The Roots Of Soul - Beyond Doo-Wop

[Tai-pan]

Might be my age and the fact that i'm a group soul nut, I've found over recent years I've retreated into the early 60's, then the 50's.

 

I've now found myself listening to black vocal group harmony from the 40's. It's post war black harmony groups. Most of which were recording for a white audience, then suddenly The Ravens in 1949 recorded an unreleased track 'Please Believe Me' and in the same session the very rare release on National records 'Count Every Star'. Could it be this release that set Doo-Wop and later Soul in train. Certainly, it was pivotal in black artists breaking free of their white audience and an explosion of recordings for a black audience, Doo-Wop and Soul was born.

 

Could it be that Jimmy Ricks and Warren Suttles are actually the fore fathers of our music?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 20, 2013 by Tai-Pan

[Robbk]

Maybe it's your age, or just changing taste.  it's always nice to learn about good things you never before knew existed.  Luckily for me, I started listening to such sounds from my parents' 78 records at the beginning of the 1950s.  I even go back to late 1930s music (admittedly, mostly Blues and Gospel Music.  I followed Black American music through the '60s.  Unfortunately, I couldn't learn to like it in the '70s, when it happened, and still can't stand most of '70s Soul to this day.  I won't even get into post '70s.

[Roburt]

I know very little about the history of doo-wop groups and (like you) until the last few years generally didn't find time to listen to the tracks such groups cut back in the day.

However, I have spent time researching the Baltimore black music scene of the late 1940's and 1950's. Baltimore always had a great entertainment scene, boasting numerous vibrant clubs and one of the big chitlin-circuit theatres; the Royal.

The strange thing about the Baltimore club scene back then was that, although a lot of the best early doo-wop groups were from the city, the club scene for the most part stuck with jazz acts right through the 40's & 50's. Even when local groups had national success, they would only really play the city's theatres on a regular basis. The local star groups included the likes of the Swallows, (Sonny Til &) the Orioles & the Cardinals. National outfits such as the Drifters (Clyde McPhatters incarnation), the Flamingos, the Ravens, the Spaniels and the Four Fellows came to play venues such as the Royal Theatre and Astor Theatre (even the Vocaleers got to play the Royal in summer 53).

So local fans got to see all the top doo-wop acts but the likes of Bill Doggett, Don Gardner, Sonny Stitt, Earl Bostic and all the local jazz outfits held sway in local clubs for the most part.

The big local & national doo-wop groups inspired many kids on the street corners of the city's projects to try their hand at harmony singing and so a 2nd wave of groups such as the Plants followed on. 

No doubt there are a number of doo-wop group tracks that laid the foundation for the acts & sounds that followed in the 60's BUT it would need recommendations from the likes of RobbK to highlight which recordings back then helped set the scene for the creative explosion that came in the 60's.

It would be good to learn which tracks turned out to be the most pivotal in moving black music forward during that decade or so. 

 

[jocko]

I know very little about the history of doo-wop groups and (like you) until the last few years generally didn't find time to listen to the tracks such groups cut back in the day.

However, I have spent time researching the Baltimore black music scene of the late 1940's and 1950's. Baltimore always had a great entertainment scene, boasting numerous vibrant clubs and one of the big chitlin-circuit theatres; the Royal.

The strange thing about the Baltimore club scene back then was that, although a lot of the best early doo-wop groups were from the city, the club scene for the most part stuck with jazz acts right through the 40's & 50's. Even when local groups had national success, they would only really play the city's theatres on a regular basis. The local star groups included the likes of the Swallows, (Sonny Til &) the Orioles & the Cardinals. National outfits such as the Drifters (Clyde McPhatters incarnation), the Flamingos, the Ravens, the Spaniels and the Four Fellows came to play venues such as the Royal Theatre and Astor Theatre (even the Vocaleers got to play the Royal in summer 53).

So local fans got to see all the top doo-wop acts but the likes of Bill Doggett, Don Gardner, Sonny Stitt, Earl Bostic and all the local jazz outfits held sway in local clubs for the most part.

The big local & national doo-wop groups inspired many kids on the street corners of the city's projects to try their hand at harmony singing and so a 2nd wave of groups such as the Plants followed on. 

