Heard The Rumours

[Ted Massey]

If I was currently bidding on or about to buy a copy of Sam Dees and someone knew of a rumour which meant that the record I was bidding on MAY be about to drop significantly in value I'd be mightily peeved if they hadn't made me aware of it.

Isn't that just fair play?

Would also make sense if anyone selling the record at the time removed it from sale until the rumours could be disproved or substantiated would it not?

Since when have dealers in any field played fair

[Ged Parker]

Pat Staten in quantity? Jackie Day I heard 20 odd hardly loads is it.

C'mon Pete spill the beans

20 odd is a massive amount of copies of Jackie Day but would be a tiny number of copies of Sam Dees when you look at the number as a percentage of copies that where known to be around prior to any discovery.

Picking up on rumours is one of the reasons I come on here. If we all had to be sure everything we said on here was absolute fact rather than rumour, conjecture, bias or personal opinion no one would ever post anything.

I don't doubt the integrity of Pete or John at all but Dan has expressed my opinion better than I ever could. Well done that man.

[Soulsmith]

We should all desist in discussing rumours.....

And that should start the day after dealers publish independently audited records of all their multiple copies.

Which will coincide with the day hell freezes over.

Edited June 23, 2006 by Soulsmith

[Guest]

Pat Staten in quantity? Jackie Day I heard 20 odd hardly loads is it.

Patrinel Staten is a new one on me?

But Royal Esquires is certainly a fine example, the guy from Vegas did me for a $1000 on that baby...

Jackie Day? I paid Rico Tee $3000 each for his three copies, he's since sold all his stock to Craig Moerer and Craig certainly didn't get a Jackie Day. Saturn records, Oakland who got part of the "Dobard" load got 2.

I've sold six copies, 2 of which went abroad my guess there was about 11 copies in that load.. all mint. 11 doesn't make quantity for such a fantastic piece of Northern Soul. If anyone has one for sale I'll certainly be very please to auction it.

And the Oxford Knights on Delphi looks like a repro to me, using the original stampers different paper quality for the label.

Just one point, instead of worrying about what might turn up, why not jump up and down and see how much your record collection investment has gone up over the years. Then I'm sure the guys who bought from me Don Gardner £3, Inspirations £20, Johnny Hendley £3, Damon Fox £8, Lester Tipton £15 Donna King £15, Gerri Hall £1.50 etc including, Tony Smith who was the most generous of all when he gave me £100 for his Al Williams La Beat white demo. I'm sure you all feel guilty and you'll send me some money..

Collecting and dealing is a two way street, some you win, some you lose, thankfully the losers are very few. Just do what I (and I'm many of you) do, if someone stiffs you on a price you just don't deal with them again.

But rumours about quantity have been on this scene certainly since the days of early Wigan. I remember a dealer from Cambridge (perhaps someone will recall his name) who was on the scene a short while, came back from the states and informed only a few he'd found a box of Dean Courtney's on MGM. Next Cleethorpes every DJ tried to sell his copy..me included, think Rob Thomas paid £8 for mine..did he have a box full..did he heck as like..but what he did get was a Dean Courtney for under a tenner...

Edited June 23, 2006 by john manship

[Gasher]

WELL DONE PEDRO SMIFFY

BUST THE BIG MONEY CONSORTIUM CARTEL

TOO MUCH OF IT GOING ON

TELL ALL MATE

I WANT ONE AT A DECENT PRICE TOO

WHERE DO I SIGN UP FOR THIS

SAM DEES AT A REALISTIC PRICE.

YOU KEEP THIS INFO COMMING

ITS ABOOT TIME WE STOPPED GETTING RIPPED BY SOME OF THE BIG FISH WITH THE FAT WALLETS

[Ged Parker]

But rumours about quantity have been on this scene certainly since the days of early Wigan. I remember a dealer from Cambridge (perhaps someone will recall his name) who was on the scene a short while, came back from the states and informed only a few he'd found a box of Dean Courtney's on MGM. Next Cleethorpes every DJ tried to sell his copy..me included, think Rob Thomas paid £8 for mine..did he have a box full..did he heck as like..but what he did get was a Dean Courtney for under a tenner...

You let an MGM copy of Dean Courtney go for less than the price some boots sell for? I'm shocked. I'd have given double that even if there was a BIG box found

[SteveM]

You let an MGM copy of Dean Courtney go for less than the price some boots sell for? I'm shocked. I'd have given double that even if there was a BIG box found

Ged, does that mean that you were the only other person on here besides me that didn't get one of Soul Bowls list years ago for a shiny sixpence ?

