL styrene press. It does not look the same. It should look the same if it was pressed at monarch (which the counterfeit wasn't). The bootleggers made a mistake when they forged the stamp on the vinyl counterfeit. Edited February 18, 2014 by Sebastian 4
stokesoulboy Posted February 19, 2014 Posted February 19, 2014 I had a look , and have to say it's not the usual thick vinyl copy I have seen in the past , delta numbers looked good, if this is a boot it fooled me but it didn't look like the one I had years ago, mr stamp is there but faint, I'm on the fence on this one as it really could be a rare press possibly later than the styrene copies
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