No doubt there are a number of doo-wop group tracks that laid the foundation for the acts & sounds that followed in the 60's BUT it would need recommendations from the likes of RobbK to highlight which recordings back then helped set the scene for the creative explosion that came in the 60's.

It would be good to learn which tracks turned out to be the most pivotal in moving black music forward during that decade or so.

 

Fascinating stuff, and despite your paranoia on my intentions,  I like your writing, always have since the mags, and appreciate your research. It would be good if you credited your sources each time though, something I have a thing about

 

Its just your dodgy uninformed quips about Northern soul people I'm not so keen on.

 

Just thought I would clear that up in case you thought I was being sarcastic in below. I do like to talk about music, just don;t do it enough on here.

Are there any good books on the 40's stuff? I have a few on the 50's groups and some on the Gospel/Blues histories, but none that I can think link through 40's (or earlier) to 60's vocal groups, I do have a couple of general academic tomes on the history of the  whole Black music thing but haven't been inspired to start them as they look a bit intense.

 

It would be interesting to know if any of the singers from 40's made it through to 60's and had any reasonable success in soul days, I suspect age would be against them. And any recommendations of CD's of the 40's stuff.

 

Not just directed at John obviously and not necessarrily expecting answers to all, but the kind of thing that would be interesting to tie together so something to read on all this, even liner notes on CD's would be good. And happy to report back once I have read anything.

 

[Roburt]

Lots of doo-wop groups (or their members) had long music careers as age didn't seem of paramount importance to record companies back then.

Lots of groups from that era reinvented themselves though, with new names, new stage outfits and different stage shows (lots just including a few old hits in their act plus lots of Motown / recent soul hit songs).

So lots of artists such as Sonny Til (who started out in 1947) had mainstream music careers right through to the 70's and then got on the 'Oldies Show' bandwagon that grew from those times. 

One instance of a group carrying on for many years was a Baltimore outfit who started out as Bobby Hall & the Kings in 1950. Group politics soon played a major part though and 4 years later the group had a new lead singer / leader and were known just as the Kings (though they also had a record out as the Ramblers). By the 60's they had morphed into Little Hooks & the Kings and though the members took day jobs they continued on as a performing outfit.

They cut more tracks in 1972 and funky soul tracks such as "Give The Drummer Some More" were a world away from their doo-wop roots ........

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xu01cO0qTdk

Edited November 20, 2013 by Roburt

[Roburt]

A 60's outing from Little Hooks & the Kings -- "Jerk Train" .............

BTW, Little Hooks (Adolphus Holcomb) had been with the group since their early days ...........

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_42jZRcpkA

[jocko]

 

Lots of doo-wop groups (or their members) had long music careers as age didn't seem of paramount importance to record companies back then.

Lots of groups from that era reinvented themselves though, with new names, new stage outfits and different stage shows (lots just including a few old hits in their act plus lots of Motown / recent soul hit songs).

So lots of artists such as Sonny Til (who started out in 1947) had mainstream music careers right through to the 70's and then got on the 'Oldies Show' bandwagon that grew from those times. 

One instance of a group carrying on for many years was a Baltimore outfit who started out as Bobby Hall & the Kings in 1950. Group politics soon played a major part though and 4 years later the group had a new lead singer / leader and were known just as the Kings (though they also had a record out as the Ramblers). By the 60's they had morphed into Little Hooks & the Kings and though the members took day jobs they continued on as a performing outfit.

They cut more tracks in 1972 and funky soul tracks such as "Give The Drummer Some More" were a world away from their doo-wop roots ........

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xu01cO0qTdk

Didn't some of the oldies shows start in 60's, thought I had read somewhere that Yvonne Baker recorded after revised success on that circuit, which I assume was regional.

I suppose I was meaning did any major act in 60's, have heritage back to then, Clyde McPhatter and Sonny Til you have name, although was Sonny Til not still in Orioles for most of 60's, did they have any relevance to the revival circuit then, or did they stay as stars right through. I cannot remember when Jackie Wilson started, and obviously Ray Charles, so yes there are some. Will skim read some of the books tonight and come back with names.

I suppose the bigger question I had not thought of, is when did the Doo Wop style start, i.e is there a clear connection from groups of 40's to 50's, which there obviously is, and how far did it go back. Was it all gospel groups originated?

