Has Sandy Golden On Masterpiece Been Booted?

[Pete S]

Hi Ian, 

 

I did read the title….it's "Has Sandy Golden on Masterpiece been booted?"

 

The answer it seems is no.

 

We then go into this great big conspiracy theory about Soussan, bootlegs, Synthesisers (can't hear them myself but they were used in music in the 60s) etc. etc. None of it is anything other than conjecture and wishful thinking and crude "dot joining".

 

 

 

Can't believe you can't hear the synthesisers on When We're All Alone Tonight.  And yes, some people had them in the 60's but they cost the equivalent of thousands and thousands of pounds back then, so a tiny LA studio probably won't have had one.  It's an old backing track which has been overdubbed in the 70's.

[Wiggyflat]

I have an article somewhere about Simons love of synthesizers ...will try and find it.

[KevH]

Oh f**k it then .....a soussan boot lol  ....................with us lot back in the day wanting  uptempo dancers (nothing changes lol)...seems an odd thing to  boot

 

Like i said earlier,not if its a tax scam record, with Bobby Sanders at the helm and Soussan knocking out tunes,straight off the tape onto styrene,hardly any overheads.Jobs a good un.

 

Pure Soul source conjecture i might add.

[Guest AGrail]

Fascinating stuff, the bottom line here is there is no box of these floating or dribbling out. The record pictured here was found two years ago in a collection of a deceased collector. The best part of the collection was pretty run of the mill, there was a Pheonix release in amoungst them. I did ask Col his opinion on this one and he was kind enough to post the admitedly crap pics up here. (I guessed a new bod pitching up on this forum wouldn't be much appreciated) 

I'd love to see an image of the copy in Amsterdam or hear from anyone with a copy of this.

[Rupert]

well steve  have you made him a offer for it yet, you know you need it

 

           

 

Well done…..…...I'll have to tell the Mrs. It's her all time favourite and top want! 

[Steve G]

well steve  have you made him a offer for it yet, you know you need it

 

Hi Rupert, correction, my Missus needs it……  She's been after a copy for a long while….

Edited November 2, 2013 by Steve G

[NEV]

I thought neckender has a copy too ?

[Chalky]

As far as I know Searling still has the one he got from Rob Marriott, Ion's copy.

[purist]

I'm in the "it's a real copy" camp, but just for fun want to point out that much is being made of the credits, about how these names have other productions known so that somehow legitimises the record..
The problem with that is I seem to remember names turning up on boots, something like Mick Smith or was it Ginger Taylor. Sorry my memory isn't what it was, seem to remember being shown it on some sort of Motown unreleased boot was it?? (maybe Wilko had a hand in it, he was a great one for keeping the fun in going out)

[Ian Dewhirst]

There's a few more, I'll try and remember them...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ian D 

[Pete S]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ian D 

 

Also:

 

Christy Allen - Walk Tall Like A Man

Lee Andrews - I've had it

Gene Chandler - Mr Big Shot

Mark Johnson - The beautiful place

Superlatives - I still love you (first boot)

Stanley Mitchell - Get it baby

[Ian Dewhirst]

Also:

 

Christy Allen - Walk Tall Like A Man

Lee Andrews - I've had it

Gene Chandler - Mr Big Shot

Mark Johnson - The beautiful place

Superlatives - I still love you (first boot)

Stanley Mitchell - Get it baby

 

Yep, good stuff. I'd forgotten about most of those. I'm pretty sure they were all within a 2 year period, I think, from early '74 to '75 was when those particular fonts and designs were used (and I worked that out by using your Black Music summary page). It obviously doesn't prove anything, other than there's a great chance that the record used the same typesetter, got mastered at the same location as the Bob Relf and other boots and was no doubt manufactured at the same pressing plant probably circa '74/'75. 

 

Ian D 

[Quinvy]

Fascinating thread. Still find it hilarious that so many collectors can't accept that minty originals can still turn up. Have you seen the size of the U.S.A.?

Congratulations to the gentleman who has found it. Great record.

Just a thought for the conspiracy theorists amongst us. I was chatting with a friend today, we were discussing the new 3D printers. Apparently, someone has made a perfect copy of the Pink Floyd album Dark Side of The Moon. Apart from being a complete waste of vinyl, it does make you wonder just what will be possible in the near future. Scary.

[Guest gordon russell]

Vinyl can be tested  as to ...wether it,s been recently pressed...wether the vinyl is from the 60's ect ect.....had a friend at cambridge university   who could shave off a sliver of vinyl     and absolutely verify when it was formed....