[Pete S]

I`m fukced if i`m gonna` apoligise for my good/bad sense of humor live with it Pete

You don't have to!

[Ged Parker]

Ged, does that mean that you were the only other person on here besides me that didn't get one of Soul Bowls list years ago for a shiny sixpence ?

No I had to shell out a whole $40 on mine when you could have had a train ride, a night out on the town, entry into a seedy nite club, some pharmaceutical support for your depression, a bottle of lucazade and entry in to wigan baths for less

[Little-stevie]

Keep talking Pete..I think you are a man of value on this site..You post on various topics and contribute a lot to the site.... This is a forum for the people and they have a voice..It aint all about cash is it ..I would like to think that many folk would tell each other if they thought a certain record was over priced..If thet gossip aint the truth Pete then leave that phone off the hook

[Guest Dan]

Just one point, instead of worrying about what might turn up, why not jump up and down and see how much your record collection investment has gone up over the years. Then I'm sure the guys who bought from me Don Gardner £3, Inspirations £20, Johnny Hendley £3, Damon Fox £8, Lester Tipton £15 Donna King £15, Gerri Hall £1.50 etc including, Tony Smith who was the most generous of all when he gave me £100 for his Al Williams La Beat white demo. I'm sure you all feel guilty and you'll send me some money..

Collecting and dealing is a two way street, some you win, some you lose, thankfully the losers are very few. Just do what I (and I'm many of you) do, if someone stiffs you on a price you just don't deal with them again.

why would anyone feel guilty that vinyl has appreciated over a 20-30 year period, and send you some money, john? i know you're joking, but i don't even get the joke?

tony smith didn't give you £100 for a la beat al williams, that was the price you charged him for it. you could have held onto it for 20 years and sold it for £2500 but if you'd have done that with all your records you'd have lost your house and everything else in the meantime. mind you, you'd eventually have been a very rich hobo

you're right, it's a two way street and you win and lose. the only thing i object to is you or anyone else trying to stop pete or anyone else passing on whispers they've heard about records. worse, i object to you doing it while claiming to be protecting collectors cos it suggests you think we're all mugs .

you're not protecting collectors - you're the enemy of collectors, in the nicest possible way, because you want top dollar for your records and we don't want to pay that (obviously, you're also a collector's friend in other ways). if you said 'i wish people would stop these rumours cos it might f*** up my bottom line on one or two items', that would be fine. i certainly wouldn't blame you for worrying about that one iota - i buy goods from the shop and i pay £x for them...i don't expect them to include a little panel which shows the profit they're making.

[Guest]

Patrinel Staten is a new one on me?

But Royal Esquires is certainly a fine example, the guy from Vegas did me for a $1000 on that baby...

Jackie Day? I paid Rico Tee $3000 each for his three copies, he's since sold all his stock to Craig Moerer and Craig certainly didn't get a Jackie Day. Saturn records, Oakland who got part of the "Dobard" load got 2.

I've sold six copies, 2 of which went abroad my guess there was about 11 copies in that load.. all mint. 11 doesn't make quantity for such a fantastic piece of Northern Soul. If anyone has one for sale I'll certainly be very please to auction it.

And the Oxford Knights on Delphi looks like a repro to me, using the original stampers different paper quality for the label.

Just one point, instead of worrying about what might turn up, why not jump up and down and see how much your record collection investment has gone up over the years. Then I'm sure the guys who bought from me Don Gardner £3, Inspirations £20, Johnny Hendley £3, Damon Fox £8, Lester Tipton £15 Donna King £15, Gerri Hall £1.50 etc including, Tony Smith who was the most generous of all when he gave me £100 for his Al Williams La Beat white demo. I'm sure you all feel guilty and you'll send me some money..

So, so hard for myself, and many other relatively "new"(ok, i've been collecting for about 10 years now,but in the grand scheme of soul-collecting.....new), collectors to imagine a time when our beloved and much sought after 45's were SO BL**DY CHEAP!!!.......Inspirations @ £20........BLIMEY! But that's collecting for you, whatever genre............

I do despise dishonesty and corruption in this scene, but it IS an inevitable part of it. Wherever there is a chance of money to be made, the con-men will fester, and ruin it for everyone else. I'm just grateful to John for his bootleggers guide, and to anyone else who is thoughtful enough to let us all know (via this site), about any untoward goings-on........

I've bought from both John and Pete, and they have always been helpful and informative, and it's always VERY interesting to read about any rumours/facts/stories...e.t.c....that they come by. Keep sharing them with us guys.........! .