I appreciate this is definitely in books, but it may of interest to some. Looks like Andy has done some research that may be worth sharing, and Robb lived through most of it so would be good to bring it together on here.

Again any CD's to recommend of the 40's stuff?

[Roburt]

.... Clyde McPhatter and Sonny Til you have name, although was Sonny Til not still in Orioles for most of 60's, did they have any relevance to the revival circuit then, or did they stay as stars right through. 

Sonny Til alternated between performing as a solo act (with the likes of Virgie Till as a member of his review) and performing with a set of Orioles.

If he went out as a solo singer (with backing vocalists) he kept more of the club fee for himself I believe,

if he went out as Sonny Til & the Orioles he (no doubt) had to pay the other guys a bit more.

I do know that membership of the Orioles was ever-changing through to the mid 60's. Sonny even 'sacked' the entire group (one time being as early as 1955) and recruited whole new outfits to join him as the Orioles. It's my understanding that if a decent 'Oldies show' tour invite came Sonny Til's way, he would assemble a set of Orioles and take the booking (as the booking would be for the group and the fee for the whole tour a decent amount). Can't say I know when he (& the group) first started doing the 'oldies shows; circuit.

 

Marv Goldberg's site is just about the best for info on early black groups and their histories.

He has put up a 4/5 part series on the Orioles and that gives full details of how things went for Sonny & the other guys through to the 60's and beyond ........

https://www.uncamarvy.com/Orioles/orioles3.html

That states .......... Sonny put together a new Orioles group ..... they got an engagement at the Apollo Theater (for an "Old Goldies" show) that began on September 29, 1961. The other acts were Little Anthony, Shirley & Lee, the Teenagers, Little Joe, the Valentines, Charlie & Ray, and Robert & Johnny.

 

I would guess that the show was just about the first 'Oldies Show' that the Orioles performed on. Sonny & whoever else was an Oriole back then still tried to continue on as a everyday group though and kept on with gigs during which they would perform (other acts) recent hits as well.  

Edited November 20, 2013 by Roburt

[Dave Moore]

To create a trail from soul music to the beginning of the doo wop era is easy to do. Just like it's easy to trace it back to Rock n Roll, jazz, blues and whole gamut of other genres. But to find a group/artist that were/was around at the real beginning of black group vocal harmony, say like The Dixie Hummingbirds for instance, that stayed the pace until the highs of the soul era, say the mid 60s, is difficult I'd say. If you take the defining doo wop era as post Rock n Roll, now that's a different matter. but I'm racking my addled brain for an artist who enjoyed any success in the earliest days (Louis Jordan as an example in 1940) that was still enjoying any kind of success by 1965.

Are we looking for the birth of soul here or are we looking for it's foetus? I'm not quite sure? Good thread. ;-)

Regards,

Dave

[Barry]

I've found myself doing much the same, been buying all kinds of black music of late, jazz, doo-wop, blues etc - I've diversified that much on occasion I think I'm actually beginning to get me head around a lot of white stuff that I never thought I would like let alone buy.

[Roburt]

Sonny Til & the Orioles were well established before the end of the 40's and are credited as one of the groups that helped set the doo-wop standard. They were still going & making 'up to date' records into the late 60's (THOUGH they were followers and not leaders in setting trends by then).

Lots of early to mid 50's groups maintained a cutting edge sound into the 60's (& some even into the 70's) .... the likes of Lee Andrews & the Hearts, Hank Ballard & the Midnighters, the Meadowlarks / Larks plus Little Anthony & the Imperials spring to mind. The Drifters were around for years & years as well but as totally different outfits adopted the name, I don't think they can really count.

Edited November 20, 2013 by Roburt

[jocko]

To create a trail from soul music to the beginning of the doo wop era is easy to do. Just like it's easy to trace it back to Rock n Roll, jazz, blues and whole gamut of other genres. But to find a group/artist that were/was around at the real beginning of black group vocal harmony, say like The Dixie Hummingbirds for instance, that stayed the pace until the highs of the soul era, say the mid 60s, is difficult I'd say. If you take the defining doo wop era as post Rock n Roll, now that's a different matter. but I'm racking my addled brain for an artist who enjoyed any success in the earliest days (Louis Jordan as an example in 1940) that was still enjoying any kind of success by 1965.

