Professionals On Groove City - New Bootleg?

[Premium Stuff]

New one on me this.

 

Anglo-American selling it - so I guess Martin K is the Canadian link - Soul Tribe, Toronto, Canada.

 

Also presuming it is not legit and is a bootleg - or am I wrong on that?  Apologies to those concerned if I am.

 

Cheers

 

Richard

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/281183351097?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

Edited October 15, 2013 by Premium Stuff

[Sunnysoul]

New one on me this.

 

Anglo-American selling it - so I guess Martin K is the Canadian link - Soul Tribe, Toronto, Canada.

 

Also presuming it is not legit and is a bootleg - or am I wrong on that?  Apologies to those concerned if I am.

 

Cheers

 

Richard

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/281183351097?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

 

Description is in the ebay listing :

 

BRAND NEW CANADIAN REISSUE - FIRST TIME EVER ON VINYL FOR THE INSTRUMENTAL

CONDITION: MINT -

Edited October 16, 2013 by sunnysoul

[Dave Moore]

I think Martin actually owns the rights to this Richard? He and Tim reissued it on the Connoisseur label in UK back in the mid 90s (with an alternative take if I remember correctly. I thi nk it was all part of the Solid Hitbound stuff Martin purchased

Regards,

Dave

[boba]

i would guess that don davis owns the master?

[Robbk]

i would guess that don davis owns the master?

Don is deceased.  His son inherited the master.  But I don't know whether or not he sold off all or part of his father's master tapes.

[Premium Stuff]

Description is in the ebay listing :

 

BRAND NEW CANADIAN REISSUE - FIRST TIME EVER ON VINYL FOR THE INSTRUMENTAL

CONDITION: MINT -

 

Yes, I read that before posting  but it does not say it is a legitimate licensed release does it?

 

Weren't Tim B and Martin K behind that  Maple Street Detroit Dynamite CD that is reputed to be all bootlegged tracks?

 

Cheers

 

Richard

[Dave Moore]

Martin was definitely radio interviewed (I think by Richard S) in connection with the Solid Hitbound tapes/material he obtained. (I think whilst Don was still alive?)  He unearthed things like Edwin Starr - Has It Happened To You", Sharon Soul (?)  Girl Crazy and LV Johnson - Recipe, Joey Kingfish I Wont Hurt You.. alongside alt takes of some known things.

 

I think I'm remembering correctly. This would have been around 96/97 maybe?

 

Surely other people remember all this?

 

Regards,

 

Dave

 

PS. Just found a piece written by Tim B in Manifesto that may well verify at least some of the above:

 

Probably the most interesting for me is Rob Moss’ item on Ed Wolfrum and his observations, as a studio engineer, on Detroit recordings of the sixties. Don Davis used to use United Sound studios quite a lot back in those days and at Goldmine, we hit a deal with Don to release material he owned, a lot of stuff came from there — a situation Goldmine financed in terms of retrieving material from old masters. In fact stuff keeps emerging rather mysteriously from what would appear to be that source and I’ll say no more, suffice it to say that we obviously weren’t offered all the tracks mastered at the time. It is also rather disappointing, nay astounding to learn that Wolfrum has a ‘library’ of unreleased material which Rob claims ‘will probably never gain a release’. Hands up those that think that to be an acceptable situation! If this is true then Wofrum is doing no-one a favour. And whilst legal situations may be murky who is really going to complain or be precious about it? If anything the producers of said music probably have legal entitlement anyway. I’ll always remember Davis stating that he did not sell Solid Hitbound productions to Ric Tic or Golden World either outright or in perpetuity, and certainly not to Berry Gordy!
 

[Mrtag]

The vocal side is a different take to the original

[Premium Stuff]

Martin was definitely radio interviewed (I think by Richard S) in connection with the Solid Hitbound tapes/material he obtained. (I think whilst Don was still alive?)  He unearthed things like Edwin Starr - Has It Happened To You", Sharon Soul (?)  Girl Crazy and LV Johnson - Recipe, Joey Kingfish I Wont Hurt You.. alongside alt takes of some known things.