But no more verbal unpleasantaries, please, or i'll have to get Harry Hill in ...........FFFFIGHTTT!!

Carl

Edited June 23, 2006 by soulster

[Guest Baz]

And the Oxford Knights on Delphi looks like a repro to me, using the original stampers different paper quality for the label.

Have to completely dissagree with you there John, the lables are identical i've even held it up against the Prophets on Delphi exactely the same paper, any one who knows records can tell if vinyl is 'hot off the press' you can't fake age and the Oxford Knights have that aged look to them, No disrespect but IMO its all just a scare tactic, so dealers can charge top dollar for these records, I.E when Clara Hardy turned up a little while ago they were popping up on lists with the discription Stamped Original not a boot..... Now call me stupid but where exactely did these extra copys turn up from that are on the list's of dealers? the same place as the alleged 'boots' of course

[Russ Vickers]

the lables are identical i've even held it up against the Prophets on Delphi exactely the same paper, any one who knows records can tell if vinyl is 'hot off the press' you can't fake age and the Oxford Knights have that aged look to them.

This is my take on the Oxford Knights & is based on what I have heard from the guy who is selling them & the information I have gathered from loads of other sources,

This is not the definitive answer purely my opinion based on information I have received from several sources. Like John says they were done from the same stampers, so would be identical, they were not done recently, they were done years ago, maybe even a second press, this would account for the ageing, apparently the second press/reissue/boots whatever you wanna call em have a very slight sheen to the label, the original press has a matte label, I have never had the two copies together to compare them personally. I also beleive that these copies have been circulating for years & the reason this information didnt come out sooner was that a lot of dealers including US dealers, initially didnt realise & sold these genuinely beleiving they were original first presses, I also happen to know they all came from a band member & until the guy who is selling them on ebay got involved, said band member was letting out a couple a year to one particular US dealer, who definitely didnt realise the situation at first & was not happy at all, as he felt his reputation could have been damaged thru no fault of his own. I do not think these records are boots done to con anyone, I beleive them to be a second press of some sort done some years ago.

Can any one add to this or if you know the real deal story pse share it with us.

Russ

Edited June 23, 2006 by Russ Vickers

[Ged Parker]

This is my take on the Oxford Knights & is based on what I have heard from the guy who is selling them & the information I have gathered from loads of other sources,

This is not the definitive answer purely my opinion based on information I have received from several sources. Like John says they were done from the same stampers, so would be identical, they were not done recently, they were done years ago, maybe even a second press, this would account for the ageing, apparently the second press/reissue/boots whatever you wanna call em have a very slight sheen to the label, the original press has a matte label, I have never had the two copies together to compare them personally. I also beleive that these copies have been circulating for years & the reason this information didnt come out sooner was that a lot of dealers including US dealers, initially didnt realise & sold these genuinely beleiving they were original first presses, I also happen to know they all came from a band member & until the guy who is selling them on ebay got involved, said band member was letting out a couple a year to one particular US dealer, who definitely didnt realise the situation at first & was not happy at all, as he felt his reputation could have been damaged thru no fault of his own. I do not think these records are boots done to con anyone, I beleive them to be a second press of some sort done some years ago.

Can any one add to this or if you know the real deal story pse share it with us.

Russ

Interesting one this I have also spoken to Julian (lilpedler) about these. What I am interested in is if they were indeed done years ago with the same stampers and so are identical are they infact originals? What if they were done with the same stampers but on Tuesday when the first ones of the the press were on the Monday? Would that make them originals or is it just the passage of timethat calls these into doubt?

What about originals that were pressent weeks and hundreds of miles apart like the many with east and west coast versions.

These records are being questioned because of the quality of the paper. What about records like the superlatives the light blue ones are considered originals but the yellow ones (still originals) are rarer and so more pricey. surely they weren't pressed at the same time.

Interested in peoples view really

Edited June 23, 2006 by ged parker

[Russ Vickers]

Interesting one this I have also spoken to Julian (lilpedler) about these. What I am interested in is if they were indeed done years ago with the same stampers and so are identical are they infact originals? What if they were done with the same stampers but on Tuesday when the first ones of the the press were on the Monday? Would that make them originals or is it just the passage of timethat calls these into doubt?

What about originals that were pressent weeks and hundreds of miles apart like the many with east and west coast versions.

These records are being questioned because of the quality of the paper. What about records like the superlatives the light blue ones are considered originals but the yellow ones (still originals) are rarer and so more pricey. surely they weren't pressed at the same time.

Interested in peoples view really

Good call Ged.................anyone ?