I think that was the crux of my question, as I say I wondered if there were any non gospel groups and when that started.

Interesting in Doo Wop being post rock and roll here, what specifically do you mean here, not challenging it, but there are a number of different depictions of what and when rock and roll was.

 

Are we looking for the birth of soul here or are we looking for it's foetus? I'm not quite sure? Good thread. ;-)

Regards,

Dave

I suppose it is the foetus, but with a view to answering the holy grail question of what specific day in the calendar did soul music breathe its first.  

I have always taken the very simplistic linear view of Gospel-Doo-Wop-Soul with Blues and Jazz running concurrently and providing influences to differing levels at differing stages, but this looks like there might have been something between Gospel and Doo-Wop, or maybe something independent?

It would be interesting to understand some of the biggest names of the 40’s, in addition to Andy's names, and obviously was anything before Andy's dates for a Black audience. And if their background was purely gospel or other things also. Happy to do some independent research if people throw up some names.

Andy/Robb K/John any views?

Sure some of this will be in books I have, but it would be good to at least add the outer ring of the jigsaw in here

Edited November 20, 2013 by jocko

[Dave Moore]

Sonny Til & the Orioles were well established before the end of the 40's and are credited as one of the groups that helped set the doo-wop standard. They were still going & making 'up to date' records into the late 60's (THOUGH they were followers and not leaders in setting trends by then).

Lots of early to mid 50's groups maintained a cutting edge sound into the 60's (& some even into the 70's) .... the likes of Lee Andrews & the Hearts, Hank Ballard & the Midnighters, the Meadowlarks / Larks plus Little Anthony & the Imperials spring to mind. The Drifters were around for years & years as well but as totally different outfits adopted the name, I don't think they can really count.

Hi John,

All good stuff this...

I've always assumed that the origins of doo wop lay back in the 40s with The Ink Spots, The Mills Brothers et al and that the torch was passed as it were to The Ravens, The Orioles, Billy Ward and whole host of other 'bird' groups.

Apart from The Orioles, I'd have placed the other groups you highlight, after that timeline first put forward. Hence my comment/use of the word 'defining'in relation to the doo wop era. eg. Lee Andrews' mid 50s Rainbow and Gotham recordings for Kae Williams, for me at least are great examples of the black, group harmony sound, that would eventually assume the doo wop tag, whilst Little Anthony's later outings under the guiding hand of Richard Barrett would for me typify the transitional Doo Wop/Soul golden era. By this stage we'd seen the emergence of the electric guitar and there was no requirement to imitate the instrumentation which is where a lot of the doo wop skills originated from?

I'm by no means an expert in the doo wop genre and have only approached it as a fan in the past really, rather than some investigative angle so I'm hoping to learn some things on this thread if we can keep it going.

Hi Jocko,

My comment about Rock n Roll was based on my belief that the rock n roll era was at it's most significant in the mid 50s. before it was purloined by it's white imitators. I suppose when discussing these genres and their timelines and influences we need to accept that there will have always been artists/groups that were around at the same time periods but making 'peripheral' music that now, with hindsight, sticks out as innovative, progressive or even ahead of it's time. Bit like Northern Soul really eh?

Regards,

Dave

[Roburt]

I think we need input from RobbK or someone with similar knowledge of doo-wop tracks.

I'd personally be more interested in which individual tracks to the overall sound onwards to early soul as I guess it wasn't the output of just one or two groups that progressed things back then.

Lots of times (in the 50's, 60's & 70's) a group would make a certain type of track coz that's what their record company wanted from them, rather than because it was what the individual group members had a burning desire to cut ..... but of course that wasn't always the case.

THEN AGAIN, it could have been a singer / songwriter moving a sound forward (guys like Curtis Mayfield & Smokey Robinson spring to mind) or it could have been a producer that was moving forward with the acts he was working with. I'd say there's no one easy simple answer to this question.

Edited November 20, 2013 by Roburt

[Dave Moore]

Well, I suppose someone has to take the plunge music wise so here we go.... 