 

I think I'm remembering correctly. This would have been around 96/97 maybe?

 

Surely other people remember all this?

 

Regards,

 

Dave

 

PS. Just found a piece written by Tim B in Manifesto that may well verify at least some of the above:

 

Probably the most interesting for me is Rob Moss’ item on Ed Wolfrum and his observations, as a studio engineer, on Detroit recordings of the sixties. Don Davis used to use United Sound studios quite a lot back in those days and at Goldmine, we hit a deal with Don to release material he owned, a lot of stuff came from there — a situation Goldmine financed in terms of retrieving material from old masters. In fact stuff keeps emerging rather mysteriously from what would appear to be that source and I’ll say no more, suffice it to say that we obviously weren’t offered all the tracks mastered at the time. It is also rather disappointing, nay astounding to learn that Wolfrum has a ‘library’ of unreleased material which Rob claims ‘will probably never gain a release’. Hands up those that think that to be an acceptable situation! If this is true then Wofrum is doing no-one a favour. And whilst legal situations may be murky who is really going to complain or be precious about it? If anything the producers of said music probably have legal entitlement anyway. I’ll always remember Davis stating that he did not sell Solid Hitbound productions to Ric Tic or Golden World either outright or in perpetuity, and certainly not to Berry Gordy!

 

 

Yes, remember all that stuff coming out Dave - and probably means it's legit as it was a Groovesville thing 

 

Cheers

 

Richard

[Ady Croasdell]

I think Martin actually owns the rights to this Richard? He and Tim reissued it on the Connoisseur label in UK back in the mid 90s (with an alternative take if I remember correctly. I thi nk it was all part of the Solid Hitbound stuff Martin purchased

Regards,

Dave

I'm pretty certain that the first deal was a five year license not a purchase. Unfortunately with Goldmine it was all so murky and they put out so many deliberate untruths that the bits they may have done legally are in doubt too. I had not heard that they had re-licensed the material and don't know if I'd believe it without evidence anyway

[Pete S]

The single they put out on Goldmine was an alt take, this is an alt take, on the cd's they are alt takes, and none of them are as good as the original 45

Edited October 16, 2013 by Pete S

[Dave Moore]

I'm pretty certain that the first deal was a five year license not a purchase. Unfortunately with Goldmine it was all so murky and they put out so many deliberate untruths that the bits they may have done legally are in doubt too. I had not heard that they had re-licensed the material and don't know if I'd believe it without evidence anyway

 

Yep, fair enough Ady, I'm not privy to any info so was just relaying what I heard from Martin and Tim via radio interviews etc at the time. Tim was right about one thing though...some fantastic stuff came from Ed Wulfrum at the time eh?

 

Regards,

 

Dave

[Ady Croasdell]

Yep, fair enough Ady, I'm not privy to any info so was just relaying what I heard from Martin and Tim via radio interviews etc at the time. Tim was right about one thing though...some fantastic stuff came from Ed Wulfrum at the time eh?

Regards,

Dave

Definitely and some great music was discovered and legitimately released. I was just pointing out the original deal was a license. Some of it was iffy though, I'm not sure if a couple of the Detroit label stories should have been in the deal just because they were recorded at Universal. Edited October 16, 2013 by ady croasdell

[Soul-slider]

I'm not going to lie, I will buy one.

[Premium Stuff]

I'm not going to lie, I will buy one.

 

Because of the instrumental?

 

It's already available on reissue vinyl and CD

 

Just interested 

 

Cheers

 

Richard

[Soul-slider]

The instrumental + it looks good, nice repro label. I'll only go a tenner though.  

[Premium Stuff]

The instrumental + it looks good, nice repro label. I'll only go a tenner though.  

 

Fair enough - the one I posted above is £16.00 with 4 bidders at the mo.

 

Why would you bid on such a record at auction - given that it says it's a new re-issue? Would you not know there were a few hundred?

 

Cheers

 

Richard

[Soul-slider]

You're right Richard, there are 2 more on ebay already starting at 9.99. 