Russ

[Guest Dan]

i've got a matt one which i've had for about 15/20 years, so def the matt ones are not a recent boot. can't say about the shiny ones but i think ged's probably right about those. can't see it being kept quiet if booted now? though i could be wrong?

can't see it being booted years ago cos it was really just a tape sound for a long time (cue chalky saying that's where it should have stayed ) unless i) it was a massive beach hit and ii) there's a bootlegging culture on the beach scene? have no idea about either of those questions, to be honest

re baz saying you can tell 'new' records not so sure i agree with this, baz . have said for a long time that bootlegging of big sounds would start up again and we've all seen mint records 30 years old that look like they were pressed the day before. i know there are clues but serious counterfeiters can fool the US Treasury with banknotes so sure could fool us with a few 45s

[Guest Baz]

re baz saying you can tell 'new' records not so sure i agree with this, baz . have said for a long time that bootlegging of big sounds would start up again and we've all seen mint records 30 years old that look like they were pressed the day before. i know there are clues but serious counterfeiters can fool the US Treasury with banknotes so sure could fool us with a few 45s

Surley you can tell a new record from one thats x years old the have a very high polish sheen on them, and IMO for these 'boots' of the Oxford Knights they have got to be recent, why would any one want to boot it in the seventys on my OK there is blemishes on the vinyl and common wear on the lable, the only way you could fake that is to rub it in dirt? but the 'sheen' will still be there, its a hard one to discribe, and cant really right it in words

[Russ Vickers]

Surley you can tell a new record from one thats x years old the have a very high polish sheen on them, and IMO for these 'boots' of the Oxford Knights they have got to be recent, why would any one want to boot it in the seventys on my OK there is blemishes on the vinyl and common wear on the lable, the only way you could fake that is to rub it in dirt? but the 'sheen' will still be there, its a hard one to discribe, and cant really right it in words

Im not saying they were done as boots, Im suggesting that they may have been another press, done at the same time or just after ????????????? Just an idea you understand.

Russ

[Guest Baz]

Im not saying they were done as boots, Im suggesting that they may have been another press, done at the same time or just after ????????????? Just an idea you understand.

Russ

Yep sorry Russ that bit wasn't amied at any one, dont even know why i said in the 'seventys' but i could whole hartedly say the later pressing could be a clausable point

Did notice one thing the Prophets - talk dont dother me, has a nashville matrix stamp, where as the Oxford Knights doesn't maybe done in two differnt pressing plants? and i know the bonafide originals of O K has no nashville stamp either.

[Guest]

Pat Staten in quantity? Jackie Day I heard 20 odd hardly loads is it.

C'mon Pete spill the beans

sainsburys doing 3 for 2 at the moment with double nectar points

[Guest Bearsy]

sainsburys doing 3 for 2 at the moment with double nectar points

CAN I HAVE SIX THEN AS IM REALLY TRYING TO BUILD UP MY NECTAR POINTS FOR MY HOLIDAY !!!

[Soul Shrews]

why would anyone feel guilty that vinyl has appreciated over a 20-30 year period, and send you some money, john? i know you're joking, but i don't even get the joke?

tony smith didn't

give

you £100 for a la beat al williams, that was the price you

charged

him for it. you could have held onto it for 20 years and sold it for £2500 but if you'd have done that with all your records you'd have lost your house and everything else in the meantime. mind you, you'd eventually have been a very rich hobo

you're right, it's a two way street and you win and lose. the only thing i object to is you or anyone else trying to stop pete or anyone else passing on whispers they've heard about records. worse, i object to you doing it while claiming to be protecting collectors cos it suggests you think we're all mugs

.

you're not protecting collectors - you're the enemy of collectors,

in the nicest possible way

, because you want top dollar for your records and we don't want to pay that (obviously, you're also a collector's friend in other ways). if you said 'i wish people would stop these rumours cos it might f*** up my bottom line on one or two items', that would be fine. i certainly wouldn't blame you for worrying about that one iota - i buy goods from the shop and i pay £x for them...i don't expect them to include a little panel which shows the profit they're making.

Ah Dan

The voice of reason

keep on keepin' on

[Guest]

Ah Dan

The voice of reason

keep on keepin' on

i reckon we should all stop buying djs should only play cds demos only though

[Guest Bearsoul]

CAN I JUST SAY THIS IS THE FIRST TIME I'VE BEEN ON TELEVISION !! SORRY SHANE ...OFF THREAD...FEEL FREE TO DELETE ME I'LL BE WORTH MORE THAN RADIO STATION COPIES...I ALSO HAVE A LIGHT REDDDISH SHEEN HAVING BEEN SAT IN THE AFTERNOON SUN SUPPING SCRUMPY JACK.................OK I'LL GET ME ANORAK !!!