[NEV]

Fascinating thread. Still find it hilarious that so many collectors can't accept that minty originals can still turn up. Have you seen the size of the U.S.A.?

Congratulations to the gentleman who has found it. Great record.

Just a thought for the conspiracy theorists amongst us. I was chatting with a friend today, we were discussing the new 3D printers. Apparently, someone has made a perfect copy of the Pink Floyd album Dark Side of The Moon. Apart from being a complete waste of vinyl, it does make you wonder just what will be possible in the near future. Scary.

All very interesting stuff ,but isn't it about time the shy guys with copies put the guy out of his misery and punch up the relavent details ?

Just pm him and then he can lock the post ,to save us all the drama

[Mick Holdsworth]

...  I seem to remember names turning up on boots, something like Mick Smith or was it Ginger Taylor.

 

John, The SOS boot of the Vibrations - Cause You're Mine, had the writing credit down as J. Manship and someone else. Maybe that's what you're thinking of.

Cheers

Mick

[Quinvy]

All very interesting stuff ,but isn't it about time the shy guys with copies put the guy out of his misery and punch up the relavent details ?

Just pm him and then he can lock the post ,to save us all the drama

Maybe they already have Nev, and we aren't aware of the fact?

[Guest AGrail]

Maybe they already have Nev, and we aren't aware of the fact?

Still in misery over here

[Jerry Hipkiss]

John, The SOS boot of the Vibrations - Cause You're Mine, had the writing credit down as J. Manship and someone else. Maybe that's what you're thinking of.

Cheers

Mick

...and the Joker boot of Peanut Duck was credited to Gilly and Jilly, published by Butch Music! :-)

[Ian Dewhirst]

Can't believe you can't hear the synthesisers on When We're All Alone Tonight.  And yes, some people had them in the 60's but they cost the equivalent of thousands and thousands of pounds back then, so a tiny LA studio probably won't have had one.  It's an old backing track which has been overdubbed in the 70's.

 

Actually Pete, that was a Moog that was used on "Satisfy Me Baby" wasn't it? In fact, it's probably one of the earliest instances of a Moog being used on a Soul record along with "Reflections" - Diana Ross & The Supremes from the same year. So I reckon they did have access to a synthesizer, so it might not necessarily be a 70's overdub........

 

Ian D 

[Ian Dewhirst]

Fascinating thread. Still find it hilarious that so many collectors can't accept that minty originals can still turn up. Have you seen the size of the U.S.A.?

Congratulations to the gentleman who has found it. Great record.

Just a thought for the conspiracy theorists amongst us. I was chatting with a friend today, we were discussing the new 3D printers. Apparently, someone has made a perfect copy of the Pink Floyd album Dark Side of The Moon. Apart from being a complete waste of vinyl, it does make you wonder just what will be possible in the near future. Scary.

 

Of course minty originals can and do still turn up. The weird thing about this one, apart from it's similarity to a batch of early 70's boots from the same mastering facility and the same plant, is that it never turned up earlier than the 80's. Given the Bobby Sanders connection and all the other co-incidences with records with similar labels that were bound for the UK, then how come this slipped the net? Bobby was obviously keenly aware of the UK market via Soussan and because we were the only ones who were buying his older stuff, so given the fact that he recycled the Younghearts recording so many times and allowed Soussan to press the Tempos and the Sweets, it's almost inconceivable that a song which recycled a Sweets backing track wouldn't have surfaced earlier dont'cha think? Or am I being far, far too cynical? 

 

Ian D 

[Steve L]

Of course minty originals can and do still turn up. The weird thing about this one, apart from it's similarity to a batch of early 70's boots from the same mastering facility and the same plant, is that it never turned up earlier than the 80's. Given the Bobby Sanders connection and all the other co-incidences with records with similar labels that were bound for the UK, then how come this slipped the net? Bobby was obviously keenly aware of the UK market via Soussan and because we were the only ones who were buying his older stuff, so given the fact that he recycled the Younghearts recording so many times and allowed Soussan to press the Tempos and the Sweets, it's almost inconceivable that a song which recycled a Sweets backing track wouldn't have surfaced earlier dont'cha think? Or am I being far, far too cynical? 

 

Ian D 

 

No one would have given it a second listen in the 70s Ian, …. would they?