[Soul-slider]

i remember when the Silky Hargraves Dearborn re-issue/boots (whatever) were doing the rounds a couple of years ago, £30 to start with then they dwindled down to about a fiver!  

[Premium Stuff]

i remember when the Silky Hargraves Dearborn re-issue/boots (whatever) were doing the rounds a couple of years ago, £30 to start with then they dwindled down to about a fiver!  

 

There's only one way to own that Silky Hargraves record ... on an original Dearborn multi-coloured issue in a lovely (clashing!) company sleeve 

 

Cheers

 

Richard

[Soul-slider]

...alas I only have the sleeve 

[Benji]

i remember when the Silky Hargraves Dearborn re-issue/boots (whatever) were doing the rounds a couple of years ago, £30 to start with then they dwindled down to about a fiver!  

 

Didn't know that. Are they counterfeits? And if so, what's the difference. Might buy one of them just to give my recordless Dearborn sleeve some use

[Soul-slider]

There you go....

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NORTHERN-SILKY-HARGREAVES-KEEP-LOVING-ME-LIKE-YOU-DO-/161126129506?pt=UK_Records&hash=item2583dd9f62

[Soul-slider]

This one BIN..

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NORTHERN-SOUL-SILKY-HARGRAVES-KEEP-LOVING-ME-inst-/181153958782?pt=UK_Records&hash=item2a2d9e0b7e

[Phild]

There's only one way to own that Silky Hargraves record ... on an original Dearborn multi-coloured issue in a lovely (clashing!) company sleeve 

 

Cheers

 

Richard

Nah. You need to have the white demo to sit alongside it. If only for the fact that (very occasionally) you can play both sides back to back

[Mrtag]

The single they put out on Goldmine was an alt take, this is an alt take, on the cd's they are alt takes, and none of them are as good as the original 45

 

Spoke with Tim earlier today and he says there are about five different takes of this on the tapes!! so guessing they have the rights to the masters.

[Benji]

I can't recall the orig 45 take of the Professionals being reissued on any kind of format.

 

I agree with Pete, none of the reissued takes (if there were more than one) sound as good as the 45 one.

[boba]

Spoke with Tim earlier today and he says there are about five different takes of this on the tapes!! so guessing they have the rights to the masters.

 

having or even owning the physical tapes doesn't mean that they purchased the rights to them.

[Frankie Crocker]

Not convinced this should be released legally or otherwise. Hope it will not flood the local soul nights and kill the track off at the major venues. I think the team behind it should state how many copies have been pressed to minimise controversy - £10 is reasonable for a record that may exist in sizeable quantities. Is this another Johnny Watson on Valise or Four Voices on gold Voice - I hope not? As mentioned earlier, the original version is the best version so why muck around with out-takes? Definitely not a record to bid on and one strictly to be played in the house methinks...

[Robbk]

Martin was definitely radio interviewed (I think by Richard S) in connection with the Solid Hitbound tapes/material he obtained. (I think whilst Don was still alive?)  He unearthed things like Edwin Starr - Has It Happened To You", Sharon Soul (?)  Girl Crazy and LV Johnson - Recipe, Joey Kingfish I Wont Hurt You.. alongside alt takes of some known things.

 

I think I'm remembering correctly. This would have been around 96/97 maybe?

 

Surely other people remember all this?

 

Regards,

 

Dave

 

PS. Just found a piece written by Tim B in Manifesto that may well verify at least some of the above:

 

Probably the most interesting for me is Rob Moss’ item on Ed Wolfrum and his observations, as a studio engineer, on Detroit recordings of the sixties. Don Davis used to use United Sound studios quite a lot back in those days and at Goldmine, we hit a deal with Don to release material he owned, a lot of stuff came from there — a situation Goldmine financed in terms of retrieving material from old masters. In fact stuff keeps emerging rather mysteriously from what would appear to be that source and I’ll say no more, suffice it to say that we obviously weren’t offered all the tracks mastered at the time. It is also rather disappointing, nay astounding to learn that Wolfrum has a ‘library’ of unreleased material which Rob claims ‘will probably never gain a release’. Hands up those that think that to be an acceptable situation! If this is true then Wofrum is doing no-one a favour. And whilst legal situations may be murky who is really going to complain or be precious about it? If anything the producers of said music probably have legal entitlement anyway. I’ll always remember Davis stating that he did not sell Solid Hitbound productions to Ric Tic or Golden World either outright or in perpetuity, and certainly not to Berry Gordy!

