How Did They Do It ?

[Guest Dave Ward]

This a question that's bothered me for years. Hopefully some of you Vinyl collectors or Soul Connoisseurs can answer it. Some of my Northern Soul discs are from small recording studios, with little chance of selling more than couple of hundred records, Yet there are horns, strings, percussion, bass and lead guitarists, backing singers, not to mention producers and writers etc. Was it a labour of love, a long shot gamble. How did they do it ?   

[Roburt]

... Yet there are horns, strings, percussion, bass and lead guitarists, backing singers, not to mention producers and writers etc. Was it a labour of love, a long shot gamble. How did they do it ?   

Well I don't know how most small studios got everyone involved on their recording sessions without breakin the bank, but at least one southern based studio made use of the kids in the local college band to ensure brass, strings & the like were in evidence on their recordings. These visiting players supplemented the studio house band. Backing singers weren't usually a problem as loads of guys (gals) looking to land themselves a session would first help out on other projects to get some studio experience / impress a producer. 

[Windlesoul]

In 1960s North Carolina and Va, a number of soul orientated recording artists were middle class whites or integrated bands with a black lead singer, sometimes college students (and often music students) who were used to playing large venues and frat dos.They came with their own band, the bigger the horn section the better, and 6-10 members weren't unusual. Tempests are a good example size-wise -remember that line up on their Lp cover!

 

These beach and garage bands provided their own vocals and instrumentation in the studio, and generally didn't use other session musicians. Strings n things didn't really go down that well at that time as bands in the south east were a lot more interested by what was coming out of Memphis and Muscle Shoals than the big city sound, and the also didn't suit the budget approach of the garage band profile. By the time full orchestration was the 'soul norm' in the late sixties, several (but not all) had already moved on to contribute to the development of psychedelia and southern rock, or members had been drafted to Vietnam.

Edited November 21, 2013 by Windlesoul

[Dave Rimmer]

My all time favourite record is a prime example of this.

 

The Magnetics - I Have A Girl - Ra Sel

 

A one off single by the group as far as I know, a label that had 9 releases (Although I only know what seven of them are).

 

Yet the Magnetics single has a full on production and arrangement. Who paid for it all ? And more to the point, why ? They must have been completely optimistic about getting a hit and getting their money back

[KevH]

The full production,ie horns strings etc,probably harks back to the big band days and what was "expected" if you were serious musicians.

I'm guessing the beach era is a kickback against all of that,wanting to make a different sound,much like the punk movement of the 70's in England. 

[Guest in town Mikey]

On - Standing in the shadows of Motown - one of the musicians says (I think) they were paid about 5 dollars per session. And these guys were pretty much at the top of the tree in black music circles.

So you could get a horn section for less than maybe 30 dollars? Or a few violinists.

 

And maybe those guys were part of the group which would then reduce costs a little more.

 

30 dollars would have been a nice sum in the early 60s. But not completely out of the reach of a few resourceful souls.

 

There is also a fable, I dont know how true, that in Cool off its the kids in the garage rattling a bike chain that makes up part of the backing track. Perhaps they were paid in popsicles 

[Windlesoul]

That familiar 'chinking' noise in Troy Marrs' Rhythm Message was somebody whacking a strung up Coke bottle - now that's how to record on a budget! Actually though, the production on this is pretty full on overall.

[Guest Paul]

People used lots of favours and non-union sessions, after hours lockout rates, cash deals, sometimes with semi-pro musicians and students etc.

It could be quite cheap, especially if recording live or basic multi-tracking, because they were mostly better prepared and / or rehearsed in those days and could work faster. As time went by sessions started to take longer and many musicians were less active (because there was less regular work for musicians in clubs etc) so they needed more time to get results.

It got to the point when producers and engineers could spend a whole day or more just trying to get a good drum sound. Things like that killed the all-important spontaneity, the spark was gone, things took longer and cost more - and that was bad news for the small-time indie producers because studio rates had also risen.