[Steve G]

Of course minty originals can and do still turn up. The weird thing about this one, apart from it's similarity to a batch of early 70's boots from the same mastering facility and the same plant, is that it never turned up earlier than the 80's. Given the Bobby Sanders connection and all the other co-incidences with records with similar labels that were bound for the UK, then how come this slipped the net? Bobby was obviously keenly aware of the UK market via Soussan and because we were the only ones who were buying his older stuff, so given the fact that he recycled the Younghearts recording so many times and allowed Soussan to press the Tempos and the Sweets, it's almost inconceivable that a song which recycled a Sweets backing track wouldn't have surfaced earlier dont'cha think? Or am I being far, far too cynical? 

 

Ian D 

 

Hi Ian, I am missing something….where are you getting the Bobby Sanders connection with Sandy Golden from?

Edited November 3, 2013 by Steve G

[Ian Dewhirst]

Hi Ian, I am missing something….where are you getting the Bobby Sanders connection with Sandy Golden from?

.

Bobby Sanders represented Soultown Records and originally released The Sweets' "Something About My Baby" which has the same backing track as Sandy Golden. As Pete said earlier, Bobby controlled the master tapes, hence the connection.   

 

Ian D 

[Ian Dewhirst]

No one would have given it a second listen in the 70s Ian, …. would they?

 

Nope. Far too slow. 

 

Ian D 

[Davetay]

Nope. Far too slow. 

 

Ian D 

You lot speak for yourselves.

Too slow for the big venues, but local clubs not a prob.

I was playing stuff like Bonnie Blanchard "You're The Only One", Joe Tex "All The Heaven (A Man Really Needs)"  in the 70s, both went on to big in later years.

Edited November 3, 2013 by davetay

[Rupert]

Dave you.ll confirm this.on a fb page kev draper said he had a few of these when he was doing his lists.

[Pete S]

Actually Pete, that was a Moog that was used on "Satisfy Me Baby" wasn't it? In fact, it's probably one of the earliest instances of a Moog being used on a Soul record along with "Reflections" - Diana Ross & The Supremes from the same year. So I reckon they did have access to a synthesizer, so it might not necessarily be a 70's overdub........

 

Ian D 

 

I was reading about this last week and the cost of the instrument was astronomic so very few studios would have had one.  And it's not a moog anyway Ian...

[Pete S]

No one would have given it a second listen in the 70s Ian, …. would they?

 

Well they listened to similarly tempo'd things like I Go To Pieces...

[Pete S]

Hi Ian, I am missing something….where are you getting the Bobby Sanders connection with Sandy Golden from?

 

See, I knew you never read my posts...

Edited November 3, 2013 by Pete S

[Steve G]

.

Bobby Sanders represented Soultown Records and originally released The Sweets' "Something About My Baby" which has the same backing track as Sandy Golden. As Pete said earlier, Bobby controlled the master tapes, hence the connection.   

 

Ian D 

 

 

See, I knew you never read my posts...

 

 

Sorry been asleep lads ……of course original A side is a re-cycled Sweets backing track. But who wrote it fellas? Get your copy of The Sweets out and check…..have a look - it might be on Bobby Sanders label but the Sweets are not a Bobby Sanders penned songs, but it's that chap Nate Fortier again who wrote "Satisfy me baby" / "Something about my baby"……

Edited November 3, 2013 by Steve G

[Simon T]

when did singles start to get released in stereo and was it very common in the 60's?

[Pete S]

when did singles start to get released in stereo and was it very common in the 60's?

 

Stereo singles were pretty scarce in the 60's I think.

[Ian Dewhirst]

I was reading about this last week and the cost of the instrument was astronomic so very few studios would have had one.  And it's not a moog anyway Ian...

 

Agreed. The original Moogs would fill a normal size studio and weren't transportable, so I reckon the tapes would have to go the Moog and have the Moog parts dubbed on to the master. However, I'm pretty sure that the crazy sound on the Sweets is a Moog. If not, what instrument would you suggest it is? 

 

Ian 

[Ian Dewhirst]

Sorry been asleep lads ……of course original A side is a re-cycled Sweets backing track. But who wrote it fellas? Get your copy of The Sweets out and check…..have a look - it might be on Bobby Sanders label but the Sweets are not a Bobby Sanders penned songs, but it's that chap Nate Fortier again who wrote "Satisfy me baby" / "Something about my baby"……

 

LOL......but since Bobby Sanders controlled Soultown and hence the master tapes, it would be he that was in control of the backing track to "Something About My Baby".

 

Ian D 

[Chalky]

LOL......but since Bobby Sanders controlled Soultown and hence the master tapes, it would be he that was in control of the backing track to "Something About My Baby".

 

Ian D 

Assuming he did own the masters of course.