 

Golden World was already shut down (1966) when Solid Hitbound Productions ceased operations(1968).  guess that Ed Wingate was still operating Ric Tic for a few months, but Don Davis didn't sell the masters to him or to Berry Gordy.  The Groovesville masters were Davis' alone, the Revilot/Solid Hit masters were Davis' AND LeBaron Taylors, together.  They would have shared the proceeds.  I had heard that after Davis' death, his son was approached by would-be buyers of all the masters he still controlled (I guess he had sold some off (to Stax, and later, some to Martin Koppel?).

[boba]

Robb: when did Don Davis pass away? I was corresponding with Graham F. recently and he though that Don was still alive. There definitely wasn't any noise here about it. Thanks in advance for the info.

[Sunnysoul]

Golden World was already shut down (1966) when Solid Hitbound Productions ceased operations(1968).  guess that Ed Wingate was still operating Ric Tic for a few months, but Don Davis didn't sell the masters to him or to Berry Gordy.  The Groovesville masters were Davis' alone, the Revilot/Solid Hit masters were Davis' AND LeBaron Taylors, together.  They would have shared the proceeds.  I had heard that after Davis' death, his son was approached by would-be buyers of all the masters he still controlled (I guess he had sold some off (to Stax, and later, some to Martin Koppel?).

The sight of Berry Gordy at Golden World on consecutive weekends, set tongues wagging that he was showing an interest in the studio.

It was rumoured that he was feeling uneasy about the quality that was flowing from West Davison and had approached Ed Wingate with an offer.

This may not be exactly true, however, as Gordy had to outbid a Bob d'Orleans consortium to wrestle the studio from Wingate and Bratton. This suggests that the studio had been on the open-market.

In September 1966 Gordy landed the prize by way of a reputed $1 million bid. Whether that was the figure or not will probably remain conjecture.

As well as owning the studio, Motown now owned Myto Publishing and the contracts of Edwin Starr and JJ Barnes.

It is astonishing to think that Wingate and Bratton were only based there for eighteen months.

Bob d'Orleans, who helped establish and run the studio, was out of a job and began to work with Sidra. 

Mike McLean, Motown's Chief Engineer, gave an opinion of Bob's work in an open letter to the Soulful Detroit forum.......

 

 

..................

 

 

Future product was now released exclusively on the Ric-Tic label. All other labels ceased to exist.

A couple of Edwin Starr's 45's were released through to February, possibly suggesting that this was part of the deal.

The Ric-Tic label changed from it's simple red and black design to a more complex blue and gold pattern.

Myto Publishing no longer appeared on Ric-Tic discs and was replaced by Ric-Tic publishing, Wingate Publishing and in a couple of instances Illinois Publishing.

Remarkably the style of music being released would change too, with the old abrasive up-tempo style being replaced by a mellower, sound.

Headquarters were now based in Ed's home on Edison where a basement studio was used for rehearsals and demos.

Recordings were now scheduled at United Sound Systems on Second Avenue and Magic City Studios on Grand River.

Ric-Tic ran for another eighteen months with a fraction of the manpower.

Administrators : JoAnne Bratton

 

Producers : Ed Wingate-Al Kent-Hermon Weems-Willie Garrett

 

Arrangers : Mike Terry Edited October 17, 2013 by sunnysoul

[Robbk]

So, the18 months after Sept. 1966, would have taken Ric Tic to about early April, 1968.  Solid Hitbound probably shut down a little before then (a few months?).  Thus, Davis' comment that he didn't sell out to Wingate makes a little sense.  I think Davis may have crossed paths with Wingate after Ric Tic ended.  We would have known that Gordy didn't buy out Davis and Taylor's Solid Hitbound Productions or Davis' Groovesville Music, because they weren't absorbed into the Jobete Music or Motown Records catalogue (as were the Golden World/Ric Tic/Myto Music properties).