[Mark B]

can't see it being booted years ago cos it was really just a tape sound for a long time (cue chalky saying that's where it should have stayed ) unless i) it was a massive beach hit and ii) there's a bootlegging culture on the beach scene? have no idea about either of those questions, to be honest

yes their is a bootleg culture on the beach scene what they normally do though is change the name of the artists i have a couple of these from buying a collection of 16 beach records of ebay, bought for one record but some of the others were songs i knew but didnt recognise the artist, so checked up and was told they do re-issue stuff in the carolinas,

mark

[Russ Vickers]

-->

QUOTE(mark.b @ Jun 23 2006, 08:12 PM) link

can't see it being booted years ago cos it was really just a tape sound for a long time (cue chalky saying that's where it should have stayed ) unless i) it was a massive beach hit and ii) there's a bootlegging culture on the beach scene? have no idea about either of those questions, to be honest

yes their is a bootleg culture on the beach scene what they normally do though is change the name of the artists i have a couple of these from buying a collection of 16 beach records of ebay, bought for one record but some of the others were songs i knew but didnt recognise the artist, so checked up and was told they do re-issue stuff in the carolinas,

mark

All the time, not always good versions either, OK defo not done for the Beach Scene tho as far as I'm aware, doesnt even have that Beach feel to it.

Russ

[Mark B]

QUOTE(mark.b @ Jun 23 2006, 08:12 PM) link can't see it being booted years ago cos it was really just a tape sound for a long time (cue chalky saying that's where it should have stayed ) unless i) it was a massive beach hit and ii) there's a bootlegging culture on the beach scene? have no idea about either of those questions, to be honest

yes their is a bootleg culture on the beach scene what they normally do though is change the name of the artists i have a couple of these from buying a collection of 16 beach records of ebay, bought for one record but some of the others were songs i knew but didnt recognise the artist, so checked up and was told they do re-issue stuff in the carolinas,

mark

All the time, not always good versions either, OK defo not done for the Beach Scene tho as far as I'm aware, doesnt even have that Beach feel to it.

Russ

hi russ was not saying it could have been booted for the beach scene, sounds far too northern for beach music. was just saying their is a culture of re-issuing/booting on the beach scene. mark

[Russ Vickers]

-->

QUOTE(mark.b @ Jun 23 2006, 08:33 PM) link

hi russ was not saying it could have been booted for the beach scene, sounds far too northern for beach music. was just saying their is a culture of re-issuing/booting on the beach scene. mark

Agreed mate

Russ

[Epic]

Personal opinion about collecting rare records is if you want it & can afford it - buy it. The only person you have to please with your purchase is yourself. Just 'coz somebody may purchase the same record at a lesser price it should not diminish your love of the said tune.

Sam Dees - great record if not a tad played out.

Oxford Nights - rare yes - same class as Sam Dees - not even close.

[Russ Vickers]

Personal opinion about collecting rare records is if you want it & can afford it - buy it. The only person you have to please with your purchase is yourself. Just 'coz somebody may purchase the same record at a lesser price it should not diminish your love of the said tune.

Sam Dees - great record if not a tad played out.

Oxford Nights - rare yes - same class as Sam Dees - not even close.

Both great records IMO (Sorry Chalks) who gives a shite about rareity, its whats in the grooves, if the record is rare great....bonus, but rareity is nothing against quality.

I would not buy a record if I didnt like it, rare or not, appreciate there is a certain amount of willy waving (titty shaking for the lady collectors, no offence intended BTW), but there really are some green eyed monsters about judging by the comments on occasion who have some kinda chip on thier shoulders when it comes to Rare Records. I'd never buy a record for rareity alone, but you cant tell me that you guys dont get a kick when you land that beauty that you know very few others have & yes its brilliant musically too.

Russ

[Guest Dan]

I'd never buy a record for rareity alone, but you cant tell me that you guys dont get a kick when you land that beauty that you know very few others have & yes its brilliant musically too.

Russ

that's my philosophy to a tee russ

rarity without quality is a waste of vinyl. quality without rarity is great.

but the combination of the two is the holy grail of record collecting.

[Simsy]

Sam Dees - great record if not a tad played out.

No copies on Ebay. Matey had better crack on considering the number of copies it's rumoured he has. Or he'll be a little old man with copies to spare!

[Epic]

No copies on Ebay. Matey had better crack on considering the number of copies it's rumoured he has. Or he'll be a little old man with copies to spare!