 

I've selected these tracks to cover the time period we're initially looking at as they were all reasonably successful and so presumably were regarded as up there with the best examples of what was en vogue at the time of release? Not scientific I grant you but at least it'll kick-start any discussion.  All four of the groups are regularly held up as outstanding exponents of the vocal group sound that would later be identified as 'doo wop' so if there is a sound progression to the soul sound then I'd thin k it viable that these groups were part of that 'linkage'.

 

The development of soul was, in my opinion at least, also influenced by factors outside of just the 'musical sound' but they can maybe be added into the mix once we get the initial starting point established?

 

Regards,

 

Dave

 

 

Ink Spots - 1940

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wp2Hwi9qM48

 

Orioles - 1948

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1q7xXXVoCY

 

Lee Andrews - 1956

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWjmITH4nao

 

Little Anthony 1958

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zS6fLgOvu7k

[Roburt]

I'll have to throw the Dells 1956 version of "Oh What a Night" into the mix for consideration.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1ozQT8yQXA

Edited November 20, 2013 by Roburt

[Dave Moore]

I'll have to throw the Dells 1956 version of "Oh What a Night" into the mix for consideration.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1ozQT8yQXA

Good Call.

Regards,

Dave

[Robbk]

Sonny Til of The Orioles was around from the mid '40s through the early '70s.  His Orioles groups changed.  That group started recording in 1948.  In 1953, his original Orioles split from him.  He gathered together another group ("New" Orioles, and signed with VJ Records.  His later Orioles with Charlie Parker Records and RCA had some personnel changes (but he sang with them in each of the 3 decades.  The Robins started in 1949, and some of their members sang into the '60s with The Robins or The Coasters (after they split apart in late 1955.  Roy Brown had records that sold reasonably well in The early '60s, so he would qualify.  The Ink Spots were still singing and recording in the early '60s, so they should be added.  I know a LOT of groups that started in 1950-52, who would just miss the cut.  I don't know if Clyde McPhatter or Jackie Wilson were singing in the '40s/  They just miss the cut.  Jackie had a Blues single out on JVB records in 1952, Clyde started with The Dominoes in 1951.  Jimmy Ricks' Ravens were singing in the late '40s, and he had minor hits backed by The Ricketeers in the late '50s, and The Raves in the early '60s.  I think that The delta Rhythm Boys were still gigging and doing some recordin in the early '60s, so they would qualify.  The Five Keys started with Aladdin Records in 1951, so they would just miss the cut.  Tony Middleton started with The Willows in 1953.  I don't think he was singing professionally n the '40s.  Joe Turner sang and sold records in all 3 decades.  But then, many Blues singers did.  The Blues had a much longer popular lifespan than Black Harmony group singing.  As stated above Lee Andrews just missed the cut, starting out on Rainbow Records in 1952.  The Clovers started in 1949, so they would qualify, as they sold records into the late 1960s. The Flamingos, Platters and Dells all started in the very early '50s, and so, just miss the cut. 

 

It's kind of arbitrary, to divide the decades by pure numbers because we have ten fingers on our hands.  That causes a big problem, because the Black Harmony groups really started clicking in 1951-53, so hundreds of group members had lots of success during the '50s and '60s, but just missed the '40s.  If you would start mentioning random NS artists, I think you'd be shocked to find out how very many had success in '50s R&B or Black Vocal Group Harmony, in addition to Gospel music (which everyone assumes).

Edited November 21, 2013 by RobbK

[Roburt]

Two venues in Baltimore in April 1948 that had visiting acts on.

The Royal Theatre was featuring the Ravens as their top of the bill act, whilst the Astoria Musical Bar was playing host to jazz outfits like the Gene Redd Trio.

The Ravens would have been touring at the time on the back of their 1st big hit "Write Me A Letter". If this was a doo-wop track it was a very primitive one.

Edited November 21, 2013 by Roburt

[Robbk]

"Write Me A Letter" was "Jump Blues", a style that was around from the late 1930s through the early mid '50s.  I wouldn't term it primitive in terms of "Doo Wop group harmony", as it wasn't a building block towards the latter.  You may think it a building block of Soul or Funk Music, and in that sense, I suppose terming it "primitive" would make some sense. 

[Heikki]

Hi Robb, how are you?