 

This is very interesting, as Gordy DID buy out Wingate (and through Wingate, Wilbur Golden's Correc-Tone, who had sold out to Wingate), Thelma, Artie Fields(Top Dog), and Harry Balk (most of his local Detroit competition, who also recorded using his own Motown musicians).

 

Only Jack Ashford's Pied Piper Productions and Solid Hitbound/Groovesville remained outside, with Mike Hanks' D-Town/Wheelsville USA being forced out of business.

[Benji]

No As mentioned earlier, the original version is the best version so why muck around with out-takes? 

 

Just a thought but maybe the 45 take isn't on any of the tapes?

[Pete S]

I can't recall the orig 45 take of the Professionals being reissued on any kind of format.

 

I agree with Pete, none of the reissued takes (if there were more than one) sound as good as the 45 one.

 

I can, it's on the All Night Oldies WVON FM bootleg lp with John & The Weirdest, Ty Karim, Seven Souls, Court Davis, Deadbeats on one side and a pile of modern tosh on the other side.

[jocko]

[quote name="Dave Moore" post="1998418" timestamp

 

Hands up those that think that to be an acceptable situation! If this is true then Wofrum is doing no-one a favour. And whilst legal situations may be murky who is really going to complain or be precious about it? If anything the producers of said music probably have legal entitlement anyway. Gordy!

[Dave Moore]

Great idea, I am sure labels trying to licence legally would complain. Sorry but this seems to have been, and still be, Goldmines ethos, publish and be damned, or in this case get rich.

I find that statement very difficult to see any reason in at all.

 

I think it's a valid point that Tim makes that maybe you've missed because of the anti bootleg stance that most of us adhere to.

 

When unissued material is located and deemed worthy of release, often the owners of the material don't see it as a commercially worthwhile venture and are happy to simply ignore it. I doubt whether Ed Wulrum owns any of the material but is the guardian of it due to his studio responsibilities. In this case then we, the fans are denied it when we'd be happy to pay for it. I think another great example is the Motown stuff that has limited vinyl appeal but for many of us more avid fans of "The Sound Of Young America" we are simply ignored or the eventual release of the CD sets etc don't appeal. some of the bootlegged studio sessions would never have seen the light of day had it not been for the determination of some folks. 

 

It's a fine line I'll grant you, but I don't think any artists/producer made music for it to be safely locked away for generations after. It's a quandary and I suppose collectors who despise bootlegging (as I do), could be called hypocritical but I see it as two separate issues, although intrinsically linked.

 

Regards,

 

Dave

[Calvinlee]

I can't recall the orig 45 take of the Professionals being reissued on any kind of format.

 

I agree with Pete, none of the reissued takes (if there were more than one) sound as good as the 45 one.

sure the professionals was pressed on one of those wigan casino 25th anniversary with sam ward sister lee on the other side

[Pete S]

sure the professionals was pressed on one of those wigan casino 25th anniversary with sam ward sister lee on the other side

 

I think it was, I think it was still an alt version though?

[Benji]

I think it was, I think it was still an alt version though?

 

Yes.

[Calvinlee]

I think it was, I think it was still an alt version though?

I couldn't tell you I don't own one must say I fell for that one ebay scrolling down spotted it thought hang on looked down the page a boot  will probably get hammered all over the place now which is a shame as I appreciate hearing the original

[Mrtag]

I can, it's on the All Night Oldies WVON FM bootleg lp with John & The Weirdest, Ty Karim, Seven Souls, Court Davis, Deadbeats on one side and a pile of modern tosh on the other side.

 

I believe it was also done on a 7" wigan anniversary set!

[Mrtag]

sure the professionals was pressed on one of those wigan casino 25th anniversary with sam ward sister lee on the other side

 

Sorry just seen your response

[Mrtag]

I couldn't tell you I don't own one must say I fell for that one ebay scrolling down spotted it thought hang on looked down the page a boot  will probably get hammered all over the place now which is a shame as I appreciate hearing the original

 

Glad I sold My original last year!!