[Steve G]

LOL......but since Bobby Sanders controlled Soultown and hence the master tapes, it would be he that was in control of the backing track to "Something About My Baby".

 

Ian D 

 

More speculation Ian……LOL. He may have licensed it and not owned the master tape.…..

Edited November 3, 2013 by Steve G

[Reforee]

Just a few points to throw into the pot

There are a number of Masterpiece labels, one I believe is a reissue label, so IF Soussan was involved he may of copied one them?

Baby Washington had something on Masterpiece as well not sure if same label though.

The Masterpiece lettering typeface is similar to the Masterpiece label out of Greenville & Columbia South Carolina circa 1964, so back then it seemed the style was widespread.

Sandy Goldens other known release on The Pheonix label is also a Nate Fortier item and is out of California so it might be safe to say the Masterpiece 45 is defo California based?

As a footnote one release on Masterpiece (out of South Carolina) was The Confidentials with a release date 1964. This also came out on Mod Art in 1974 so a gap of 10 years and a different part (Chicago) of the USA,so it could well be that the backing track on Sandys release may well of had an updated production from its original and came from a different part of the USA for all we know.

IMHO I think it's out of California and is an original pressing as more would of surfaced over time if it was a boot? As no other label has turned up with this track on you have to take the Masterpiece issue as an original first release whether SS was involved or not.

I also think both her known releases are 1964/65 so before SS got involved and if the record was rare before he got too California he may never of come across one to boot in the first place.

There will be a story behind it which will link it too it's rarity....... Perhaps using the backing track was unlicensed and the record pulled or indeed the label name itself being a clash with another established Masterpiece label and a law suit ensued?????.

Just my thoughts

Dave H.

[Ian Dewhirst]

More speculation Ian……LOL. He may have licensed it and not owned the master tape.…..

 

Well, Soussan got the instrumental from the masters when he re-issued the Sweets, so not much speculation old bean......

 

Ian D 

[Ian Dewhirst]

Assuming he did own the masters of course.

 

He did. He's always controlled the Soultown masters. He was still licensing Soultown repertoire as late as 2002......

 

https://www.discogs.com/Various-California-Soul/master/404082

 

https://soundboutique.blogspot.co.uk/2010/08/sweet-stuff-freaky-to-you.html

 

Ian D 

[Jerry Hipkiss]

Agreed. The original Moogs would fill a normal size studio and weren't transportable, so I reckon the tapes would have to go the Moog and have the Moog parts dubbed on to the master. However, I'm pretty sure that the crazy sound on the Sweets is a Moog. If not, what instrument would you suggest it is? 

 

Ian 

My thought process went...60's California...Beach Boys...Good Vibrations...the Theremin...cheaper than a Moog! Possible?

 

https://www.ehow.co.uk/video_6381037_playing-songs-theremin.html

[Steve G]

He did. He's always controlled the Soultown masters. He was still licensing Soultown repertoire as late as 2002......

 

https://www.discogs.com/Various-California-Soul/master/404082

 

https://soundboutique.blogspot.co.uk/2010/08/sweet-stuff-freaky-to-you.html

 

Ian D 

 

Ian all that shows is that he controlled some of the masters, not necessary all of them, the rare record world is full of 'walk ins' who kept the rights to their masters….Am not going to continue arguing with you though, you obviously want the Sandy Golden 45 to have a Soussan connection for some reason…..Barrie Waddington says the first copy was found in a small shop on the outskirts of LA which hadn't been seeded with any other Soussan's 45s...

Edited November 3, 2013 by Steve G

[Ian Dewhirst]

Mmm. This is really really weird. I was just looking up Nate Fortier on Discogs only to find a copy of the Great Expectations record which sure looks like a recent re-press/boot to me LOL...

 

 

It even has the obligatory typeset error - prt. 1. Someone in L.A. has been busy re-pressing records!

 

Anyone wanna take any bets now?

 

Ian D 

[Chalky]

He did. He's always controlled the Soultown masters. He was still licensing Soultown repertoire as late as 2002......

 

https://www.discogs.com/Various-California-Soul/master/404082

 

https://soundboutique.blogspot.co.uk/2010/08/sweet-stuff-freaky-to-you.html

 

Ian D 

 

 

Many have wrongly claimed the rights when they don't hold the rights.  The above links are not necessarily proof, you of all people should know that.  The Spencer Wiggins being one example of a label owner wrongly selling a license for something he didn't own.  By all accounts not everything he did was above board.