He could end up............................."Lonely......................... truly lonely"

[Simsy]

He could end up............................."Lonely......................... truly lonely"

Tears in his eyes I guess.

Surplus Soul Sales International ...

[Epic]

He's on at Leeds Carling Weekender believe you can catch him on

Sound Stage Seven!!!!!!!!

[Mikevague]

I thought that a reasonably significant quantity of Tony Hestor demos were found about about 4 years ago - maybe a 50 box? (Is that significant quantity for a rare record? Dunno). A good few apeared on eBay at the time and I bought one for 200 dollars, they were absolutely mint as well. Someone will probably tell me now that they were never rare anyway

Think they've disappeared into peoples collections now though. But that makes three titles

Come on Pete, out with the Sam Dees rumour

A 25 count box of Tony Hestor is what I turned up; They are almost gone now, and I have done very well with em'; $340 for the last one 2 months ago....

[Simsy]

He's on at Leeds Carling Weekender believe you can catch him on

Sound Stage Seven!!!!!!!!

Carling Weekender you say? Dear oh dear. Sorry Sacka' Shite ..

[Stateside]

I never got into this scene for rarity, I got into it for the music, sure I have bought bootlegs, how else was I supposed to get to listen to great records at home. I never had the money to spend on rare stuff especially as a student, even now that I could afford certain records I still couldn't justify to myself spending more than say £100 on one 45. I have some quite rare stuff that I have picked up just by luck and nothing else, which is fine.

If people want to spend 4 figures on a 45 good luck to them, it is a bit like collecting anything that has potential to increase in value, like antiques and in a way northern soul collecting is a bit like that, with market forces being led by the dj's who can influence the value of a 45. But as is always the case with buying anything off a dealer, they will rarely give you the same figure you paid for it, if you were to sell it back to them and thats business.

[paultp]

A 25 count box of Tony Hestor is what I turned up; They are almost gone now, and I have done very well with em'; $340 for the last one 2 months ago....

Well, can I say a personal thank you for finding them. I own a record I never thought I would and got it for a price that I thought very reasonable at the time, I doubt the value has been affected in the long term either. "I Just Can't Leave You" makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand up every time I hear it. Good on you and thanks again.

Edited June 25, 2006 by paultp

[Guest]

Interesting one this I have also spoken to Julian (lilpedler) about these. What I am interested in is if they were indeed done years ago with the same stampers and so are identical are they infact originals? What if they were done with the same stampers but on Tuesday when the first ones of the the press were on the Monday? Would that make them originals or is it just the passage of timethat calls these into doubt?

What about originals that were pressent weeks and hundreds of miles apart like the many with east and west coast versions.

These records are being questioned because of the quality of the paper. What about records like the superlatives the light blue ones are considered originals but the yellow ones (still originals) are rarer and so more pricey. surely they weren't pressed at the same time.

Interested in peoples view really

Re; the paper, that could be down to the printer if the record owner wanted a cheap deal and was not to fussed about the colour, the printer will then use paper that comes to hand, red, yellow, matt or shiny whatever, all destined for the records first press.....just a thought.

[Guest]

Re; the paper, that could be down to the printer if the record owner wanted a cheap deal and was not to fussed about the colour, the printer will then use paper that comes to hand, red, yellow, matt or shiny whatever, all destined for the records first press.....just a thought.

Paper technology has moved on over 4 decades, if you want to replicate the sixties paper Delfi used in the 60s. I don't think you could: The process and the material and the machines have long been replaced.

Soul Sam brought a trade to me Saturday before Lifeline Niter. Whilst watchin the footie, I looked at Major Lance - You Don't Want Me No More - Okeh issue and I said "that don't look like a real one". Stamped in ZSP matrix and Sam says he had it in his collection for years. So we checked it outr against a genuine Major Lance Srock and a major lance small 45 early seventies reissue.

Soul Sams "Original" had a matrix of ZSP118541-1E

Certain original stock copy has a matrix of ZSP118541-1B

The small 45 70s repro had the matrix of ZSP118541-1E

Someone had copied the original labels and stuck them on the 2nd. press and made himself a huge profit. It was very neatly and very cleverly done. But the paper gave it away.

On investigation we realised all the 70s ZSP Columbia reissue the matrix ended in and E or F. The originals we had time to check ended in a B or C.

There is always someone someone spotting the opportunity to make a good profit from any collectable not only records. If you can tweek a fake to resemble the original. ie Jerry Cook and Alexander Patten, Marsha Gee by adding the "daisy", "nashville matrix" to the Gary Haines. It goes on and on..