 

The Delta Rhythm Boys recorded still in Finland in the 70s. 

https://youtu.be/0UM3lpJOM6c

 

There are many examples, if on YouTube you write "The Delta Rhythm Boys Suomi"

 

Best regards

Heikki

[Mike Lofthouse]

 I followed Black American music through the '60s.  Unfortunately, I couldn't learn to like it in the '70s, when it happened, and still can't stand most of '70s Soul to this day.  I won't even get into post '70s.

Hi Rob -when did you realise you didn't like 70's was it a gradual thing or was there some notable releases or events ?   and how do you feel about so many of the artists that straddle both decades ?  I always liked new releases so the 70's was my era as 60's were oldies to me.  Now with the benefit of hindsight I would say my preference is slightly towards 60's but I often can't decide!. Interested to get a view from the US and from someone buying at that time.  Mike

[Roburt]

As "Write Me A Letter" sounded so old fashioned (outdated) to me I decided to give "Please Believe Me" a listen ....

..... AND YES ... there sound had progressed in that short period. That Ravens track .........

Edited November 21, 2013 by Roburt

[Biggordy]

A group often credited with being one of the "proto-soul" pioneers as such are the Five Royales.  Their big hit "Think" was a massive influence on James Brown amongst others (he went on to cover it of course).

[Geoff]

While nothing is set in stone I was always under the impression that It's Too Soon To Know by the Orioles was considered the first doowop record, although I'd agree it's in the style of the Ink Spots with the high tenor lead vocal and the middle part being sung by a baritone.

 

There were plenty of doowop hits in the US charts during the 50s but there was a big revival in the early 60s with many records hitting the charts but the British invasion ended it. I used to hear them played on Radio Luxemburg and very occasionally on Saturday Club on the Light Programme. At that time I used to buy various record papers, Record Mirror, Disc and the New Musical Express and can remember the record reviewers slating them, but then they generally didn't like the stuff I liked anyway. If anyone is interested it's worth checking out the Doowop box sets on Rhino.

 

I find the roots of our music fascinating, one man's R&B record is another person's early soul track. Also find the roots of rock'n'roll interesting too. All these things go back much further than you would first think.

[Robbk]

Hi Robb, how are you?

 

The Delta Rhythm Boys recorded still in Finland in the 70s. 

https://youtu.be/0UM3lpJOM6c

 

There are many examples, if on YouTube you write "The Delta Rhythm Boys Suomi"

 

Best regards

Heikki

Ha! Ha! Ha!  That's so funny to hear The Delta Rhythm Boys singing in Finnish.  I've heard them sing in Swedish before.  I bought "The Delta Rhythm Boys in Sweden" in 1956 (Jubilee red plastic 1966 release).  It's funny to me.  My brother lived in Oulu for 2 years (attended university there).  He lives in Stockholm now.  I have lots of friends in Finland through my Disney comic book work.  I work for Sanoma Uitgevers (Dutch Disney Comics)-our parent company is Sanoma (Finnish firm)-So I sometimes work with them.  When I next come to Finland, I will let you know ahead, so we can arrange a meeting.

[Robbk]

Hi Rob -when did you realise you didn't like 70's was it a gradual thing or was there some notable releases or events ?   and how do you feel about so many of the artists that straddle both decades ?  I always liked new releases so the 70's was my era as 60's were oldies to me.  Now with the benefit of hindsight I would say my preference is slightly towards 60's but I often can't decide!. Interested to get a view from the US and from someone buying at that time.  Mike

I turned off the radio in late 1966, having to listen to 8-10 songs or so, before finding one I liked.  I still liked a lot of Motown cuts up to about 1970 or so.  During the early '70s, I only liked a handful of cuts (up to about 1972).  After that, you could count the songs I like on your hands (a couple Spinners on Atlantic, Maxine Nightengale, "I'm Doing Fine Now" by New York City.  1967,'68 and '69 were already not all that much to my liking.  My favourite years in music with, by far, my most favourite songs were 1964, 1953, 1965, 1954, and 1963.  The acoustics and instrumentation of recordings in the '70s are not to my liking.  Most of the songwriting and arrangements are not to my liking.  It's just way too "new" sounding,  I like the late '30s through the late '60s.