It goes to show that new technology can send human skills backwards sometimes.

I love the technology but the truth is that some of our favourite old tracks were recorded in an hour or less.

We've lost the plot.
 

[Spacehopper]

slightly off topic but agree with that last comment about technology...most 'recording' singers today wouldnt last two minutes in a gospel choir from back then!..but they dont need to they ALL use autoque

 

as cars get better the drivers get worse..and on the news this mornin people talkin about using google for reference instead of books and the thing we are lookin for doesnt sink in..we jusy copy it and forget

 

sadly the more intelligent the inventors the more backward the people

[Md Records]

The Magnetics track was on Ray Seldons Ra Sel label, but used Joe Stevensons (of Del Val records) imperial sound studio, which Joe had built himself, being a physics teacher. With his school connections, he used a lot of local kids to record e.g. Gene Woodbury, and I suspect the horn sections et al would come from the school as well. Nobody is sure why this record is "rare" as 500 would have been pressed up, so there is always a possibility of some boxes turning up. Joe would press up 500 of a title, if it sold he would get some more pressed. He claims that Kenny Gamble heard the "Dynamic Three" being played on the radio, and as he was a big player in the local music scene, stopped it getting further airplay, therefore killing the record.

 

Des

[Barry]

I remember reading Barry White's autobiography and him saying he got $11 for doing handclaps on a session in the early 60's which was a couple of bob then.

[Guest Dave Ward]

Thanks for the answers and opinions in response to my question. It's always amazed me, the quality, depth of sound and production quality on these low budget recordings.

[Staceys Dad]

That familiar 'chinking' noise in Troy Marrs' Rhythm Message was somebody whacking a strung up Coke bottle - now that's how to record on a budget! Actually though, the production on this is pretty full on overall.

 

but were those bottles originals........

[Robbk]

We found financiers who "wanted to get into the music business, and LIED to them, telling them that "this song can'[t miss being a big hit!"  "You'll make millions if it hits big!"  Lots of suckers were found.

[Ian Dewhirst]

We found financiers who "wanted to get into the music business, and LIED to them, telling them that "this song can'[t miss being a big hit!"  "You'll make millions if it hits big!"  Lots of suckers were found.

 

Yep. The music business always had that veneer of stardust about it. I can't tell you how many normally very conservative rich guys lost all sense of perspective when they were financing productions for their new 'investments' LOL....

 

Ian D 

[Guest Paul]

We found financiers who "wanted to get into the music business, and LIED to them, telling them that "this song can'[t miss being a big hit!"  "You'll make millions if it hits big!"  Lots of suckers were found.

 

 

 

And very often people even convinced (or fooled?) themselves that a record would be a hit.

 

We've all said "this is the one, I just can't fail with this one" ...I know a few people who'd say that every month.

But it's nice to have faith.

 

[Frankie Crocker]

My all time favourite record is a prime example of this.

 

The Magnetics - I Have A Girl - Ra Sel

 

A one off single by the group as far as I know, a label that had 9 releases (Although I only know what seven of them are).

 

Yet the Magnetics single has a full on production and arrangement. Who paid for it all ? And more to the point, why ? They must have been completely optimistic about getting a hit and getting their money back

Some of the bands were in the business to make music, High School groups of friends that played to entertain and be part of the local social scene. Many were really talented and could cut a track in a few takes. They were never going to become rich making local sales on minor labels even with the backing of a local radio station so there must have been other factors. The chance of being picked up by a major label such as ABC, CBS, RCA, MGM etc would be a motivating factor as this was where serious money could be made.Some cuts were vanity projects like today's self-published books. Even the X Factor would have been at work with bands simply wanting a bit of exposure to be in the limelight. The talent in the 60's was abundant with church singers, instrumentalists and studio professionals combining to produce great music despite the limited prospects of financial success.

[Robbk]

People used lots of favours and non-union sessions, after hours lockout rates, cash deals, sometimes with semi-pro musicians and students etc.