My point on the Delphi 45 labels is ALL the releases including the Oxford Knights are made from grained 60s texture paper. The one for sale so frequently on e-bay certainly isn't made from the same paper, I would guess it's more like late 90s paper smooth shiny and grain free .But I am NOT a paper expert: But also I won't buy the Oxford Knights on that style a and sell it as an original.

As for RUMOURS, perhaps Pete or some could repost his list of records to avoid at all costs because they are flooding into the country. 3 years on we could fairly judge his prediction.

My point is, if the very lucky few took this list serious they could have parted with Nabay, Terri Goodnight, Robbie Lawson to name a few in panic.

I ended up with 2 copies of Magnetics - Lady In Green within 7 days given to me by seasoned collectors who are considered top DJs. I suspect on the back of copies being "found" postings.

Pete's a lovely guy, and fun to talk to. And I sure these rumours are not instigated by Pete alone. As the long list of "untouchables" was not instigated by him.

As for "sending me" money, that was a very crap joke: But we have all gained on the vast majority of our record purchases over the years.

I think rumours much be treated as such until proven otherwise. I if anyone out there has quanity on Sam Dees I certainly want some, and whoever wins our copy on auction..we'll gladly buy it back at the same price, if the value gets destroyed in the near future.

[Guest Dan]

Paper technology has moved on over 4 decades, if you want to replicate the sixties paper Delfi used in the 60s. I don't think you could: The process and the material and the machines have long been replaced.

Soul Sam brought a trade to me Saturday before Lifeline Niter. Whilst watchin the footie, I looked at Major Lance - You Don't Want Me No More - Okeh issue and I said "that don't look like a real one". Stamped in ZSP matrix and Sam says he had it in his collection for years. So we checked it outr against a genuine Major Lance Srock and a major lance small 45 early seventies reissue.

Soul Sams "Original" had a matrix of ZSP118541-1E

Certain original stock copy has a matrix of ZSP118541-1B

The small 45 70s repro had the matrix of ZSP118541-1E

Someone had copied the original labels and stuck them on the 2nd. press and made himself a huge profit. It was very neatly and very cleverly done. But the paper gave it away.

On investigation we realised all the 70s ZSP Columbia reissue the matrix ended in and E or F. The originals we had time to check ended in a B or C.

There is always someone someone spotting the opportunity to make a good profit from any collectable not only records. If you can tweek a fake to resemble the original. ie Jerry Cook and Alexander Patten, Marsha Gee by adding the "daisy", "nashville matrix" to the Gary Haines. It goes on and on..

My point on the Delphi 45 labels is ALL the releases including the Oxford Knights are made from grained 60s texture paper. The one for sale so frequently on e-bay certainly isn't made from the same paper, I would guess it's more like late 90s paper smooth shiny and grain free .But I am NOT a paper expert: But also I won't buy the Oxford Knights on that style a and sell it as an original.

As for RUMOURS, perhaps Pete or some could repost his list of records to avoid at all costs because they are flooding into the country. 3 years on we could fairly judge his prediction.

My point is, if the very lucky few took this list serious they could have parted with Nabay, Terri Goodnight, Robbie Lawson to name a few in panic.

I ended up with 2 copies of Magnetics - Lady In Green within 7 days given to me by seasoned collectors who are considered top DJs. I suspect on the back of copies being "found" postings.

Pete's a lovely guy, and fun to talk to. And I sure these rumours are not instigated by Pete alone. As the long list of "untouchables" was not instigated by him.

As for "sending me" money, that was a very crap joke: But we have all gained on the vast majority of our record purchases over the years.

I think rumours much be treated as such until proven otherwise. I if anyone out there has quanity on Sam Dees I certainly want some, and whoever wins our copy on auction..we'll gladly buy it back at the same price, if the value gets destroyed in the near future.

very fair post john. also very interesting. good to have you contributing your knowledge etc

[Pete S]

Paper technology has moved on over 4 decades, if you want to replicate the sixties paper Delfi used in the 60s. I don't think you could: The process and the material and the machines have long been replaced.

Soul Sam brought a trade to me Saturday before Lifeline Niter. Whilst watchin the footie, I looked at Major Lance - You Don't Want Me No More - Okeh issue and I said "that don't look like a real one". Stamped in ZSP matrix and Sam says he had it in his collection for years. So we checked it outr against a genuine Major Lance Srock and a major lance small 45 early seventies reissue.