[Frankie Crocker]

Totally out of my depth here, but given the Doo Wop sound was produced in many locations such as Chicago, Detroit, Pittsburgh etc, surely it might prove difficult to track down the origins unless done on a geographical basis.

Blundering on, I like the songs of Paul Robeson such as Ol' Man River from Showboat (1936). Could this artist rank amongst the earliest soul singers to have crossed over to a white audience or given the harmony- singing movement a bit of a nudge?

[Geoff]

Totally out of my depth here, but given the Doo Wop sound was produced in many locations such as Chicago, Detroit, Pittsburgh etc, surely it might prove difficult to track down the origins unless done on a geographical basis.

Blundering on, I like the songs of Paul Robeson such as Ol' Man River from Showboat (1936). Could this artist rank amongst the earliest soul singers to have crossed over to a white audience or given the harmony- singing movement a bit of a nudge?

Not sure if Paul Robeson could be classed a soul singer although I've liked the records by him that I've heard, he must have influenced Jimmy Ricks, lead singer of the Ravens, because they recorded Old Man River in 1947 and had an R&B hit with it.

[Heikki]

Ha! Ha! Ha!  That's so funny to hear The Delta Rhythm Boys singing in Finnish.  I've heard them sing in Swedish before.  I bought "The Delta Rhythm Boys in Sweden" in 1956 (Jubilee red plastic 1966 release).  It's funny to me.  My brother lived in Oulu for 2 years (attended university there).  He lives in Stockholm now.  I have lots of friends in Finland through my Disney comic book work.  I work for Sanoma Uitgevers (Dutch Disney Comics)-our parent company is Sanoma (Finnish firm)-So I sometimes work with them.  When I next come to Finland, I will let you know ahead, so we can arrange a meeting.

Hi Robb!

 

Okay, just let me know when you arrive.  The group was quite popular over here, and especially the bass singer, Lee Gaines, who died here in Finland in 1987 and is buried here.

 

Best regards

Heikki

[Robbk]

"If I didn't Care" by The Ink Spots, "Old Man River" by The Ravens, "It's Too Soon To Know" by The Orioles,  "Sixty Minute Man" by The Dominoes, The Glory of Love" by The Five Keys, "Golden Teardrops by The Flamingos, "Gee" by The Crows, "Sh-Boom" by The Chords, "Honey Love" by The Drifters, "Rocket 88" by Jackie Brenston, "Sincerely" by The Moonglows, "A Thousand Miles Away" by The Heartbeats, "Earth Angel",  by The Penguins were all very influential records.

[Dave Moore]

Hi Robb,

When you say 'influential' whom do you mean were influenced? I know that later groups like Little Anthony and The Imperials, Frankie Lymon and The Teenagers were influenced by earlier doo wop groups but was it the sound they were replicating or did they actually include anything outside the four/five part harmonies that happened naturally.

I've always believed that Richard Barrett was probably the major force in the transitional time of early soul music. As part of The Valentines etc he was at the heart of the doo wop era and by the 70s had taken a group of girls (The Chantels), from that particular era and created the sound of the Three Desgrees. I'm aware that it's a narrow and focused point in that I'm only using NY/Philly as a yardstick.

I think another influential factor was the sheer amount of black vocal harmony groups vying for a deal at the time. This was surely the time when black musicians/artists could actually see that pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. On a national level I mean. The second Migration had taken place, millions of black people were now part of the industrial complex and with that came openings and opportunities. With Bandstand just around the corner, the seeds were sown for an explosion of music in all directions and once Frankie Lymon took the show by storm, the genie was out of the bottle. Groups like The O Jays. The Isleys, etc were a direct result of these factors I think.

Another question I had was about the relationship between Rock n Roll and Doo wop. Obviously the artists themselves could interchange between the genres but what would you consider the peak of the doo wop era and what was it competing with in terms of other music?

Great thread.

Regards,

Dave

[jocko]

Hi John,

All good stuff this...

I've always assumed that the origins of doo wop lay back in the 40s with The Ink Spots, The Mills Brothers et al and that the torch was passed as it were to The Ravens, The Orioles, Billy Ward and whole host of other 'bird' groups.