It could be quite cheap, especially if recording live or basic multi-tracking, because they were mostly better prepared and / or rehearsed in those days and could work faster. As time went by sessions started to take longer and many musicians were less active (because there was less regular work for musicians in clubs etc) so they needed more time to get results.

It got to the point when producers and engineers could spend a whole day or more just trying to get a good drum sound. Things like that killed the all-important spontaneity, the spark was gone, things took longer and cost more - and that was bad news for the small-time indie producers because studio rates had also risen.

It goes to show that new technology can send human skills backwards sometimes.

I love the technology but the truth is that some of our favourite old tracks were recorded in an hour or less.

We've lost the plot.

 

Yes!  LOTS of non-union cash deals.

[Robbk]

The Magnetics track was on Ray Seldons Ra Sel label, but used Joe Stevensons (of Del Val records) imperial sound studio, which Joe had built himself, being a physics teacher. With his school connections, he used a lot of local kids to record e.g. Gene Woodbury, and I suspect the horn sections et al would come from the school as well. Nobody is sure why this record is "rare" as 500 would have been pressed up, so there is always a possibility of some boxes turning up. Joe would press up 500 of a title, if it sold he would get some more pressed. He claims that Kenny Gamble heard the "Dynamic Three" being played on the radio, and as he was a big player in the local music scene, stopped it getting further airplay, therefore killing the record.

 

Des

But lots of full boxes were ruined completely from heat and storage warps, water damage, and lots of other boxes were melted down to re-use the plastic.  Lots of other full boxes were probably thrown away, and ended up in landfills.

[Windlesoul]

Major labels taking advantage of inexperienced young musicians? Never...as Brian Mann and Chris Cooke from Novas Nine told me for It's Better to Cry :

 

BM: “Pain” was the second song I had ever written and took me about 30 minutes. The first local release was a deal the band made with Arthur Smith to cut 500 custom label Heritage 45s. The drummer took the acetate to Big Way’s, the number one radio station in Charlotte. Two of the DJ's, Jack Gale and Long John Silver, liked “Pain”. It was their pick hit of the week and made it to number 4 on their charts. They had contacts. We had three record contract offers. We chose ABC Paramount.  The only difference between the acetate which was recorded at Arthur Smith Studio in Charlotte (recorded on a 4 track Ampex 1" tape) and the ABC version was the editing and mastering. The 4 track original was sent to ABC, who obviously got their publisher, PAMCO Music and the ABC studios in New York to master the project. They cut out three bars of the instrumental bridge and that was that.

 

CC: We were young naive kids and missed things in the contract. Our first quarter royalties were $28,000 at 4 cents per record....do the math! But we had a minus nett of $187. They said we owed them for all promotional expenses and printing.

 

BM:  Signing was a huge mistake. They stole the song from us and gave it to ABC Dunhill's Grass Roots.  The whole deal was to screw nine green behind the ears musicians from Mooresville, NC, and give it to Grass Roots, who sold 800,000 on their "Lovin' Things" album and countless millions overseas. We were fucked. At that time, ABC/Dunhill was a hot record division, and was signing acts like Grass Roots, Blood Sweat and Tears, Chicago, Cold Blood and others. “Pain” became a world wide hit for Grass Roots. Our band got shit out of the song and I was screwed out of thousands of dollars of royalities. Our original tape which was procured by ABC Paramount's publisher PAMCO Music was probably sent to Universal, when they were bought out.

[Guest scottie]

My all time favourite record is a prime example of this.

 

The Magnetics - I Have A Girl - Ra Sel

 

A one off single by the group as far as I know, a label that had 9 releases (Although I only know what seven of them are).

 

Yet the Magnetics single has a full on production and arrangement. Who paid for it all ? And more to the point, why ? They must have been completely optimistic about getting a hit and getting their money back

brilliant track Dave has has all the production values of a major label

[Twoshoes]

This a question that's bothered me for years. Hopefully some of you Vinyl collectors or Soul Connoisseurs can answer it. Some of my Northern Soul discs are from small recording studios, with little chance of selling more than couple of hundred records, Yet there are horns, strings, percussion, bass and lead guitarists, backing singers, not to mention producers and writers etc. Was it a labour of love, a long shot gamble. How did they do it ?   