Soul Sams "Original" had a matrix of ZSP118541-1E

Certain original stock copy has a matrix of ZSP118541-1B

The small 45 70s repro had the matrix of ZSP118541-1E

Someone had copied the original labels and stuck them on the 2nd. press and made himself a huge profit. It was very neatly and very cleverly done. But the paper gave it away.

On investigation we realised all the 70s ZSP Columbia reissue the matrix ended in and E or F. The originals we had time to check ended in a B or C.

There is always someone someone spotting the opportunity to make a good profit from any collectable not only records. If you can tweek a fake to resemble the original. ie Jerry Cook and Alexander Patten, Marsha Gee by adding the "daisy", "nashville matrix" to the Gary Haines. It goes on and on..

My point on the Delphi 45 labels is ALL the releases including the Oxford Knights are made from grained 60s texture paper. The one for sale so frequently on e-bay certainly isn't made from the same paper, I would guess it's more like late 90s paper smooth shiny and grain free .But I am NOT a paper expert: But also I won't buy the Oxford Knights on that style a and sell it as an original.

As for RUMOURS, perhaps Pete or some could repost his list of records to avoid at all costs because they are flooding into the country. 3 years on we could fairly judge his prediction.

My point is, if the very lucky few took this list serious they could have parted with Nabay, Terri Goodnight, Robbie Lawson to name a few in panic.

I ended up with 2 copies of Magnetics - Lady In Green within 7 days given to me by seasoned collectors who are considered top DJs. I suspect on the back of copies being "found" postings.

Pete's a lovely guy, and fun to talk to. And I sure these rumours are not instigated by Pete alone. As the long list of "untouchables" was not instigated by him.

As for "sending me" money, that was a very crap joke: But we have all gained on the vast majority of our record purchases over the years.

I think rumours much be treated as such until proven otherwise. I if anyone out there has quanity on Sam Dees I certainly want some, and whoever wins our copy on auction..we'll gladly buy it back at the same price, if the value gets destroyed in the near future.

The Sam Dees are supposedly from the same source as The Montclairs a couple of years back.

[Guest]

The Sam Dees are supposedly from the same source as The Montclairs a couple of years back.

NO worries then, The Montclairs has strongly bounced back from it's £500 low, like most of them do. Pete, have you still got that list of 45s you posted 3 years back, I'm interested to see if you are the Nostradamus of vinyl.

[Soulsmith]

I ended up with 2 copies of Magnetics - Lady In Green within 7 days given to me by seasoned collectors who are considered top DJs. I suspect on the back of copies being "found" postings.

That probably owes more to a seperate rumour that has also been circulating for some time......that it is in fact a very bad record.

[Pete S]

NO worries then, The Montclairs has strongly bounced back from it's £500 low, like most of them do. Pete, have you still got that list of 45s you posted 3 years back, I'm interested to see if you are the Nostradamus of vinyl.

No of course not, it was written like this, not pre-planned, it went to a very closed shop internet group and would have disappeared without trace if your mate hadn't sent it to you.

Also John, you automatically presumed that this post was a post against you and your auctions, that is severe paranoia. I've told you before I don't read your auctions, I didn't know you'd got one for sale and if you think I'd make a statement such as this just to f*ck it up for you then you don't know me at all.

[Billy Freemantle]

This has turned into a very interesting thread in more ways than one. But could I ask two ot three questions of the clearly very knowledgeable folk on his thread?

1.What exactly was the rumor?

2. Is it Oxford Knights ( as in the round table) or Nights (as in Arabian)?

3. I forget

[Guest Dan]

This has turned into a very interesting thread in more ways than one. But could I ask two ot three questions of the clearly very knowledgeable folk on his thread?

1.What exactly was the rumor?

2. Is it Oxford Knights ( as in the round table) or Nights (as in Arabian)?

3. I forget

[Guest Baz]

This has turned into a very interesting thread in more ways than one. But could I ask two ot three questions of the clearly very knowledgeable folk on his thread?

1.What exactly was the rumor?

2. Is it Oxford Knights ( as in the round table) or Nights (as in Arabian)?

3. I forget

The rumor is that the Oxford Knights (thats answered your second question ) for sale by lil-pedler on ebay are all 'boots' im not convinced and seem to think people are getting them mixed up with the 'shiney' paper boots that were about, I've checked the paper on mine (from Lil pedler) along side a 'old' Oxford Knights and my Prophets and they are exately the same, no differnce in the paper what so ever! and Mark (billytheboot) will back me up with this too. I reckon its just rumors started by people then gets totally blown out of preportion, Maybe Lil-pedler wouldnt sell multiple copys at knocked down prices, so it gets people backs up and these rumors start

as to your 3rd question I forget too