[Ian Dewhirst]

Ian all that shows is that he controlled some of the masters, not necessary all of them, the rare record world is full of 'walk ins' who kept the rights to their masters….Am not going to continue arguing with you though, you obviously want the Sandy Golden 45 to have a Soussan connection for some reason…..Barrie Waddington says the first copy was found in a small shop on the outskirts of LA which hadn't been seeded with any other Soussan's 45s...

 

It's not the Soussan connection Steve, it's just that I can tell a dodgy pressing when I see one and that Masterpiece pressing does not look like an original record to me. Please see the Great Expectations post above to clarify that someone in L.A. is messing around with re-presses. How many more hints do you need?

 

Ian D 

[Ian Dewhirst]

Many have wrongly claimed the rights when they don't hold the rights.  The above links are not necessarily proof, you of all people should know that.  The Spencer Wiggins being one example of a label owner wrongly selling a license for something he didn't own.  By all accounts not everything he did was above board.

 

Chalky, Bobby Sanders has always had the Soultown masters whether he owned 'em or not. Everybody claims their old masters back for sure, but Bobby Sanders controlled Soultown with an iron fist believe you me....

 

Although, in light of that Great Expectations re-press and the fact that Bobby Sanders died a few years back, it looks like someone else has got busy...

 

Ian D 

Edited November 3, 2013 by Ian Dewhirst

[Steve G]

Mmm. This is really really weird. I was just looking up Nate Fortier on Discogs only to find a copy of the Great Expectations record which sure looks like a recent re-press/boot to me LOL...

 

 

It even has the obligatory typeset error - prt. 1. Someone in L.A. has been busy re-pressing records!

 

Anyone wanna take any bets now?

 

Ian D 

 

 

What makes you think it's a reissue rather than a local release? It also came out on a yellow Phoenix label before Phil La….Surely you are not relying ot the "rare soul bible" discogs for your information Ian? I hope not!

[Ian Dewhirst]

What makes you think it's a reissue rather than a local release? It also came out on a yellow Phoenix label before Phil La….Surely you are not relying ot the "rare soul bible" discogs for your information Ian? I hope not!

 

Oh come on Steve. You honestly don't think something dodgy is going on? How come it's suddenly appeared as a re-issue with the original blue The Phoenix label then? Is this another one that we somehow managed to miss over the last 45 years? Must be 'cos it's not in Manship or Brown's guides either. Strange that.

 

Anyway, it's been good fun this thread. I am firmly of the belief that there is something very very dodgy about the Sandy Golden record. I've seen similar things happen with other records - all strictly behind-the-counter stuff at certain record shops in the U.S. where the owner will wait until no one else is around and then pull out a stash of rare or obscure records which are obviously brand new. 

 

Time will tell no doubt....

 

Ian D 

[Guest AGrail]

I understand there are only a handful of 'known' copies of this 45? 149 posts into this topic there has only been one mention of a copy in Amsterdam coming to light recently although no further info as yet on that one...

[Guest gaz thomas]

Stereo singles were pretty scarce in the 60's I think.

 

 

Yes, not even on demos due to there not being any stereo radio capability.

 

with the inception of FM Stereo radio in the very late 60s I believe that is why you see same side demos - but mono and stereo versions on each side.

One side for FM Stations, other side for AM  (Kenny Smith GAR Demo for example)

 

Styrene was last produced by Coloumbia records plant very early 90s so I believe, before it closed

Shelly and Monach being two other important plants that finished producing it by the end of the 70s

 

I am under the impression that producing styrene 45s was a big company factory service at the time, big boys doing lots of cutom work, but only a few plants

not like the many little local vinyl shops accross the usa

 

given that most of the west coast produced 45s at the time were pressed at monarch in styrene ....And I presume this is a west coast record

Where was this pressed in vinyl ?

 

What other custom press 45s from the West coast have turned up in vinyl ?

I have late 50s early 60s pressed monarch 45s on vinyl - lions girl of the world is an example

 

My experience with collecting 60s and 70s indies is that it is common for east coast to be vinyl, West coast is usually styrene.

Unless its Okeh or a Major label

But then Parkway always used monarch for west coast 45s

And of course all the Detroit indies that used columbia and shelly, so detroit styrene 45s

but most local detroit facilitys produced vinyl

 

So where was the Sandy Golden 45 pressed ? Why is it so rare ?

Its was obviously pressed over 30 years ago and is a proven rare 45

It was not bootlegged for the northern scene at the time !

 

the record is an enigma !!!!

 

Probably a good time for those who do have old copys to take note of deadwax info, etc

Edited November 4, 2013 by gaz thomas