Apart from The Orioles, I'd have placed the other groups you highlight, after that timeline first put forward. Hence my comment/use of the word 'defining'in relation to the doo wop era. eg. Lee Andrews' mid 50s Rainbow and Gotham recordings for Kae Williams, for me at least are great examples of the black, group harmony sound, that would eventually assume the doo wop tag, whilst Little Anthony's later outings under the guiding hand of Richard Barrett would for me typify the transitional Doo Wop/Soul golden era. By this stage we'd seen the emergence of the electric guitar and there was no requirement to imitate the instrumentation which is where a lot of the doo wop skills originated from?

I'm by no means an expert in the doo wop genre and have only approached it as a fan in the past really, rather than some investigative angle so I'm hoping to learn some things on this thread if we can keep it going.

Hi Jocko,

My comment about Rock n Roll was based on my belief that the rock n roll era was at it's most significant in the mid 50s. before it was purloined by it's white imitators. I suppose when discussing these genres and their timelines and influences we need to accept that there will have always been artists/groups that were around at the same time periods but making 'peripheral' music that now, with hindsight, sticks out as innovative, progressive or even ahead of it's time. Bit like Northern Soul really eh?

Regards,

Dave

Sorry Dave, forgot about this. Need to concentrate on this music side, really fascinating stuff and dead interesting so far, off to check some of the recommendations tonight. And thanks for clarification of the R&R bit, on thinking about it I think my timelines for DooWoop are out of sync, due to my zero knowledge, hence my rock and roll question, but I agree with your later statement the rock and roll connection is equally fascinating.

I am going to dig out some of my unread books on this and report back, also if anyone is familiar with the wider Ace catalogue would be interesting if any relevant CD’s are around, must have a browse of my Ace catalogue, although it’s a bit out of date, Maybe Santa Ady will have a surprise for me in his stocking at 100 club Xmas party!

[Dave Moore]

I'm a little snowed under at the minute in Manchester, but I'm determined to return to this thread and pick peoples brains as much as I can. 

 

Regards,

 

Dave

[jocko]

Okay the three books I have, all unread are

Ever reliable Mr Pruter, but looks like Chicago only, as you would expect

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Doowop-Chicago-Scene-Music-American/dp/0252065069/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1385760732&sr=8-3&keywords=robert+pruter

the much praised Mr Shaw

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Honkers-Shouters-Golden-Years-Rhythm/dp/0020617402/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1385760802&sr=8-1&keywords=arnold+shaw+honkers

and the one I think I will start with

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Group-Harmony-Black-Urban-Rhythm-ebook/dp/B00E1XZJTE/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1385760866&sr=8-1&keywords=goosman+group+harmony

Not heard of this chap, can only imagine someone has recommended it to me, it starts of promising with the Blurb of telling the story of the Orioles and myriad other vocal groups in the post war era.

I have another couple of non music projects that are sitting crying out for attention, but will try and summarise anything I read.

[Roburt]

.............. If you take the defining doo wop era as post Rock n Roll ............

Dave

An extract from a chapter of my (upcoming) book ...... this chapter deals with the 1940's / 50's entertainment scene in Baltimore ..............

.... APRIL 1952 .... the Comedy Club was staging a really strong line-up in the Rene Hall Trio plus Dog Bagby (both acts still to enjoy their best commercial record successes). Doc Bagby was an interesting guy. Back in 1948, he had helped pen a tune titled “Rock The Joint” which had become a R&B hit in 1949. The song was cut yet again in 1952 by Bill Haley. Using a lick lifted from the song, “Rock Around The Clock” was written in 1955 and once again Bill Haley recorded the song. The rest is history.

 

Taking the 1948 Wynonie Harris hit "Good Rockin Tonight" as it's inspiration, "Rock The Joint" had been penned. The song was offered to Gotham recording act Jimmy Preston & his Prestonians. They cut the song in Philly and had a big R&B hit with it in September 1949. I guess this recording's history is typical of those times, The Jimmy Preston version sold to (mainly) a black audience and it was only later that it became known to white music fans. When discovered by the white audience it was credited as one of the first 'Rock & Roll' records. Haley's version was dubbed a rockabilly cut as he changed some words and cut it in more of a C&W influenced style.