[Raremusicdirect]

I think it's a valid point that Tim makes that maybe you've missed because of the anti bootleg stance that most of us adhere to.

 

When unissued material is located and deemed worthy of release, often the owners of the material don't see it as a commercially worthwhile venture and are happy to simply ignore it. I doubt whether Ed Wulrum owns any of the material but is the guardian of it due to his studio responsibilities. In this case then we, the fans are denied it when we'd be happy to pay for it. I think another great example is the Motown stuff that has limited vinyl appeal but for many of us more avid fans of "The Sound Of Young America" we are simply ignored or the eventual release of the CD sets etc don't appeal. some of the bootlegged studio sessions would never have seen the light of day had it not been for the determination of some folks. 

 

It's a fine line I'll grant you, but I don't think any artists/producer made music for it to be safely locked away for generations after. It's a quandary and I suppose collectors who despise bootlegging (as I do), could be called hypocritical but I see it as two separate issues, although intrinsically linked.

 

Regards,

 

Dave

 

 I agree Dave, there is much hair splitting that can be done.......for me an alternate take on a vinyl 45 seems ok, as its the first time for it on vinyl, but if its a straight re-issue would rather see it on cd. Either way, vinyl re-issue 45s do in my opinion devalue original 45s and venues that play original 45s, because the tune becomes less "special" to hear. I know many don't care, but that's how it is for me........

[Mrtag]

I agree Dave, there is much hair splitting that can be done.......for me an alternate take on a vinyl 45 seems ok, as its the first time for it on vinyl, but if its a straight re-issue would rather see it on cd. Either way, vinyl re-issue 45s do in my opinion devalue original 45s and venues that play original 45s, because the tune becomes less "special" to hear. I know many don't care, but that's how it is for me........

Agree 100%

[Quinvy]

I agree Dave, there is much hair splitting that can be done.......for me an alternate take on a vinyl 45 seems ok, as its the first time for it on vinyl, but if its a straight re-issue would rather see it on cd. Either way, vinyl re-issue 45s do in my opinion devalue original 45s and venues that play original 45s, because the tune becomes less "special" to hear. I know many don't care, but that's how it is for me........

That last paragraph is very profound and could be used as a fitting epitaph for the death of the rare soul scene.

[Robbk]

Robb: when did Don Davis pass away? I was corresponding with Graham F. recently and he though that Don was still alive. There definitely wasn't any noise here about it. Thanks in advance for the info.

I looked up biographies on Don Davis, and found to my pleasant surprise, that none of them listed him as deceased.  Sorry, apparently, I had that very wrong.  I remembered a thread we had on Soulful Detroit on which someone had stated that he had been negotiating with Don Davis' son. over the rights to release CDs using some Groovesville master tapes of previously unreleased masters.  I guess  I just assumed that Don had died, otherwise he would have been negotiating that deal himself.  But, I see no reason why he couldn't have delegated that job to his son.

[Dave Pinch]

 I agree Dave, there is much hair splitting that can be done.......for me an alternate take on a vinyl 45 seems ok, as its the first time for it on vinyl, but if its a straight re-issue would rather see it on cd. Either way, vinyl re-issue 45s do in my opinion devalue original 45s and venues that play original 45s, because the tune becomes less "special" to hear. I know many don't care, but that's how it is for me........

i agree too kev..but these days it only seems to push the price of originals further up and not devalue them as in the 70s & early 80`s

[Dave Pinch]

Not convinced this should be released legally or otherwise. Hope it will not flood the local soul nights and kill the track off at the major venues. I think the team behind it should state how many copies have been pressed to minimise controversy - £10 is reasonable for a record that may exist in sizeable quantities. Is this another Johnny Watson on Valise or Four Voices on gold Voice - I hope not? As mentioned earlier, the original version is the best version so why muck around with out-takes? Definitely not a record to bid on and one strictly to be played in the house methinks...

the diffence between the johnny watson / four voces gold is that they were said to be original 60`s issues..albeit briefly before they were rumbled..at least this is a pressing from the off