Great thread mate, I've always wondered too,

[Windlesoul]

Chuck Shipton of The Generation (aka Soul Generation, due to the cover up title and the Grapevine release) told me they recorded "Hold On" at Doc Johnson's home made recording studio in Wilmington 67 / 68. He had built it out of his garage:

 

“Randy Luther (the group leader)  picked “Hold On” to be recorded at Dr. Hubert Johnson’s recording studio around 1967/68. Mockingbird was the studio label. Doc Johnson was a doctor in Wilmington who had a love for music and enjoyed recording as a hobby. He had built a recording studio in a single car size garage on the back of his house at basement level. It had a small control room in it, say 5 by 10 feet, and an old 16 track reel to reel recorder. A local DJ called Jay Howard was the sound engineer and did the mixing on a 16 channel tube type mixer.  We recorded the rhythm tracks for “Hold On” in two takes.  The vocals were added later.  “Lonely Sea” (originally done by the Ventures) was Dr. Johnson’s favourite even though it was on the “B”side.  We did several takes because Doc wanted the drums to do a large symbol crash like the waves crashing.  I thought it was over the top because the crash was so overpowering, but we did it the way Doc wanted because he wasn’t charging us studio time.  Jay Howard was the prime time DJ on WGNI radio station and he played our record all the time.  He even used “Lonely Sea” for a lead in to the news.”

Edited November 22, 2013 by Windlesoul

[Guest scottie]

just been listening to "theres room for me " by jesse davis dont know much about the artist or how big the jaboth label was   but what an arrangement the production levels are through the roof.

[Soulstu]

Brilliant thread! You don't just get an answer from the SS crowd - you get the full story. 

And yep, the Magnetics track is a stonker, lush and jazzy!

[Guest sharmo 1]

I think also a lot of these recordings were total family affairs , I'm thinking about records like " What love can do " by the honey B's out of Tulsa in Oklahoma , the band were all brothers and sisters who played all the instuments and sang and hired a small amount of time in charity studios which was in their town. Eventually 1500 copy's were pressed but it still proves hard to get hold of even the Timmion releases are all but gone. a lot of bands were family's and a bunch of mates using old family members such as uncles and aunties  and no doubt some singers from the local church would stop by to help out. more sense of community and wanting to help out and encourage youth back then .Sharmo.

[Dobber]

Great question! Ive also spent many an hour pondering on this,another example is court davis-try to think what your doing-east coast,there must have been dozens of musicians in that session,and it was shoved on as a after thought b side,because the record was released twice,once with and then without ! If you tried to book a recording session now with that many musicians,producers and studio time,it would run into thousands! And it certainly wouldn't warrant a small run of CD presses!

[Haydn]

 

And very often people even convinced (or fooled?) themselves that a record would be a hit.

 

We've all said "this is the one, I just can't fail with this one" ...I know a few people who'd say that every month.

But it's nice to have faith.

How uncanny that the records I bought blind in the 80's were equally welcomed.

I convinced myself that they were good because I had splashed out on them, thus convincing myself I had some great tunes in the box!

[Pete S]

Great question! Ive also spent many an hour pondering on this,another example is court davis-try to think what your doing-east coast,there must have been dozens of musicians in that session,and it was shoved on as a after thought b side,because the record was released twice,once with and then without ! If you tried to book a recording session now with that many musicians,producers and studio time,it would run into thousands! And it certainly wouldn't warrant a small run of CD presses!

 

Ah but if you listen to the version Andy Rix had (I still have it somewhere) with no strings, it sounds as basic as any other band track - two or three strings on top, you've got a big sound.  So I don't think there's dozens of musicians on that particular track, not like on a Teddy Randazzo production for instance